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Help: Translation needed: Can y melinydd
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Subject: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 28 Jun 02 - 07:12 AM Hi all, I tried to find a translation of the Welsh song "Can y melinydd" on the Web, but didn't find any. If anyone of you could help me out that would be great! Thanks!!! Maddie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:12 AM Did you want a singable translation (if so, I probably don't have one, but I could look when I get home)? Otherwise, it depends on what verses you have. Here are some:
Mae gen i dy cysurus I have a cosy little house, and a new mill, and three dappled cows grazing on the hill.
Chorus Weli di, weli di, Mari fach Do you see, Do you see, Little Mari etc.
Mae gen i drol a cheffyl I have a cart and horse and a neat little pony, and ten fat sheep and a pig in the sty.
Mae gen i gwpwr cornel I have a corner cupboard full of a tea set (dishes) and a dresser in the kitchen and everything in its place.
I have a yellow cold with four prancing feet (bit of poetic licence on my part there) and four silver shoes on his four feet.
Mae genni iar a cheiliog, I have a chicken and a cockerel and a cow and a fat pit and, between my wife and I, we do alright.
Fe aeth yr iar i rodio, Now just watch ... someone will beat me to this! I'm never fast enough! sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: MMario Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:34 AM *grin* A singable translation would be fantastic if you can find one. Can anyone post the tune? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:51 AM There's this one (if it works!) ... but I think the tune kinda gets lost in the rendition. Also, there are a WHOLE lot of spelling mistakes in the text... says she who just noticed that she left out a letter above (3rd verse should be "cwpwrdd cornel", although when sung, some people might not actually pronounce the "dd") Oh, if the BCT doesn't work, it's angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/folk-kelt/melinydd sian
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: MMario Date: 28 Jun 02 - 09:55 AM grazie! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:56 AM Sian and all others, thank you! I love this place!!!! The version I have has your fourth, fifth and sixth verse and none of the others. I have one last question, though: What does the title mean exactly? "Song of...?" And, by the way, I think we should put the song and its translation into the Digitrad. It's too good to leave it out! As for a singable translation - yes, that would be great, too! I'd like to sing that song without butchering the Welsh language :-)
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: MMario Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:03 PM I will submit it after Sian has had a chance to check for the singable translation. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 28 Jun 02 - 04:04 PM It's "Song of the Miller" ... so really the first verse should be sung. Where did you get your version? I'll take a look this weekend for info on it and get back to you. sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 28 Jun 02 - 07:00 PM Sian, that yellow cold sounds a bit messy! you should take something for it, cariad. BJ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 29 Jun 02 - 03:49 AM Sian, I got the version from Alan Stivell. I really wonder why he left out the first verses! It doesn't make much sense without them, indeed. Thanks for your help! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 29 Jun 02 - 03:34 PM Oh, dear. Yellow cold eh? Yep ... I can relate! And I haven't found a singable translation. All I've found is a short note on the song: originally known as To^n y Melinydd (Tune of...) first published in Gems of Welsh Melody 1862. "Mae gennyf dy^ gysurus" was written by a famous Welsh poet, Talhaiarn - then called Ca^n y Melinydd. The verse "Mae gen i ebol melyn" is traditional, and some of the others were written by another poet, Rhuddenfab. So, you're thinking of singing it in Welsh? Hmmm. I'm thinking that might make another thread ... I'm not meaning to be unkind, but I've been in an audience where people have sung in a language which they don't understand and it's been painful to say the least. But then, we don't make singable English translations available (for whatever reason) so ... Catch 22? sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 30 Jun 02 - 03:03 AM Thanks for the info, Sian! Don't worry, I'm not going to sing it in Welsh, for exactly those reasons. Since there is no singable translation, I'll just play it as an instrumental... But thank you anyway, at least I now know what that guy is singing! :-) Maddie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 30 Jun 02 - 11:07 AM Glad you accepted the comment as it was meant. Plenty of good Welsh tunes to be had - what instrument do you play? sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 30 Jun 02 - 12:07 PM I play the guitar, alto recorder, tinwhistle, fife, and rudimentary harmonica. I think "Can y melinydd" would be fine for the tinwhistle. Sadly, it's the only Welsh tune I know so far - can you recommend others? I love learning new tunes! Maddie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: ciarili Date: 30 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM Mad Maudlin,
have you ever had any foreign language classes, esp. any that require you to pronounce your consonants differently (e.g., Sanskrit)? I've never had a gaelic teacher, but I'd had German, Italian, Latin, French, and a little Sanskrit and set about teaching myself some Irish and Gàidhlig. (It was easy to understand the broads & slenders, esp. after the incredible variety of consonants you find in Sanskrit!) I totally freaked some guys from Donegal, who thought, after hearing me sing 6 or 7 songs from that area, that I was
ciarili |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:10 AM MM, you should get hold of a copy of Blodau'r Grug: 100 Popular Welsh Folk Dance Tunes. From what I see at Amazon and elsewhere, it is 'currently unavailable' but I think that a lot of Welsh book shops still have copies about. Try Siop y Werin (Hope the clicky works!) if you want one. I gave a N.Irish co-worker a copy and she thought it was great! There are a lot of Welsh songs and tunes at this site but there seem to be a number of typos in the texts, and some of the arrangements, although lovely, tend to obscure the tune - not great if you're new to them. Also, the timing is off in some. And I can't figure out why "Silver Threads Among the Gold" and "Nearer my God to Thee" are included! But still, an impressive collection. Check out "Pan gyfyd yr heulwen", "Merch Megan", "Mi dderbyniais bwt o lythyr" and "O gwrandaw, y beraidd fwyalchen" ... all of which I quite like. Re: ciarili's points, I don't disagree that someone with a fine ear and experience of languages can deliver a song in a language which they don't understand, but they are few and far between. I also wouldn't be 100 per cent confident in learning from books and records. There are some people recording these days who promote themselves as 'Welsh' singers but who are either learners or have learned songs parrot-fashion ... and I can't for the life of me work out what they're singing. And sometimes I even know the songs! I don't suppose you really want to get into this seriously but... there are lots of Welsh classes around, on both sides of the Atlantic, and lots of individuals who will coach on pronunciation. I have a friend in Oregon who will be competing in the Folk Song Category at this year's National Eisteddfod, and she's worked on her pronunciation by weekly phone calls to a friend here in Wales. So ... it can be done, but takes more commitment than some singers are willing to undertake. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your playing and the above sites are of some use! sian
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 01 Jul 02 - 02:33 PM Thanks for the clickies, Sian! Ciarili, since German is my native language, tricky sounds are no problem for me :-) But I'd really feel uncomfortable about singing in a language I don't speak. Maybe I'll take Welsh classes one day, though...could be very interesting, and I love languages anyway. Maddie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 01 Jul 02 - 04:57 PM well, German would be an excellent base for singing Welsh. Where do you live now? sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: ciarili Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:47 PM I guess I forgot to mention the part about working out the meaning of the words as well. I always do, and I've got something of a recognition vocabulary as a result. I just take it so much for granted that someone would do that. It takes hours with a dictionary and plenty of patience, but it's SO worth the effort! I gotta get round to learning some Welsh.... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 02 Jul 02 - 10:32 AM Sian, I still live in Germany. I don't think there will be many Welsh courses offered here...but I'll keep an eye open, you never know!
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:00 AM Possibly not a lot ... but I wouldn't bet on there being none! I know there's a Polish university teaching Welsh so ... If you want to know if there are any Welsh-speakers near you, you could always try Wales International (through the Hon. Secretary, Bryan Jones. He knows who's where. And then there are on-line resources like this one. Everyone's got to start somewhere! sian
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jul 02 - 06:02 AM The 'yellow cold' sounds interesting, and I was waiting for Sian to point out that it was a typo. Even from the context you can see it should be 'Yellow Colt' (ebol = colt or foal) I have PMd Sian with a possibly singable translation, keeping to the scansion and (limited) rhyme scheme. I'm waiting for a reply and some clarification before putting it here though. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jul 02 - 06:36 AM I've just PMd you back,Nigel! Really good work, there. We await the finished product with baited breath! sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jul 02 - 06:45 AM I'm working on it. Fully reliant on Sian's Welsh, so this is a co-op translation. Whilst Sian's Welsh is better than mine, I would point out that it is "With bated breath". A cat eats cheese and then waits at the mousehole with 'baited' breath !! Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jul 02 - 06:49 AM OK. sheesh. sian
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM Hmmm...I kind of like "baited breath"! How do you know it wasn't baited for you, Nigel? :-D But I'm looking forward to your translation, too - can't wait until it's finished! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: MMario Date: 03 Jul 02 - 08:36 AM *tension builds* :) Seriously - here again is one of the best facets of the MudCat - not that this couldn't happen elsewhere - but watching the process is fascinating! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jul 02 - 02:56 PM O.K. still waiting for corrections/preferences from Sian, but, for what it's worth, (as a work in progress) here's the (scanning) translation. I have a cosy cottage , A newly builded mill. And three contented dappled cows Are grazing on the hill. Chorus Do you see? do you see? little one Do you see my Mari dear ? I have a horse and wagon A pony, small, with grace. And ten well-fed and woolly sheep A sty with pig in place. I have a corner cupboard, With china for our tea A dresser in the kitchen And all placed tidily I have a golden filly She rises well, and moves- With four grand silver horse shoes Upon her four stout hooves I have a hen and cock'rel A fattened pig and cow My wife is ever by (at?) my side So we do alright now. The cock'rel went a'walking To Arfon far last week And came back home at daybreak, With Snowdon in his beak. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jul 02 - 03:03 PM Any improvements/suggestions for the above need to be incorporated before 'harvesting' Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: MMario Date: 03 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM I'll wait to harvest until I get the go ahead. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Jul 02 - 03:20 PM 'Woolly' in V2 needs to be put to the two notes used for the first syllable of 'Brithion' in V1 of the original. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Jul 02 - 04:30 PM Well, I like it a lot! Of course, only Sian and you can decide whether it's true to the original or not, but I think it's very good! Congratulations! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:06 AM Sorry, I had great problems getting on-line last night so this is my first chance to get back! I think the translation is great! From my mental singing of it, "woolly sheep" fit the 3 note for "brithion" just fine. (I like that line particularly.) I'm still mulling over "so we do alright now" in the penultimate verse. I know that I used 'alright' in my outline translation, but does it 'sing' properly? I don't think I can distance myself enough to have a clear opinion. I'm also wondering about the chorus - and I know that the current version has already taken one of my suggestions on board. On the final, "Do you see my Mari dear", "my" would get the top sustained (and following) note. In Welsh, the "Mari" would be there. The English could be, "Do you see Ma-a-ri (3 notes) my dear" or skip the "my" and sing "Mari, Mari dear". What do the rest of you think? Excellent work, Nigel. And it IS mostly yours - I've only made a few minor suggestions! sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 05:20 AM Having read through Nigel's PMs it suddenly struck me that if this thing is going to be 'harvested' I'd better make a 'clean' copy of the Welsh - with accents and corrected spelling. I think I've caught them all so ... Cân y Melinydd
Mae gen i dy^ cysurus Originally known as Tôn y Melinydd (Tune of...) first published in "Gems of Welsh Melody 1862". "Mae gennyf dy^ gysurus" was written by a famous Welsh poet, Talhaiarn - after which it was called Cân y Melinydd. The verse "Mae gen i ebol melyn" is traditional, and some of the others were written by another poet, Rhuddenfab. sian
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:12 AM As Siân says, it is difficult to be objective from up-close. I'm not too keen on that penultimate verse either, One alternative could be I have a hen and cock'rel A cow, and fatted swine My wife is ever at my side And so, we're doing fine. Whilst avoiding the 'doing alright' cliche, I am worried that people running lines together will get the wrong sense from "A cow, and fatted swine, My wife..." As before, comments and suggestions are heartily welcomed Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:22 AM I think "Mari, Mari dear" will sing fine - in fact, I've just tried it (thank goodness I live alone :-) and it works perfectly! I'll think about another solution for the penultimate verse, and if I find a good one, I'll post it here. Maddie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:28 AM LOL! I hadn't thought of the "swine - my wife" problem! Reminds me of a song we used to use in 'folk services' in the 60s about the Wedding Feast of Canna (Cana?) "I cannot come to the banquet, don't bother me now, I have married a wife, I have bought me a cow" except someone in the choir got it mixed up - "bought me a wife, I have married a cow" and DO YOU THINK we could get it out of our heads after that??? We even slipped in performances! Well - it was one way of finding out if the congregation were paying attention. I'm stumped on the last line so I'll give m'self a wee rest and come back fresh. sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:37 AM The original looks even worse, an admission of infertility! "And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come."(Luke 14:20 King James Version) Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:51 AM I have a hen and cock'rel A cow, fat pig as well My wife is ever at my side And so, we're doing well(/swell?).
Nigel
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 07:58 AM Me again, With the 'normal' pronounciation of 'cockerel' the last two lines could become My wife is ever at my side, And life is never dull Whilst departing slightly from a strict translation, it does seem to lead on to the whimsicality of the final verse! Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 08:16 AM I quite like that 'never dull'! I think it fits the mindset of the song - the jolly miller idea, but the scansion is, indeed, slightly ear-bending. I like the biblical quote even better. It also gave me to remember an earlier line from the same song (above) which used to crack us up as teenagers - "A certain man held a feast on his fine estate in town; he laid a festive table and wore a wedding gown ..." What the heck - it still cracks me up! sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Snuffy Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:28 AM Try just turning the third line round - doesn't affect the rhyming.
I have a hen and cock'rel WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:32 AM Snuffy: Thanks, we'll include it in the considerations. (why didn't I spot that?) "You see, we're doing fine" ? Next you'll suggest that we replace "You see" with "Look you" !! Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:38 AM I'm still trying to warm to 'swine'. So far ... Nada. Reminds me of Swine Fever.... sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Snuffy Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM Have to be a bit more radical if you don't like warm swine! But it's a bit farther away from the original.
I have a hen and cock'rel WassaiL! V |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 10:08 AM Back, I think to my first 'take' on it, which will only require a re-write of the last line, e.g. I have a hen and cock'rel A fattened pig and cow With my wife ever at my side My life seems perfect now. last line might still need a re-write. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 10:57 AM Nigel, I think we are very close to lift-off. "With my wife ever" doesn't quite fit the rhythm to my mind, but "And with my wife here by my side" would 'slip trippingly off the tongue'. IMHO, that is. sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM Nice to know we cracked 6 of the 7 verses virtually at the first attempt though. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 04 Jul 02 - 01:55 PM My two cents...how about this:
I have a hen and cockerel, Please feel free to comment and push the words around - but this is fun, really! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM OK ... I think I like that. How does it sound to other singers ... ? As I said to Nigel (in a PM, I think) it's a good thing we don't also have to be Politically Correct in our translations! Ah, the good old days! sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Mad Maudlin Date: 04 Jul 02 - 04:55 PM Thank you, glad you like it! Politically correct - ugh! "an obese pig and a cow" just doesn't scan...:-) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 04 Jul 02 - 06:29 PM Great work Nigel -- thanks for the PM. Unfortunately I just can't separate the references to the cow and the wife now! How about: I have a cow and a cockerel Some piglets and a hen A wife to keep me warm at night I'm the happiest of men ("I'm the" would need to be run together to scan) BJ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:05 AM Bullfrog: thanks for the input, but I think we'll probably go with Maudlin's. The "wife to keep me warm at night" is a nice idea, but not in keeping with a translation of a C19th poem. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Help: Translation needed: 'Can y melinydd' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:39 AM This thread is now moved to Lyr Add: Cân y milenydd Any new posts or comments there please. Thread closed Ta Nigel |
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