Any serious 12 strings players left?

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM

It's not that I don't like it.

I just don't find it interesting any more.

I lost interest long ago with Bob Gibson and The Rooftop Singers.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:05 PM

Anyone who doesn't like the 12 string guitar should hear mine in Rick Fieldings hands.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 08:03 PM

I'm glad it's your "trademark." Not mine though. Like I said, it's used mostly if not always for "boy and his guitar" acts.

I never heard anyone say that you weren't supposed to fingerpick it. I did when I owned one. I always enjoyed Leo Kottke's playing and he can do some amazing things with it, but I still think they are a pain in the ass and like I said are hardly ever used in country and never in bluegrass ensembles.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 07:47 PM

"Just a novelty with applications best for solo work"? Really? No way! What have I been doing for the last three years then? 90% of my output of 104 songs to date are written specifically with fingerpicking on a 12-string in mind. That's how I perform them and it's becoming my trademark ("you're not supposed to fingerpick it", I was told several times - well, what do you know, nobody had told me when I started and it's too late now to change).

Neither do I tune it down - concert pitch it is, and it sounds great. Sure, I can thread needles through the callouses on both my hands (no fingerpicks for this guy, bare flesh does it best for me). But it's worth it for the fullness of sound and the variety of emotions it can evoke. You can imitate a mandolin or bouzouki on the higher strings, and base lines from a 12-string leave all others standing.

I started playing a Yamaha that I bought in the Netherlands 10 years ago, and only 3 weeks ago I took possession of a Custom Jumbo Cort electroacoustic - not just a beauty to look at, but it fills a room wall to wall just in acoustic mode.

And 12-strings are not just for bashing rhythms out of. They can produce really mellow, sensitive sounds for the slower numbers also.
Just go to http://www.folk4all.net, click on "albums", then on any of the album images to go to the tracklists, and finally on the headphone icons to hear how versatile a 12-string can be.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM

I've owned some 12 string guitars over the years and ended up getting rid of them as I've gone farther and farther from my folk roots to just country and mostly bluegrass.

Once in a while you hear a 12-string in country, but never in bluegrass.

I think the instrument is basically more than ever just a novelty with applications best for solo work.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: GUEST,bid andy
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:24 PM

Get you're self's a full power welsh longbow. It has one string but when shot at uke players it's a dam sight more satisfying, the thing is though it only has one string, unless you keep one under your hat

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From:
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

I got my first 12 string when I was 16. It was a Decca. I spent more time glueing it back together than playing it. When i was 18 I got a gibson B25-12. It was a wonderful little guitar. It died in an airline luggage compartment. For awhile i had a Guild electric 12 string (Guild Starfire 12) that I bought in a pawn shop in Albuquerque for $75. In 1975 I took out a student loan for $2000 and went directly from the financial aid office to the Podium Guitar shop in Dinkytown (Minneapolis, MN) and bought a Guild F212xl. It is a wonderful guitar and has had a lot of wear and tear over the years. I usually tune it to an open G (d bass). I have several other guitars and I have to admit, that I play them. I have a brass bodied dobro and a 40 year old guild classical guitar that I play on a regular basis. When I want to relax and enjoy myself, I play my 12 string. It has a deep bass voice and the high notes ring like a bell.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 strings players left?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:15 AM

(quote) "If you wanna send me a PM, I can send you to a couple of websites that have sound bites of my stuff. "

Heck-fire , just send on your email to [e-mail]. It would be my pleasure to hear what y'all got.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:57 PM

I've gotten to know Erik Darling a bit over the last couple of years, and one of the hilites for me of the Folk Alliance in Cleveland was gettin' to pick with him for an hour. He told me how the arrangement to "Walk Right In" came about.....he was a huge fan of Leadbelly's and used to see him while growing up in New York city.

Taliesen, I'm afraid that I'm far too computer illiterate to do mp3s, but my last three albums have had 12 string songs on them. If you wanna send me a PM, I can send you to a couple of websites that have sound bites of my stuff.

I'm workin' on a new album at the moment (still with Borealis Records in Canada) and there should be at least three 'pickin' tunes on the 12 string.

Have to agree with Murray. Leo Kottke hit like a bolt of lightening. Wonderful player, and I even like his SINGING!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 07:09 PM

The first time I (and probably millions of others )ever heard a twelve string was in 196something when the Rooftop Singers recorded "Walk Right In". Loved the sound. Visceral, that's what it was.

Then of course, Roger Mcguinn took the instrument (electrified) to new heights with the Byrds. And trust me, he can STILL create magic, solo, with an (acoustic) twelve string.

But IMHO there is no question that Leo Kottke, when he was at the peak of his powers, was THE master.

Murray

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 05:30 PM

(quote) "Thanks, everyone. I just decided to add a 12 string to my selection of instruments. I love the sound. Listening to Gordon Bok and Stan Rogers, as well as others, convinced me I should try it."

Iwhat a pleasure to read. it was my sincereest wish that if thus thread inspired even just "one" stalwart soul of a musician to *court* this grand instrument's muse then it was well worth taking the chance to post.

And ,as to Rick Fielding's unabashed love affair with the 12 string.... (quote) "I absolutely LOVE the 12 string and I'm quite fanatical about all it's aspects."...... ..... well what more can I say but that your 12 string passion is *music to my ears*. Any mp3 samples you'd care to make available. Would love to hear what your level of devotion has wroth. Please consider about sharing your favorite material of what you consider to be the best expression of that devotion because there's far too few of ya'. Mean while I'm still waitin' for the UK members here to contribute some of their low hangin' fruit to this "12 string" thread-basket.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: ChanteyMatt
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 04:29 PM

Thanks, everyone. I just decided to add a 12 string to my selection of instruments. I love the sound. Listening to Gordon Bok and Stan Rogers, as well as others, convinced me I should try it. My music friends thought it was just a plan to get yet another guitar.

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:57 PM

I absolutely LOVE the 12 string and I'm quite fanatical about all it's aspects. Leadbelly is still the most creative folk musician I ever heard and although I sure could never sing like him I've played his stuff for many years. My current Twelve string which seems to be able to handle my very low tuning well (B to B with a 67 on the bass) is a big Takamine.

Over the years I've owned a bunch......Stella, Three Harmony Sovereigns, Martin, Epiphone, Three Guilds and a couple of others I can't remember.

Fred Gerlach was a blast....wonderful player. He's the one who first got Pete S. playing, apparently by either loaning or selling Pete one of his instruments. This was prior to Pete's getting the Stan Francis.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 03:38 PM

Well I've got an old Epiphone FT85 12 string that I've played as a solo instrument for years, and, yes I'm afraid that I tune it to E. However I've at long last got a decent capo [Shubb] so I can tune it down now, but still capo up to play along with others, if I need to. Failte.....Giok

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:29 PM

The problem with most 12-string players is that they tune their instrument to E. They sound much better tuned down at least one whole step. My personal preference is to C or B. Blind Willie McTell I'm told used to tune to A!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 02:18 PM

I only have three words to say about how a 12-string guitar should be played:

Richard Leo Johnson

And as far as not staying in tune goes, I have a Guild JF3012 and a Martin J12-15 and they both stay in tune just fine. Admittedly, for folks like me with less than perfect pitch, the advent of electronic tuners has made the job of getting them in tune in the first place a little less daunting.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:41 PM

and how could I forget Harry Lewman ?!

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:36 PM

What about Paul Geremia, Fred Gerlach and Mark Spoelstra (just having out a new CD after more than 20 years!) !?!

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: TJO
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:28 PM

My experience is that the rarity of dedicated 12 string guitar players can be explained in one word -- tendinitis. It's also one of the reasons the popularity of the smaller guitars is growing. And didn't Leo Kottke have to take a couple years off from wear and tear and revamp his playing style before he came back? ( Playing more nylon string guitar instead of 12 string.)

I have a Martin and a Gibson 12. I love 'em both. Sound to die for. But after a couple hours of digging in to get that sound, I have to put them away for a couple months until I recover.

T.J. O'Malley

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:26 PM

I hear that Leo Kotke's isn't dusty.

I love the sound of Lead Belly's 12-string and I always loved hearing Pete Seeger's at concerts. There used to be a bunch of 12-string players, (Fred Gerlach comes to mind, and I've owned a couple of them at various times. Still, a lot of the 12-strings you run into sound sorta like a load of dog tags falling down stairs. I know that's just because they're cheap guitars or haven't been set up properly but one eventually begins to dread running into a 12-string player.

Set up and played well though, they're still inspiring.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:14 PM

Hey Mark, you can differ all you want...

It's just personal opinion eh... yours and mine both...

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:12 PM

50% of the stuff I play when we perform is on a 12 string (Fender) but it is mostly as rhythm guitar with the occasional little lead-y bits.

I'm with Taliesn on this - can't understand why there is not more use made of 12 string guitars in accoustic groups.

Allan

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM

(quote) "Yu would not believe the resonance of this guitar. I mean it felt like I was riding an earthquake! "

Now *that's* the kind of musician's passion and spirit that I wasfishin' to catch hold of here like so much ligntenin' in a bottle. Keep it comin'

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:06 PM

Clinton, I beg to differ with you. On this last tour with the Rose Tattoo, I was privileged to play Rik Palieris's Bruce Taylor 12-string, a copy of Pete Seeger's old Stanley Francis. It has a 28 inch scale, and tuned down to B it rocked the building on our version of the old Almanac Singersw' GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN. YOu would not believe the resonance of this guitar. I mean it felt like I was riding an earthquake!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:47 PM

I find a 12 string to be more trouble than it's worth...

I guess I can see it being used occasionally for a soloist for the different tone, but if yer playing with more than one person, I just can't see the point...

Subject: Any serious 12 stings players left?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:42 PM

Whenever I have the golden oppurtunity to join a gathering of singer/guitar-picker / players I *always* ask if there be a 12 string guitar player in the house. I've found that most well-endowed guitar homefronts ( 3 or more gutiars ) *may* include a 12 string yet ,more times than not , they then go on to fail to pass my white glove test ( Yeah,that's right , the presense of "undisturbed dust" on the fret neck ). Might I humbly suggest ; " This is an *outrage* Might I humbly suggest why. Anyone whom has more than even a passing partiality to the unique "voice" of guitar can not be taken aback , if not downright enchanted , by the fuller voice of the 12 string *choir* of strings.

Yeah, and I've heard all the usual excuses we're ALL aware: Too hard to keep in tune ,Too hard to fingerpick , too hard to work that fretneck ,Too expensive , yaday,yada,yada.

Give me a break!

The 12 string is as fine and as unique a presense as any stringed instrument and to find players so rare is "danged" exasperatin' to say the least. I mean it's not so exotic an instrument as the guitar-harp. Worse , I visit well-endowed Music shops fromn time to time and amidst legions of electric and accoustic guitars perhaps 2. Meaning the next generation that bothers to try an learn certainly ain't bothering with the 12 string. This concenrs me no end.

Prompting the question: Are there 12 stringers left? I mean in recording there's Leo Kotke and , to some degree Preston Reed and whom else? I must add that the British guitarists/ virutosos ( Steven Howe springs to mind ) have shown substantially more versatility in giving the 12 string more artistic attention than I see generated here on our soil or am I missing something. Correct me please otherwise it's just a damn shame and it ain't gettin; any better.

So , folks ,' fess up. Where can one go to hear some 12 string once in a while. Also , my anguished cry goes out to the UK members of this messaageboard. Whom in the UK has recordings that I'm missing entirely. Links would be most welcome.

OK, said my piece now have at it

Taliesn