Folklore: Shepherds' counting systems: British?

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:00 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: little john cameron
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 10:53 PM

Seein as yese are too lazy tae click an' read.

1 2 3 4 5

Keswick. yan tyan tethera methera pimp.

Westmorland. yan tyan tetherie peddera gip.

Eskdale. yaena taena teddera meddera pimp.

Millom. aina peina para pedera pimp.

High Furness. yan taen tedderte medderte pimp

Wasdale. yan taen tudder anudder nimph

Teesdale. yan tean tetherma metherma pip

Swaledale yahn tayhn tether mether mimp(h)

Wensleydale yan tean tither mither pip

Ayrshire yinty tinty tetheri metheri bamf

6 7 8 9 0 15

Keswick sethera lethera hovera dovera dick bumfit

Westmorland teezie mithy katra hornie dick bumfit

Eskdale hofa lofa seckera leckera dec bumfit

Millom ithy mithy owera lowera dig bumfit

High Furness haata slaata lowera dowra dick mimph

Wasdale ..........not given.....
....................

Teesdale lezar azar catrah horna dick bumfit

Swaledale hith-her lith-her anver danver dic mimphit

Wensleydale teaser leaser catra horna dick bumper

Ayrshire leetera seetera over dover dik - -

Among children's counting out games they found the following; observe these seem to count in fours, probably to suit the rhyme

[Edinburgh]"Inty, tinty, tethery, methery; Bank for over, dover, ding .."

[London] "Eena, deena, dus; cattala, wheela, wheila, wus; spit, spot, must be done.
[Universal] "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe; Catch a nigger by his toe".

Scores have even been found in a number of places in U.S.A.

[Cincinnati] een, teen, tother, feather, fib, soter, oter, poter, debber, dick

[Vermont] eeni, teni, tudheri, fedheri, fip, saidher, taidher, koadher, daidher, dik

These were probably taken to the new world by Cumbrian settlers !!

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Haruo
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 09:16 PM

rich-joy, if you want to know about "other countries" why (try to) title the thread "british only"?! (I thought it might be "Britain Online", but no...)

Anyhow, these sound similar to the American children's counting-out system "Eenie meenie miney mo", or the Norwegian one my mother knew but that I failed to memorize properly while she was still alive (it sounded more or less like "Eller meller Deg forteller, something or ooey gor, something on something spawn, snip snop tutti rutti utti", maybe some Norsky can fill in the blanks in my brain).

Liland

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:38 PM

Well, LJC, I probably have an ulterior motive. Though being born and bred an Aussie, I have recently discovered that I have rellies in EnZed (kiwis!) - far South Island, no less - due to a branch of the ex-Lancashire family emigrating from Melbourne to there, around the 1850's.
I now have a keen interest in matters concerning sheep ...

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:37 PM

Slo is all this counting in 20s how we get "keeping the score" in games?

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: little john cameron
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 07:15 PM

Jings,it is amazin whit you guys are interestit in.Countin sheep for Gawds sake!!
However,ah did a wee poke aboot oan the net an' here's whit ah came up wi'
Coontin

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Dead Horse
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 05:37 PM

Counting the legs and dividing by four is also used in Kent, but you must also take note of the colour. The red ones is liable to be foxes, ooh aagh!

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:39 PM

Yes, your "Lincolnshire Shepherds : 1 to 10 yan / tan / tethera / pethera / pimp / sethera / methera / hovera / covera / dik / 11 to 20 yan a dik / tan a dik / tethera dik / pethera dik / bumfits / yan a bumfits / tan a bumfits / tethera bumfits / pethera bumfits / figgits"
fits in well with the Welsh Equivalent 1 to 10: Un / dau / tri / pedwar / pump / Chwecch / saith / wyth / naw / deg
11 to 20:
Un ar ddeg / dau ar ddeg / tri ar ddeg / pedwar ar ddeg / pymtheg / un ar bymtheg / dau ar bymtheg / tri ar bymtheg / pedwar ar bymtheg / ugain.
Nigel

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:12 AM

Clicky for Counting Songs thread.

Clicky for LYR ADD : Old Molly Metcalfe thread.

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:07 AM

My great grandfather used to count the legs and divide by four.... and I've a picture of him doing it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: C-flat
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:42 AM

I heard "yan-tan-tethera"etc. as a kid in the playground (40 years ago) in the North East but it was used as a selecting or counting out game in the style of "one potato,two potato..." I'd never realised it was an old shepherds counting system.

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:14 AM

I was told about the yan-tan-tethera form by my father when I was a child in Yorkshire, but never heard it used for real (and both my father and I spent all our lives in towns, by the way)

Subject: RE: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:06 AM

Coz I know some people often don't read the links provided(OK, myself included, I confess!!!!), I'll add in other info I have :

Lincolnshire Shepherds : 1 to 10
yan / tan / tethera / pethera / pimp / sethera / methera / hovera / covera / dik /
11 to 20
yan a dik / tan a dik / tethera dik / pethera dik / bumfits / yan a bumfits / tan a bumfits / tethera bumfits / pethera bumfits / figgits

The "Counting Songs" thread mentions some from Sussex, Wales, Cornwall, Cumbria, and other stuff (like "eeny meeny miney mo")

Cheers! R-J

Subject: Shepherds Counting Systems : british onl
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 02:49 AM

Ah! that was supposed to read : british only??????????

This thread is related to parts of the "Counting Songs" thread from May 1999, which I also just refreshed ... (can some kind link pixie do a blue clicky thing here and there : puleeze!!)

see also LYR ADD : Old Molly Metcalfe

I'm STILL intrigued about these Shepherd Counting rhymes!!!

I just read a novel which mentions that in Suffolk, 1 to 10 was : unna / tina / wether / tether / pinkie / hater / skater / sara / dara / dic

The above thread mentions the songs : Old Molly Metcalfe and The Lincolnshire Shepherd (with links to), which use these fascinating systems, supposedly relics from the old Celtic languages (pre Nordic and Norman conquest) - is this still thought to be the case??
Are they still in use anywhere??
What about examples from further north in the British Isles??
What about in other countries???
Any other info???

Cheers! R-J