Origin: After the Ball (from Frances Black)

Subject: RE: Complete tune - After the Ball
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 25 Jan 00 - 03:51 PM

Wasn't it Mary Black who had a no 1 hit (in Ireland) with it in the early 90's???

Mary Kate

Subject: RE: Complete tune - After the Ball
From:
Date: 25 Jan 00 - 05:48 PM

One of the Blacks, with the group Arcady, did the song. Beautiful rendition.

Subject: RE: Complete tune - After the Ball
From: GUEST,stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybetter
Date: 25 Jan 00 - 05:58 PM

Arcady recorded it on their 1st release entitled (appropriately) After the Ball. Frances Black sings it. Mary Black does some backing vocals ,but they are really low in the mix. I believe there are some other lyrics in Rise Up Singing. At any rate the CD is definitely worth getting.

Subject: RE: Complete tune - After the Ball
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 00 - 07:42 PM

I have this on an old 78 by Vernon Dalhart

Subject: RE: Complete tune - After the Ball
From: GUEST,PJ Curtis(Ireland)
Date: 26 Jan 00 - 04:29 PM

Yes, it was indeed Frances Black who recorded 'After The Ball' on Arcady's debut album. I produced the album and brought the song to Frances which ultimately became very successful for her and is also on the 'A Woman's Heart' comp CD. I found that version on an album by the Blue Sky Boys(The Bolick Bros) on an old Rounder album. PJC

Subject: Lyr Add: AFTER THE BALL
From: bernil
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 04:36 PM

I just love to listen to After the ball with Frances Black (from the CD A Woman's Heart) and that's no problem. But there's a problem anyway, as I love to sing it too and would like to sing the text she sings! I've found a version that's very close to the one she sings but there are some differences. I've copied it, tried to make the changes as I understand them, guessed some words and put ? for words I can't guess.

Can somebody help me to fill in the missing words and correct it if something is wrong? I guess many of you have this wonderful record!

(I hope I remembered how to do the line breaks. I don't write song texts here very often...)

------------------

AFTER THE BALL

VERSE 1
A little maiden, climbs on an old man's knee
Begs for a story, do uncle please
Why are you lonely, why do you ?
Have you no sweetheart, have you no home?
I had a sweetheart, long, long ago
Why we were not wed you soon will know
List(en) to my story, I'll tell it all
I broke her heart, pet, after the ball

CHORUS:
After the ball is over
Just at the break of dawn
After the dance is ending
And all the stars are gone
Many's the ? ? aching
If you could read them all
Many's ? ? that's vanished
After the ball

VERSE 2
? lights were shining, in the big ballroom
Softly the organ, was playing a tune
There stood my sweetheart, my love, my own
I wished some water, leave me alone (?)
When I returned, ?, there stood a man
Kissing my sweetheart, as lovers can
Down went the glass, pet, broken that's all (?)
Just like my heart was, after the ball

CHORUS

VERSE 3
Many years have gone by, I have not wed
Due to my first love, though she is dead
She tried to tell me, tried to explain
I would not listen, ? in vain ?
One day a letter came from this man
He was her brother, the letter ran
That's why I'm lonely, no home at all
I broke her heart then, after the ball.

----------------------------

Thanks a lot in advance!
Berit in Sweden

Separate posts combined by JoeClone

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 04:47 PM

A little maiden climbed an old man's knees—
Begged for a story: "Do uncle, please!
Why are you single, why live alone?
Have you no babies, have you no home?"

Chorus:

After the ball is over, after the break of morn,
After the dancers' leaving, after the stars are gone,
Many a heart is aching, if you could read them all—
Many the hopes that have vanished after the ball.

"I had a sweetheart, years, years ago,
Where she is now, pet, you will soon know;
List to the story, I'll tell it all:
I believed her faithless after the ball."

Chorus:

"Bright lights were flashing in the grand ballroom,
Softly the music playing sweet tunes.
There came my sweetheart, my love, my own,
'I wish some water; leave me alone.'

Chorus:

When I returned, dear, there stood a man
Kissing my sweetheart as lovers can.
Down fell the glass, pet, broken, that's all—
Just as my heart was after the ball."

Chorus:

"Long years have passed, child, I have never wed,
True to my lost love though she is dead.
She tried to tell me, tried to explain—
I would not listen, pleadings were vain.

Chorus:

One day a letter came from that man;
He was her brother, the letter ran.
That's why I'm lonely, no home at all—
I broke her heart, pet, after the ball."

Chorus:

After the ball is over, after the break of morn,
After the dancers' leaving, after the stars are gone,
Many a heart is aching, if you could read them all—
Many the hopes that have vanished after the ball.

the most popular song of the 1890s sold millions of copies of sheet music required at every dance

music & lyrics by Charles K. Harris

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 04:56 PM

in th thread on soundtracks I mention Louis Malle's film 'pretty Baby'. There is a great jazz instrumental version of this song on that soundtrack.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: bernil
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:03 PM

Thanks Bill, that solved some of my problems. She sings some things different though but I may not get closer than this.

By the way, I know how to make line breaks. But I seemed to be asleep when I sent those messages...

/Berit

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:03 PM

The sheet music (not the first edition, though published the same year as the first) is at the Levy collection (CLICK HERE):

Title: After the Ball.
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Arr. by Jos. Clauder. Words and Music by Chas. K. Harris.
Chas. K. Harris Publication: Boston: Oliver Ditson Company, 453-463 Washington St., 1892.
Form of Composition: strophic with chorus
Instrumentation: piano and voice
First Line: A little maiden climbed an old man's knee
First Line of Chorus: After the ball is over, after the break of morn
Performer: As Sung by J. Aldrich Libbey, the Peerless Baritone in Hoyt's "A Trip to Chinatown."
Engraver, Lithographer, Artist: unattrib. photo of Libbey, and of Harris
Advertisement: ads on inside front, inside back, and on back covers for Oliver Ditson Company stock
Subject: Portraits
Subject: Storytelling
Subject: Courtship
Subject: Love
Subject: Ballroom dancing
Subject: Anger
Subject: Sadness
Subject: Families
Call No.: Box: 140 Item: 002

Joan Morris: After The Ball/Vaudeville Hlts [with sound clip] may be closest to the original version.

~Masato

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:23 PM

Fiddlin' John Carson And His Virginia Reelers' "After The Ball" (Realaudio; Recording Date: December 9, 1930) from Honkingduck.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM

It is many years since I played accompaniment for this song, but I do remember that Frances Black's version, at one point in the song, totally differs from the original version, (and not for the better).

No doubt I shall remember more fully in due course ...

Murray

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:12 PM

Bernil, I think Francis Black is singing Why do you roam?
Many's the heart that's aching
Many's the fond hope that's vanished

Low lights were shining
I wished some water, leaving alone
When I returned, Pet,
Down went the glass, Pet, broke in the fall
I would not listen, pleading in vain.

Hope this helps!! KT

Subject: Lyr Add: AFTER THE BALL (Frances Black)
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:26 PM

From The Frances Black Homepage:

After The Ball
Songwriter: Trad. Arr. P.J. Curtis

Lyrics:
A little maiden climbed an old man's knee
Begs for a story - "Do, uncle, please!"
Why are you lonely; why do you roam?
Have you no sweetheart; have you no home?"
"I had a sweetheart, long long ago;
Why we were not wed, you will soon know.
List to my story, I'll tell it all,
I broke her heart then, after the ball."
After the ball is over,
Just at the break of dawn
After the dance is ended;
And all the stars are gone;
Many is the heart tha'ts aching,
If you could read them all;
Many the hopes that have vanished
After the ball.

"Low lights were shining in the grand ballroom,
Softly the organ was playing the tunes.
There stood my sweetheart, my love, my own -
'I wished some water; leave me alone.'
When I returned, dear, there stood a man,
Kissing my sweetheart, as lovers can.
Down went the glass, pet, broken the fall
Just as my heart was, after the ball."
After the ball is over . . . .

"Many years have gone by, I've never wed
True to my first love, though she is dead.
She tried to tell me, tried to explain;
I would not listen, pleading in vain.
One day a letter came from this man,
He was her brother - the letter ran.
That's why I'm lonely, no home at all;
I broke her heart then after the ball."
After the ball is over . . . .

~Masato

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:54 PM

Joan Morris' "Vaudeville" and "After The Ball" (LP, CD) are treasure troves of music from this period. You can find them on Ebay if not in your local music store.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: bernil
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:03 AM

Thanks all, both Guest and Masato have now given me the exact text that Frances sings! It may be "wrong" or not so good but I want to sing with her until I've learned it! And thanks for the other tips about the song.

/Berit

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:13 AM

really sad that Frances Black would say 'songwriter Trad.'

Charles K. Harris wrote lyrics and melody, as stated in earlier post.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:21 AM

Surely one of the most beautiful song with one of the stupidest lyrics ever. Makes no sense. She doesn't have to "try" to tell him, plead or write letters, just say: "HE'S MY BROTHER, YOU DOPE". Why didn't she just write, "HE'S MY BROTHER" on a big card and dangle it in front of him? On the other hand, if she is kissing her brother the way lovers can, maybe he was well out of it.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:45 AM

You cynic, you ...

Murray

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM

Ever been madly in love, Peter T ?

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: bernil
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:44 AM

As for me I'm very sensitive and take everything very seriously so when I recently listened to and read the text carefully I started crying! It was such a terrible thought that a mistake could cause something so sad! I did not at all think about how stupid the text is! And when I read Peter T's message I had to laugh at myself! Ok, he may be cynical but what am I then? It feels like I'm kind of... Credulous? Uncritcal? Stupid? (could not even find the right Swedish word so I'm just guessing...) Well, it doesn't matter as I like to be emotional! :-)

Berit

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: kendall
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:17 PM

Many song lyrics are stupid, you just have to get over it and realize that stupid thoughts are easier to write into a song than complex problems.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:14 PM

Frances Black as I remember it doesn't sing the melody correctly. The song is a conversation between two people and the melody is different for both.... its always best refer to the original music when it exists .... rather than what is sung by a particular individual.... otherwise the song will get passed on to others wrongly.... as has happened with "The Rose of Allandale" and "When you were sweet sixteen"

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:39 PM

The song is based on a true story that took place in the upstairs ballroom of the Milwaukee Turners organization. The ballroom, which had been damaged by fire many, many years ago, has been recently restored.

Linn

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From:
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM

Bat Goddess, any idea of when that was, or the names of the people?

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:35 PM

Turners Hall in Milwaukee claims to be the site for the inspiration of this song, but I think anything else is apocryphal. One story has it Charles K Harris was jilted by his girlfriend there, not at all the same story as the song. Harris may have been inspired by something he witnessed or just had the idea for the plot twist.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

According to Spaeth (who seems to have read the story of the song's creation by Harris himself--there's a book written by Harris: After the Ball, New York, 1926), the site was Chicago.

"Harris had the gift of writing songs for special occasions, and After the Ball was actually ordered for an amateur minstrel show in his home town of Milwaukee. At a dance in Chicago he had seen a pair of young lovers go home separately after a quarrel and had immediately jotted down the line 'Many a heart is aching, after the ball.' On his return to Milwaukee he soon worked out the rest of the song, using the technique of having an old man tell the story to his little niece, which made the word 'pet' available whenever a syllable was needed to fill out a line." (Sigmund Spaeth, A History of Popular Music in America, Random House, 1948, p. 260)

~Masato

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From:
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 12:54 AM

Thank you Masato for another excellent piece of information.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: bernil
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM

It's nice with all the information and the comments. I agree that it might be better to learn the original text but as I never will sing in public (I think) it doesn't matter so much. Anyway, it's strange that people have to change a few words in an old text, at least when it makes no real change.

Berit

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 08:41 AM

Guest John Hill's post above is correct. Frances Black does sing the wrong melody, differing substantially from Charles Harris' original.

Incompetence, or the folk process at work? I know where my vote would go.

Murray

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

Well, in a way it's the folk process at work, Murray. People sang/sing what they remembered. Or, just as often, they sang an approximation of what they remembered and filled in the rest.

Me, I actually have the sheet music. I think maybe my great-aunt sent it to me with some other songs she thought I should learn on the piano. But maybe we bought it. Anyway having the music in front of me has always helped to fix tunes in my mind, so that the early songs I played on the piano are ones that I learned pretty solidly.

But a lot of people would write down the words of songs and either "everybody knew" the tune, or the writer knew the tune and was just trying to memorize the words. Lots of times folks didn't have any kind of musical notation that was convenient, I suspect.

This does not change the fact that I get irritated when people don't sing the "right" version of a published song. My mom was the same way: She got mad at Dinah Shore and Perry Como, back in the early 50's I guess, for the liberties they took with words & tunes.

Rita F

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:54 PM

There're two folk versions in the Max Hunter Collection, with lyrics, music transcriptions & sound recordings. (2) is close to the original.

(1) As sung by Frank Pool in Fayetteville, Arkansas on January 6, 1958

(2) As sung by Mrs. C. C. "Dorothy" Williford, Springfield, Missouri on June 30, 1958.

~Masato

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:42 PM

At least two Harris songs which went into folk process were sung by the Carter Family.

(1) "Hello Central Give Me Heaven"
a. Recording by the Carter Family [Realaudio] (recorded May 8, 1934). Lyrics posted HERE.
b. Harris' original lyrics are HERE in the forum. Sheet music is at the Levy (Click here).

(2) "'Mid the Green Fields of Virginia"
a. Recording by the Carter Family [Realaudio] (Recorded Feb. 23, 1932). The lyrics are HERE.
b. Harris' sheet music (1898).

~Masato

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:55 PM

Thank you for those links, Masato. I'm especially pleaed because I didn't know about the Max Hunter collection until now.

Note for anyone who had difficulties: In the thread links, I had to chance ThreadID to Threadid to get it to work.

Rita F

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 06:46 AM

Thank you for agreeing with me Murray. I would either vote for incompetance or a couldn't care less attitude that seems to to be prevalent among many "folk" singers these days. In most cases the "singers" have no knowledge of musical notation and make excuses for any deviations by pretending that some fairly recent song has been passed down by oral tradition in some way. I mentioned "The Rose of Allandale" previously because any written music to this song will show it to be in 4/4 time ... yet so many sing it incorrectly in 3/4 time...and with the chorus having the wrong melody.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM

And thats another thing... Its spelt Allandale not Allendale. The former is in Scotland (as song) and the latter in England.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From: GUEST,anne
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 07:59 AM

This is the kind of thread that makes this site a godsend! I really must join.

Subject: RE: After the ball, Frances Black
From:
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:04 AM

We'd be pleased to have you, Anne! Welcome!

It's amazing the knowledge that people like Masato, Murray, Malcolm, Joe, and on and on have at hand.

Thanks be to Max and Mudcat!!!

Subject: Lyr Add: AFTER THE BALL (Charles K. Harris, 1892)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:32 PM

Bill Kennedy had all the words, but it's actually 3 verses of 8 lines, not 6 verses of 4 lines.

From the sheet music at Indiana University:


AFTER THE BALL
Charles K. Harris
Milwaukee: Chas. K. Harris & Co., 1892.

1. A little maiden climbed an old man's knee,
Begged for a story: "Do, uncle, please!
Why are you single? Why live alone?
Have you no babies? Have you no home?"
"I had a sweetheart, years, years ago.
Where she is now, pet, you will soon know.
List to the story. I'll tell it all.
I believed her faithless after the ball.

CHORUS: "After the ball is over, after the break of morn,
After the dancers' leaving, after the stars are gone,
Many a heart is aching, if you could read them all.
Many the hopes that have vanished after the ball.

2. "Bright lights were flashing in the grand ballroom;
Softly the music playing sweet tunes.
There came my sweetheart, my love, my own:
'I wish some water. Leave me alone.'
When I returned, dear, there stood a man,
Kissing my sweetheart as lovers can.
Down fell the glass, pet, broken, that's all,
Just as my heart was, after the ball.

3. "Long years have passed, child. I've never wed,
True to my lost love though she is dead.
She tried to tell me, tried to explain.
I would not listen. Pleadings were vain.
One day a letter came from that man.
He was her brother, the letter ran.
That's why I'm lonely, no home at all.
I broke her heart, pet, after the ball."

Subject: RE: Origin: After the Ball (from Frances Black)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:59 PM

American Memory has an Oliver Ditson copy, also dated 1892, but with the Harris trademark. The same cover, with Lyon & Healy, Chicago, imprint, and another with Chas. K. Harris Co. imprint, are in the Levy Collection, all dated 1892. The song must have been an instant hit.
All have the photo of J. Aldrich Libbey, "the peerless baritone," on the cover.
Copies also in National Library of Australia.