BS: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions

Subject: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:14 AM

... with a little politics thrown in. It was supposed to be about both politics and religion, but it got too long. Maybe part II will be more about current affairs and less about traditional beliefs.

1.) Which of the following religions believe that the source of all sin is women?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

2) Which of the following religions believe that Jesus was a Jewish prophet of God?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

3) Which is the following religions believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary?
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

4) Which of the following religions limits the number of wives a man may take? 
A. Judaism    B. Christianity    C. Islam

5) True or False: Muslims believe the words of the New Testament.

6) The ____________ requires that women cover their ____________
1. Old Testament: ________________ 
2. New Testament: ________________
3. Quran: ________________  

7) Identify the religion's traditional punishment for rape:
50 sheckles, and the man is required to marry the woman and never divorce her: _____________
80 lashes, and they are no longer allowed to bear legal witness: ___________

8) Which religion traditionally believes that a menstruating female is fatal to men by her very presence?

9) Which Muslim country has elected 2 female Presidents or Prime Ministers?

10) Name 3 other predominantly Muslim countries that have elected female Presidents or Prime Ministers?

11) Which is the only European country to match that statistic?

12) What is the predominant Islamic sect?
A. Shiite    B. Sunni    C. Sufi     D. Wahhabi

13) Specify the Islamic sect of:
A. Taliban
B. Osama bin Laden 
C. Saudi Arabia (ruling class)
D. Iran
E. Pakistan

14) Match the core belief to the Islamic sect:
A. Shiite    B. Sunni    C. Ahmadi

1. The true religious (and sometimes political leader) at any given time, the Imam, Pope, is divinely appointed and he is the arbiter of religious doctrine.
2. The words of Mohammed and his writings in the Koran are the only source of the true religious beliefs, but there may be other prophets to come.
3. Mohammed was a true prophet, but he has not been the LAST prophet and messenger of God.

15) Identify the Christian sect by the belief:
A. Every man and woman has direct access to God, and no priestly class is necessary because following you personal spirituality is the path of salvation.
B. No mortal holy leader can know everything, so religious belief can be conservatively modified by a general consensus of elder members.
C. They claim salvation through secret knowledge
D. Speaking in tongues

16) What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?
A. Israel    B. Iraq    C. Iran    D. Kuwait

17) What of the following countries in the Middle East have a legal system which discriminates on the basis of religion?
A. Israel    B. Iraq    C. Syria    D. Lebanon.

18) In 25 words or less, what is the basic difference between the names Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah?

19) TRIVIA: What is the other number associated with the sign of the beast in Revelation 13:18?

20) TRIVIA: Which holy book contains an "Equal Rights Amendment?"

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:19 AM

Christianity believes that the source of sin is satan NOT women. Woman is represented as the seducer to sin.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:25 AM

See - the point of quizes, once you've gotten out of school, is that their FUN...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:31 AM

A lot of these questions seem to me best answered "All of the above and none of the above"

Haruo
Baptist Christian, albeit oddly leftish

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:45 AM

Nothing good comes of mixing religion and politics.:-)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:36 AM

Is this a quiz? seems like something else to me.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:15 AM

Well, I can't answer any of these questions but then I can't see any real difference between the various religions. To me they are just different groups of people who don't pay attention to the tenets of their own religions.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Orac
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:21 AM

What do we win if we can answer all this stuff? Beats me why anyone believes any of it. It seems to me that the same books are read by different groups and yet they all seem to manage to get a different "truth" out of it. It was a wise American who once said that "Faith is beliving what you know ain't so" .. I'll drink to that.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:51 AM

1. I doubt that any of the three actually does.
2. C
3. B&C
4. A case can be made that both A and B do
5. True and false.....they believe them but not as an orthodox (the theological term, not the "denomination") Christian would. Not authoritatively.
6. New,head
7. Uncertain, but I think the first option may be Levitical. Neither is "christian"
8. Niether jewish nor Christian. In levitical law it is merely "unclean" a meaning that is quite debatable
9. Through 14. I could only hazard guesses
15. A – most any fundamental protestant denomination, B – I'm not sure I understand the question C – Gnosticism D – Pentecostals, "charismatics", and others in the "holiness" tradition of protestantism

.......that's about the best I can do without looking stuff up.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:57 AM

religions don't believe anything; people believe.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:00 AM

When are you going to post your answers? There are probably a lot of people who want to argue with you, but it's so hard to argue with a question!

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:28 AM

Gee, Nicole -- you've hit on a Great Pit of Ignorance!! This is one of those areas I have always shirked, finding little to recommend close study; now, I'm embarassed by not having a good inventory of quirky human beliefs. I liked Kendall's quiz better!!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:34 AM

me too, Amos....let us all don our white sheets and go over to Nicole's place for a party...uh meeting...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM

Pretty good, John.

1. Actually both Judaism and Christianity do, although most modern practictioners would be surprised at the literal applications the believe used to take.

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24). (Catholic Bible)
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." (St. Tertullian)
So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (Quran 7:19:23).
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward" (33:35). (Quran)

In the Quran, both Adam and Eve are equally sinners, and both equally receive redemption from God. In the Old Testament, Adam blames it on Eve God believes Adam, and Eve is punished more harshly than Adam, and Eve is the source of original sin.

Judaism is a little more obscure, but it's there. It's related to the concept of original sin, but not the same. (Sorry, I couldn't find a good quote, but it's in Shabbat 146a.) It says that the snake seduced Eve and shot into her this substance, "zohama" ("stain"), which contaminated future descendants and contaminated her with strong lust; this stain was only removed from the Israelites by virtue of the experience at Sinai.

2. C
Sort of a trick question. Yes, Islam believes that Jesus was a Jewish prophet of God, but do does Christianity. But Christianity also believes that he is divine.

3. B&C
Correct

4. A case can be made that both A and B do
Only Islam specifies a limit on the number of wives. The monogamy generally accepted in western tradition is a Greco-Roman origin.
"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).  Multiple marriages are allowed in the Quran when polygamy can improve the life of orphans, widows and other disadvantaged women, and only with the consent of the woman.  The Old Testament requires that a childless widow marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married.  (Genesis 38:8-10.)  Modern Jews do not subscribe to this belief.

5. True and false.....they believe them but not as an orthodox (the theological term, not the "denomination") Christian would. Not authoritatively.
Correct. Both the Old and New Testaments are considered holy writings, and considered true except where they conflict with the teaches of Mohammed. Muslims believe the words of the New Testament have been changed and corrupted. So basically, Mohammed is the last prophet, so he has the latest and greatest word from God -- similiar to Christians, who consider the Old testament holy, but the words of Jesus supersede anything written by earlier prophets.

6. New,head And hair. Anyone want to take a guess at the others.

8. Niether jewish nor Christian. In levitical law it is merely "unclean" a meaning that is quite debatable
Judaism. "Our Rabbis taught:....if a menstruant woman passes between two (men), if it is at the beginning of her menses she will slay one of them, and if it is at the end of her menses she will cause strife between them" (bPes. 111a.) (Talmud)

15. A – most any fundamental protestant denomination, B – I'm not sure I understand the question C – Gnosticism D – Pentecostals, "charismatics", and others in the "holiness" tradition of protestantism
I meant Quakers for A, but it is a little too vague. C and D are both correct. Technically, D is only Pentecostals -- anyone who believes speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation is a sub-sect of Pentecostalism.

Anyone want to guess at B? You might be surprised.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:07 PM

B sounds like Mormonism to me. But, I dunno much about this stuff! To tell you the truth acheiving even the expertise Nicole has demonstrated, which is impressive, would feel like keeping track of all the characters in Pokemon, Disney World, Seuss, Ninja Turkles, the Borrowers, the whole Star Trek and Star Wars lexicon, and My Little Pony all at once -- a great inventory mapped to dubious substance.

But that's just me. I have my own ghosts, I just don't make institutions out of them or serial cartoons, either! LOL!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

New question:

Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:17 PM

15A - You do realize that many Quakers do not consider themselves to be Christian?

I'd argue a lot of the other answers - but It wouldn't do anyone any good - so why bother.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:21 PM

New answer... a quote from a childhood friend and Friend in the New York 15th st. Quaker meeting, to a class of folks seeking to understand Quakerism... "Well... Gee... I'd love to call my self a Universalist, but frankly... I don't believe ANYthing!"
Bless'im...
Yours in the light or whatever
Larry

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM

Some of the Native Americans believed a menstruating woman was very strong medicine; in some of the tribes, women had to leave the main camp and go to a special womens' camp during their period. (now keep in mind, this is something I read MANY years ago so I may not have it exactly right)

Is Islam considered a Western religion?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

These are like the "questions" one is asked to respond to by political organizations which are soliciting money. They are just awfully tendentious. And have nothing in particular to do with music.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM

Don't get too impressed. While writing the quiz, I double-checked "my" answers and went looking for backing quotes, etc.... and had to change a few of the "answers."

Quakers seem to believe whatever they want to believe. Some folks wouldn't call Catholics Christians either. I realize that traditional beliefs and modern beliefs vary, as do the opinions of individual practitioners, which is why I tried to keep everything pretty general and fairly trivial. (I don't expect anyone to get #19!)

Adding to the confusion, culture and politics sometimes imbues a religious code of beliefs, without having any basis in the core religion itself. When it comes right down to it, most of the world's holy books all pretty much say the same thing. Maybe that's why we consider them holy -- they aspire to a code of behavior that we rarely achieve.

Is no one going to take a whack at the Islam stuff?

Bagpuss, if someone wants to argue over an answer, I would hope that they could volunteer an answer of their own first :)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM

Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?

Rick, aside from the Temple of the Golden Globes, I haven't seen one yet!! What's the answer?? I may have a few recruits for them!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Jeanie
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM

Amos and Rick: This sounds to me like Unitarians - I'm reading about them at the moment and it's very interesting.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

"Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?"

We call that'n "Hardlyanity" (kinda rhymes with "insanity"). And though I'd never insist on donations of money, I would accept a virgin or two as payment for your health, wealth, and happiness.

ok. maybe rationalism?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM

"Only Islam specifies a limit on the number of wives"

Au contrare (or however you frenchify that'n). Both Titus and Timothy require that any church leadership position be filled by husbands of only one wife. Most churchs I have participated in say that this, at least in principle, indicates a superior spirituality to monogamy -- and it's been that way in protestant theology for at least 300 years.

On the one hand you want us to accept answers that have come about by tradition (flavored by culture and context of time) and others you want us to accept as the correct answer only the interpretation of isolated (out of context?) "scriptures" that you have chosen to highlight for the sake of this quiz.

If, on the other hand, you took the current state of those religions as practiced, your answers would be quite different (f'rinstance, for the past many hundred years Christianity has been the chief proponent of monogamy, while, if we were to believe your assertion, by the answers you gave, we would believe that moslems are the monogamous ones now)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

all 3 philosophies originated in the middle east & therefore aren't 'western religions'. are there any?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:15 PM

Well, there are the tenets of "rugged frontiersmen", but they probably don't qualify as a religion!

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:23 PM

15B could be Roman Catholic. "Papal Infallibility" only applies when exercised in the context of the collegate.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:31 PM

how about we do a quiz which cultures practice stoning of women for adultery, or female genital mutilation.

the only religious rule that one should live by, is the Golden Rule, 'treating others as we would have them treat us' thats all you need. (no moralizing, purely a utilitarian philosophy.)

looking back at history, religion is one of the main causes of war, (god is on the side of the biggest cannon, as they say)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM

There was another Quaker philosopher, the leate Peter Fingesten, who once said, (contrary to the advice on the subject...) I drink therefore I think. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:42 PM

that should say the late... Peter always reminded me of a Hungarian version of Vitor Borge...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:43 PM

that should read Victor Borge, also the late... Don't know how to spell his last name...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM

I totally disagree with the premise of your first arguement. You went a long way to find primarily apocraphal Christian writings and offensive quotes - but do not produce a meaningful that Christians believe that women are the source of sin. In fact that is NOT what Christians believe. Even your first quote, from OLD TESTAMENT writings, commonly rejected for inclsuion of most religious canon - only blames woman as the temptress of sin NOT the creator of sin. NOT the source of sin. In fact, the creation myth used by many Judeo-Christian religious thinkers clearly assigns the source of sin to satan. YES, woman has a special role of the sin, YES man has his own special role in the sin ... the point was that humankind has weakness for sin and that each sex has its own special weakness.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

Western religions? Yes, there are a number of them. Zuñi? Diné? others? The Diné had no word for religion as such but it is often used to cover their concepts of the universe and its workings. The same is true for other distinctive Americans' concepts. At Taos, I was pleased to hear that Catholicism, forced on them by the invaders, was down to 20%; 80% now adhering to their groups original concepts. Diné beliefs are alive and well in the Navajo Nation.

Unfortunately, the religion of the Casino Money Tree is infecting many.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:15 PM

Thanks, Guestguest, for broadening the discussion appropriately. Hit me right in the blind spot -- I had forgotten all about Dine.

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:16 PM

yeah, what Jed said.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:11 PM

John,

I stand corrected. Actually, went I went to lunch today (thinking about your earlier answer) I realized that I had blundered by equating the New Testament for the most part with the sum of Christian law. My fault for trying to generalize too much. Was coming back online to retract the statement, but you beat me to it :)

However, the vast majority of Muslims are monogamous. Those that are polygamous justify it with the Quran, but it isn't common anymore, maybe because there just aren't that many extra women to go around.

Jed: Although Christianity emphasizes the New Testament over the Old Testament, why would you say that it is not included in Christian religious canon? (I really want to know.) It appears in most Bibles. I did try to avoid associating OT quotes with Christians, though, since I didn't want to hunt throught the NT for conflicts.

If we take ONLY the life and actions of Jesus as an definition of Christianity, then you're right -- woman is not considered the source of sin. Jesus consorted with hookers and lepers and paupers and homosexuals and all kinds of fringe groups. All in all, a pretty nice, tolerant guy.

For NT writings, you can refer to the above quotes from 1 Timothy and Ecclesiastes. Trust me, I did not have to look hard.

Augustine really invented the doctrine of Original Sin, and it's after the NT period that the whole anti-woman rhetoric starts, even though I don't see any real foundation in the gospels. Although most modern theologians wouldn't interpret the scriptures exactly the same way, the habit and culture persists. Women are more weak and sinful than men. Women must cover their heads when they pray. Women may not be ordained, and so forth.

As with anything religious, just MHO.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM

I've never covered my head to pray and it's always seemed to work out pretty well...

But now, that was Paul who said all that. Paul, who was a Man, just a Man. I don't recall that Jesus hisself ever said any of those things. However, I may be recalling wrong.

Anyway, Woman was made to be attractive to Man. Man puts restrictions on Woman so he won't be unnecessarily attracted to her, and so she will not be attractive to Other Men. Man also protects Woman not because she is weaker, but because she is the Nurturer, the Giver of Life. Has more to do with Human Nature than Religion, at least that's what I think.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:43 PM

Ecclesiasticus is considered Apocrypha by Jews and by some Christians. It IS part of the Catholic bible, as you suggest - but is not typical of mainstream Christian thinking.

I don't deny that Christians have focused comments on the sinfulness of women - I do deny that they have not made a similar focus of the sinfulness of men. It is easy to sort through these ancient texts to find offensive ideas expressed - these myths have been collected and modified for so many many years and been sifted through so many cultures.

The basic tenets of Christianity are still valid and reasonable; faith in God, love for your fellow man (HUman).

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:08 PM

The answer to Rick's mini-quiz must be unitarians.

Just to be clear, Ecclesiasticus, which Nicole cited way up the thread, is one of the books that make up what many protestants term the Apocrypha. These apocryphal books, all written in Greek, were largely concerning the period between those covered by the two testaments, and were not deemed part of the canon by the Early Church.

Augustine wanted them counted in, and eventually one of the church councils that periodically sat (Trent, 1546) went along with this. By then of course the church was split, and the writ of these councils ran only in the catholic church. The catholic church calls the apocryphal books deuterocanonical.

Ecclesiasticus is not to be confused with Ecclesiastes, mentioned in Nicole's last post. This is an old testament book, not new, as Nicole (maybe accidentally) implied.

Thanks for an interesting thread Nicole. I would just caution that in many ways (not least attitude to women) is is not realistic to bundle all of the Christian strands together, as you seem to be doing. On some of your questions, different strands would return different answers. Also I'm not sure that it's right to count islam in the western religions, and some western religions have been overlooked as others have said. (Including that whole area of "western guru" religion around the theosophists and their successors.)

Apropos of nothing in particular, I've always wondered about Jesus. Do believers hold that he pre-existed his birth on earth - ie was he always part of the triumvirate up there, or was he created specifically to be slaughtered? If the latter, it doesn't seem much of a sacrifice. It would have been better if his father had sacrificed something he'd always cherished.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM

Interesting thoughts, Jed. Not being a practicer of any particular religion, I view them all with the same sort of scholarly curiosity.

Of course, I admit the agenda implied by a few above... stated it in fact in that interminable Iraq war thread. Since this quiz started in the other thread in response to a lot of talk being thrown around about religion and governments in the Middle East, I find it interesting that none of the regular political-BS-thread posters around here has answered even one of the Islam questions. (Most of which are FAR easier than the Christianity questions.) Heck, John answered the toughest one.

It is valid to question the accuracy of defining a religious belief in a few quotes, and what effect religion has upon government and culture. I TOTALLY agree :)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

"Augustine really invented the doctrine of Original Sin"

see now.....this is just the kinda stuff that starts pissin' religious people off :^)

There is a sorta transcendence to the doctrines of most religious beliefs -- that is, though someone may be known for pointing a doctrine out, those who believe the doctrine would not say that that fellow "invented" the doctrine. They would believe that the doctrine is in and of itself true, and the fellow who pointed it out was perhaps first, or just the best at pointing it out -- putting it into words -- systematizing it.

If I believe in original sin it is not because Augustine "invented it". It is because I can see it as a reasonable interpretation of the scriptures.

There is a difference between believing that something is true, and being able to support that truth by emperical means -- but those with real religious beliefs do actually believe that something is true. That doesn't mean that two opposing views can't happily co-exist, but it is one of the flaws in hoping we (religious and non-religious) can get along by a pluralism model, rather than by a toleration model.

Pluralism presupposes that all religious viewpoints (or anything else that cannot be proven empirically, for that matter) are equally invalid......presupposing in a rather condescending manner that "unprovable" is the same as "untrue".

Tolerance, on the other hand, merely demands that we allow for our differences in the name of a better society. It doesn't discount the possibility for truth.

Oh yeah, and when Jed says "I do deny that they have not made a similar focus of the sinfulness of men.", I agree with 'im on that'n too.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:24 PM

That would be lousy spelling, Fionn. I ended up somewhere in between both spellings...

The reason I only included the big 3 western religions, is because I don't know much about the rest of them. The 4th and 5th religions of the west would not go over well in a religious quiz, namely Science and Money.

DMcG: Sorry, I missed your answer. I was referring to the Roman/Orthodox split on the Eastern Orthodox side.

And I THINK that catches me up. Which leaves 6, 7, 9-14 and 16-20.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:43 PM

"I've always wondered about Jesus. Do believers hold that he pre-existed his birth on earth - ie was he always part of the triumvirate up there, or was he created specifically to be slaughtered? If the latter, it doesn't seem much of a sacrifice. It would have been better if his father had sacrificed something he'd always cherished"

I can only tell you what I was taught. Fundamentalist Christians, most "Evangelical" Christians (that's Christians who believe in pretty much the same orthodoxy as "fundamentalists" but who, because the term fundamentalist has become so negatively distorted, choose to go by another name), and, in doctrine though not in practice or as individual "believers", most main-line protestant denominations..........wow...how's that for a qualifier?!

...anyway, this is how it was taught to me. Jesus did pre-exist (before the incarnation). The Christian points to several things in both old and New Testament to conclude this but it would be unwieldy here to proof-text. If you really want specifics PM me (I'm not around here much but I'll try to check back from time to time). In an "inter-diety" (just made that'n up!) pact, and for reasons unknown to man, the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) set about the plan that would contain creation and redemption.

Jesus "emptied himself" -- making himself as a man. So....when Jesus was here incarnate, he was a man. He suffered the same illnesses and struggles as are common to man. The deal was though -- he remained perfect. He was, to the fundamental belief of a Christian, more important as a sacrifice than for a moral example.

Here you will find a HUGE, three-way (if not more-way) disagreement among many who go by the name "Christian".

1. many (especially among more "liberal" denominations) believe that the example was the real deal -- there was no need for a sacrifice because man, at his core, is good. Not in need of a sacrifice.

2. those who think the sacrifice is the thing and the example the proof of his worthiness -- but the LIFE was also the real deal. In other words, these (like myself) marvel at the humaness of Jesus -- that he did what he did as a man who was not at all times entirely aware of how his incarnation was relly meant to play itself out.

3. Finally there are those who think that the belief that Jesus was both man and God is diminished if he didn't maintain the all-knowing, all-powerfulness of his godness. These are the ones who, for example, chafe at the concept behind "The Last Temptation" because the Jesus of that movie wasn't entirely aware of the end in the beginning.

In short, 'tis a mystery.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:47 PM

Oh yeah, and Fionn, I think Rick's "religion" is not religion at all, rather science or rationalism. (I've always found Rick to be very respectful of well-behaved religion but I think I've read Rick say before that he is non-religious)

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:55 PM

Ha, ha! Not far off the mark, John. If I could FIND a religion that met my criterion, I might not neccessarily JOIN it...but I'd sure want to be friends with the folks who DID belong to it.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24? That book doesn't show up in my Jewish "Bible". And that statement doesn't show up in Ecclesiastes. Are the rest of the quotations equally valid?

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM

Thanks for the synopsis on the Jesus/man/God thing, John. Now, where did I get the idea that Jesus existed prior to his human incarnation, agreed to the deal, and then once he was born on earth he was unaware of his heavenly nature until divine revelation later in life?

I guess that's like #2... sort of.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:23 PM

yeah Rick, well I've been doing some 'sperimenting myself and maybe we can invent one we'd both like. Currently I straddle between the one I believe.......and what I wish it was!

(for its part -- it doesn't care too much for me neither ;^) )

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:59 PM

Wouldn't Ecclesiasticus be called the ben Sira or Book of Sirach in the Jewish Bible?

Online text at: http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/SIR/SIR25.HTM

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:02 PM

good discussion, Nicole.

Jesus and pre-existence? Seems to discount his role and the value of his actions, if he was not fully human and if he was a pre-existing being in a way no other human exists ... as a Catholic I was told this was part of the mystery. Jesus was, I was taught - fully human and of course the story only makes sense if he was.

I suspect there really was historical man that the Christian stories call Jesus and that he really was a remarkable human being. The faith he passed on interests me. The religious thought his life inspired, and the religions that grew around them have less interest to me.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:05 PM

and as to Nicole's point that enlighted, modern thought can be found within Islam, I have no doubt - in spite of the fact that many terrible things have been done, recently in its name. Islamic bigotry has no monopoly on hate! And, like Christianity - Islam the religion is not to blame for the murderous acts of some of its followers.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:17 PM

Well, danged, I reckon it's time fir me to wade into this thread but don't expect me to hang around here much because I'm more a spiritual Christain than an intellectual. As fir what I know about Islam, my book knowledge is real lacking but I have a good Islamic friend who I talk with and we find much to agree on. He interprts the jahad much the way that I interpret, "and sin no more". Yeah, the stuggle of mankind to spend the time to listen to God thru meditation and then go out and act on his message.

Now as fir Jesus, I am very much in the minority here with theologans and have found myself frustratin' a few in my day. Fundemental Christains believe that God controls everything and can make anything happen He wants or prevent anything from happening that He doesn't want to happen. For everything a purpose. And this can thinking can be well supported by scripture. Problem is, scripture leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation.

Lets just say, for instance that God does control all and can make everything happen that he wants and prevent those things from happening that he doesn't. Well, if that is the case and one, as a Christain believes in the forty days of rain, then why did God have to do this if He controls all? And the biggest question of all, why send Jesus, His son to Earth as flesh to teach the aspect of a merciful God and more importantly a forgiving God? If God in fact could have controlded everything then there would not have been thids need.

Doctor Charles Stanley, who I love to his very core, and I are at odds on this and I consider Charles to be one of the most spiritual men that I know. Charles says that I am letting God of the hook. I don't see it that way. I might have when I was younger but I have been witness to too many of God's blessings in my life and in the lives of others to realize that He is hanging in there with us, going thru thr ups and downs, like riding shotgun. I can not bridge the wide divide of reason where God would let a 5 year old girl run into the street and be killed by a car, yet this stuff happens everyday.

And folks get real mad at God and want to know why He did this or allowed this to happen. Why, why, why, looking for the rest of the story, the silver cloud. Yeah, I believe there are things that happen just because and there are evil thing which are also done for which at the ebnd of the day, God puts his head in his hand and figuratively says to Himself, "Danged, I'll do better tomorrow."

Now, back to Jesus. I have read the New Testamnet and the stories told by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and the letters to the various churches and the story is very consistant and the underlying message is the message of love and forgiveness. Is it all peaches and cream, no. Jesus lives as a man. He gets impatient, He gats aggrivated. He gets tired. The same things that we as men get. It's how he allows himself the solitude (meditation) to deal with it and come out teaching the parables of seed and showing His love and talking about the importance of a relationship that thru Him we as people can have with the Father.

Some folks want to argue the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, but those folks are missing the message and giving in to their own agendas, not Gods.

There are still way too many folks who say they are Christain, who believe in a God to be feared and by doing that it is my opinion that these folks are missing the entire piece, Yeah, and I believe there a folks, who for their own agends satnd in a pulpit and allow themselves to use Christianity as not only their shield but their swords. It is this group that I find the most trouble with and have sermonized a tad here and there about.

Charlie Daniels said it best when he wrote, " Sometimes I think that preacher man like to do a little walkin' to".

So, I'm not too sure how far we've come here, Probably lots of folks thinkin' ol' Bobert done lost his marbles getting out here on a limb. But, to my critics, hey it doesn't bother me at all. I have a daily realtionship with the Lord and think I listen to Him purdy good. If I didn't I sure wouldn't come out here and spill my guts.

This isn't a rant. Maybe a challenging testimonial but if so I'd just say, the Holy Spirit just got me going.

God Bless

Bobert

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:26 PM

P.s. If anyone wants to carry this on with me, PM me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:32 PM

Ok, without cheating, I'll try the Islam stuff, questions 9-14... Watch me suck. :/

(9) I wan't to say Indonesia, so I will.

(10) Uh... Pakistan and Turkey, I know for sure... Then... Hell, I dunno. Malaysia.

(11) Iceland?

(12) B.

(13) Out of the previous choices from the previous question? K...
A. Taleban---Well, B, but influenced by D
B. Osama bin Laden---D
C. Saudi Arabia---D
D. Iran---A
E. Pakistan---B

(14) 1. A
2. B, I guess, though I don't think most Sunni Muslims would agree that "there may be other prophets to come."
3. C

There, now someone took a stab at the Muslim questions. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:03 PM

It's been 30 years since I read the Koran but I'll take a stab at the questions left. The ones I think I know, that is.
6. The Koran doesn't require women to cover anything that I recall, only to be 'modest'. 9. Pakistan, I think. 12.Sunni 13.?, Wahhabi, Wahhabi, Shiite, Sunni (It seems to me the Taliban must be Sunni because they hate Shiites. And the Wahhabi are really a kind of Sunni.) 14. #1 is A, of course. The rest lose me. Are the Ahmadis the same as the Madhists? If so, I think they're extinct. 18. Yhwh is the unspeakable name of god to the Jews. Jehovah is, I think, Martin Luther's pronunciation of it. I presume (guess) Allah is an Arabic equivalent.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 09:09 PM

"wan't?" Good god, I must be tired...

--Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:42 PM

See? I knew ya'll could do these questions!

6) OT: Head, hair and face, but it's more of a respectabilty issue for, not an absolute requirement.
NT: head and hair
Q: Bosom, but both men and women are admonished to dress modestly.

9) This one is a toughie. It's Bangladesh --- 1991-1996 Prime Minister Khaleda Zia; 1996-2001, Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wajed. Ironically, Khaleda and Wajed are in opposing parties.

10) Indonesia --- 2001 President Megawati Sukarnoptri
Uzbekistan --- 1959-70 President Yadar Sadykovna Nasriddinova
Pakistan --- 1988-90 Benazir Bhutto
Turkey --- 1993-96 Tansu Ciller

Of note are also Israel (1969-74, Golda Meir) and India (1966-77, Indira Ghandi)

11) Ireland --- 1990-97 President Mary Robinson, 1997- present President Mary McAleese

New Zealand has also had 2 female Prime Ministers and 2 female Governor-Generals. Finland and Britain have also had female non-heriditary heads of state.

12) Correct. Sunnis make up about 85% of Muslims. Almost all of the rest are Shiite.

13) Good!
A. Taliban - Deobandi, Sunni sub-sect, orgin about 1860. Deobandi's get along well with Wahhabi's, and the Taliban is sometimes reported as being Wahhabi, but they consider themselves Deobandi.
B. Osama bin Laden - Wahhabi, also a Sunni sub-sect, origin mid-1700's
C. Saudi Arabia (ruling class) - Wahhabi
D. Iran - Shiite
E. Pakistan - Sunni

14) Correct

Shiite -- The true religious (and sometimes political leader) at any given time, the Imam, Pope, is divinely appointed and he is the arbiter of religious doctrine. Sunni -- The words of Mohammed and his writings in the Koran are the only source of the true religious beliefs, but there may be other prophets to come. Ahmadi -- Mohammed was a true prophet, but he has not been the LAST prophet and messenger of God.

Getting Shiites and Sunnis together si like Irish Catholics and Protestants. To an outsider, the religious beliefs seem relatively similar, but history adds the real fuel to the flames.

18) Yahweh and Jehovah are personal names roughly meaning "The One Who Is," Allah is a more general term for God, like the Jewish El or Elohim.

Only a few questions left, none of which are easy.

In some early manuscripts, the number "616" is the number of the beast, in others the number "616" is a notation along with the usual "666."

The ancient Jewish penalty for rape was a small fine (50 silver sheckles) and marrying the woman, which sounds a lot more like a punishment for the woman since she has to marry the jerk.

80 lashes and a loss of legal status is the punishment in ancient Islam. Since women had the same legal status as men (with a few gender-based exceptions), reducing a man's legal status was much like the modern American practice of withdrawing voting priviledges from felons.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 12:11 AM

Sorry, but neither "Ben Sira" or "Book of Sirach" appear in the Jewish Holy Scriptures. All of the on-line references to it that I can find are to the Apocrypha, which is a Christian concept. What would be the justification for using it as proof of the Jewish belief in anything? Because it may have been originally written in Hebrew? I really can't see that.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:30 AM

Ms Castle: I think you are incorrect in your definition of Sunni Islam. I can't point a finger at a passage but I'm certain they regard Mohammed as the last prophet. And it is true that, historically, they have violently resisted any amendments to the Koran.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:42 AM

Nicole:

Many thanks for injecting a fine quality discussion; I am full of admiration for the erudition being exercised here both by you and others.

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM

Art, I wasn't using the Catholic Bible as a reference to Judaism, I was using in reference to Catholicism. Sorry for being unclear. Fionn's explantion above says it way better than me.

However, the book does happen to appear, under another name, in many collections of Jewish religious literature. Since you had some of that, I though you might find the reference you were looking for in that.

Misophist, you may be right, but I keep finding a bunch of "explanations" written by Muslims that all disagree. Perhaps it's in the definition of the word "last" -- is Mohammed the LAST prophet (forever), or was he the last (latest) prophet. Some explanations say that any Muslim who believes in the existence or possible existence of another prophet after Mohammed isn't really a Muslim, which sounds like some of the nit-picking among Christian sects about some other sect not being Christian. So I'm not sure how seriously to take it.

I erroneously injected the word "Pope" in the Shiite description. It was a note to self I accidentally pasted over -- the Imam are not like Popes, but the attitude toward them is much like the Catholic attitude toward the Pope.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 04:26 PM

Nicole:

Shi'ites are indoctrinated into the infallibility of their Imami? Is that what you mean? Or, at least, secular auhority over the lives of followers?

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 07:39 PM

Way better than I can say it, here's a quote from understanding-islam.com:

"The Shiite faith of "Imamah" implies that after the Prophet (pbuh), there shall be no other prophet, but the only true leader of the Muslims, at any given time, is an "Imam" who, like the prophets of God, is directly appointed by God. The appointment of the first "Imam" was made by God through the last Prophet (pbuh), while every subsequent "Imam" is appointed through the "Imam", who precedes him. Another qualification of the "Imam", according to the Shiite belief is that he shall belong to the family of the last Prophet (pbuh). The Shiite belief holds that the "Imams", like the prophets of God, are "ma`soom" (sinless, innocent) and, therefore, should be obeyed in all matters and under all circumstances. The "Imams", according to the Shiite faith, are thus not just the political leaders of the Muslims but also their religious leaders and clergy. The Sunni school, on the other hand, does not ascribe to any such belief.

This may, at first sight, seem to be a trivial difference between the two schools. However, a close analysis reveals that it amounts to a difference in the basic sources of religion and religious knowledge information and directives for the two schools. The Sunni school, because of its lack of belief in the institution of "Imamah" holds the last Prophet of God and the book revealed on him as the two primary sources of Islam, while the Shiite school, because of the importance and position it gives to the "Imams" holds them to be an autonomous source of their religion. Anything that an "Imam" says, anything that he does and anything that he narrates is "religion" for the Shiite school. Differing with an "Imam" in any matter is of about the same consequence as differing with a prophet. Not submitting to the directions of an "Imam" is as grave a sin as refusing to submit to the directions of a prophet of God."

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 08:22 PM

One problem in discussions such as this is that the 'soft' sciences (sociology, psychology, and to an extent, theology) have become so PC, sometimes that noted scholars can be said to be liars. A few years ago I read a book comparing the Xian, Jewish and Islamic concepts of God. The author was an ex-Anglican nun who is considered a world authority on her subject. The book was published by the Yale University Press. In the section on Islam, she lied. Not erred, not espoused a minority theory; she lied. Every dictionary I have ever seen gives the same origin of the word 'Koran'. She gave a different one which showed Mohammed in a kindlier light. There were many other items as well. So choose your references carefully and read the source material if you can.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 09:15 PM

Good stuff, Nicole.

However, the dominant religion of the West today is not Christianity. It is materialism, consumerism, capitalism, and marketing. Its churches are the commercial marketplace, the banks, and the stock exchange. Its priests are the advertisers. Their main pulpit is the TV.

Its forms of worship and ritual are working, earning money, spending money, partying, and acquiring ever-increasing amounts of goods and services. Buying now and paying later (if ever) is a cherished ideal that inspires the parishioners to mortgage their lives away on an uncertain future...and THAT's FAITH, by golly.

Its promised salvation is instant gratification of all desires, easily achievable through credit spending...accompanied by a very powerful cultural myth about romantic "love" (finding that special "someone" who will complement you perfectly, always turn you on, and make up for the fact that the rest of your life is essentially meaningless in the greater context of existence, which is itself...well...ummm...meaningless.).

The romantic love thing seems to be necessary, since the rest of the package as offered is utterly soulless, and that could lead to serious trouble. Gotta put some emotional content in life or people could lose their minds and run amok in the streets.

Christianity ceased being the dominant religion a long time ago in the West, and is now merely a cultural remnant of a time when it once WAS the dominant religion, just as the British monarchy is now a cultural remnant of a time when it was the dominant power in the British Empire and the world.

However, these are just side observations to the general theme of this thread. The info you have provided about 3 much older religions which arose in the Middle East has been quite interesting and informative.

- LH

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 09:54 PM

Who's the ex-nun you speak of, Misophist? It almost sounds like Karen Armstrong, except that she used to be a Roman Catholic nun (in the UK), and I think she's a pretty reliable resource on Islam and comparative religion.
But yes, she presents Islam in a favorable light.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 10:55 PM

For all the gods / God's sakes, let the mystery be !!!

What stange dogmas, laws, coercions, and outright lies are told by all of the above belief systems in the name of what is unknowable and of little actual import to us as individual human beings striving to live out our own personal lives with as little hurt to ourselves and hopefully others.

And why????? So the shepherd can control the flock with as little resistence as possible.

What better fucking way to control a nomadic people, wheter two millenia ago or now, who are wandering aimlessly, day after day, in the desert of their lives and spirits.

Fantasies of security are all they have and they / we seem willing to die to protect those shaky and transparent visions hovering in the heat.

I can see why they were told, "A plague on all your houses."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 11:36 PM

This is a fascinating discussion albeit one I bowed out of long ago.

Oh, the master guards the sheepfold bin,
And he wants to know is my sheep brung in,
And he's calling, calling,
Calling softly, softly calling,
For them all to come gathering in.

from the song "Master Of The Sheepfold" which is itself taken from a poem by the nineteenth century poet Sarah Pratt McLean Greene called "De Sheepfol'" To me, this song says: Forget the details. These metaphors nre not set in concrete. Forget the shepherd's admonitions and live and let live.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 02 - 11:43 PM

...and make room for all.

This world'd sure run more peacefully.

Art again with a last word.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 12:47 AM

An interesting note on the social changes in Islamic countries in the last generation. Somewhere around 1956, I don't remember for sure exactly, my father arranged for me to spend an extended summer with the family of a Pakistani Air Force Captain. Some good things, a few bad, one absolutely necessary, but what comes to mind most strikeingly today is that no one seemed to care that much about religion. In Karachi nothing stopped when the muezzin called. One seldom saw any one praying in public. The mosques were never crowded save on special holidays. It was a very secular place then.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 09:20 AM

I like what Little Hawk just said......except for lumping "working" in with "earning money, spending money, partying, and acquiring ever-increasing amounts of goods and services".

It's a minor point, I know, but I still think that work, in proper balance is a virtuous thing....
...in fact, the nature of our materialism is often focused on how we may aquire and enjoy without the "work" part.

And when out of balance, it seems to be because the value of the work is judged almost soley by what it will gain us materially -- not that it fulfills us by the act itself.

I'd properly attribute it if I knew who originated it, but I've heard it said that in the west we now;

Worship our work
Work at our play
Play at our worship

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 10:08 AM

Art, you're a bloke after me own heart!!

LH, I would suggest your defintiion is slightly off. The most widespread religion in the world today is the High Holy Church of the Physical Universe (HHCOPU). Materialism is a mere splinter group under the higher umbrella of the Planetary Archdiocese.

Some of its mantras:

If it isn't physical, it isn't real.

Time flies like an arrow, and only like an arrow.

No hopping over space; please go _through_!

One life per being only. No sharing!

If it isn't matter, it isn't you.

Gravity is virtue. What you give to gravity is who you are.

I am the Phsyical Universe; thou shalt have no other Universe before me.

...and so on.

The beliefs that sustain this religion are remarkably obdurate and consititute the real belief systems held by people who pretend to be Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindi, and other superficial layers of asserted belief. The cult reportedly welcomes members from all other religions and does not require conversion. According to the cult's own publications, membership is currently in the range of 1.8 billion and growing faster than any other sect.


Regards,

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 11:52 AM

You are quite correct, Amos, and I have come across a book that you would love to read. I'm just into the first part of it. I will PM you later, and maybe you can find it somewhere.

John - Yes, work is indeed a very desirable thing, when it is accompanied by healthy motivations and by joy. It's the kind of work people do in "Dilbert" that I was referring to. Their work is joyless, repetitive, meaningless, and trivial. They do not really believe in it, but they see no way out. They are in fact enslaved. That is the problem with many people's work nowadays, yet that empty work becomes the very centrepiece of their lives. How sad. This is the defeat of the human spirit in the name of materialism.

- LH

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 11:55 AM

Some good observations herein.

Art

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 04:39 PM

What I rember of my Islamic Studies:
Muhammad and following prophets: Muslim belief is that Muhammad is the seal of prophets, i.e. there will be no prophets after him. Muslim sects believing otherwise are not considered true Muslims (prosecution of the Ahmadiya sect in Pakistan).
Imam in Sunni Islam is the person leading the prayer. In Shiite Islam he is a descendant of Muhammad through his daughter Fatima and his cousin and son in law Ali Ibn-Abi-Talib.
Ali was the fourth caliph (i. e. successor of the prophet as worldly AND spiritual leader of the Islamic community); his descendants were deprived of the caliphate. So the Shiites constructed their concept of Imama: The Imam is the spiritual leader of the worldwide Islamic community.
There are two mainstreams of Shia: The Ismailis (now in India, head: Agha Khan) named after the 7th Imam Ismail where the chain stopped because his oldest son and appointed successor died before him, and the Twelver Shia (who took Ismail's next son as successor), because the 12th Imam, al-Mahdi, disappeared as a child of about five years. He lives in the ghaiba (concealment) and will come back at the end of the world. Meanwhile his reign is represented on earth by high qualified muslim theological teachers called Ayatollahs (signs of Allah. Their role is qualified in the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran).
Use of the veil for Islamic women: Quran says that decent women should cover their faces when squatting to move their bowels. Since I'm recovering at home I can't give the source; need to look it up at University.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Pied Piper
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

I think that any babies in these three religious bathwaters drowned a long time ago. All the best PP

Subject: "Which religion...?"
From: aaronjclegg
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 12:46 AM

"Which religion uses 'common sense' as it's basic premise, insists that it's participants treat others as equals, never solicits money, does not make men and women adversaries, does not rely on the supernatural to threaten people, and amends it's beliefs as new information comes to light?"

It sounds almost like science to me, except that science does solicit money. While science isn't generally considered to be a religion, it does form the basis of a world-view (esp. the one we hold in the West).

Aaron.

Subject: Hosanna?
From: aaronjclegg
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 12:49 AM

Question: Where does the Christian name "Hosanna" come from?

Aaron.

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 12:56 AM

NTERJECTION:        Used to express praise or adoration to God.
NOUN:        1. A cry of "hosanna." 2. A shout of fervent and worshipful praise.
ETYMOLOGY:        Middle English osanna, from Old English, from Late Latin sanna, from Greek hsanna, from Hebrew hôa'-n', deliver us : hôa', second person singular of hôîa', to save; see wc in Appendix II + -n', injunctive particle.

You can answer such questions on your own if you wish, by looking at www.bartleby.com, a good source of reference listings.

A

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: BH
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 06:37 PM

Love a good quiz---this was a bit convoluted. But, when it comes to the politics involved---listen to the lyrics of Holly Near's song--I Ain't Afraid. Puts it all into perspective to me.

Gee---brought it back to a folk/protest oriented piece of music.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 07:14 PM

...what I dislike about the world's organized religions, and religious people in general, especially the ones I run into around here, is that they all seem to think they have a wrap on what virtuous behavior really is and that they have a right to enforce it on the rest of us imperfect non-whatevers.......of course one might accuse psychotherapists of something similar...not me of course, but....

Virtuous behavior, beliefs, and feelings are at best kept to oneself...at worst, the cause of world-wide strife...hg

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 08:12 AM

Mr. Bobert: You sure kin git to the heart of the matter. I hadn't read this thread until this morning because for me, religion is a personal relationship with God, and theology/tenets/doctrines serve the function of deepening that relationship. You could read every religious writing that has ever been created and it would mean nothing if you don't have a personal relationship with God. And, if you try to understand God by judging how people who claim to know Him act, you're missing the point. It is always interesting to me how the back-biters, back-sliders, hypocrites and self-servers who call themselves Christians, Muslims or Jews are cited as proof of the falacy of their religion, not those whose lives have been transformed by their faith, who are sincerely trying to live a loving, honest life. Some of the most admirable people I have ever had the honor to know are Atheists, and I've known some Christians who I make every effort to avoid because of their hypocrisy and mean-spirited-ness. I don't confuse their actions with the validity of their religion. Whether it's Christianity, Islam or Judaism (or Taoism) the only way to understand the religion is to go to the source, not the practitioners.

Christ is not a historical figure to me, or someone I read about in a book that has many obvious contradictions and myths. He is not someone I can "prove" to anyone else. Or would I try. I have enough trouble trying to live his teachings. I also believe that even those who say that God is a fig newton(thank you Pogo) of our imagination still have faith. I don't think that it's possible to live without faith in something... maybe not God, but something that makes life worth living.

I believe that Christ is the Son of God, and try to follow his teachings. I go to him as the source of my faith, and accept or reject any teachings of formal religion that I feel contradict his word. I can only speak for myself. Isn't that what we all do?

I do believe that there is a core of faith common to all religions. Those who don't believe in any religion still know the truth of those beliefs... striving to be respectful and loving of others and live a life that is honest and compassionate.

I also agree with you, Bobert, that God does not cause suffering. The most eloquent argument on that subject is in a wonderful book, Why Bad Things Happen To Good People by Harold Kushner. My copy has an inscription inside the cover from a dear friend who gave it to me many years ago. He is an Athiest.

As he would say, "Ain't life grand?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 04:38 PM

Well, Brother Jerry, thanks fir them kind words. One thing I have noticed not only around Mudcat but in other music sites is that folks don't step up too mcu and speak of Faith issues unless it is in intellectual way, which of course has really not much to do with ones spiritual self.

Now, I knwo there are lots of folks here who by their posting have deep senses of Faith but you kind of have to figure it out indirectly. But, we will be judged by our deeds, irregardless so, hey, it is individually okay for folks to keep their spritual stuff to themselves but I do worry about the collective with-holding. It says something about the culture, I think, where folks that don't hardly know each other will banter about sex but are embarrassed or reluctant to say one word about their Faith. Just a curious observation...

Yeah, I thought hard about hitting the "submit" button after writing my post. Not just because it was somewhat different from what everyone else was talking about, you know, with the quiz... but also because I do sense that's it's not okay to put that much of ones soul out there to get shot at. But, like I said in the post, the Holy Spirit moves within me and, like you have done here Jerry, just taken that step. Hey, maybe the fact that you and I have blazed the trail, so to speak, others may feel that what ever it is, the boogie man or whatever, that prevents folks from showing their spirtaul selves, is nothing but fear. Nothing else. No real boogie man, Just smoke...

PTL

Bobert

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Sep 02 - 06:25 PM

Well, I read the original questions. I'm sorry, NicoleC, if they really were all yours, but they read like they were lifted off a site heavily biased towards feminism & the christers (I'm neither).

Then I read through as much of the comments as I could stand. For those of you arguing/commenting about christianity, I'll only ask, have you read "Jesus, The Man", by Barbara Thiering? Being heathen, I have a biased p-o-v, so I will offer no opinion as to its 'truth'. Suffice to say, it's interesting reading &, regardless of your beliefs, ought to make you think.

For anyone (especially ardent christers) inclined to be sceptical about the way she has arrived at her conclusions, I refer to you Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" & "The White Goddess" for a compartive treatment of an entirely different religion...

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 09:48 AM

harpgirl - You said: "...what I dislike about the world's organized religions, and religious people in general, especially the ones I run into around here, is that they all seem to think they have a wrap on what virtuous behavior really is and that they have a right to enforce it on the rest of us imperfect non-whatevers......."

Yeah. You could say the same about political parties, and socio-political-ecomonomic systems (like American free market capitalism or Chinese centralized Communism or any number of other examples), and cultural systems like the above or New Guineau headhunters, for another example.

Of course, they are all organized religions too. They take ordinary natural life and overlay it with a set of fantastic artificial habits and assumptions which the average tribal member takes VERY seriously. :-) They just worship different deities, that's all. That all of the above systems are religions is immediately apparent to anyone who doesn't accept their basic premises of what existence is actually about.

- LH

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: wilco
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:02 PM

Historically, and culturally, we need to remember that these systems of belief developed in very primitive cultures, without the advantages of modern science. Many of these cultures that suppport these religions are having a very difficult time being relevant. In the western world, we have seen more wholesale cultural change in our lifetimes than have been seen in any group of centuries in human history. And, right now, its much faster in these contemporary non-western cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:38 AM

You must be kidding with your response to question (11) or I didn't understand the question. You have been asking in (10) for Islamic countries that have elected female presidents and in (11) ask for European countries to match that statistic. You must know that more than 10 European countries are on the reocrd for having elected female presidents etc.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: QUIZ: Comparative Western Religions
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:49 PM

Wolfgang,

The question was for any European country that had elected two female heads of state (#9). I should have swapped the question order. Only Ireland has elected two. (That I could find -- did I miss one?)