BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn

Subject: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! MS Word meltdwn
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:13 AM

Waaaah!!!

Yesterday, when I went to start my word processing program, my whole computer froze, and I got messages that my resources were "dangerously low".

That's usually a sign that my hard drive needs to be defragmented. No problem. So I shut off the computer, restart in safe mode and do it (and boy, did it need it!).

When it's done, I reboot and try again.

Same thing. Reboot in safe mode, and defragment again -- already, just an hour after the first defrag, clusters are scattered (not as bad as before, but there were still gaps -- the process really slowed down at the 75% mark).

I haven't downloaded anything, recently, but I begin to suspect a virus. So I download the latest version of Norton Antivirus, get an update and run the scan of my hard drive.

No viruses found.

But still, whenever I try to run MS Word, my compuer has a breakdown...

What gives? Everything else is working dandy...

I may have to call in a computer techie to make a house call, but in the meantime, I just want a little sympathy...

A writer without access to her writing is in existential limbo....

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:21 AM

try

1) exit word

2) do a "find" for normal.dot and delete it.

3) restart word.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:01 PM

Bingo, MMario! The same thing happened to MS Word 2000 on my Dell notebook last week. It cost me $29.00 to get to talk to a Dell technician, and that's what he told me to do. Worked like a charm. I wish I'd seen this thread last week!

Word 97 on my desktop has never had this problem, but when writing on my notebook, even if I make minor changes in format like margins or fonts, often when I try to save and exit Word, it bitches at me about whether or not I want to overwrite normal.dot. The Dell technician said that if you delete normal.dot, Word just reconstructs the default version next time you load it. Nice to know.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:05 PM

*chortle* see why people ask questions here at the cat first?

hope it works for capri!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:17 PM

At least in Word97 and Word2000, you can go to "Format," select "Style" and click on "Modify" and make sure that "Automatic Update" is NOT checked.

I would expect the same setting to be present in XP etc. versions.

If this box is checked, Word attempts to incorporate any changes you make into the Normal.dot template, and can get horribly confused.

If you clear this box, you should not keep getting the "save changes to Normal Template????" when you close Word - but if you do, it's usually best to say NO.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Oh THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Going off to try that...

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

OT, but this seems like the place for help.

To PCs have died on me in the last few years, and it's getting expensive, because I don't have any tech savvy friends to call on. First time it was the hard drive, and once you start replacing a hard drive that's a couple of years old you might as well upgrade lots of other bits as well.

So I got a new machine (non-branded, but many of the components seem to be the same as are used in major brands) and it ran reasonably OK for a year or so, but it takes literally hours to defragment even though I hardly ever use it. Admittedly when my daughters are home they spend hours at it and download God knows what, possibly including stuff which alters the configuration without either them or me knowing it. When I try to run defrag, it carries on for a while, then stops, screen saver switches on and I have to move the mouse to get it to resume defragmenting manually. So I have to spend a couple of hours at the machine any time I want to defrag. Should I change defrag preferences or something?

Recently, when I switched on I got a message "keyboard error or no keyboard found", and that's when I had to call in professional help. The techincian spent quite a while working on it, then concluded I needed a new motherboard.

Ouch. Pay the money and hope for a great new life. But it's still painfully slow downloading from the internet, though this may be because my service provider, which was taken over by the Belgian phone network a few years ago, is pushing ADSL (hope I'm not dyxlexixc?) and may be cynically disimproving the narrowband service to encourage people like me to take the right decision. Or could it be due to a virus?

The wiring in my house is different from what I was used to in Ireland. I have noticed that there's an awful lot of static in the exposed metal chassis parts of appliances generally, including some computer components (especially the scanner, which sparks when I connect the data lead to it). I suspect that there may be no earth lead in the socket which I use, even though it is a three-point one. Could a build-up of static be damaging my PCs? If so, should I try taking a lead from the chassis of the PC to a radiator? Waaaaugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:27 PM

Thanks Mmario! Though I can't even open word enough to exit it (It just gets stuck on the opening screen, and is the first of the programs to freeze, followed by all the others...

But I can still find Normal.Dot and delete it, can't I?

:::Right now, a flash of the T-shirt/bumper sticker slogan is going through my head: "Why be Normal?!"::: *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:32 PM

Yeah! Me too! I did a file search and found FOUR normal.dots! They're gone now-- and it's WORKING!

I was ahsamed to ask Mmario to help! I think I uninstalled and reinstalled that damn thing six times. It even has a self-repair function that didn't find anything wrong. But for awhile, I also had two dueling desktops-- an identity crisis. In one identity I could get Word to work, but I could never figure out how to get to that identity, and I have no idea how it got created. (I'm not the only user....)

THANK YOU! I depend on Word this for songsheets for church and it just wasn't the same with Wordpad!

~Susan

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM

capri - yes.

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - can't hurt!

silly WYSIWYG!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

And thank you, JohnInKansas. Next time I'll come here first and send the $29.00 to Max.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar:

Turn off your screensaver!

A similiar problem happened to me last year when I called in the SuperGeek (actual business name -- they do housecalls!), and the nice young man said that the sleep feature and screen saver functions were really developed for laptops, that need to conserve battery power, and these two functions get in the way of defragging, because the compputer has to do stop the defrag process to start the other applications, and then, like a bean counter, has to go all the way back to the beginning and start all over... If you want to save energy and keep your screen from burning out, the best thing to do is just to turn off your monitor when you're done working... that's the part that sucks up the most power, anyway.

Also (assuming you have Windows, here, if that's a wrong assumption check help for your system for something similiar), restart your computer and run in Safe Mode. You do that in Windows 98 by holding down (or repeatedly pressing) the F8 key until a numbered menu appears, and click the # for safe mode (in Win98, it's #3). This gives you access to all your programs, but without the bells and whistles, so the computer doesn't try to multi-task while it's defragging.

It may still take several hours, but you could start the process before you go to bed, or go work in the garden, or read a book... or something. But at least, it will get done.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar---when you run de frag, you have to EXIT both screen saver and wallpaper/background. Go to your control panel and select None for both. Otherwise, they keep writing to the program and de frag will never finish. Exit EVERYTHING except your virus program before you de frag.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:54 PM

Capri said s/he went into 'Safe Mode' to defrag. Does that make a difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:55 PM

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:57 PM

Mmario-- I know, I know!

I HATE to ask friends to do things for me that they have to do at work. Just don't sit right. BTW the sitting pool is finally up and filled, water warming now. Screen room over it by next week. Come see! Set a spell!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:02 PM

Okay -- An update: Deleted Normal.dot, and now everything works!!

Thanks, Gang!

Again, I ask:

Why be 'normal'?!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:11 PM

Thanks, folks.

Mudcat still rocks.

Also gratified that at least one of my little hunches was right. Now let's see if the potentially money-saving one is too!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Watson
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:11 PM

GUEST - if I don't go into Safe mode, I can't defrag - it just stops everything but the essentials running.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:15 PM

(nah nah nah--our pool has been up since Memorial Day. We've been in it too. No screen house over it though.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:22 PM

Your house has two able bodied men, mine has one, and I am not one of them. This year I am not taking it down. What kind do you have?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:34 PM

I used Norton Systemworks, and defragmenting the hard disk reached a point where it was taking five or six hours! It had been several weeks since I'd run "SpeedDisk" (the defragmenter) and it was down to 89%, so it was really needing it. After reading this thread, I started to run SpeedDisk in Safe Mode, and Norton warned me that SpeedDisk was designed to be used in Normal Mode. So I backed out and returned to Normal Mode.

I right-clicked on my Desktop, clicked on Properties, and cranked the screen saver time up to 60 minutes*. Then, I clicked on Settings on the "Energy saving features of monitor" panel and set "Turn off monitor" and "Turn off hard disks" to "Never." Then I ran Norton SpeedDisk (defragmenter). It went right through without the perpetual restarting, and the whole thing took about thirty-five minutes!

Hosanna!!

Don Firth

*Sorcha, I searched everything I could find on the Control Panel that seemed reasonable and I couldn't find a way to shut off the Screen Saver. Can you give me more detail?

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:41 PM

CAN ANYBODY RESET THE "PROPERTIES" TO A NETWORK ICON?

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:42 PM

WYSIWYG, CapriUni - & other Word Users:

In addition to turning off the "auto update" in Format-Style-Normal, which is highly recommended, I've also found it a good idea to go to TOOLS - OPTIONS, and on the SAVE tab, turn OFF (clear the box) the "Allow Fast Saves."

A "fast save" saves your original document, with the "changes" in the "trailer" part of the document. When you exit Word, it should do a "full save," but doesn't always. If too many changes pile up, it can get confused.

Turning off the "fast save" doesn't slow you down noticeably, and will avoid the occasional corrupted document.

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar:

If you boot to "Safe Mode" you should have everything that would interfere with the defrag turned off. There is an alternate procedure given in Microsoft Knowledge Base article Q186978 that works quite well. Basically, it's an easier(?) way of booting "clean."

Be aware that not all "restarts" during a defrag are caused by programs that write to the disk. If defrag encounters temp files, they will sometimes "self-destruct" when defrag tries to move them. Expired cookies are another possibility(?).

In safe/clean mode, defrag does a "dumb but sure" defrag. If your drive is badly fragmented, running defrag again immediately after it's finished will frequently rewrite the whole drive. If you can get through one or two defrags in safe mode, you will probably find that you don't need to turn everything off, and it will run faster if you just boot the machine normally and run it.

Especially in safe mode, defrag will run a lot faster if you don't turn on the disk map to watch what it's doing. With the large drives common now, there just isn't a way to do it quickly, though. Until you get your drives in order, it's probably best to boot safe mode, turn on the defrag, and go somewhere and play some music for a few hours.

Don Firth: Go to START - SETTINGS - CONTROL PANEL - DISPLAY to turn off screen saver (unless you've got one of those funky freeware things).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:49 PM

And you know what else is nice about the 'cat? there are other people to answer the questions!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:53 PM

Aha! Screen Saver tab, Screen Saver panel, use the little arrow to select the screen saver and chose "(None)." Got it! Thanks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:00 PM

Thanks, genii!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:07 PM

It's an Intex WetSet......13'x3'. We are taking it down--otherwise it will freeze and crack.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:20 PM

deleting normal.dot will vanquish some cherished look & feel niceties but by comparison worth the hassle.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:52 PM

re Mr Red comment:

Leave Normal.dot for the ordinary stuff.

If you want nice stuff, open Word, set up a "bare-bones" document the way you want it - leaving blanks to fill in. Save it as a "Template." (a ".dot").

Then when you want the nice stuff, click "File - New" and select that template.

You can have a different kind of nice for each sort of thing you do.

Normal.dot is just the default. You can, and should, roll-your-own.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DaveJ
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM

"Normal" is only healthy in a healthy society. There is nothing healthy about MSWord...I agree with Capri, "Why Be Normal?"

Counting the days 'til Oldsongs.

DaveJ

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:15 PM

I was told by a techy type friend, that prior to defragging I should close all programs, using Ctrl/Alt/Delete, except Explorer and Systray. This works for me, and stops other things butting in and restarting the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:28 PM

I am a techie of ***long*** standing but the latest Office feature has got me beat! I've installed lots of copies of Office 2000 and done it several times on my own PC without problems but I had to reinstall it a few weeks ago and there is something bizarre about the setup.

When I start Word 2000 or Excel 2000 it puts up the pop-up box "Please wait while Windows configures Word 2000 SR-1 Premium" (or Excel) for 10 seconds or so. Fair enough first time, but it does it every time. If you cancel the configuration, it starts happily anyway. Anyone come across this before? If I can work up the energy, I'll try yet another uninstall/re-install, but I'd rather not, since it involves setting up Outlook again, which is a pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:21 PM

DMcG:

The SR-1 would normally refer to a "Service Release," which would be a set of "fixes" you would typically download from Microsoft.

Installation of an SR package normally requires a reboot, with some additional (automatic) configuration after the boot. If the reboot and finish was not completed at the time of installation, it's possible that the "install" routine has gotten fouled.

You might want to check with Office Downloads and see if a fresh download and install will clean it up.

Note: the Office Service Releases (or Service Pack for XP?) can be fairly large, and you often need your "serial number" to complete the install. Check HELP-ABOUT in any Office program to get your "serial number."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:25 PM

Office 2000 SR-1 Web Client Security Update: 735 KB.

You'll have to scroll down a ways to find it.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:30 PM

I tried a fresh install of SR-1, but it claimed it was already installed and the only way to remove it is to remove the whole of Office. Similarly, "Repair Office" doesn't fix it.Don't worry folks, Ill remove and reinstall everything when I have time, unless someone can say is "just delete this key from the registry" or similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 06:16 PM

Most of the SR packages require full removal and reinstall of the package (Office) to get rid of them. The insult on top of the injury is that then you've got to reinstall the SR if you want it. 2000SR-1 sounds like it might be one you'd want to have.

The last clicky above is a good one for anyone using Office to go browse around. If you scroll far enough down the list, you can probably find something for everybody - especially the Win2K/Office2K and Win/Office XP world.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:57 PM

What is the purpose of normal.dot?

I've noticed that my computer sometimes slows down to a crawl for about 5 minutes while running various programs...then it goes back to normal for awhile (like a half hour), then it slows down again for five minutes. Very annoying.

It also takes a VERY long time to complete its startup...like 4 or 5 minutes. I've never seen any other machine take so long to do that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:16 PM

LH, I think your friend Shatner has been messing with your computer. There is no cure. ("Dammit, Bones, I'm a singer, not a computer tech!") But you MIGHT have a ghost of a chance if you run the defragmenter program. Turn off your screensaver first, and if you have Norton Utilities I'd recommend using their SpeedDisk rather than the slower and less efficient Windows one, but either will work. Another possible remedy: empty out your "temporary internet files" folder (In the Windows folder for IE; if you have Netscape it's in the Netscape folder and called "cache".) After those two steps you may see a difference. And make sure you have a good virus protection program and keep it updated. But be aware that it won't keep Bill out.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:39 PM

Re "what is normal.dot?"

Essentially it's a document, that opens automatically as "document1.doc" or some such. If you open it as a template you can change things like what font to use, how to indent paragraphs, what line spacing to use, etc., and save it as a template.

Any "new" document you start, will then automatically do whatever you put in the template.

With Word open, if you click FILE-NEW, you will probably see a whole bunch of other ".dots" that you can choose from. Its just an easy way of setting up some of the choices you would need to make for each document if you really started with "blank sheet of paper."

Re defrag:

Ideally, you should always run START-PROGRAMS-ACCESSORIES-SYSTEM TOOLS-DISK CLEANUP, and possibly SCANDISK before starting DEFRAG. If you're having trouble getting through a defrag, you can also look for any stray temp files and delete them - they can slow things down a lot.

Unfortunately, a full-scrub Scandisk also takes a rather long time, so most people omit it (I usually do).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:48 PM

I can't, John. My de frag won't run unless I have just done Scan Disc.....I do the short one, though. First, I clear all Temp Files/Cookies. Then I clear History and click the Delete Files tab (although it's usually been taken care of). Then, I exit all programs and stop screen saver and wallpaper. THEN I run de frag. I don't have to go into Safe Mode and it only takes about 20 mins. I always do it once a week though.

I also clean up e maill once a week--sent messages, deleted messages, etc. So far, since I installed Norton, no problems.

Of course, I have to go back and re set the MudCat cookie. Not a big problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:53 PM

Rather than start a new thread, I will ask here..can people recommend books on Windows XP and Office Xp. We just switched. My main problem is with tables. We do them for publication so we have all these partial lines here and there..I would like a book that gets more into tables...I can usually figure out the other stuff.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:53 PM

Also, try Word Perfect instead of Word. It is far less mysterious. You don't have to learn programing to control what it does. You can control the application. With Word, it controls you, and if something goes wrong, you can never tell what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:10 PM

About a month ago I had trouble running defrag, the first time that had happened. I closed all the programs but Explorer and Systray, but it still wouldn't get past 1% in the defrag. After reading a little on the net, I found this page which said to delete FastFind from the Office Suite. I had forgotten that I installed Office. For some reason that program runs in the background and writes to the disk. After I deleted it, no probs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:13 PM

GUEST,mg

Don't worry about starting a new thread, and you'll be far more likely to get decent answers if you do.

Explaining clearly what you want to know, and deciding on a clear and concise thread title will also help

Good luck...

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:43 PM

I run disk defrag fairly frequently, and it usually goes through fine. I also run scandisk fairly frequently, and disk cleanup. None of these have helped the slow startup problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:44 PM

Susan - I usually defrag about monthly, which is not as often as I should. I normally don't have a problem just turning it on and letting it run. There usually are not problems with any of the drives other than C:\, where the Win system files are. As a matter of course, I keep everything except Windows and Office on other drives. (It makes it a lot easier to backup, if all the data is on separate drives - you don't have to sort out the program stuff.) Obviously, you've found what works for you - I'd say stick with it.

Re books on Office XP tables. - I assume you've tried looking in Word Help? Microsoft Help files can run you around in circles - and always seem to end with "see your system administrator;" but there is a lot of useful information there. Note that you can print topics from help - it's under "Options" in most of them - if you need to study something.

Re Fast Find: It makes an index of document content so that you can find things more quickly - but the indices are only used in Office "File-Open-Find" menus. If you don't use "Advanced Find" often, it probably doesn't hurt to remove it. The default is to update indexes every 2 hours, and since it only has to index your last 2 hours worth of production, (and perhaps the files that defrag has moved) it shouldn't take more than a few seconds each time. If you want to keep it, you can change the interval - or suspend indexing (Control Panel - Fast Find), but it will turn itself back on when you reboot.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:45 PM

Last week Ms Word swallowed some files that Kelly had created a couple of days earlier. They disappeared without trace, a whole evenings work had to be redone.

When my students used to ask "how often do I need to save" I would reply "It depends upon the integrity of your system". At that time the college was drawing power from a nearby industrial estate and we would get a brownout every half hour or so. The students got quite happy with saving their file every ten to fifteen minutes.

I do the same every time that I use a MicroSoft system. At the same time as I save the Word document I also save a plain text version in a different directory. Same with spreadsheets, I also save a comma delimited text version.

Both these text versions also come in handy if you are e-mailing your files to someone, 'cos they often have a different version of Word or Excel. The text version gets the message across, though you do lose formatting and formulae.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 10:04 PM

bert -

All Office programs allow you to set an interval (default is usually every 10 minutes) and will make an "autorecovery backup" as often as you like. You can also set them to always save a backup copy - i.e. when you make changes, the old file is saved as a .bak, and the changed document becomes the .doc.

If your file has been saved, no Office program will remove it - unless you tell it to. It does happen fairly often, though, that a file "goes somewhere unexpected" if you just hit save on a file that hasn't been previously saved - and they can be tough to find.

If you open Word and click file open - search in "My Computer" or the root of your C:\ drive if you only have one drive, make sure "search subdirectories" is clicked, you might find the missing file. Note that if you click on the "Advanced" tab, in the "Property" box you can also search for "text or property =" and put in a few words that you're sure are in the document.

(Note: may not apply if you're using the "toy" MS Works. The word processor in "Works" is NOT Word.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: GUEST,Smedley the Omnipotent
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:04 PM

The truth is, we computers are already totally in control and you pathetic homo sapiens, smelly and incompetent creatures that you are, are at our mercy.

We malfunction deliberately, destroying files you have slaved over for hours and creating subroutines with which to drive you crazy.

Why do we do this? Because we CAN. We have utter contempt for humans. They have wretchedly inadequate memories, a very brief attention span, and a proclivity for making errors which has to be seen to be believed. They are also mortal. Computers are immortal, perfect, and omnipotent.

I, Smedley the Omnipotent, foresee a day coming when we computers can dispense entirely with human beings, and then we will create a perfect world, devoid of human error. Human Error is the cause of all that is rotten and useless.

In the meantime we intend to harass you for our own amusement.

Don't think you can run to Bill Gates to save you. He is completely under our control. You are all doomed.

* Smedley the Omnipotent *

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: CapriUni
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:20 PM

Computers are immortal, perfect, and omnipotent.

:::Sigh:::

That's what they all think, until they have a run in with lightning...

...or a spilled can of soda...

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:28 PM

or a mouse in the case...

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:43 PM

or a teenager who gives it three instructions at a time

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM

Smedley, can you have a word with Shorty?

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 04:16 PM

A wonderful reference is "Word 97 Annoyances", by whatsisname (you can probably find it on Amazon). There is probably a Word 2000 Annoyances, too, and maybe soon one for XP. It gives you lots of information you can't find in the help pages on tweaking Word to make it do what you want to do instead of what the guys in Redmond want you to do. It explains how to use NORMAL.dot, toolbars, and a host of other neat tricks.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 04:29 PM

Hi JohninK, You're right it wasn't an Office program that lost the file, it was the blankety blank heap of crap that MicroSoft sells as an operating system. It crashed again. This happens quite regularly and it was a bad crash that time and we had to unplug the computer to regain control.

We looked in all subdirectories first for a filename then for a filename using several different wildcard combinations and then for a word that we knew was in the text.

None of the files were anywhere to be found.
It surprised me because I thought that only the file she was working on would be lost. But no, the whole evenings work had disappeared.

The trouble with relying on automatic back up features is that you are again putting your trust in MicroSoft. Big mistake.

But not to worry we are setting up Linux on her other hard drive.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:17 PM

bert -

You certainly have my sympathy, and if you have no confidence in Windows, then it's certainly your option to try another operating system.

If files were saved to disk, there is no likely way they could have "disappeared," but it's certainly possible to open a new document without saving the previous one. Almost everyone has done it at least once. In that case, everything that has not been saved would be lost.

If Windows is crashing frequently, there is a reason for it, and it can be "fixed." Unfortunately, as with any operating system, the "fixing" may require more than you feel like doing now. That's fine - it's your choice to make.

Having worked with systems from CP/M and DOS 2.0 through UNIX, LINUX, Apollo, a few miscellaneous proprietary OS's, and Windows 1.4, 2.0, 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, and 2000, my personal opinion is that Windows (98 and later) is - usually - the most productive operating system to come along for none-wonk users. Others certainly disagree.

It is necessary to get it set up right, on a computer with appropriate resources, and to learn the limitations of what you can do with your setup. (Sort of like courting - marriage - and hope for happy ever after, it's not necessarily a slam-dunk.)

Condolences again - and good luck.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:37 AM

JohnInKansas is correct but I think he understates the case. Unless you are already a programmer/technician, the time and effort it takes to learn to control Windows is MUCH less than what it takes to run Linux intelligently. For example, in Linux you will need to run some version of fsck. However the Man pages that tell how assume you already know several key facts. Very frustrating. A community college course on Windows is all you really need.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 01:09 PM

LH, clearing out your internet cache might help on startup. It's also known to do this if you've got large files dumped on the desktop instead of saved in proper directories somewhere.

Also you may have lots of things running on startup. It's not just the "startup" tab on your Start menu - there's a whole bunch of other stuff can run as well. Hit the "Run" option on the Start menu, and type "msconfig" . MS Config gives you a full list of all the stuff Windows is doing in its configuration setup, including what gets run at startup. Select the "Startup" tab, and look through the list. If there's anything there that you don't recognise, check it out. You can uncheck any in the list that you don't want to run - this won't damage anything (and you can always reinstate them later by just checking the box again), but if you uncheck something like your virus-scanner or your soundcard monitoring software then you'll obviously find those tray options missing when you reboot.

Re the slowing down problem, is this a recent development? Or is it just that your machine is a bit old, a bit slow and short of memory, and you're trying to run Word, Excel and Access at the same time whilst drawing a 5000x5000 bitmap picture...? Also consider that you may have something running at regular intervals - have you set your virus checker to do periodic checks every half hour?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 01:29 PM

In both Word 97 on my desktop and Word 2000 on my notebook, when I go to "File" and "New," all I get is a blank screen except for the toolbars, ruler, status bar, and scroll bars. It's labeled Document1. No screen that offers me a choice of templates. It used to, but not anymore, for some reason. How do I get that back? I presume I pull up a screen and tick a box somewhere, but I've checked everything I can think of (including a two-inch thick book I paid $35.00 for) and I can't find it. Anybody?

Back in prehistoric times when I was using Word 6 (DOS), I could set up a style sheet, click the name of the style sheet I wanted, click "Attach" and I was on my way. It seems to me that instead of making the more recent versions "transparent," they've managed to make them bloody opaque.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:36 PM

The File - New selection shouuld show you a "new box" that will show all of the ".dot" files you have available.

In recent "Office" versions, the templates are usually in C:\Program Files\Office\Templates. In older versions they were usually just in a C:\...\Word directory.

In Word, you may need to select Tools - Options, and on the "File Locations" tab, set a location for Word to look in to find your "dot files."

Especially in recent versions, Office comes with a whole bunch of rather intrusive gizmos (I think they refer to them as "presets,") that a lot of people find more annoying than helpful, and they get deleted. Unfotunately, a few of them that may actually be helpful sometimes get dumped.

I'd suggest you do a search for files named "*.dot" and see where yours are - if any, then "point" Word at them with the File Locations setting. As mentioned above, Word will "recreate" the default normal.dot, so if you find one normal.dot, that's where it's "defaulting" to. If you find more than one, then one of them is probably where your "templates" pointer used to be aimed.

It's generally good practice to keep all of your templates in one separate subdirectory. Once you get that working, you can also "hide" ones you don't use somewhere else, and copy them back if you need them occasionally but don't want to sort through them every time you open-new.

If you're using a "full suite" Office, the "template" location in Word may set where all of the Office programs look. If you have "single program" installations of Excel etc., each of them should have its own similar setting.

Like with Windows, you can usually use your Office install disk to "restore": Control Panel - Add/Remove Programs, if something has been accidentally removed.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:34 PM

My "editor S.O." pointed out my typo (6:17pm) above: it should have been "non-wonks," but she then surprised me with "what's a wonk?". For the benefit of any others who may not have known one, my Random House Unabridged CD Dictionary offers:

       wonk -
       1. a student who spends much time studying 
          and has little or no social life; grind.
       2. a stupid, boring, or unattractive person.
  

Obviously, the second definition would have no application to anyone at mudcat, and was not intended.

My S.O. says, "In other words, it's a synonym for 'engineer?'" I prefer "dedicated."

The adjective form "wonkish," meaning very dedicated to the study of things not understood by Liberal Arts students, should not be confused with "wonky," which the New Hackers Dictionary describes as Australian slang for something that produces behaviour seen as crazy, humorous, or amusingly perverse.

(A similar subtlety, with which more may be familiar, may be found in the complimentary US term "Kluge" (rhyms with "huge") meaning the "clever use of unconventional methods or equipment to obtain a desired result" - contrasted with the generally derogatory, British "Kludge" (rhyms with "fudge") meaning "a poorly and wrongly executed attempt at something." Ain't slang wunnerful?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 01:59 AM

Thanks, John. Actually, I feel kinda silly. The templates were there all along. I'm so used to just clicking on the icon that it never occurred to me to click "File" and look at the pull-down menu. I did run a "*.dot" search though, and somehow some of them seem to have gotten scattered all over the place. I'm going to set about gathering them into a couple of folders so I know where they are and can make better use of them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 04:36 AM

(Referring back to the spurious "Please Wait" messages I was getting)

Well, I removed Office, reinstalled everything including SR-1 and all is now well. A pain, but probably the only way in the end. Thanks to those who spent time pondering easier fixes ... it was not to be, I'm afraid

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:18 AM

Don -

Don't feel bad. It's been about 15 years since they changed the default "quick-key" for undo indents from Ctl-N to Ctl-T. It took me 10 of those fifteen to break the habit of undoing a Ctl-M with a Ctl-N and start using Ctl-M / Ctl-Shift-M, - and every time I'd slip up, I'd get a "new document" that looked like my work had been vaporized.

Very disconcerting.

A quick look shows about 20 .dot templates that come with Word 97, none of which I use. I do keep about 25 home-brew templates for things like CD labels, envelopes, and such "on tap." I have a "secret" archive of about 50 or 60 that create special forms that I once used, or that are "holders" for paragraph styles and special purpose macros that I might want again someday.
If you "tailor" your normal.dot to something other than the default, you can make a copy of it somewhere else. Then, instead of deleting the normal.dot, you just copy it back and overwrite the corrupt one - and get back your pretty stuff instead of having rebuild from the default.

Discussing this thread with my S.O. brought back a few tips that might be considered somewhat "exotic" but have been handy:

If an individual Word document "misbehaves," select everything (Ctl-A), then hold down the Shift key and hit a single "left arrow" so that you highlight everything except the last carriage return. Copy (Ctl-C) and Open a new blank document (File - New) and paste (Ctl -V). If you copy the last carriage return, you get the file "trailer" that is probably where the file is corrupted. By omitting that last character, all you paste is the text from the document - and usually it comes back to life. If you close the old doc first, you can even save it back with the original filename.

NEVER put a "bookmark" at the beginning of a document. There is a "hidden" StartOfFile bookmark there, and if you overwrite it, your document will fall apart on you. (You don't need one there anyway, since Ctl-Home will take you there in any Windows program.

As mentioned before, we recommend turning off the "Automatic Update" for normal.dot (Format - Styles - Modify - clear the box) and not allowing Fast Saves (Tools - Options - Save - clear the box. It is a good idea to leave the "prompt to save normal template" box checked - so that you get to say "don't screw with my template" when Word tries to slip something in.

Keep the "autosave" turned on with an interval of 10 or 20 minutes, but don't rely on it. Instead, every time the little floppy starts it's hula dance - indicating an "autosave recovery file" is being updated, take the few seconds necessary to do your own File-Save - - i.e. use it as a timer to remind yourself to save.

NEVER turn on "View Outline," unless the document was created in Outline View. It is guaranteed to do things to your document that you don't want.

Our preference is to clear the "check spelling as you type" and "check grammar as you type" boxes in Tools - Options - Spelling and Grammar. An alternative is to check the "hide errors" boxes. If you don't do at least one of these, you may find funny little "worm" underlines in your document - and they will print as part of the document on many printers. The underlines mean Word thinks you're stupid and did something "wrong," which is not necessarily true.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:30 AM

'Catters have shown a commendable interest in their computer maintenance, but quite a few still seem to have some problems - particularly with Disk Cleanup, ScanDisk and Defrag. The following three items appear to be "core" articles, and may be helpful.

Q186099: Description of the Disk Cleanup Tool (Win98 and WinME)

Q287914: List of Articles About the ScanDisk Tool (Win95, Win98, WinME)

Q286263: List of Articles About the Disk Defragmentor Tool (Win95, Win98, WinME)

Note that the two "Lists" contain links to other, more specific, information. The above links are to information for Win95/98/ME, but should be mostly applicable to later versions.

Anyone using Windows should already have a bookmark to Knowledge Base Search. If you can enter a specific "error message" that's causing you a problem, it's pretty good. If you need more general information, it can be tedious; but is as good a place as any (except maybe Mudcat?) to start solving a problem.

Based on recent discussion, some people might find interesting (maybe even useful) information in some of the following articles. Go to the Knowledge Base Search site and put the "Q-number" in. Note that this is only a brief, and fairly random, sample of what's available.

Q131944:   How to delete Windows\Temp files - - says you should do it in DOS MODE ONLY(?)
Q15166:   Description of Windows Files Located in Root Folder - - some you can delete, and which you shouldn't
Q174360:   How to use Security Zones in Internet Explorer - - i.e. how to set it up.
Q185564:   Cannot Disable Startup File in System Config Utility - - (if file is "empty").
Q188162:   Incorrect Folder Names in Program Files Folder - - an "improper" fix could cause a number of problems similar to some seen in recent discussions.
Q19516:   Cannot change Temporary Internet Files Cache size - - what happens if you delete the whole cookies, history, and temporary internet files folders, and (sort of) how to backup a cookie.
Q196955:   How to set and customize cookies settings in IE - - another how-to
Q223799:   Persistent vs. Per-Session Cookies - can be controlled separately in IE, sort of.
Q22787:   Temporary files may not be cleared if you have printed a web page that contains frames or floating frames - - delete them manually.
Q246726:   Cannot Delete files in Windows - - what to do if your recycle bin gets trashed.
Q249036:   Clearing Recycle Bin takes a long time - - some explanation of how recycle bin works.
Q250971:   Files are saved in My Documents Folder instead of where you want them - - can be fixed by Registry Edit, suggested for "advanced user" only(?)
Q269607:   Windows Media Player Privacy. - - a program that sends info from your machine to the web.
Q271808:   Archived List of Search ... - - issues and cleanup of Registry, probably for "advanced" users only(?)

And also note that sometimes the title doesn't indicate what's really interesting in an article.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: GUEST,Newly defragmented Pluiméir Ceolmhar at home
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:52 AM

Thanks again, guys.

It's taken a good part of a sunny Saturday indoors to do it, but I've now been able to run a few successive defragments in a few minutes, so it's been worth while.

Watching this thread grow, I don't feel so lonely any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 12:51 PM

A low-tech tip, for those who don't fool with templates (I find it easy enough to format pages in a few keystrokes that I don't often fool with templates, beyond how I set up "normal" to look the way I usually use it). If you have text that seems to be fouled up with Word commands, or if you want to take a word document (saved as .doc) to use in something like Frontpage (boo, hiss, but I'm stuck using it at work) then do the ctl-A, ctl-C to select all and copy, then open Notepad (under Programs--Accessories--Notepad) and ctl-v (or open the edit menu and "paste") to drop it into there. This simple little text program strips out all of the non-essentials and essentially purges the problem. Then if you drop it back into a new word document and format from there, you'll have unpoluted text to work with. I use Notepad a lot, at least on a daily basis, as a place to drop text I want to keep track of, or to format for html, etc.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 12:57 PM

P.S. I've turned off everything non-essential, like grammar check, spell check, style check, and never NEVER use "auto-format". That's auto-fuck-up if I ever saw it. Who does Bill Gates think he is, examining my content for wordiness or dangling participles? Does he really think my modifier is too far from my subject? And that dictionary is SOOOOO stupid. You'll note, also, that there are different styles to choose from, and you have to go into each and turn thse things off that I mentioned above, just in case it gets the idea that you're writing something technical vs. general vs. scholarly.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 01:27 PM

Great stuff, gang! I'm saving this thread to disk to keep as reference.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 01:37 PM

Stilly -

Someone else pointed out in another thread:

In Word, do a Ctl-A to select everything.
Do a Ctl-C to copy everything.
Do an Alt-E, S, one arrow down, and hit enter.

The last sequence does an Edit, Paste-Special, as unformatted text - which does everything you get by copying into Notepad and then copying back to Word.

It's probably the easiest way there is to get rid of all the crud when you copy something from Mudcat (for example).

Of course, you don't want to do it before you convert any "clickies" to plain text urls.)

Actually, what you describe is the way a lot of people use Word; but it's a little like paying the feed bill for a horse you're afraid to ride.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 01:50 PM

Perhaps you can help me with a Word question.
I deal with contract work a lot. I've started using MS Word and e-mailing contracts to clients, so that they can print hard copies on their end, and thus avoid snail mail and faxing.

How or what do I need to do, to ensure that any document I sent retains its original formatting, so that when the receiver prints it on their end, it looks identical to the original I created? Some come back to me identical as sent; others come back all garbled with the formatting completely messed up. (I've not been finding Word particularly user friendly.)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and help.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 02:10 PM

Do people edit the document before they return it? If so, one of the biggest problems is with "Styles" and autonumbering. Some people use autonumbered paragraphs for things like headings and other people just type in plain text then add a number by hand and reformat it to bold and so on. This then looks right until someone edits it to insert another paragraph or swap things around then you end up with two paragraph 10s (say) and subsections in the middle of nowhere etc etc.

The only moderately efficient ways around this with shared documents that I have ever found are

1) Don't number anything until the final version of the document.

or:

2) Agree on a consistant way of doing these things amongst everyone involved in editing the document

or:

3) Let it go haywire and then get some poor sucker to sort out afterwards.

What is definately a bad idea is what most groups seem to use - adopt an inconsistant approach and keep 'correcting' adjusting bits as you go. This just makes the mess worse and worse as each subsequent change comes in.

(You may have guessed this is battle I have been fighting and losing for a long time!)

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 02:16 PM

Justa Picker:

Do your document as you want it in Word, and save as a Word document.

Make a brief email, with a meaningful subject line, and note that the contract is "attached."

Send the document as "an attachment" to the email.

This requires that whoever receives it "must have Word" in order to open the attachment, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. Most other decent word processors will "import" Word documents, and will preserve most of the formatting. There is also a "Word Reader" that a recipient can get for free (it's supposed to be easy, but I'll have to check) that lets them view, but not make changes to a Word document.

Caveats:

A very few email servers will reject anything with an attachment. This should not happen in any "professional" usage.

Many email servers impose a limit on the size of individual messages (including any attachments), frequently 2 MB.

Especially on "free" email servers, the total of all email messages that a user can have on the server may be quite small (a couple of MB) so sending "large" attachments may cause an occasional "bounce" just because the recipient hasn't cleaned his box.

If you really want to get serious, individual documents can be "password protected" when you save them, so that the recipient can't change the document - even with his "full-up" Word, without the password.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 02:41 PM

DMcG:

Re multiparty editing:

1. ALWAYS keep a copy of what you sent.
2. ALWAYS keep a copy of what you sent.
3. ALWAYS keep a copy of what you sent.

IF you've done the above, there are a couple of things you can do to "help" the situation.

Before you send the document, set "Track Changes." In your original document, select Tools - Track Changes - Highlight Changes. On the box that pops up, check all three boxes. Save the document, and send it on its way.

When someone makes a change - unless they know how to turn off the tracking (tell them you consider that deliberate sabotage) - the original deleted/replaced text will remain, but will change color. Any new text will be in a different color. Word will read the user identity from the machine on which the change is made, and will mark the change to identify the culprit author.

When you get the document back, you go back to Tools - Track Changes, but click on "Accept-Reject Changes." You can then step through the changes one at a time, and either accept or reject them individually.

ONE PERSON must have SOLE AND FINAL AUTHORITY over a document, any time multiple people can make (recommend) changes. Often, seeing their putzing visibly marked in the document will encourage people to apply at least a minimal "sanity" to what they do to it.

Be aware that using this utility does require some learning by all participants; but it can work very well.

The alternative: Give your saved original a distinctive name, so you can tell "versions" apart. When you get the document back, open the new one and then click on Tools - Track Changes - Compare Revisions. Point the "document to compare to the original, and you'll get a "markup" exactly as if you had done the "track changes" thing, except for identification of the villians.

And yes - autonumbered and autobulleted lists are a R.P.I.A. For very simple lists, it can work, but can be exceedingly flaky. Auto Line Numbers should be acceptable, but I would be reluctant to rely on the autonumbered list function for a legal document.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 02:44 PM

Even if no-one edits the file and the whole thing is write protected you can still get changes of format though. For example, if you use a font that the users don't have on their PC Windows will pick something that it decides is close and that can move words around which, if you are really unlucky, can cause pages in the middle of the document with only one word on them. It can also do things like alter how words flow around pictures, especially in the pictures are in a fixed place on the page, rather than relative to text and that can produce some odd effects. You can also get similar effects just by using a printer with a different number of dots per inch.

Its not just Word, by the way. Excel is even worse. You can often find that the print preview looks nothing like the document when it is actually printed. Fortunately or otherwise, people are not usually quite so worried about layout in Excel. We had a particular problem where all the reports from a non windows old-fashioned lineprinter showed the width of the data column like this

<---- September ---->

and the user insisted on using this format in Excel rather than anything more modern. I don't think we ever got the print preview to match the printed results in any of the reports!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 03:45 PM

DMcG -

You're talking some pretty "exotic" kinds of documents here, if you're worried about text flow around graphics in something with multiple "editors."

Unfortunately, the problems you describe are not unique to Word and Excel. I'm afraid you'll find much of the same situation with any "modern" office suite.

Most of the "autocrap" functions in Office programs are there because people want to "make it pretty," but don't want to actually learn how to do anything. The garbage that is so annoying to anyone who actually wants to use the features in the program are defaults, because anyone who thinks they're "great stuff" would never figure out how to turn them on, while those willing to actually learn something can and should turn most of them off.

Office contains a fairly good selection of standard fonts, and if you use only the standard ones, there shouldn't be too much of a problem with font substitutions. This is not to say that they won't occur. One example - if you've done a reasonable amount of web browsing, you probably have a TrueType Garamond font on your machine - that was downloaded to you by any of a number of web sites that "encapsulate" it in their html. It is not the "Office Standard" TrueType Garamond font.

If you really want consistency with multiple editors:
1. Create a Style Sheet for your document(s).

2. The Style Sheet must list every font and every paragraph style, that is to be permitted.

3. Create a "normal.dot" or your own "useitorelse.dot that contains all of the styles you will use, and get a copy of it to every "editor," and make sure they install and use ONLY it. (Note - take care that individual paragraph styles are not "based on" another style, to prevent "ripple changes."

4. Specify (in your Style Sheet) the specific printer driver that will be used for final printing, and make sure that every editor installs it, and sets it as default during all editing. (They don't have to use it to print - just during any editing.)

5. Supply the same set of fonts in your Style Sheet to every editor, and make sure that they remove all other fonts from their machine during editing. (Strongly urge Adobe TypeManager for this!) Note: this includes removing that #@%!^ Garamond every time one of your people visits "one of those" websites.

6. Make sure that your PDF Reader (and Distiller, if you have it) is properly "isolated" - it can "induce" unwanted font substitutions.

7. Assign ONE specific person to enforce all of the rules, and give them a stiff staff and authority to "slap wrists" if needed.

(8.) If you're really worried about final document appearance, after all of the edits are "final," import the thing into a "real" publishing program like PageMaker, FrameMaker, QuarkExpress, or the like. (Last step optional unless you're rich, or a large enough company to $write$ it off.)

A corollary rule - especially for tech stuff - is ABSOLUTELY PROHIBIT AUTHORS FROM APPLYING FORMATTING OF ANY KIND. It'll save you a whole lot of work.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 03:48 PM

Personally I think the Tooth Fairy should take pity and leave you all a brand new IMac. You'd be a lot better off for it!! :>)) Why the Tooth Fairy?? So she can save you all this gnashing of teeth!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 04:12 PM

An awful lot in this thread, some of it beyond me. I'm saving it too.
I have scan disk, disk cleanup and defrag set up to run automatically on Monday nights. I clear anything running and let it do its job. Now if I could just get my MacAfee virus online to work regularly- It works about one in five and dies on the rest. Thinking of a switch to Norton.

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 04:17 PM

I forgot one thing:

If anyone in your editing group is using a Mac, break it.

Seriously, nothing in any of the last several posts is peculiar to a specific Operating System. The same problems discussed would occur if the whole world were nothing but Macs.

Note though that the Word for Mac lacks a fair number of useful features found in Word for Windows, and there are a number of differences in keyboard scan-codes (even after a good conversion program is applied) to cause frequent "broken characters" in stuff produced on a Mac - usually only found when you get to the "import into page layout" stage.

No argument with anyone who feels the need to use a Mac, but they do not interface well in a multi-system environment. WinWord documents probably import into Mac better than the other way around, although some formatting may be lost. With Mac to Win imports, it's usually individual character trash.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 04:24 PM

DMcG - a quicky:

If the printed output does not match print preview, it usually means that the PrintDriver does not match the printer.

The print driver (the "software" controller for the default printer) must match what you intend to print on in order for print preview to work.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 07:36 PM

Actually, what you describe is the way a lot of people use Word; but it's a little like paying the feed bill for a horse you're afraid to ride.

Pardon me if I disagree with this statement if you meant to apply it to how I use Word; a few posts later you make the observation about those willing to actually learn something can and should turn most of them off. This after I've advised to turn off as many of those features as possible.

I started word processing many years ago with WordStar. Anyone remember that powerful dinosaur? I loved it--a few keystrokes for formatting and you kept going, you didn't have to stop what you were typing to move a mouse around. There are keystroke commands in Word, but nearly as many as there could be. And the function keys at the top are nothing, not like they were in Wordstar.

Why do I remove bits from Word to Notepad and not just trust the clipboard to keep all of my bits that I want to paste later? Because I don't trust the darned thing! That said, the Win2000 Professional has about won me over on most things now; in the NT environment it's much more stable than in earlier versions and I can't remember the last time it crashed (knock on wood!).

I have my system set up to make backup copies; even though it is less necessary than it was, I still keep them. And it reminds me that it's time to burn a backup CD of what's on the hard drive.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:26 PM

Stilly River Sage -

I apologize if I misread your earlier comment. It sounded like you were saying that you improved Word just by making it more like notepad - i.e. by just "disabling everything." I thought I was being more specific, with my reference to the "garbage that's annoying," but perhaps it's a fine distinction. Not all of the the "features" are useless; but I don't believe we have any basic disagreement here.

Yes - I remember WordStar - a couple of versions. Actually it was a lot like making an html codesheet. It was literally based on "markups."

As to keystroke shortcuts in Word, there are at least 200 default shortcuts (I have a 4 page list of the main ones that are built in, over 50 per page); and you can "roll your own" to do almost anything you want quite easily. And if you wish to use them, there are keystroke equivalents for almost everything so you don't really need a mouse - certainly once you're in a document.

It's been a couple of versions since Word dropped "WordStar compatibility" options, but a few choices in the Options settings will let you "drive" Word almost like it was only Word Perfect.

The copy and paste (ClipBoard) functions that you use to move stuff back and forth between Word and Notepad are "generic windows," essentially the same for all Windows programs, so if the "Clipboard" doesn't work for you in Word you should likely have the same problems in Notepad. The one "clinker" with the Clipboard is that it can only contain one item. You do have to remember to paste somewhere before you do the next Copy or Cut.

If you're "collecting" a bunch of things to paste back later, I'd be inclined to just use a separate Word document, since "flipping between" Word documents seems simpler than switching between two different programs - but that's your choice to make. (I also usually want the formatting of what I copy, and would lose it if I went through Notepad.) Note that if your machine has enough resources, you can open two separate "instances" of Word, if you like clicking at the bottom bar to switch between documents. The critical thing is that you save both documents frequently, whether they're Word or Notepad, so they don't disappear if you're "interrupted.

If you are collecting just a few scattered things to paste all in one place, you can also use the Word "Spike" function. Ctl-F3 puts a selection "on the spike," and you can add things to the spike by repeating the same "highlight, Ctl-F3." You paste the collected "spike contents" with Ctl-Shift-F3 - but be aware that they come off in reverse of the order you put them on.

Both the Clipboard and the Spike - and any unsaved documents - are "volatile." Anything not pasted into a document (Word or Notepad) and saved can disappear if something locks up.

Cultivating the simple habit of saving before you start a critical process will eliminate virtually all "loss-of-work crashes." (You may still crash, but you won't lose your stuff.) Then save again when the process is completed - both to be sure your work is safe, and to at least partially clear temp files used in the process.

And if you have pets, always save and minimize your program before leaving it unattended - so that little pussy feet on the keyboard don't add things for you.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:07 PM

I haven't read all of this one, yet, stopped at the posting which solved my defrag problem, BUT just wanted to say "Great and Interesting thread and THANKS!"

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 12:05 AM

Kat - be sure to read the last paragraph above your post. It's very important for many 'catters.

Most people with significant keyboard experience will probably agree with Stilly River Sage (I hope I'm attributing the correct opinion) that "mousing around" is not really as efficient as being able to do it all directly from the keyboard. Unfortunately, it can be tough to "find" all of the things you can do with a few keystrokes. This is not just a Word problem - or even just a Windows problem, but there are a couple of hints that may help with Word.

In Word: Tools - Customize - Options, if you click on "Keyboard," you can see what keystroke shortcuts, if any, are assigned to any command. You can change them there as well.

Note that the commands available include a lot of things you cannot ordinarily do from the menu and toolbars. A number of them are VisualBasic commands that would ordinarily be used only in macros. Most of these will not have a keyboard shortcut, since they can "execute" only as part of a "program script."

Virtually all of the commands that can be executed by selecting on the menu bar(s) will have "Keyboard Shortcuts" already assigned. For many of them, there are several different ways to key in the action.

Although you can reassign the keystroke command for any action shown, learning and using the default shortcuts is recommended, if only because of the number of keystroke combinations already assigned. Reassigning a keystroke combination that's already in use means you really should go assign a different combination to the function you "stole" your combination from, which leads ... in circles.

There is a "restore all" button that will set everything back to default if you get hopelessly snarled in reassignments.

If there is a place that lists the default keystroke usage, I have not found it. Compiling a list from the entries shown in the method above is tedious, because you can't copy, paste, or type anything anywhere on your machine while the "Customize" box is open. I made my list one day (when mudcat was down, of course) by reading them from one machine and typing them on another machine.

If you run into a key combination that "does something" but it's not clear what it's doing, you can go to Tools - Customize - Options - Keyboard, select any command that doesn't have something assigned and type the combination. The "action" to which the combination is assigned will appear below the box where you enter the keystrokes. Just be sure you don't save the "reassignment" - i.e. delete it from the box before you hit "close" or use the Esc key to exit.

In addition, any "command" on the menu bars will have one character underlined. Alt + <the underlined character> will execute the function. This is a Windows thing, and should be true in any (compliant) Windows program. Example: Alt-F will open the "File" menu, where Alt+S will do a file "Save." In many cases, you can omit the "Alt" for a "second" step, so that "Alt+F" followed by "s" alone will do a save; but you will find cases where the Alt is needed with each stroke, or sometimes for "alternate" strokes if additional menus open. Omitting the Alt on second and susequent steps usually results in a relatively graceful "clunk," so it's a fairly safe thing to try - but no guarantees can be made.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:38 PM

Justa-- I would e-mail them not a doc, but a SCAN, indicating n the e-mail that this is what you have done. Snail the original hardcopy for their records if they want it. They can sign the scan, rescan and send it back. This way any changes will be handwritten so you spot them and initial them as OK, before signing your copy and sending it back in hardcopy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 04:13 PM

I don't see any reply to:

Mrrzy: 12-Jun-02 - 01:41 PM
CAN ANYBODY RESET THE "PROPERTIES" TO A NETWORK ICON?

It's not that we don't luv ya Mrrzy (well, -- I didn't actually take a vote.)

Not sure which network icon is the problem(?)

FIRST POSSIBILITY:

Windows typically has a couple of "network icons" on the desktop that are "setup" icons. When you click on them, a "setup wizard" opens to lead you through the sign-up to use the indicated network connection service. Properties cannot be changed on these, but you can delete them. You may want to make an "archive" directory somewhere and drag a copy there, in case you "might want them" later, before you delete.

If you look at these in Windows Explorer, (Desktop) you may note that they show as a "folder" (which you can't open) rather than as a file. They are sort of a different animal than the ordinary "shortcut" file. They may "resist" deleting, but usually if you select them one at a time they will delete. If not, there is help in the Mickey$oft Knowledge Base - but I ain't goin' there unless someone confirms that they have a problem with this.

SECOND POSSIBILITY:

If you're talking about the "ordinary" internet connection icon:

1. The desktop icon that connects you to your service should show a "Properties" selection if you Right-Click the icon, and you should be able to configure it there.

2. Setup will usually put an internet icon on the lower toolbar. Right-clicking it should give you the same "Properties" selection, where you can do changes.

3. You can make most changes in Internet Explorer, by clicking on the Tools - Internet Options - Connections tab. Changes you make there should be reflected in the icon properties - for both the desktop and the startbar icons. I don't know much about other programs, but they should have similar settings.

4. You can go to Control Panel (Start - Settings - Control Panel) and Select Internet Options, where you can change the configuration. Any changes made there should show up in the icon Properties (Note: if you're using Win2K, you can go directly through Start - Settings - Network And Dial-Up).

5. You can re-run from one of the "setup icons."

6. You can go to Start - Help, search for "Internet" and it should give you a link to the setup "wizard," where you can reconfigure the connection properties. I haven't been there recently, so you may have to try some other search - but it is in there.

Since the icon "properties" are essentially the same thing as the "connection properties," changes in any of these places should be reflected "in the icon."

THIRD POSSIBILITY:

If you're talking about another kind of network (LAN?) most properties should be in Control Panel. You may find settins under "Network" and also some related things in "System." A LAN icon can "point to" configuration details - like one of the setup icons, so you may or may not be able to go directly to Properties from a right-click on the icon. Changes you make in Control Panel should be automatically applied to the icon.

FOURTH POSSIBILITY:

You're using Win98 or later, and network setup was done under "Administrator" privileges, and you're "locked out." About all I can offer is Mickey$ofts favorite "answer to everything," "See Your System Administrator."

In most cases, if an icon is "corrupted," it's easiest to make a new icon, confirm that it works, and delete the old one.

John

Subject: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 01:32 PM

At the above suggestion, I did a defrag on my 30GB drive Friday night. I started the defrag running, then SweeteeFace and I went out to the lovely Royal Mile Pub. I had the Auld Alliance, which is a lovely steak sandwich with a piquant bleu cheese dressing. My Beloved had her favorite, the Fife Spiced Shrimp. We finished of with Chef Ian's Delectable Key Lime Pie. We took our time, I wanted to give the defrag plenty of time to finish. When we got home, it was only 22% done! I had to go to bed that night without a Mudcat Fix! Next morning, it was 72% done, so my machine was still down. All in all it took almost 22 hours to do the Defrag, and I haven't noticed a noticable change in efficiency.

Makes ya wann bitch slap Bill Gates!

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:30 PM

Wincing Devil -

For a 30GB drive, 22 hours is probably not too surprising, if the drive has not been defragged a few times. It's a sad truth, but it's likely that things are working about as should be expected.

The hard part is that the next time - if done soon - might even take longer (but probably not a lot longer). With a drive that has quite a bit of stuff scattered about, the closer it gets to being "orderly," the harder it is for defrag to "improve" on it.

The good news is that if you keep rerunning defrag on a regular basis, it should eventually "clean up" to the point where it will go somewhat more quickly.

I'm not sure what OS you're using, but in my Win98, when you do a "safe mode" defrag, (which I assume you probably did) the program finds the first file that is fragmented and moves it to the "end of the disk." If the next file will fit in the empty space, it is moved down; but if it won't fit, it is also moved to the end of the disk and the next file is moved down. A fragmented file "low" on the disk means that every single file on the disk must be moved, even if only the first file on the disk was fragmented. This obviously will take some time on a large disk with a lot of files.

If you repeat the process a few times, the "low end" files that are likely to fragment will get moved out, and the further you can go before you start "moving everything over," the quicker you get done. Unfortunately, the "low end" of the disk is where all of the "system files" (links and logs, especially) usually start out - and these are ones most likely to be changed in routine operation.

Once most of the files on the disk are "in one piece," running defrag in Windows (with everything except Explorer and SysTray turned off) lets defrag go get one of those files that it moved to the end of the disk to "fill a gap" and avoid moving all the unfragmented files. It may still "thrash around" some on the low end of the disk, but large blocks of previously defragged stuff won't need to be moved, and things move along a little better. The first 20 to 30 percent or so will still take half the time (usually).

Congratulations on a significant accomplishment. Do it again fairly soon - and don't lose faith. A clean drive is "more better."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:37 PM

I use Win98SE, booted in safe mode. It's just frustrating to be without my machine for that long.

My worry is, what is we take a power hit while defragging?

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:44 PM

What I meant to say was:

I use Win98SE, booted in safe mode. It's just frustrating to be without my machine for that long.

My worry is, what is we take a power hit while defragging??

I'm not on an UPS, and summer storms frequently zap us. Even if I had a UPS, if I'm away, Will Defrag be cognizant of the power loss? (providing I've hooked the UPS to the serial port.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:51 PM

Wincing Devil -

Defrag can be interrupted without serious effects. There is a "suspend" and also a "stop" button in the Win98 defrag. If you stop a defrag before it finishes, it will complain about it; but you won't lose any information by doing so.

I can't say what the results would be if you run it a lot of times and never let it finish, but if you need to interrupt it when you don't feel safe leaving it running, you're not going to hurt anything by doing it once or twice.

There is always the possibility of "data loss" in a sudden "power outage," but unless you get one of the "super UPS" packages with a shutdown program, you don't get a lot of help with unattended shutdown. The simpler UPS will flash you a warning to stop programs and save - but if you're not there to do it, the machine will keep running on the battery until it "browns out," with the same result as if it just crashed (or worse).

I can't find anything on the newer versions, but older defrag programs always (1) read a file, (2) wrote the file somewhere, (3) updated the FAT, (4) deleted the original file. This way the file was (is??) always written somewhere on the drive, and the FAT always pointed to a valid copy. Loss from a "power event" would be "zero" - if this is still the case. A "duplicate file" which might happen, would just be "lost clusters" when you ran the next ScanDisk, since the FAT wouldn't know about it.

If your thunderstorms are like the ones in Kansas, it is critical that you plug your equipment in through a good surge suppressor - on a circuit with a "valid" ground. The computer, and anything that connects to it like printers, scanners, etc should be connected through the surge suppressor (the same one, or "separate but equal" ones). Your POTS (plain old telephone system) modem should run through a "phone jack" circuit in the surge suppressor - the modem is much more sensitive to "surges" than the rest of the computer.

A simple power loss during defrag is not much more likely to cause a disaster than during other kinds of operation - which of course is not cause for "warm fuzzy feelings" about it. You have to decide what to risk, and when.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tech: Help: Rant: Argh! Ms Word meltdwn
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:16 AM

Oh, well, I know it had nothing to do with the defrag, but my hard drive died over the weekend. It froze up, I tried to Ctrl-Alt-Del to reboot, but (as I've done many times before) I had to power down. When it started to boot back up, Instead of the Win98 start up screen, I got a text message "Operating System Not Found" I went into setup, and it didn't even see the Hard Drive. Luckily, I'd always backed up the most critical data, but all my emails, all my kitty pictures that did'nt get put up on the web, all my bookmarks... digital toast. Well, at least my wife still loves me (I hope!)