Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?

Subject: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:35 PM

You all have never steered me wrong before, so...a new tech question. I am at the point where I want to format and print a small book. I have MS Works, which will print horizontally so that the book then becomes 11" X 8" when opened up, BUT try as I might, it does not print the correct page number on the backside, so that when it is assembled and one turns the pages, they are not in sequence. I don't want to work with this program, it's just something I ahd a messed around with, so....any suggestions? I'd prefer shareware, but would spend the money for something worthwhile.

Thanks, ya'll,

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:41 PM

I think, unless someone comes up with a quick fix, that you want MS Word...someone undoubtedly has an old copy lying around they would give you... mg

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 May 02 - 05:48 PM

MS Publisher, maybe? Unless MS word will automatically set half-sized pages to the right page and the right number... which I personally haven't figured out yet. *g*

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:25 PM

If you do linux there are some old, FREE unix programs that are specifically for that kind of thing. Tex and Latex. As they say, though, the learning curve's a little steep.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:26 PM

QuarkXPress on a Mac would be the choice of many...

Seriously, Publisher would do that and is easy to use. I don't know the cost though.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:29 PM

Well, over the years I've produced a number of A4/A5 leaflets using Word. In fact, and this may be a matter of practice, I find Word easier to use than MS publisher.

If its a book you trying to publish then the answer may lie with your printer. If its sequential page numbering then you need full duplex printing facility.

If you are trying to print off a pamphlet A4 folded down to A5 then Word, or Works, set page to landscape, set format to Two equal columns ( or 4 if your being flash ).

Do your text and art work as seperate pages and save. New file as for printing. Cut and paste as follows.

Oh by the way there is no need to use the automatic page numbering. Yes print page, page only then add the page numbers by hand.

Sheet 1. pages 1 & 4, Sheet 2 pages 2 & 3. Print out then run through your duplicator. Turn the printed sheets over, then being extreamly careful to get the direction and orientation of the print correct run through the print under your second master.

I publish the printed off masters using a Ricograph.

Kat ( or anyone else ) - if you would like to PM me your E-Mail address I can send you some examples.

Incidently if you do use Word. Putting text/graphics in text boxes makes arranging and editing easier.

If your doing flyers/leaflets use a non seriff type such as Ariel rather than Times Roman. It comes out cleaner and easier to read. And I am loath to go smaller than 11 point type. The whole point of a leaflet/flyer is to grab the attention of the reciepient between picking it up off the doormat and putting it in the Garbage Can.

Headlines 16 point or higher, Times Roman works, athough I prefer Impact, or Ariel Condensed. Mixing to many types confuses - and don't be affraid t use graphics, and White Space !!!

But profficiency requires practice, and more practice.

Incidently if your still using an old Gesetnor or similar (the old wax stencils) then a dot matrix printer, with the ribbon removed will cut then lovely - but it does limit the type you can use.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 May 02 - 06:32 PM

Kat, How small is your book? And are you self-publishing? That is, are you going to have it printed and bound and do your own distribution?

I ask these questions because one of the best systems used by professional printers and publishers for the books you see at the store is in fact entirely free. The system is called TeX (pronounced tech) and, together with Lamport's LaTeX macros, is possible for a mere mortal to learn to use.

The system isn't WYSIAYG (what you see is all you've got), it's based on a text markup system that lets you focus on the structure and content of your book while it takes care of the details. It includes much better typographic details (e.g., proper ligatures for fi, ffi, etc.) than you'll find in a word processor intended for business correspondence and documents.

Your working tool is a text editor rather than a word processor. This will overcome the problems most word processors (i.e., MS Word) have with documents more than a few pages long. You "compile" the text to produce a DVI (device independent) file and display or print it using a DVI driver. All software is freely available although it's fair to say that it's use is not trivial.

The TeX/LaTeX system will provide beautiful pages all uniformly gray with micro adjustments made in kerning and leading so each page has a uniform appearance and there are no ugly word gaps in justified type.

If you intend to have your book commercially published, they may also appreciate having the TeX/LaTeX source available as it can greatly reduce typesetting costs.

If any of this sounds interesting, drop me a note and I'll give you more information.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:15 PM

My personal opinion would be a Mac and Pagemaker - the most recent version. (Sorry, can't remember the version number.) It was built with printing press ideas in mind, and uses the language of printers. It will do anything you want. An example: That's what was used to print the San Francisco newspaper after the earthquake, when the printing presses were down.

Probably more that you need if you are only doing one book. In that case, I would type on something like Word (or almost anything else) then find someone who has Pagemaker and load it in there for final editing.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:23 PM

Kat -

The trick of laying out in landscape, 2 columns, is really all you need - in any program that will produce the page content you want.

Take some scrap paper, and "fold up" the book the way you want, and number the pages. Unfold it, and paste your pages in the same order as your "fold up." Hand number the pages in your "makeup" document as needed (and turn off the "auto pagenumbers."

Most printers will print "even pages" or "odd pages" and will print "reverse page order" so you can easily figure out a way to run one side through, turn the stack over as needed, and print the other side - after you have put the "stuff" in the right order in your document.

Most decent programs that will do automatic "folio pagination," which is what you appeared to be asking for, will require significantly more "learning-curve" effort than is justified here - aside from the cost.

Sit down with a stack of paper, and fold a few sheets, and it should become clear.

Other consideration - using folded pages makes the page edges come out uneven so they're hard to turn. Don't put too many pages in a bunch.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:35 PM

A PPS footnote:

Where did the idea come from that Word won't handle anything but small documents?

I routinely use it for 300 pages, and have run up to 800 pages, with text/graphics combined as needed.

It does, perhaps, bog down if you try to do master pages and linked files, but....

John

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From:
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:46 PM

Gareth, I do that myself.

Kat, his idea is what I use and I've done up to booklets of 124 pages. (Christmas Carols and songs)

John in Kansas! Wow, I haven't done a project that large, but I agree, it should be just as easy. Simple planning in advance does the ticket there.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 02 - 10:55 PM

George - Not my idea, it came from an agents training course ran by one of the UK political parties.

Lyle - I know that Mac has been around a long time, but at the turn of the 19th Centuary ???? *BG*

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 May 02 - 11:29 PM

You guys are great! I know I've said that before, but I really mena it! I always get such an education when it comes to one of these types of questions!

Gareth, just sent you a PM, but on reading your post a second time, I think I will try what you suggest, combined with JohninKS's suggestion. If I can make a mock-up and physically see how it needs to be laid out I can easily do it that way.

I do have Word, just not as familiar with it as the rest of the stuff I have. The book is not large, just under 200 written pages, not full at that, but still needs to be that many, plus photographs (when I get them unpacked) or illustrations. This book will be a small thing of my own and will give me some practise before finishing and printing up the one I am doing of my dad's memoirs.

Thanks bunches,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 02 - 05:56 AM

There is a product, FinePrint 2000, that is available in an evaluation form and is not too expensive when purchased. This appears as a printer on your PC and you can then print to it from anything. There are several options in it, one of which is to automatically sort things into the right order for an A5 booklet.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 May 02 - 08:45 AM

Kat, I'd be happy to do the job for you and post it back as a Quark file on a PC-readable CDRom or email it as a pdf file (readable/printable via Acrobat). I'd be happy to include fonts, and work in American keyboard mode, so you could just pass on the file to whoever is going to do the printing. Or you may want to print it off and give it to the printer as camera-ready. (Best to let the printer specify what he needs.)

If you want to go this route, PM me and I'll give you an email address where you can send the text.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 May 02 - 09:21 AM

Kat -

If your book is running to 200 pages, be aware that you can't fold that many sheets and get anything close to usable.

Programs that do folio pagination are based on the premise that the "big sheet" will be folded so that it can be cut to separate the actual pages - with tthe pages stacked in order.

Unless you have access to a very sturdy printer's shear, this cutting can be nearly impossible. A typical "office" paper cutter "isn't going to cut it." (is that a pun?)

You probably could fold 3 or 4 sheets together, without cutting the "spine," and then stack the groups (of 6 or 8 pages) reasonably well.

If you are going to cut to half-A pages before "binding," and if you're going to cut and stack them yourself, you only have to worry about 4 pages per sheet. Set up your "document" so that book page 2 is left column, book page 3 is right column, on document page 1. Make document page 2 as Book page 4 in left column, and book page 1 in right column. Print "duplex" so that document page 2 is on the back of document page 1.

Repeat the same "relative order" on through the book.

2,3:4,1 then 6,7:8,5 then 10,11:12,9 then 14,15:16,13 etc.
You do not need a "duplex" printer to print both sides of the page. All you have to do is print "even pages" and then put the sheets back in and print "odd pages."

Most(?) Laser printers print on the side that faces up in the feed tray, and the paper comes out "face down," with the pages in order. You would select "print even pages" and "print in reverse page order" for the first pass. Put the stack back in and "print odd pages" with "print in normal page order" to finish.

Most(?) inkjet printers print on the side that faces down in the feed tray, and the pages come out face up (so the ink can dry before the next page hits it) and will thus be stacked in reverse page order in the output tray. Some of them "default" to "print reverse page order" - i.e. print the last page first, so that the pages will come out with the front page on top, so you need to look at the one you're using.

A 200 page book is actually pretty large for "home binding." Heavy duty staplers can hold that many pages together, but the pages will be hard to turn. You may want to talk to a print shop about getting your book bound before you do your layout. You may find it cheaper to let them print and bind for you; and, if you think you might want to do that, you want to set the book up so that it's easiest for the print shop.

One of the critical issues is making sure that you have a large enough "gutter" for the binding. That means your columns need to be formatted with small margins at the edge of the page, and LARGE margins at the center where the fold/cut will be. Talk to your "bindery" before you do the layout, if you think you may want their help.

If you decide to have a commercial shop print and bind the whole thing, you should not have to worry about setting up the page order. You give them the document file, with the pages in normal order, and they run it through their program to set up the "print layout." It will probably be cheaper if they can print to something like "D" size paper or larger, and fold and cut from there. 64 pages per feedstock sheet is pretty much standard, but not everyone folds the same way before cutting.

If you go to a "copy shop," they will probably want a "master print" (uncut - on A size sheets) that they can run through their copier. They can probably fold the sheets for you, but may or may not be able to cut them.

John John

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From:
Date: 06 May 02 - 11:17 AM

Kat. I agree with John in Kansas. What I do for that large a quantity is break it into more managable chunks. For instance break it into sets of 30 pages or so, then fold them. After they're folded, into these smaller booklets, bind the booklets together onto something more flexible. Or, punch them into a size for the small binders now available.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 May 02 - 11:28 AM

I tried to post this earlier and had problems with my server:

WOW! Thank you all, again, so much, esp. Fionn and "John John.":-)

Fionn, I am familiar with pdf but notice some which I access on the internet cannot be edited, etc. Would I be able to edit what you sent? I'll send you a PM.

John brings up some very good points, though. I think I need to speak with a printer, here, before I do anything else. We just have an injet printer. I do have a monster, industrial stapler and "office cutter" but the "booklets" I've produced before, with an old 286 and my own handcut and paste only ran to about 50 pages at most.

I am going to print this book out, on both sides, regardless of page order and see how it stacks up, so to speak, in the 3D realm. Then I will have more of an idea of which way to go.

This is really helpful and I really appreciate everyone's input. Thanks, again,


kat

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:04 PM

Kat, it would be conventional to get all the editing done in Word (or whatever text processor you use). That gets poured into Quark (still easily editable but you need the program) and from there to pdf.

You're right to sound out a printer, who will be able to say how he wants the pages put up etc. Try to make sure it's one who does digital printing - it's much cheaper for short-run work.

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:08 PM

Thanks, Fionn, I will.

Singing your praises, here, again, all of you!

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Alice
Date: 06 May 02 - 12:35 PM

kat, I ditto that 200 pages is going to be hard to do as a home binding project. If you print it out and just want them to bind it, talk to them first about exactly what they would need so you don't waste alot of time doing what won't work. Presses print large sheets with multiple pages on them that are trimmed down- an entirely different way than what you would do one page at a time on your desktop printer. Whoever binds it for you is the person to go to with your questions.

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 06 May 02 - 08:27 PM

Gareth: Yeah, the 1906 one was printed by Mac O'Earthsplit.

The last one was printed by Mac Apple. (Good one, Gareth!)

Kat & JonInKansas:

I've edited and printed a 950+ page book with Pagemaker. The nice part of Pagemaker is that you can subdivide the pages to fold and prints them in a group ready for folding. You can make those groups any size you wish. Then it is already for pressing, gluing and binding.

It is expensive - around $800.00 I think. That's why I suggested finding someone who has the latest version and having them edit and print. Lyle

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 04:40 AM

Kat--

How many copies of your book are you planning to make? About the smallest run any professional print vendor will do is 5,000; it's not cost-effective for them to set up the presses for any less. If you're looking for "just a few" then definitely go speak with your local Kinko's or other printer before you try setting anything up in ANY program.

Lyle--producing books in Word and PageMaker is how I make my living. I agree they're great programs, and yes, PM will do almost anything you can think of that you want to do, including create PDF files (it's definitely a professional program, and in my opinion easier to learn and use than Quark), but the cost is hardly minor, and the learning curve is considerable.

The latest version, BTW, is 7.0, but to produce one small run of one book (or even two) would be pretty expensive.

Kat, I'd say you've gotten great advice so far and definitely would repeat "talk to your printer FIRST." He's the one that's got to get it to the page, and he should be able to tell you how he wants it done.

Sounds like a fun project. I'd volunteer to help if I weren't mired under with two technical books (one's 600 pages and the other is nearly 1,000) at the moment. Good luck. And BTW, Microsoft Publisher is a lightweight piece of mostly useless trash for any serious purpose that amounts to more than a small brochure. IMHO, of course. Yez gets what yez pays for...

Lin

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 10:22 AM

In re-reading this thread, it occurs to me that one rather significant point has not been made.

Kat: You indicated you intend to include pictures in your book.

[ - Pause to cringe before asking - ] Are you anticipating colored pictures?

Be aware that - if you are intending to have the book professionally printed, using a "plate printing" process, any color may actually make it necessary to use a "real" page layout program. It will also make it much more expensive to print.

It was my initial impression that you want to produce a book for your own use, and for limited distribution to family and friends; and that you would like to do as much of the "production" as possible for yourself.

If this is fairly close to your objective, you can probably do everything you need to do in any recent version of Micro$oft Word. Once you've figured out your original page order problem - which I think you can do now - you can print individual 2-sided sheets, and assemble them to suit yourself.

If you have a color inkjet printer, you can scan your pictures and paste them into Word (you'll probably want to use bitmap, .bmp format) and you should get reasonable results. You can use color this way, although most older inkjets aren't really too crispy.

If you want to make more than a few copies, it becomes impractical to print each one directly. It can also get rather expensive - rule of thumb is about 40 cents per (8.5 x 11) side for the cost of using most inkjets (if you include all the costs). Unfortunately, if you use colored pictures in this way, there is no easy (or cheap) way to get copies made that will retain the color. Color copiers are available, although they may be difficult to find; and the per-page cost adds up rapidly.

If you can do without color - or can limit the color to a separate (appendix?) section, you will get better results with a laser printer, and Kinkos or other similar shops can copy a master (unfolded) set fairly reasonably. You would still have to handle the separate reproduction of the "color" section. A few places (OfficeMax/CopyMax in my area) have PCs you can "rent" with attached laser printers, so you could take your file in and print the master there, (if they have a compatible program installed). A 100 page Word document, all text, would fit on a floppy disk, but each picture you paste in will increase the file size by 15 to 150 KB or more, so it is very easy to get file sizes that dont fit on a floppy. You just make separate "chapter" files.

The reason for the "cringe" over the question of color pictures is that - if you are considering a large enough "production" to require professional offset or other "plate" method printing, the colors have to be separated and printed in separate printing "passes." Word has limited ability to handle this kind of artwork, and in this case you would probably want to find someone who's already done it and "contract out" a final layout, using a "real" page layout program. You don't want to have to learn what needs to be done, much less how to do it in one of the "industrial strength" programs required.

If your "pictures" are mainly photographs, a decent scanner can probably give you "usable" files that you can paste in. If the photos are not "pristine," you may want to find someone with "graphics arts" experience and software to clean them up for you. The "restoration" that can be done fairly simply can look miraculous.

If you have pictures from magazines, old maps, etc., I would strongly advise having someone do some clean up. The "screen dots" will kill ya if you don't. Seriously, you should try a few "test prints," but don't abandon hope if you print mostly "mud with ripples."

Almost any picture can be converted to "gray scale" and printed in black and white, which will greatly simplify (and save $$$ on) your printing and reproducing. For a "historical" book, you can think of it as "period charm."

A specific question asked above: can you edit pdf files. Answer, Yes - if you have Adobe Distiller (about $200), but don't do it. It is much more efficient to edit in the original program and "redistill" (still about $200)a new pdf.

PDF files are the "current standard" format for sending files to a print shop, for them to use in making the "plates" from which a book will be printed. Unless your ambitions for this book are somewhat larger than I think, you should stick to something simpler.

I accidentally signed my last one twice - probably the length deserved it?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 May 02 - 10:56 AM

Seeing as there are so many experiencedand professional people in this thread, I would like to ask some advice too (hope kat doesn't mind a little hi-jacking)...

Every so often, my father has a dream of turning some of his postcard collection of West and East Runton into a small booklet. The format he wishes to use is one that has been used for similar publications. It would consist of about 100 pages of A5 landscape, the majority of each page being occupied by the picture of the postcard which would be approx actual size and a little bit of text below each card. The publication would be in B/W and I would guess he would be looking for a run of about 500.

If he gets the "urge" again, I am quite willing to help and willing to learn the free packages mentioned on Linux and would like to be able to present a printer with something "print ready".

The question is where would I begin and what would I need to consider.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 01:36 PM

Jon Freeman:

As mentioned above, the "printer ready" files produced by Quark, Pagemaker, Framemaker, or TEX, are only needed, or of use, if you are paying for 5,000 or more copies of the "book." (The minimum number will vary with who does if for you, but will be large.)

For a project like you seem to be describing, you need to find a reasonably good scanner to make bitmap, tif, or (if you're really serious) eps "reproductions" of the cards.

Postcards are quite variable in print quality, but nearly all will be "screened" prints, so you need to look into a good graphics program to clean the pictures up. Conversion of color pictures to good "grayscale" is the core skill you need for your project as described.

Once you have "clean" picture files, you can paste them into any good word processor or page layout program. My own choice, as described above, would be Word. My S.O. would do it in Pagemaker, but that's really overkill. Word (any recent version) is sufficient for everything you described.

If you wanted to print the colors, a good "photo quality" inkjet printer will do a reasonable job, and you can pretty much "self-produce" your own book. If you're satisfied with B/W, a laser printer would be "first choice." I would personally opt for a PostScript capable laser printer, and use .eps graphics, but you can do a fine job with bitmaps and a lesser printer. Your real problem though, is to get the pictures in good (electronic) shape.

500 copies is a very short run for a book printing shop. Realistically, unless you can find a "vanity press" publisher that's interested, you're talking about a "copy shop" job. What you need is a good master copy of the unbound pages that can be copied - and a long talk with the shop about the best way to bind them.

A traditional "old saw" in the computer wonk world is "it's in Knuth." Donald Knuth set out many years ago to produce a series of books that would contain "everything known about computing, in five volumes." When he ran into some difficulty with getting his books set up and printed, he diverted his energies to creating "the ideal markup language," which was/is/continues as TEX. Most of the "everything" that's "in Knuth" is in one of the volumes that never (yet) got published.

Incidentally, you know it's a "wonk" language because you can't actually type it correctly (at least not easily in html). It is spelled "Upper Case TAU, Small Cap Subscript EPSILON, Upper Case CHI." When Mr. Knuth started his inventing, that was "very hard" in common word processors, or even in "typesetting" programs, so the name is "symbolic."

Tex is widely used in a few places. Some universities, especially where the computer systems are mainly Unix, do use it routinely for internal stuff. Some academic journals require submittals in Tex, so if you're writing something for, e.g., the Journal of the American Mathematical Association you'll need it. There are a few book publishers that accept Tex documents, but they seem to be mostly limited to "academic" text publishers. For "small" runs such as you anticipate, it will be difficult to find anyone who wants "file input," and less than 10% of those will be able to handle Tex - unless you're at a university.

You might be interested in Tex Users Group, and to keep this on a musical note MusicTex.

I have bookmarked the TEX Home, but it seems not to be responding just now. Clicky posted just in case it comes back.

If you are interested in Tex as an "academic exercise," by all means study it. It should be rewarding. You DON'T need it for what you described - unless and until you have found a printer who wants it.

It is, incidentally, not really correct to say - as appeared above - "Tex will print [insert any description]" Tex is a markup language. You describe, mostly, the "function" of individual "text elements." What prints is determined (like in html) by a Document Type Description which your print shop can change - or simply mess up - to change what your book looks like. Journals like it, because you tell them "this is a section heading." They get to determine that it's 14 point TimesNewRoman, compressed 30 percent, outline font filled grey, underlined, with 5 p leading, when they apply the DTD and print it. Makes for uniformity in the Journal, and they can change "all documents" with a "stroke of the pen" by revising the DTD. The result, however, depends specifically on the DTD used for a given printing.

On the simple stuff: If you have MS Works, you have a word processor, but it is NOT Word. The stripped down WP in Works is a very good program, if it meets your needs; but it has no place in a "real world" word processing environment. You should have at least Word For Windows 6.0 (obsolete), and preferably Word 7.0, Word 97 SR1, Word 2000, or WordXP (grit teeth) if you really want to do anything very sophisticated.

Even if you do decide to use Tex (or Pagemaker, Quark, Framemaker) you probably want to make a layout in Word first (kind of like prepping an html post).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 02 - 01:57 PM

Wow, JohnINKS, thank you for your tiem and knowledge. All interesting and salient points. Jon, no problem, I find it interesting, all of it.

Lin, thank you, too. I really appreciate your input.

I had a few photos of my own which I thought I'd use. A lot of the book(let) has essays on Nature and I've got some beautiful shots to go with them, specifically. I could do gray/greyscale, easily, but so much of what I describe involves colour. I had planned on producing this using a good program I have for brochures/greeting cards, etc. but it doesn't do well with multiple pages and is a lightweight "fluff" program, though fun. Ultimately, I'd like to send it to a few publishers and see if I can get it sold. My thinking was to show them as finished a product as possible...maybe I need to give them more benefit of the doubt and let their imaginations suggest what would look best?

This is really helpful in my figuring out exactly what I want from all of this. Thanks, everyone!

kat

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:33 PM

Kat--

DEFINITELY DO NOT attempt to send a "finished product" to a publisher!!

Sorry to yell, but one of my pet peeves as a layout/production person/editor is that authors always want to "make it pretty." That's the publisher's job; the author's job is to communicate with the reader in the best way possible.

Yes, if a publisher buys your book, you will have a chance to approve how it looks. They should be willing to discuss the layout and typography with you, and will most likely send you a sample of some kind to show you how they want to set it up.

What you submit is your manuscript in the SIMPLEST, CLEANEST layout you can manage. Don't apply a lot of styles, don't worry about whether your headings are all caps, or mixed case, etc. What publishers want is a clean base manuscript to which they can apply their own templates, styles, and expertise. Frequently, it takes me more time to strip out the "pretty" touches than it does to do all the rest of the final preparation for layout. I have even had an author submit a manuscript in ALL CAPS, because it was "easier for his reviewers to read." This was, as you can imagine, a nightmare--the document had to be changed to mixed case by hand, and I'm sure still had things wrong in the "final" product, which was a nice hard-back book otherwise.

So please, if you plan to sell your manuscript, let the publisher do the technical worrying. You just write the stuff, and grit your teeth when your editor wants to change your deathless prose!

Lin

P.S. And good luck with your manuscript. Go find the latest Writer's Market at your local library, and remember to Keep it Simple.

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 02 - 07:02 PM

Thanks, Lin, I understand, no need to apologise.*bg* When I edited my brother's book(lets) I got a good taste of what it's like to be on the other side of the table from a well-meaning "make it pretty" author! Glad it's you and not me! :-)

I subscribe to the online version of Writer's Market and use their online file system to track submissions, etc.

I have always been a good self-editor, according to the publishers I've worked with in the past and have done bare bones simple manuscripts before this. I think this time it's just been cooking in my head and I have to decide if I want to produce just a few for friends and family and/or try to sell it. Since some of those people command a good deal of respect from me and others and "tell it like it is" i.e. tell me they think I should try to sell it, I think I'll get back into my "tickler" file and send out a simple manuscript and see if anyone bites. I know that is a process of patience and perseverance, so...will probably make a few "pretty" mockups, too, just to send out.

I know I've already said it before, but this is incredibly helpful. It's made it obvious to me that there are decisions I need to make, based on new knowledge so kindly and willingly shared by all of you. Thanks, so much!

kat

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Alice
Date: 07 May 02 - 07:11 PM

Kat, I ditto Lin that you should only submit the manuscript as a proposal, not a mock-up of the final book. I also have used both Pagemaker and Quark, and much prefer Pagemaker, since there were far fewer glitches when you go to RIP to output film. For what you are doing, just create the manuscript and propose it with information about the images that you have. One of my last nightmare projects at the printer was having to completely re-do a full color brochure that someone had created in a Microsoft program. All the images were low resolution, had to get the original images files from the photographer, eventually re-setting all the type because it was... well, anyway, it can be a nightmare, so give them the words and let the final printing production be handled by someone who would have to print it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:08 PM

Thanks John.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:32 PM

Kat it is perfectly reasonable to get your book set by a book designer/typesetter and take the finished product to a printer for printing, but the printer would probably want to specify one or two parameters.

I know you don't need to get into the detail of Quark v Pagemaker, but in defence of Quark I found it easy to pick up, after starting on Pagemaker. It is far better supported, with a vast range of powerful extensions available, and version-for-version has outperformed Pagemaker nearly every time for 10-15 years at least, which is probably why it is the industry standard.

Quark's one failing was that it was slow to scope the PC market and create a Windows version, but they've had that sorted for several years now.

Lin may be a bit out of touch on print runs. With digital processes, runs of 400 upwards can be extremely cost-effective, b/w or colour.

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:37 PM

Heck, Jon!

Given the amount of time and effort that 'John in Kansas' took to reply to your question, I have thought you might have managed someting more than a lame 'thanks'

I'll say it on your behalf then:

John, many thanks for your posts, they are very informative, and I for one, really appreciate them. Thank you

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:41 PM

Guest, thanks for your eloquence - you did say what I meant to convey with the simple thanks.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 08:49 PM

Guest -

Jon and I have crossed paths before, and his simple thanks was 'nuff said. I do appreciate your added note, as well.

I believe it was Al Capp (Lil'Abner) who described himself as an "authority on nothing, with opinions on everything." I do trust that people will take what is helpful, and be kind regarding the rest.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 02 - 09:39 PM

There is a product that should be included in this thread, because it so much more reliable than anything Microsoft produces -- I mean Framemaker. It is much more robust in terms of behaving itself in numbering systems for pages, paragraphs and footnotes, where Word is notorious for arbitraily asserting its own schemes on such things whether they are what you want or not. It is much more reliable for building large documents out of smaller subdocuments, where Word is a constant headache when it comes to building compound documents. It is much more flexible in using different page layouts within a single document. It does table and figure numbering much more robustly. It generates postscript files directly, or PDF files directly, or RTF files if you need those, and combines the best features of layout and text management. It is routinely used as the document tool of choice for big outfits who have to deal with big books, and the only reason it is not much more widely spread is because of MS's insane carnivorous marketing techniques.

If you can find someone who can let you have an install CD of version 5 or later, be prepared to start a long love affair with a document program, once you learn to use it. It's a honey of a program.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 11:03 PM

Reposting per Joe Offer comment in help thread. Clone please delete previous duplicate.

Amos -

You are right, indeed, that Framemaker is one of the "powerhouse" layout programs.

Framemaker has actually found its greatest use in the magazine publishing houses, where they have lots of "flashy" inserts, drop caps, frequent color changes and all of the kind of stuff that makes for gaudiness and ostentation - and amuses juvenile readers.

While all of the above does not make for good books, Framemaker is a capable program that can be used as a book publishing tool - if used with some restraint. It does allow you to move "framed elements" around quite easily, but it also gives less precise control of some of the things that can happen inside the frames than users of other programs might expect.

Any of the "pro" tools will do most of the things you mention quite handily. The one big advantage that Framemaker appears to have is that - with the proper "extensions" - it has the ability to automate the incorporation of XML properties in a document. This means that one document can (theoretically) be used to produce a book, an online reference, a program help file, and ... ... on ... and ... on. Unfortunately, with those extensions, we're talking $1300+ (US) worth of software.

QuarkExpress has been mentioned. So far as I can tell, it finds most use among dedicated "Mac Drivers." It is a very good program, where it's the "house choice."

Pagemaker, which originated as a Mac program, is probably still the dominant program for book publishing - that is for books meant for reading as opposed to sitting on a coffee table. While I wouldn't want to offend anyone, I must note that the Windows version of Pagemaker now incorporates a few features not available in the Mac version. (The same is true of Word.)

Significant progress has been made in making things transferable back and forth between Mac and Win machinery, but it's still not perfect. This machinery (the software especially) is so expensive that it is usually a "house decision" to go one way or the other, and it is "inefficient" to mix Mac and Win machines to any great extent. You use what you're given, or what the customer (and the job) demands.

The Mac was popular, and survived, in the "early days" because it had a better processor (which also made it more expensive) and because it did a better job of handling PostScript. Virtually all commercial large volume printing is PostScript based. The differences in capabilities between Mac and Win machinery have been pretty much "erased" with respect to artwork layout and publishing operations at present. Either can do the job now - although there are some annoying consequences of trying to interbreed them.

Any of the major programs (all very expensive by individual user standards) can do the job - at least in the context of the discussion that has thus far transpired here.

You may note that Pagemaker and Framemaker are both Adobe products. Pagemaker users would generally say that their chief complaint about Framemaker is that it forces arbitrary choices (styling restrictions) on them - much as you complain about Micro$oft doing in Word.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 02 - 11:29 PM

Anyone really interested in "test driving" FrameMaker may be able to find FrameMaker 5.5.6 for Dummies, Sarah O'Keefe, IDG Books, ISBN 0764506374, (about $24.99 last October when I got mine). The book includes a CD with a "trial version" of FrameMaker 5.5 - a pretty cheap way to get a look at it. There is probably a "later version" of the "FM For Dummies," but this is the only one I know included the CD.

The XML extensions were apparently introduced with version 6, which I believe is the current version, so if they are of interest you need something a little more current. FrameMaker 6: Beyond the Basics, Jahred, NewRiders, ISBN 0735711089, (about $45.00) is one of many fairly decent ones.

It's a fairly friendly program, but one I'm not very happy about being (probably) forced to buy soon.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

There is a nice program I found called Open Office...it is freeware...

Open Office

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM

Amergin -

Were you maybe looking for the more recent thread Tech: Alternatives to Office and Word? Open Office seems more appropriate there, although I'm not too familiar with what's in it.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:39 PM

John from Kansas, What would we do without you?, and even though I don`t pretend to know the half of your kindly advice, nevertheless it is all fascinating and informative.

Subject: RE: Tech: Best desktop publishing soft/shareware?
From: GUEST,TomDowling
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 12:11 AM

I have not waded through the whole thread, and this solution might already have been suggested. If so, please disregard: I took a quick look at the MS Works on my recently acquired Dell and will assume yours is similar. You should be able to force whatever page numbering you want by the somewhat laborious route of first paginating the whole document in the regular manner--either through insert or the the header/footer menus, then inserting a Section Break at the end of each page, specifying in the footer dialogue box for that that this section is to be the first page of a new pagination scheme. Then you type in the number you want. You would have to do this as often as you need to force a difernt number than the one assigned by the system. I would be interested to know if this works.