Bowdlerised shanties

Subject: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Pete M
Date: 26 Apr 98 - 05:22 PM

Picking up on entries by Tim Jacques and MarcB in the Objectionable Material thread, I would be interested in finding out just how widespresd this practice is. My interest in the sea and sailing is equal to that in folk, and my understanding of shanties is that whilst the basic format remained constant and in some cases "traditional" ie Shenandoah, for yankee packets and Homeward bound for British were always sung when leaving for the home port, the skill of the shanty man was to invent verses appropriate to the current ship, its officers and crew, and the more scurrilous the better. SO, three points -

1. There is no such thing as a "correct" version (this is probably true of all folk song) just the version collected by xxx as sung on the yyyy on the voyage from here to there.

2. With the increasing number of square riggers in use for youth development / sail training there should be ample scope for new verses of the most politically incorrect style to be developed by contemporary singers - ? does this happen at the Mystic festival?

3. I suspect that the verses ommitted and or changed will depend on the country, I've never been aware of any non US singer being concerned about "Bully Hayes the nigger lover" but now we are back to "American cultural oddities" so I'd better shut up before I get too confused!

I'd be very interested in others experience and comments.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Bruce O.
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 03:42 PM

I think you're going to have to ask singers if they cleaned up the versions they sing. How are you going to find out if any old shanty was cleaned up? Who can say what the 'original' was? "Outward Bound" on my website is of the 1790's. Who knows if it was bawdy earlier. No earlier version seems to be known. "Little Sally Racket" would be a good one to study, if you can find dateable texts to trace the expurations or deletions, or see when new verses were added.

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 05:22 PM

Pete, I got my versions of "Albertina" & "Good Ol Brig" from an old Cape Horner whose still singing & playing. I never knew it was the Albertina (until he sent my a recording 15yrs later) because he sang it aboard the Carthaginian & subed that name in, on another song he subed in the skipper's name and he wouldn't sing what he considered indecent content, so I think in another song I got the Tra La La version of the refrain instead of what ever it might have been. As for Mystic, yrs back I heard Shanty Jack, an ex tugboatman & great singer from England,, sing the "Chinee Bumboatman" (see in the DT), it's very, not PC, he changed nothing, the MC, before introducing the next singer said "we may not do it correct here but we do it right". I try not to offend the listeners, I did once, over 20 yrs ago, I sang "Hares On The Mountain" & a woman scorned me for it, but it was ok with her when John Roberts & Tony Barrand sang it, so I guess I'd much perfer to sing something 'cleaned up'. As for new shanties, I've heard some nice ones, Cindy Kallet-"We Rigged Our Ship", Peter Bellamy-"Roll Down" (see Transports thread), but I've yet to see or hear (even second hand reference) to them being used aboard ship, my thoughts on that are, there aren't near the amount of ships sailing now as there was 100yrs ago, nor the amount of shellbacks around today as back then & even if there were, only a handfull now do it full time on tall ships, so that with along the store of available traditional shanties, & further the sailors of todays tall ships mostly have a love for the traditional maritime culture would lend itself to using the traditional material. Barry

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From:
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 06:50 PM

It only makes sense that sailors would invent verses to relieve the monotony, and that such verses would insult their enemies (and probably their friends) while bragging of their own capacity for sex and alcohol.

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Pete M
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 07:44 PM

Thanks for the comments so far. Tim, my feelings exactly! From my limited experience, on a 250 ton barquentine, one of the major reasons for not using shantys for working is that synthetic sails being so much lighter than canvas does not lead to a long enough or hard enough job to really get into the rhythm. Singing shanties to the trainees however went down very well. Funnily enough the one that seemed to get the most appreciation was Hanging Jonny, rather than drink or sex based, so perhaps Tim's and my gut reaction was wrong.

Barry, Chinese Bumboat is one of my personal favourites, I would love to get to Mystic myself one day but probably never will, so thanks for the info. I agree that one of the problems with collecting from "traditional" sources is that the people involved impose, as we do, self regulation both out of concern for the presumed sensibilities of the collector, and because in many cases (the hunting songs of the NW England have been quoted as an example in another thread) the songs are private to the "in group" of the singer.

Pete M.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Barbara
Date: 27 Apr 98 - 11:19 PM

And then there's ones that, if you cleaned them up, probably wouldn't be recognizable as the same song, like 'Do na let me go me gals' or whatever it's called, Callio? Barbara

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Barracuda d'Morte
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 12:22 AM

In California we sing a verse of "What do you do with a drunken sailor" that goes "Put him in charge of an Exxon tanker." So, I guess the songs are all still getting changed.

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: MarcB
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 01:48 AM

Interesting conversation, thanks folks.

In my original comments about shantey's I wasn't trying to make a big deal about "correctness" or really knowing how they were sung. Merely, that, at least according to Stan Hugill, "cleaned up"(sexual content, not PC stuff) when he wrote them down and taught them to us.

On Hadrian's Wall there is a bit of carved graffiti still visible, and quite recognizable as an ancient Roman willy. My point was just that soldiers and sailors probably haven't changed much in all that time and sailors probably sang some pretty crude stuff.

But the process is no different than the harmonizing of same. Originally shantey's were not necessarily all that pretty to listen to either, and probably sung in unison. Now we're accustomed to the hair's standing up on the back of our neck when we belt them out in "traditional" multi-part harmonies. And it stops people in their tracks. And is glorious to sing. And I've no desire to sing them ugly for the sake of authenticity:)

True also of women singing in with the men.

It also occurs to me that as much as these changes don't bother me, yet there is a threshold, call it the Percy French test, where they get TOO tamed, too chamber ensembled.

But none of this bothers me a whit. What is wonderful and amazing is that we sing these songs, out of love and respect and pleasure and that people thrill to them. And so the songs live on in us and those who come after us. Long after square-riggers are but legends. And they will change and new ones added and old ones endure. And to paraphrase a certain best-seller. The Lord looked down and He saw that it was GOOD.

Peter, I hope you get to Mystic someday. I spent the best time of my life as the resident shanteyman there in 1980 and still miss the foggy evenings walking on the quay where you could forgot that it was a museum which only hours before had been teeming with touristas, hearing only the creak of wood and hemp and see the tall masts of the Morgan over the tops of the historic buildings.

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 11:50 AM

Marc, I made it a point to ask the same old timer as mentioned above (George Herbert, West Geelong) if there was any harmony when they sung shanties, his response was yes, sometimes it didn't sound like harmony because there were plenty that couldn't carry a tune, but with all the different voices it was harmony. I also asked him recently if concertinas were the norm on board (he plays an english I believe, besides a uke), yes again to this, saying it was better on them in the tropics. Barry

Subject: RE: Bowdlerised shanties
From: Paul Stamler
Date: 28 Apr 98 - 04:20 PM

I suspect the reason the youngsters related to "Hanging Johnny" better than to songs about sex and drink is that, unlike the sailors of old, they're not deprived of either for long periods of time.

Peace.Paul