BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2

Subject: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: SharonA
Date: 08 May 02 - 06:15 PM

Continued from Part 1, linked here: Why does 'prayer' scare people? (thread ID 47289) CLICK HERE

The original question:

From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 04-May-02 - 07:10 PM

"I'll be thinking about you"
"I'll keep you in my thoughts"
The above and suchlike are OK
As soon as you say "I'll pray for you" some people freak out!
Why?
Any Ideas?

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 02 - 07:04 PM

Sharon - religious persecution of people (specially children by their parents) is a horrible experience! No wonder you feel the way you do.

I had the good fortune (I think) to grow up in a family that was either agnostic or atheist...or somewhere in between...and I had NO organized religion shoved down my throat by anyone. I regarded all organized religions as nonsensical when I was a kid, and I viewed the world strictly on a rational, scientific basis.

What spiritual beliefs I have developed slowly, due to reading a huge variety of different sources and due to having a number of subtle personal experiences...and a couple of not so subtle, downright extraordinary experiences. As I said before, those experiences were particular to me, and I would not try to use them now as propaganda to persuade other people into believing this or that. It wouldn't work anyway, and there wouldn't be any point to it, because it's not important that other people should necessarily believe what I believe. They each have their own best path of learning to follow.

I talk about the things I believe in, not to convert other people, but because it gives me joy to talk of things I believe in, and it helps to reaffirm my own sense of identity and purpose. I am naturally pleased when I encounter someone who understands where I'm coming from...and I sometimes get pretty irritated by people who equate me with someone they have no respect for whatsoever...that someone is seldom a person who believes anything even vaguely similar to what I believe. The "God" of the bible-thumping fanatic is most definitely not the God I speak of when I use the word "God".

I see no reason why a person with spiritual beliefs like mine has to be connected with any organized religion in order to have those beliefs...rather, he might have taken a good look at all of them, at science and logic, at history, at nature, at math and geometry, at all of Life, and then finally within himself. It is the last one of those that people generally fail to do very effectively. They don't expect to find the answers within, and they seldom look for them there. You can't actually do it unless you still the mind, and most people find that virtually impossible! I have the greatest difficulty doing so most of the time myself, and trying to only aggravates the problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: SharonA
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:52 PM

Little Hawk says, "People... don't expect to find the answers within, and they seldom look for them there. You can't actually do it unless you still the mind, and most people find that virtually impossible! I have the greatest difficulty doing so most of the time myself, and trying to only aggravates the problem."

Yup... and don't think of a white horse! *G*

LH also says, "I talk about the things I believe in, not to convert other people, but because it gives me joy to talk of things I believe in, and it helps to reaffirm my own sense of identity and purpose."

I have trouble discussing the things I believe in, precisely because I don't want to come across as someone who's attempting to convert other people.... and yet I do want to persuade people to think outside their own little boxes on the religious hillside, so I'm conflicted. This is another case where the dogma of the Bible-thumping Christian warps something healthy – reaffirmation of one's sense of identity and purpose – into something unhealthy: in my upbringing, the fatherly advice I was given was to not talk to people who weren't of the same faith and denomination as I (meaning "the same as he") AT ALL unless I was witnessing to those people. The reason given was that talking to such people would "undermine my faith". The only way to reaffirm one's sense of identity and purpose, to my parents' way of thinking, was to reaffirm one's faith with one's fellow believers (to keep talking fellow believers into believing, and talk them out of doubting!) to the point of disallowing disbelief.

Of course, I "rebelled" by having friends of other faiths (and thereby having some semblance of a social life!) and I'm richer thereby. But even now, decades later, I still hesitate to discuss my beliefs (particularly face-to-face) because I don't want to fall into "witnessing mode"; I don't want to force my views on anyone. Mudcat is helping a lot in that regard, since no one is forced to read anything I post! *G*

Even so, I feel strange sometimes when post messages telling people here that I'll keep them in my thoughts instead of saying I'll pray for them, because (a) it sounds inadequate and less supportive, somehow, not to call upon a supernatural power for intercession on the person's behalf; (b) I don't want to come across as refusing to pray for someone; (c) I don't want to come across as "testifying" to my own lack of religious faith, as if I were making a point of rubbing it in the faces of believers who post messages of prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:59 PM

When someone says, "I'll pray for you," my cynical mind suspects that they won't, that they are mouthing a pious formula something like "We should have lunch sometime," and take the expression for the deed.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: RichM
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:03 PM

I usually tell people who are undergoing some problems that I will include them in my meditations. They can infer from that what they will, but it seems to be less obtrusive than "praying" for them...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Pseudolus
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:03 PM

If someone has me in their thoughts and wishes me well, I would expect them to do that in their own way. If they are thinking about me and my well-being and they choose to pray for me, so be it....If they choose to just tell me that they wish me well, fine...they'll be thinking about me, fine again. I think we get caught up in other people's styles and beliefs. If someone chooses to pray for me, and I don't believe in their God, what's the big deal? Nothing BAD happens to me. If they pray for me and I DO believe in their God, then I appreciate the prayers. I don't understand the uproar, it's not like anybody's forcing ME to pray to their God, it's all them. If anyone wants to pray for me, you go ahead....I can use all the help I can!!!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:10 PM

On a somewhat related note: a while back I read someone's suggestion, here at the Mudcat, to the problem of someone saying "god bless you" mixing with other people's beliefs. They say "may your god bless you. I like that. I wasn't quick enough thinking, though, when a serviceman was here at the house. He was very obviously evangelical, blessing my heart and spouting "god bless America"...I'd prefer to think that god/great spirit/etc. is blessing the entire world, rather than one country over another. Anyhow, we've touched on that before. What I'd like to know is how do any of you feel about this and how do you handle it, if it bothers you? He was a nice guy...just takes it for granted, though, that all are Christian, and that is what bothers me, more.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:14 PM

I don't pray for people because I'm an atheist. Prayer doesn't scare me, however, and I don't mind at all if people do pray - for me or anyone else. I think the collective will of people definitely has something in it - there's more to our minds than we'll ever know. The power of prayer seems quite convincing, whether or not there is something (a divine being/essence/whatever) behind it all. It would lift me enormously to know people were thinking about me if I was going through a rough patch, and that's the bit that matters to me.

If I keep someone in my thoughts and I wish them well, isn't that the same thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Pseudolus
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:23 PM

I think he has the right to his beliefs and to vocalize them. When someone spouts off it's more of a reflection of his/her happiness and comfort in their own beliefs. It's when they insist that you join in by expecting a positive response that I believe they need to back off.

I totally agree that it's the assumption that the next person believes the same as you or the belief that yours is the one and only true religion is bothersome. I also believe that in a diverse society, we should welcome hearing about others beliefs if for no other reason to learn more about them. But again, it's that expectation that you join in that causes a problem with that...

When I was a kid, I was very surprised to find out that not everybody was Catholic. When I found out that a Jewish family in the neighborhood didn't celebrate Christmas, I felt so bad for the kids, and I couldn't understand why they weren't upset. Hopefully I've learned a lot since then.....we are not alone....*BG*

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Pseudolus
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:26 PM

Keeping someone in my thoughts seems more ongoing to me, where wishing someone well is more akin to saying have a nice day, I'll say it and I'll mean it, but I won't worry all day if indeed your day was nice.....fine line I guess.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 02 - 01:34 PM

SharonA: I read your threads and all I see is an honest, caring person speaking openly with the hope of not offending anyone. I wouldn't worry about how you should express yourself. Speak your heart. In the long run, that's all there is.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: SharonA
Date: 10 May 02 - 03:17 PM

Jerry: Well, okay, if you insist... *G* ...although, when I write a parody or a satirical song, I know I'm going to offend somebody somewhere (and I have, and I will)!

In a situation such as kat describes, speaking one's heart is often a signal to the "evangelical" to start "witnessing"; if you open the door, he'll stick his foot in it. Unless you're prepared for a long conversation that would distract the serviceman from fixing your place, I'd recommend saying non-assertive things like "I appreciate that" (in response to the blessings) or " 'and on earth, peace, good will toward men' " (in response to the God-bless-America's). Or just smile weakly without saying anything. Or redirect the conversation back toward the work he's supposed to be doing!

Oh, and if he offers you a tract, you might as well take it and just discard it after he leaves; if you decline it, it'll probably end up in your mailbox anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:05 PM

Hi, Sharon: Whoah! I didn't know the phrase was loaded! All I meant is to say what you honestly believe. I guess even that invokes images of people knocking on your door and trying to tell you about Jesus. I don't like that either. They usually know a different Jesus than I do and start telling me that I'm wrong. Just as Atheists don't seem to agree on what an Atheist is (see the Atheist Hymnal Thread,) believers are as different as Atheists or Agnostics. Labels are an awkward way to break up a continuum.

I'm with Wolfgang in feeling that in the long run, it's foolish to argue about religion or politics. I don't do either. If the subject is raised, I'll say what I believe. That doesn't mean that I am trying to make everyone believe what I believe. Unless the subject of God is raised, I'm usually not the one to raise it.

Truth is, "Have a nice day," can have all the punch of the little yellow smiling face. :-). Depending on who says it, so can "I'll pray for you," or, "We've got to get together some time." In my cynical youth, my friends and I questioned what "You're welcome" meant. If anything. We figured it meant, "Forget it." Most of the time we are so busy trying to figure out our own life and deal with the problems as they come winging their way toward us that we're not thinking or praying about anyone else. If someone can step outside their own lives long enough to think about, wish well or pray for someone else (or better yet, DO something good for them) that's something worth being happy about.

In the Atheist Hymnal thread, my dear friend Art Thieme suggested including Handful of Songs. It's a song that he's recorded and the song means a lot to him. Could you put a song by a believing, practicing (but not always getting it right) Christian in an Atheist hymnal? Why not?

So much for labels. :-)

Have a nice day! I'll be thinking about you!, We've got to get together some time. Lovely weather we've been having. :-)

Life is just too much fun to get all wound up about this!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:18 PM

Sharon, I had forgotten the tracts! In the 50s they were ever-present, it seemed. One of my least favorite memories- its most valuable service was eliminating the necessity for the person/carrier to THINK; tossing them in the trash was an ongoing process. They were even part of the litter blowing around in the streets. I wonder if they're still around? I haven't seen one in years.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: SharonA
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:34 PM

Ebbie: They must still be printing tracts; someone keeps leaving them at the local post office!

Jerry (re phrases no one takes seriously): Disturbingly, "how are you?" is one of those phrases. A lot of people don't even bother to lie and say "Fine" anymore; they just ignore the question completely. I find myself having to repeat the question before people realize that I want to know (and resisting the urge to say, "Gosh darn it, I'm trying to show that I care, here!")!

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Cappuccino
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:39 PM

I agree, Sharon - I ask 'how are you?' to get an answer. I find that if you put an emphasis on the middle word, people realise you're serious.

Mind you, sometimes you wish you hadn't asked...!

- ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:25 PM

Getting down to irritating, I knew someone who, every time he saw me would ask, "What's new?" He really wasn't interested, and how in the world do you answer that question, anyway?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:48 PM

Egad jerry, almost as bad as those who exclaim (in a questioning way) "What's happening"?

This topic sure has 'legs' doesn't it? I guess some folk DO get upset at prayer when it's aimed at them...but for the life of me I can't see the harm in it....unless it's TV, and they want you on a mailing list. A person keeping you in their prayers (whether you're a believer or not) seems like a courtesy rather than a call to arms.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Bill D
Date: 10 May 02 - 08:33 PM

"Disturbingly, "how are you?" is one of those phrases. "

...yeah, but it gets worse..they don't even say THAT much...they say 'howyadoin?'...I sometimes listen to radio talk shows on NPR, and there are people who simple cannot begin a conversation unless they mouth that first!...even if the last 6 callers have asked the same question, and the host has said 'fine'....I'm waiting for the host to say, "I was JUST fine the last time someone asked, 2 minutes ago, and I am STILL fine...now ask yer damn question"

It's so bad there's even a commercial with this Texan in a bar telling everyone exactly how he's 'doin'..*grin*...

So, yes, one does begin to suspect that people are speaking in a lot of rote phrases, and not thinking about what they are doing...(and I put a lot of the 'hooray for America' signs since 9/11 in that category.)

Offers of Prayer may be, in fact, the closest to serious some folks get.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 02 - 01:17 PM

Well, if Richard Nixon had ever said to me, "I'll pray for you" it would have creeped me out for days... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 May 02 - 02:03 PM

If I was going to be asked a vapid quastion, I'd much prefer Brer' Rabbit's, "How ya come on?" At least I could answer, "Pretty good, sure as you're born.":-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 02 - 02:47 PM

So, how ya doin'? Wha's happenin'? How's it goin'? What's new? Whassup?

Do we have Shanerization yet?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 May 02 - 03:32 PM

"How's it go?" "It doesn't go, ya gotta push it."

That, if you think about it, is a whole philosophy of life!

"How's life treatin' you?" "Not often enough."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Peg
Date: 12 May 02 - 12:32 AM

Maybe it's cuz I'm a witch, but I tend to be a bit suspicious when confronted with the idea of someone praying "for" me, because there are a great many fundaemtalist Christians out there who believe I am going straight to hell and that I am a baby-killing strumpet of satan...I guess I believe that some folk who might, say, offer to pray for me in a time of illness, etc. would also make sure to pray that my immortal soul be delivered from the ways of witchcraft, etc.

But really, I think such people would not care if I were sick or needed help; their sole interest in praying for me would be to convert me, basically. I see it in their eyes when they try to hand me a tract on the street or invite me to their prayer group (after using soem lame conversational opener like "Do you have the time" or "Do you live around here?") and I say "no, thanks" or "I'm all set" and if I happen to be wearing one, their eyes might fall upon the pentacle I am wearing...

If some well-meaning person of another religious persuasion wants to help me by praying, I say fine! As long as they understand I should also be able to work magic for them without their feeling violated or spiritually compromised...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: SharonA
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:39 PM

Well, Peg, I guess that's just the point! There are some people who believe in the tfundamentalist-Christian version of God who would be absolutely horrified to hear a witch tell them that she is working magic on their behalf (and they would pray for themselves to be protected from that magic, and pray for the witch to be converted!). Yet those same people think nothing of telling anyone of any other religious/spiritual persuasion that they are praying for him or her, and can't understand how that that could possibly be a problem for anyone.

I dunno; maybe the thing to do is to be blunt and just ask the person who says "I'll pray for you" just exactly what that prayer will be. Not that saying "Thanks but no thanks" to an offer of prayer for one's conversion will stop the pray-er from making that supplication, but it might make the pray-er think twice the next time he's tempted to be invasive of someone else's spirituality. After all, I was raised up to be a dyed-in-the-wool fundie until other people made me think twice!

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 May 02 - 05:50 PM

The Indians (Native Americans) believe that if you think it then God (as I define Him/Her/It) hears it.

Now what was the question again?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 17 May 02 - 04:25 PM

Having dragged around my own fair share of spiritual baggage in 46 years, it has been my experience that the ones who offer the "kindness" "I'll pray for you" tend to really mean, "I'll pray that you will mindlessly accept my way of worship as the right one." I consider my self a Christian but organized religion has really left a bitter taste in my mouth. Prayer doesn't scare me. What scares me are the Osama bin Ladens, Jerry Falwells, Cotton Mathers etc out there that are "Praying" for me and the rest of us.(Or is that preying on?) I will be the first to admit that there are people out there who I would believe sincerely mean it as a kindness (Most anyone from mudcat I've met.) Have a good weekend, kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: RichM
Date: 17 May 02 - 10:15 PM

I don't mind anyone praying for me.
But I wouldn't want anyone doing magic on my behalf without my knowledge. Addressing prayers to the creator, by any name is fine. That's acknowledgement of the principle of universal connectivity. But magic is specific manipulation of forces on a more prosaic level...
Many practitioners do NOT have the wisdom to understand the many possibilities for making mistakes in trying to manipulate these forces.
And yes, I do understand that magic exists; I have family members who can do this; but they have learned when to do it and when not to...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Peg
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:36 AM

RichM; interesting point. One should feel comfortable with the relative skill/experience/motives of the person performing the working.

But just so you know, most witches of my acquaintance perform healing through rather mundane techniques like visualization and concentrating energy and projecting it upon the person in need...and this does not actually differ in any significant way from prayer! So what is your objection, exactly?

A person who wants to work magic on someone's behalf who might "make mistakes" in "manipulating forces" as you put it, is not very different from a well-meaning Christian who claims to be praying for someone's health or well-being, but also decides it is necessary to pray for their immortal soul as well...so, again, what is your objection? Is it to people praying or working magic whose motivations and intentions are not pure? I think people who are dabbling in magic who don't really know what they are doing are not going to do any serious harm except eventually and ultimately to themselves..."practitioners" who have studied and practiced magic also know that applying it in circumstances other than the most urgent is a waste of energy and that more mundane methods are better than asking for help via magical means...

You claim to have family members who understand when to use magic and when not to, but do not offer to define what sort of magic they are doing. You also claim magic works on a "rpsaic level" and I confess I find this rather vague and don't understand what you mean by it...

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: 53
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:51 PM

Prayer changes things and some people think they have it just right and if someone starts praying for them, then something in their life might change.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does 'prayer' scare people?Part2
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 May 02 - 08:27 PM

Guys and gals, good people all I suspect----even well-meaning for the most part...

You're too all shook up over this. To my way of thinking, it's just a waste of time. Yours-- mine --whomever. And time is all we've got---and not enough of that commodity at that. Life is short, after all. It won't make ME feel any better to know you want to mumble wishful-thinking words to yourself about my situation. I just think it's silly to do all that when you or I could be communicating much more effectively---or even just be reading a decent book---or even hanging out here at Mudcat. I'm just tired of being told by so many good folks I love that they are praying for me. It's really getting old to keep hearing that. From all I can see, for all your activity and time put in, you are just talking to yourselves. I find it endearing and not anything to make me frightened. But, please, realize it's being done by YOU for YOU -- and not for me from where I view things.

Love (really),

Art Thieme