BS: What is a Coward?

Subject: What is a Coward?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 07:55 AM

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a coward is:

A person who shows unworthy fear in the face of danger, pain, or difficulty; a person with little or no courage

The 9/11 perpetrators have often been described as 'cowardly' but, whatever you think of them, their actions would certainly not fit the above definition.

What gives?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:31 AM

According to the only dictionary I have to hand, The Chambers Concise, the word 'coward' is "often applied to one who, whether courageous or not, brutally takes advantage of the weak". Sounds about right to me.
BJ

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:46 AM

I cannot see how that extension of the word is justifiable. It undercuts the whole meaning of the word. What happens is that when we are looking for a word that insults, this is a word that comes to mind. It's lazy language and lazy thinking.

Since people do use the word with this distorted meaning, and dictionaries should reflect actual usage, it's right a dictionary should include it - but in the same way that a comprehensive dictionary definition of the word "bad" should take into account the fact that it is sometimes used with the meaning "good".

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:36 AM

It is an interesting question which action can be called 'cowardly attack'. We have exactly the same problem in German. As soon as someone (often: a politician) calls a terrorist action 'feige' (cowardly) someone comes up pointing out that a terrorist who is sure to die during his attack can be called nearly any name but not a 'coward'.

See, e.g., McGrath making that point two years ago here when a suicide bomber was called 'coward' by a Mudcatter. The use of 'coward(ly)' in the criticised sense, however, is widespread as you can see easily by looking at the many 9/11 threads here (they are linked in one thread which makes the study easy). Both British and American Mudcatters have used the word in that sense.

I think (though I am not sure at all for my knowledge in etymology is quite restricted) that to call the WTC attack an action of cowards uses the older and first sense of the word coward (not all dictionaries mention that sense). The word comes from an old Norse word and the original sense is slightly better preserved in the verb 'to cower'. As far as I know the old word just meant to squat, e.g. behind something. Now, fear is one reason to cower (in the old sense), another is not to be seen when preparing an attack (which itself may involve a big personal risk and even result in sure death).

A 'cowardly attack' in the old sense is just an attack that comes as a complete surprise for the attacked, an attack that comes from someone who went to great lengths not to be spotted before attacking. Such attackers are often not cowards in the newer sense, but cowards in the older sense of attacking unsuspecting victims in a surprise attack.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM

Whether you like it or not, the language is constantly evolving with use, so that words can stray a long way from their original meanings. Having said that, I don't think that this is such a stretch. You could be the bravest man in the world, but if you sneak up behind someone and hit them round the head with a baseball bat, isn't that a cowardly attack?
BJ

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:14 AM

Suicide in general, whether as a form of terrorism or of the plain old garden variety, is a double-edged sword. The actual performance of the act does require a great amount of courage. Death is the great unknown territory. To willingly go there is not something most of us are willing to do. On the other hand, it is a cowardly act because the suicide escapes responsibility for the consequences of his/her actions. Dead people cannot be (meaningfully) tried in a court of law, nor can they be compelled to pay their Visa bill.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:21 AM

Guest - Are you trying to say that these were brave men of honor ? Or are you just trying to start an argument?

Ironic that a discussion of cowardice be started by someone unwilling to use their name.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:34 AM

Speaking of irony and trying to find a song angle, the well known opening lines from an Irish song of resistance,

Who fears to speak of Ninety-Eight?
Who blushes at the name?
When cowards mock the patriots' fate,
Who hangs his head for shame?

were first published - anonymously (then, I mean, now the author is known).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:47 AM

Saying someone is not a coward is not saying the same as that they are "brave men of honour".

The trouble is that people do seem to make this kind of leap. There were plenty of murderous and totally evil people in Nazi Germany or in the troubles in Bosnia, for example, who did appalling and vicious things, but were in no normal sense cowards.

Language does change, but the danger with this kind of blurring of meaning, where the same word is carried over into a meaning almost diametrically opposed is that it can still carry with it unchanged and unexamined assumptions.

If you describe people as cowards in this strange sense which has nothing to do with fear or self-preservation, there is a real risk of slipping into the presumption that the right way to deal with them might be the way that would be appropriate in dealing with someone who is a coward in the more traditional sense. And that is really not very sensible, and is liable to cause serious difficulties and dangers.

Wolfgang's suggestion about "coward" as having an original meaning to do with secrecy is interesting - and it ties in with the word "covert" which has that same meaning today, and which I believe is cognate. But I think if "covert operations", for example by the SAS, were described as "cowardly operations" that would be a bit misleading. Even when these might involve sneaking up behind a sentry, for example, and hitting them on the head or slitting their throat, in the course of a potential suicide mission.

It does seem to me the word "cowardly" in this context is just being used as an all purpose expression of anger. We need to pick our insults more accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:50 AM

This subject cost Politically Incorrect's Bill Maher his television show. He had argued that the one thing the suicide pilots were not was cowardly, that it takes less bravery to sit in a plane or an office and push a button that kills your target.

Immediately a lot of his sponsors withdrew their ads, and given ABC's reaction, Maher knew that his tenure was nearing its end. It was an interesting six months or so before the axe fell.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:45 AM

There are any number of ways one could define it...

It is cowardly to delay and keep putting off some necessary and desirable action, merely because it involves: difficulty, time, minor suffering, hard work, etc. We are pretty well all guilty of such cowardice at times, and it's one of the great problems in everyone's life.

It is cowardly to avoid taking responsibility for one's own actions...like you inadvertently damage someone's property, and then you sneak off in order to avoid the consequences. Again, most of us have probably done that at some point, using the excuse that it was a "small matter" anyway. Well, small to us...

One could make the point that it is cowardly for generals to send soldiers to almost certain death while they are sitting somewhere safely behind the lines. That can be debated from many angles. There are often good reasons why a general needs to be "behind the lines", and at the same time, the better officers are unquestionably those who lead by example and expose themselves regularly to danger...as did Rommel and Patton, to mention two.

It is cowardly to bully people, but bullies don't think of themselves as cowards. Big problem in school!

To attack people by stealth does seem cowardly to me, all right, but it's the only way to go if you're a sniper...or a hunter...so then what? The more successful fighter pilots always attempted to take their targets by surprise...that was the standard tactic...and it was definitely the wise thing to do in air combat. Ditto for submarines, etc.

Of course attacking an opposing soldier on a battlefield is a long way from bopping a civilian over the head in peacetime and stealing his wallet...although the end result may be rather similar for the one targeted. The opposing soldier, after all, is looking for a chance to do the same thing to you.

One sees the word "cowardly" being tossed around all the time in the news whenever something violent has been done by "the other guys". This is pretty hypocritical, but it's predictable. The intention is to indulge the public's feelings of fear and hatred, and engender public support for further military responses and escalations. This is unfortunate and unproductive, but my saying so is not going to stop it from continuing to happen.

One of the classic examples of that was the completely false story spread about "cowardly" Iraqui soldiers killing babies in incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital prior to the Gulf War. It never happened, but the story swung public support in America in favour of launching that war.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 03:57 PM

McGrath of Harlow said:

"I cannot see how that extension of the word is justifiable."

Only trouble is, language changes CONSTANTLY, and is not bound by logic or justification. Most dictionaries today see their function mainly as being descriptive rather than prescriptive; that is, they tell you what meanings are being ascribed to the referent word rather than telling you how it ought to be understood.

This approach to language is highly uncomfortable to many who love language--including the undersigned. We really want to have the meaning of a word today mean what it always used to mean, and to mean what the word's history would indicate it to mean. But it's the actual usage by the whole English-speaking people that decides the meaning of a word--in this case, "coward"--and justifiability has nothing to do with it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:04 PM

"Are you trying to say that these were brave men of honor ?"

One mans hero is another mans terrorist...

Another sound byte that I recall from somewhere...

"It isn't brave if you're not scared."

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:14 PM

One of the best descriptions I've read is from Dick Francis, in the person of one of his fictional characters: Fear in the presence of danger is normal. Absence of fear is not. Keeping one's head in spite of fear is courage.

Since I would oppose cowardice and courage, I would claim that a coward is someone who allows their fear (of a real danger) to rule their behavior. This would not apply to a suicide attacker unless you claim that they were afraid to live. I've never understood why something you wouldn't do is considered cowardly.

Meanwhile, what is the word in English for excessively modest in the sense of being really overly protective of the sight of one's body? I thought the word was Prude, but I called an incredibly modest (not in the sense of accomplishment) friend prudish and was told that was terrifically insulting, while all I meant to do was describe his hebavior. What is the descriptive term?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM

I agree the language changes - but I don't think it actually has here. The basic meaning of "coward" still implies someone who avoids the consequences of their own actions as a way of protecting themselves. That is why it is an effective insult.

It doesn't mean the same as wicked person, or bully, and if it gets taken over to mean that, what other word do we still have to describe a coward in that basic sense? I suggest that when it is used just to mean "I think this person is so wicked I want to use the worst insult I have against him", it's being used rhetorically and loosely, and without any real change or development of meaning.

One problem is that so many other words that have been used to condemn actions or people have been taken over a ways of expressing some kind of admiration. When people say that something is bad, wicked, evil, mean, even cruel, and it is quite likely that they are actually praising it.

"Cowardly" is one of the few insulting or condemning words that haven't been made almost useless by this kind of development of language. The result is that in this kind of situation, people reach for it, even though it is totally inappropriate.

There are still a few others, and I think it's better to use them, and keep "cowardly" for the many situations where it is appropriate. For example where people send others into danger but make sure to keep themselves safe.

"Despicable" is still a word that hasn't lost its force, and I think that would be a better one to reach for in face of atrocities where the perpetrators are clearly not concerned to save their own skins.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:49 PM

McGrath - Very interesting how the words like "wicked, brutal, bad" and so on have been turned around in the commn vernacular! I think this has been largely driven by a totally cynical entertainment media who have decided that "attitude" sells...particularly to young males. The commercial system will pander to anything whatsoever if they think it can increase their profit line. This in turn encourages a sort of brutalization of consciousness in the general public.

One of the things I loved about Cuba (where there is virutally no commercial advertising) was the good manners, good attitude, friendliness, and common courtesy of most people, and this was particularly noticeable in the young. It reminded me of the way North America was a long, long time ago...when traditional values were still strong and marketing directed at teenagers had not taken over society.

"Despicable" is a perfect word by which to define extremely antisocial acts, while "cowardly" often as not misses the point.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:50 PM

Probably one of the reasons people want to describe them as cowardly is because it is a given that among their own people they will be portrayed as heroes full of bravery, which is the opposite of being a coward.

It is also that we have become so lazy with our adjectives. My dad, granddad, or even The Virginian (:-) would have been much more colourful with something more along the lines of yellow-bellied, lily-livered, side-winding, no-account, worthless son of a gun. Even that is not as eloquent as they would be as I do not have their skill. Theirs was a world of language - the most important medium. Now, we live in a world of images and sound bytes and it is our loss, imo.

In my grandfather's old dictionary set from 1894, The Modern World Dictionary of the English Language, it gives the general term of being timid, cowering, tail-between-the-legs definition, but it also lists to make coward, to intimidate. To illustrate it, they use a quote from Henry V: "That hath so cowarded and chased your blood
Out of appearance?"

Obscure, I know, but still interesting.

Other synonyms listed include: pusillanimous, craven, faint-hearted, timid, spiritless, mean...

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:56 PM

LH, I am quite thankful we do not live in an age which still touts such "traditional" values as the Marlboro Man and Donna Reed moms, etc. Make no mistake, those commercials were aimed at children, too, and are part of the reason so many women who grew up in the 50's and 60's became smokers...there were many types of cigarette commericials which were aimed at young women and their mothers.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Mudlark
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:14 PM

Kat...Pusillanimous! Now THAT is a great synonym for despicable. Maybe it's old-fashioned, no longer in style, but it really SOUNDS bad....

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:30 PM

Yeah, Mudlark, I've always loved the sound of that word...just starting with pus makes 'em sound bad, doesn't it?!*bg*

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: GUEST,Timmy Atkons
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:08 PM

Alas! during my military service I was not brave enough to be a coward.
A poltroon I yearned to be but could not find within me the
'red badge of courage' I needed to head for them 'green hills of home'.
TA..

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:51 PM

Is a coward also a person ashamed of his or her own name who starts this trollish events and doesn't stay around for a stand up fight or honest debate?

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:06 PM

Kat - Couldn't agree more with you about the Marlboro Man and the Donna Reed moms... :-) We have progressed quite well in some respects.

I pretty much dislike ALL advertising, but specially that which focuses on legal drugs, fast foods, pharmaceutical products, clothing, cars, politics, sports equipment, and musical promotions.

The general rule in life is this: if it's in a TV ad, you most likely don't need it! If it's something you actually do need, it's not in a TV ad.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:09 PM

Yep, exactly, LH, no argument from me, even though, in an indirect way, that is what has always put food on our table and a roof over our heads, Rog keeping the tv stations on the air and all.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:22 PM

Oh, I see...well, life is weird, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:36 PM

Well, yeah, and I realise that sounded kind of grandiose, didn't it? I just meant that his work has always been as a broadcast engineer and I used to sell adverts, so...sorry for the thread drift, phoaks...

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 08:49 AM

Consider that the people who designed the occurences of 9/11 were not the ones to carry it out. *They* are the cowards. They hide in caves and sacrifice others (sometimes the very young) for their cause and their own safety. They have camps to train small children to grow up "martyrs". How else do you describe these actions but the actions of cowardice?

The word I want defined is "Martyr". Since when did a Martyr set out to kill *others* whilst taking their own life? The people martyred in history have been those who stuck to their beliefs and were killed for them. As far as I know, murder wasn't a qualifying characteristic.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 09:13 AM

As one who would avoid violence in an unworthy cause, I would be proud to accept that nomenclature.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 09:17 AM

It is also one who ards cows. As with cocaine, it feels good but don't get caught.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 12:28 PM

The suicide bombers were said to have been brave because "Death is the great unknown territory", and they went willingly. Yet every indication is that, to them, Death was anything but unknown territory. It was a land in which they hoped to dwell in splendor as martyrs for Allah.

I don't agree that these men were, in the common use of the term, "cowards". Despicable misguided fanatics, slaughterers of the innocent, yes. Timothy McVeigh might appropriately be called a coward, since he planted his bomb and fled. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor might be called cowardly, because it was an unprovoked sneak attack on an unsuspecting navy. And, yes, Bin Laden and the planners of 9-11 could accurately be described in such a term.

"Heroes" is also a term applied without a great deal of thought. Those who died in the the Twin Towers are often called heroes, but most were only unsuspecting victims. After the attack, some performed acts of heroism by leading others to safety etc, but they were in the minority. Were all of the firefighters and policemen who died "heroes"? Certainly some were. Those who had witnissed the collapse of the first tower and continued to perform rescue efforts were certainly heroic. But what about those who had no concept of the actual danger of the situation at the beginning of the event? Heroism is a state of nobility achieved by the actions of the hero. It is not within the power of George Bush, the Press, or anyone else to bestow it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 01:08 PM

Good points, LEJ. One response though...by your definition of the Pearl Harbour attack, I would have to say that the attack of the Cuban exiles at the Bay of Pigs was also "an unprovoked sneak attack". Does this label it as "cowardly"?

You can argue that it was provoked by various of Castro's policies, but you can make that same argument regarding Pearl Harbour, and the foreign policy of FDR in the early 40's.

The US Navy, also, was FAR from unsuspecting...they just didn't know exactly when and where the blow would fall, and they greatly underestimated the capabilities of the Japanese Naval Air Force.

The real unspoken message in all of it is this: "Our guys don't do sneak attacks. Theirs do." I'm not accusing you of such self-serving propaganda, but I am accusing governments of it...all of them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 08:37 PM

All firefighters are heroes, by definition. It's part of the job requirement.

They know that every day they may have to risk their lives to save other people, and they choose to accept that duty. That makes them heroes in my book.

Being complicated human beings, of course they might be cowards in other ways - being a hero and a coward aren't exclusive, you can be both at the same time, or at different times.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Coward?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 11:34 PM

Well penned, McGrath. I'd say you hit that nail on the head. Bravery is not the absence of fear, and cowardice is not the absence of bravery. I'd say it has to do with what you do, not how you feel, on both counts.