Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: blind will
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:41 PM

Thanks for the info Joe. I think I'll just leave my post as it is. My little explanation should be good enough.

You said that you see no place for aggressiveness in Christianity, and that many of the hymns with blood and warfare images, are very aggressive. Can you give me two or three examples of hymns that you feel are errant in promoting aggressiveness? I'm assuming Battle Hymn of the Republic would be in your list, though it's not the most typical hymn.

When I think of old hymns or congregational songs that refer to the blood of Jesus, there are a four that come to mind: There is Power In the Blood, Are You Washed In the Blood, There is a Fountain filled with Blood and Just As I Am (which is a favorite of mine). Neither of these four songs are aggressive, though maybe you see them that way?

There is also an old Sunday school song that refers to being in the Lords Army, which is obviously about a spiritual army battling a spiritual enemy (like that found in Ephesians 6). It hardly is errant in promoting aggression, certainly not an aggressive song in the normal use of the word (eg. murder, rape, losing temper at fellow Mudcatters, etc).


PS. Non of the four "blood hymns" I mentioned are hymns in the original use of the term, though one of them has a small portion of praise in it (so leans in that direction, but overall does not qualify).

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 02:00 AM

Joe, you say the difference does 'make' a difference..but who to? I personally believe that Jesus will be as accepting of praise from any scource and in whatever form. There is nothing in scripture that suggests He prefers a certain kind of song/hymn.... I think we should just leave it to Him... I am sure He will be happy with it all.. where we as humans/the flesh/ the sinners.... have personal preferences largely due to our framework of learning/growth/maturity in life.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:24 AM

Hi, Blind Will-
For a number of reasons, we don't have "edit" buttons available to Mudcatters. The best thing to do is copy the entire post and paste it into a message box, make corrections, and submit the corrected message. Our moderators are supposed to delete older versions of duplicate messages, but it's a good idea to ask a moderator (like me) for help.

If a song text comes from Scripture, I'm likely to like it. If not, then otherwise. I know the "blood of the Lamb" imagery comes from the Book of Revelation. The oxymoron of being washed in the blood of the Lamb is very powerful, but some songs get too bloody and warlike. The whole idea of the Book of Revelation is that the meek, gentle, loving Lamb conquers over the forces of violence and hatred - by shedding blood. I see no place for aggressiveness in Christianity, but many of the hymns with blood and warfare images, are very aggressive.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: blind will
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 12:43 AM

Just saw your post now Joe (after I wrote my second).

There would probably be some individual songs we could agree on. Your probably right about that.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: blind will
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 12:37 AM

I wish there was an Edit button for my last post. Referring to the lyrical quality of modern "praise song", I said I often prefer hymns for the lyrics. I should have said "old hymns" instead, since I consider many of these more modern songs to be hymns (as far as the biblical use of the word goes).

Is there no way to edit your own post? It kind of ruins what I was trying to say in the earlier part of my post.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 12:24 AM

...and well said, blind will. I think that you and I would disagree on characterizing broad categories of religious songs, but we might well agree on songs when considered one-by-one.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: blind will
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 12:06 AM

The distinction between hymns and praise songs is a modern distinction, that has nothing to do with the original use of the term "hymn".

The term "hymn" as used in the bible, simply refers to a "song of praise". But today, hymns usually refer to a certain group of old church songs, irrespective of weather they actually praise God or not. For instance, all the congregational songs of Fanny Crosby and Isaac Watts are considered hymns today, even though some of them aren't songs of praise. Meanwhile, the entire genre of what we now call "praise songs" is typically thrown out of the hymn category, even though many of them are true songs of praise (and therefore hymns by the more traditional use of the word).

The apostle Paul in the bible, refers to three types of song to be sung by congregations, hymns (songs of praise), psalms, and spiritual songs. There is however, a fair bit of overlap between these three categories and some songs can fit into all three at once. Some of the Psalms are very much hymns (songs of praise), but not all of them.

One should not totally dismiss the entire repertoire of modern "praise music" as shallow or "Jesus Is My Boyfriend" (a term that I disagree with). Neither should one totally dismiss the older congregational songs (hymn or otherwise). Their are spiritual gems and dross from both the modern and old. Sound theology is important, but I disagree with the notion that all or even most of modern "praise music" is promoting bad theology (less theological content would probably be more accurate). I also don't agree with throwing out all references to the blood of Christ or to his sacrifice (which some church hymn books are guilty of). Christianity without the cross of Christ is neither true Christianity or sound doctrine.

Quite often today's "praise music" is criticized for being emotional. But is it necessarily more emotional than the way the Israelites sung their songs in the bible? Just check out the Psalms for evidence, with references to dancing and shouting for joy (considered irreverent by some church traditions). I have heard some old time African American hymn singing, that is just as emotional in expression (often coming out of a very genuine faith in Christ). I'm not saying, we should throw our brains out, but I don't believe much of this criticism is coming out of anything biblically valid. A lot of it comes across as pharisitical to me.

There is much in the modern "praise" genre that I find distasteful. The strong lack of good poetry or well written artistic lyrics is common place (I often prefer hymns for the lyrics). But simple songs and repeated lyrics like chanting "holy, holy, holy" do have their place, and are often a genuine and biblically sound expression of faith. Yes, even if it's not to my musical taste (There is some praise music to my taste, though a lot of it sounds like drivel to me).

As for modern praise song borrowing from popular music, there is nothing new about this. The old gospel song or gospel hymn style of Fanny Crosby, Ira Sankey and others, was very similar and sometimes no different than the old parlor ballads (which was mostly a secular form of popular music, especially common in the 19th Century). The gospel song "In The Garden" is essentially just a sacred parlor ballad, sharing the same musical and lyrical form as the secular. It has very sentimental lyrics (common to the parlor songs) and very little theological content.

One might think that the "classical hymns" (based on the melodies or style of European classical composers) is free from any kind of popular music influence. But if one actually digs into the roots of classical music (as author Peter Van Merwe did in his book "Roots Of The Classical), one finds that it was partially based on older forms of European popular music. To put it simply, European classical music would not exist without the contribution of popular music, and thus the "classical hymns" are "tainted" by pop music.

That's my 2 cents.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 04:58 PM

Please forgive me if I'm breaking any rules, but this thread seems an ideal place to shamelessly plug my website, www.Music-Folk-Play-Hymns. The site features "play-along" videos of traditional hymns played on folk instruments by myself and assorted other amateurs. Chords and lyrics included, also sheet music, tab, hymn stories, etc. A good way to add to your hymn repertoire. Everyone is invited to participate by contributing hymn videos of your own playing and singing.

Thanks!

Nathan

---

No rules broken that I can see, Nathan. One of the purposes of Mudcat is to promote anything and all things related to music.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 09:27 AM

joe
it,s interesting that you think they should be theologically sound and i agree.however you earlier said that you have a problem with "blood of the lamb" theology ,and as i know you have theological training,i,m sure you know where it comes from.maybe i,m cheeky but does theologically sound in your book mean ok with a liberal perspective?.

i think a lot of the songs are shallow but there are notable exceptions eg in Christ alone by stuart townend.
is repitition necessarily bad?how will we do in heaven with endless "holy holy holy..."

a good example of an old hymn revamped well IMO is "and can it be" by phatfish,i think on youtube.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:39 AM

Yes, it does make a difference, Georgiansilver. "Jesus Is My Boyfriend" songs are shallow, and promote a shallow spirituality. I think a hymn text should have substance, preferably with roots in Scripture - something that's theologically sound, not just sentimental feelgood music.
A lot of old anthems don't meet the criterion of theological soundness, either. Having a catchy melody just isn't enough.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:58 AM

God is happy to receive praise in whatever form it comes..Hymns/Praise songs/Prayer.... does it really matter what individuals think?

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Genie
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM

My objection is not to having new church songs or simple choruses but to the tendency of some churches to do the new "praise choruses" almost exclusively, with only a token nod now and then to the older (and sometimes very beloved) old hymns.  This mirrors the commercial secular music industry too much -- let's focus on the music of the teens and 20-somethings and on "what's hot."  Throwing out all "praise songs" is equally unfortunate, since there are some lovely ones, and musical tastes will evolve with new generations.

Re: the "Hallelujah Chorus" as a praise song, let me clarify that it is the choral elaborations that set it apart from the way I usually hear praise songs done in church.  "Shine, Jesus, Shine" could, of course, be arranged for a choir as a complex piece of the same sort.  And, McGrath, even before your post about complex music done by "ordinary people," I was thinking that in a really get-down Gospel church, the spontaneous 'arrangements' of the music by the congregation are quite complex and interesting -- multiple harmonies, countermelodies, call-and-response, melodic variations, etc.  Choir arrangements are often even more "jazzed up" and elaborate.

The praise songs I've heard most often are not simpler than a lot of spirituals,Gospel and religious folk songs and "camp sing-along songs" such as "Do, Lord,"  "I've Got The Joy, Joy, Joy," "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," "Standin' In The Need Of Prayer," "Give Me Oil In My Lamp," "Let Us Break Bread Together," "Just A Closer Walk With Thee," etc.  But I've usually heard these songs sung with harmonies, "echo" parts, counterpoint, etc.  And when the piano (or even organ) was used to accompany the old hymns, folks could usually hear the bass, tenor, and alto lines, so it was not unusual to hear 2-, 3-, and even 4-part harmony from the congregation.  The harmony parts are seldom that clear when the guitar is the back-up instrument, and I usually hear the praise choruses done almost exclusively in unison.  Maybe it's just the churches I've gone to.

Genie

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 09:18 AM

So it's a good praise song, as opposed to a dismally bad praise song. There's plenty of musically "complex" religious music sung by ordinary people, such as the "village carols" sung in pubs round Sheffield. Lots of Gospel music is complicated enough. Sacred Harp, West Gallery, Latin American...

I suppose it wopild me posible to define "praise songs" in a way that requires that it has to be be very very simple and uninspiring, but I don't think that would be a useful or valid definition.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:57 AM

pastorpest...I like your hymn book, Voices United. It, and the new Anglican Church of Canada's Common Praise, are both much better than the previous jointly owned The Hymn Book. I have a soft spot for The Hymn Book though, because of hymns like Every Star Shall Sing A Carol, and because I used the book throughout a happy period of my family's life.

Voices United also has one of my Dad's hymn tunes in it, though arguably not his best, just his best known. The folk process applies to hymns as much as anything.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: pastorpest
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:56 PM

I have enjoyed this thread! I do not like praise whatever it is either. Somehow it is like OD'ng on cotton candy. When it comes to hymns, we are living in the era of church history in which the most hymns are being written. There are so many new hymns to choose among that just finding the new good ones is a task.

I recently attended a workshop on the history of the denomination to which I belong, The United Church of Canada, through the hymns we sing. What a stimulating way it was to understand the issues, and ways of believing for generations past, and appreciate those who went before.

but I am glad to have new hymns that leave behind the heavy duty god who is high and lifted up. Give me hymns to help experience the compassionate One in the here and now. I cannot handle the blood and sarifice images of the past and even worse, the military images. I am grateful for new hymns that include heart with head.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 08:42 PM

No way is Handel's "Hallelujah!" Chorus the same genre of music as what we currently know as "praise songs." I don't care if it does repeat phrases and has few chords. It's still musically much more complex -- and interesting -- than any "praise chorus" I've yet to hear.

Genie

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Cubs
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 04:20 PM

Pardon a new poster, but there are too many interesting points in this thread for me to leave it alone. I have been heavily involved in church music much of my life. More than thirty years ago, in the church in which I was raised, the first church my family attended that did not use my mother as an accompanist, I sang in the Chancel Choir and was part of the folk group the did the Episcopalian's Folk Mass for the Service of Communion on World Communion Sunday in 1966.

For the past twenty years, in the church in which my son was raised, I sang in the Chancel Choir and was the constant member of the Praise Team. The last ten years we had an integrated service, praise opening, worship for communion and three hymns. Last spring the new pastor fired the Praise Team.

A couple of questions have been asked in this thread that I can address and will.

"How many "praise songs" would rank among the world's most beloved sacred music pieces, in comparison to the number of "hymns" that would."

That is for history to decide. Charles Wesley wrote about 6,000 hymns. There are 51 hymns by him in the current United Methodist Hymnal down from 77 in the hymnal that preceded it. There is an editing process to history. Some of the modern songs will undoubtedly be added to the pantheon and some of the older songs will be removed. (IMNSHO prime candidates for addition include "Spirit Song", "Shine, Jesus, Shine", "Shine On Us", "For The Glory Of Your Name" and "The River Is Here.")

"Hallelujah!" certainly qualifies as a Praise song. It is essentially a three-chord song (with an occasional hint at a Major super-tonic and a very brief foray into the relative minor necessitating a minor sub-mediant and a Major mediant), it repeats one word incessantly, and has an unusual ending (sub-dominant to tonic).

One last comment, then I will close. A previous poster wrote that at one point early in Praise songs composers had just discovered suspended chords. The discovery of the nineties was half-diminished chords (minor 7th, flat 5). Pity.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:05 AM

Shouldn't think so - it requires complex harmonies, and people singing different parts of the text simultaneously.
Penny

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 06:45 AM

Now does Handel's Hallelujah Chorus count as a "praise song":

And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings! and Lord of lords!
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings! and Lord of lords!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:10 AM

Just wondering how many "praise songs" would rank among the world's most beloved sacred music pieces, in comparison to the number of "hymns" that would.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Genie
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:04 PM

take a look here: www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50011#798715

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:01 PM

I'd probably sing "Star of the Sea" - "Pray for the wanderer, pray for me"...

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Genie
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:54 PM


Heely  said "Just a thought from an old organist /choirmaster: my
choir members say that a hymn is what you remember when you are lying on
a guerney outside of the operating room. A praise song is what you recover
to.

 I have choir members who have recalled the hymns they sang in
their minds while under the white sheet waiting for the operation in the
cold waiting

 area. Think about it; His Eye Is On The Sparrow 
or Lord, I Lift Your Name On High.   I know what I would
sing.

<a href="http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50011#798715">
Here </a> is the story of what happened to me last Monday while doing
music therapy in a convalescent/rehab. center.  It strongly echoes
your point.

Genie

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:40 PM

Well the even older usage would have been "awful", with pretty well the same meaning as awesome, and I suppose we'd be hesitant of using that in that kind of context these days. Mind you, it might be quite an appropriate word to apply to some reputedly "awesome" performers.

It occurs to me that since most people probably do that much flitting around between churches, it's easy enough to fall into the trap of generalising from limited experience. "Why does no one ever sing such-and-such these days" - and in the next parish (or congregation) they're still singing it as a matter of course.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Genie
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:18 PM

My sister's church, which leans heavily toward the praise choruses, did a Christmas Cantata last year.  
During a slide show, they sang excerpts from traditional, well-loved Christmas carols, and the congregation sang
two or three of them during the service.   But during the main part of the cantata, I suddenly found myself wanting to scream!
On reflection, I realized that the drum beat reminded me of the old disco days, when the same beat would be played continuously for hours.  
Every one of the new Christmas choruses they sang had the same moderately slow 2/4 (maybe 4/4) beat, with a strong back beat and a latin-ish sounding syncopation. This was so overpowering that it distracted me from any differences in the words or melodies of the various choruses.

On a similar note, I heard a parody of a very popular praise chorus
("I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever") a while back.   It went:
"I could sing the same line forever,
I could sing the same line forever,
I could sing the same line forever,
I could sing the same line forever..." (repeat, fading out).

I'll admit that many of the old hymns had unnecessarily flowerly language (characteristic of the poetry of their time),
many of the tunes/arrangements were befitting a marching band, and the theology was sometimes questionable at best
(e.g., one line of "God Will Take Care Of You" asserts "...Nothing you ask will be denied...")--
many of them, that is, would not pass muster on Susan's well-thought-out critera.
But many were set to tunes by Haydn, Bach, Beethoven, beautiful old folk tunes, or other muscially interesting and pleasing melodies.
(FWIW, I can play most of the melodies on my guitar, and I'm not a regular user of "jam buster" chords.)
 

If the classic songs of Gershwin, Berlin, Arlen, Porter, Ellington, and others can be revived (after the de rigeur hiatus of the adolescence
of the offspring of the first generation of folks who loved them), if classical music survives across generations in the secular arena,
and if some of the old spirituals and Gospel songs are also appreciated by multiple generations, why should this not also be true of Sunday morning church music?
I thought the idea was that over succeeding generations, we tend to discard the poor and mediocre songs of an era and keep the gems.

Genie

BTW, John Hardly, I think you're onto something, there.
 

One more comment:  There was a time when "awesome" was the kind of word one would use for God and not for a new skateboard or for Britney Spears's navel.  Given its overuse in Valley Girl parlance, I find the word rather irritating in the context of most praise songs.  In "How Great Thou Art," the line "Oh, Lord, my God, when I in awesome wonder consider all the worlds Thy hands have made ..." expresses the truer meaning of the word -- I am filled with awe, my wonder is full of awe.  As an adjective to describe the object being considered, the term seems a misuse.  God is awe-inspiring (and maybe the skateboard is, too, but I have yet to see a skateboard that good).  It is my feeling for God that is "awesome"--not God."  [Yeah, yeah, go on and give me the lecture about language being a changing, living thing.  But I've told you why the contemporary use of "awesome" in praise choruses rubs me the wrong way.]

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,Pooby
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM

When I saw Kaleea's reference yesterday to "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" being one of three favorite "foxhole songs," I thought of how a friend and I have occasionally reworked that song from its traditional hymn styling to be almost a bluegrass breakdown. Don't know how it would work in the cozy confines of my Lutheran church, but around the campfire at retreats, it totally kicks butt. Start it out with an easy a cappella intro based on the last two lines of the first verse, then crank it up into a cut-tempo, preferably with standard BG instrumentation (banjo, mandolin and dobro would work big time), three- or four-part high lonesome harmonies, and an instrumental break or two in between the verses.

OK, so maybe the purpose of hymn singing isn't exactly to "kick butt," but at the same time let's not overlook the Psalm's encouragement to "make a joyful noise to the Lord." Personally, I hope the world of organized religion is big enough to have room for both the trad hymns and the more contemporary praise songs. (Sure, there are examples from both genres of songs that suck, ones that make you either want to gag or giggle. But why should church music be any different from the rest of the musical world?)

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:49 PM

Here's one by TS Eliot I've always rather liked (praise song or hymn? Couldn't say.) Some might say it's got some cryptic meaning, but I prefer to read it as just about a hippopotamus.

The broad-backed hippopotamus
Rests on his belly in the mud;
Although he seems so firm to us
He is merely flesh and blood.

Flesh and blood is weak and frail,      
Susceptible to nervous shock;
While the True Church can never fail
For it is based upon a rock.

The hippo's feeble steps may err
In compassing material ends,         
While the True Church need never stir
To gather in its dividends.

The 'potamus can never reach
The mango on the mango-tree;
But fruits of pomegranate and peach      
Refresh the Church from over sea.

At mating time the hippo's voice
Betrays inflexions hoarse and odd,
But every week we hear rejoice
The Church, at being one with God.         

The hippopotamus's day
Is passed in sleep; at night he hunts;
God works in a mysterious way—
The Church can sleep and feed at once.

I saw the 'potamus take wing         
Ascending from the damp savannas,
And quiring angels round him sing
The praise of God, in loud hosannas.

Blood of the Lamb shall wash him clean
And him shall heavenly arms enfold,         
Among the saints he shall be seen
Performing on a harp of gold.

He shall be washed as white as snow,
By all the martyr'd virgins kist,
While the True Church remains below         
Wrapt in the old miasmal mist.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:42 PM

"...the ones controlled by hymn boards"

I thought hymn boards were those boards where they stick up the hymn numbers just before a service.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Burke
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:30 PM

My direct current contact with the Praise music is pretty limited so I have a certain hesitation about joining in. The church I go to does Episcopalian hymns & does them well.

I go to church with my sisters on occasion. They both go to churches of the denomination we grew up attending. One goes to a traditional church & everything about it, including its hymn singing, is just deadly. The other goes to a contemporary format church, they do it well. I'm not crazy about it, but given a choice between the two, I'd take the contemporary church.

I think what has happened is that there have always been churches that could not get good organists, etc, & their hymn singing could be pretty bad. They may have switched formats to fix the problem, but still do it badly so there's been no real gain & a loss to the people who at least liked the old music. This practice of developing new music because of perceived problems with the current practice is very old. Read sometime about the mid 18th cent. singing school music that replaced the 'old way' of hymn singing.

It just seems to me that some of the older hymns & songs are being somewhat idealized. I love singing "In the Sweet Bye & Bye" or "Unclouded Day," but I can't credit them with profound religious thoughts. I only recently realized that some choruses I feel like I've known forever actually have verses. "Oh How I love Jesus" or "At the Cross, at the Cross" as stand alone chouses are much the same as the new choruses.

One simple song I thought was a modern praise song is "There are angels hovering 'round." (sing 3 times, that's it) Imagine my surprise when I found it in an 1890's hymn book. I think 2 notes were different from what I learned orally & there were a few more one line verses, not much different.

I'm an avid Sacred Harp singer. I find some words very moving & expressing the hardships of life & faith that we don't sing anymore. I also really like songs like Weeping Pilgrim. The whole text is pretty much, I'm a mourning pilgrim & I'm bound for Cannan. Older idea, but just a simple & repetitive as modern songs. (no link due to connect problems)

To me the critical issue is appropriateness to the setting. I like bluegrass Gospel, but don't want to sing it in church. In a formal, liturgical service a certain formality to the music also seems right. In an informal setting more informal music works.

Informal worship settings have always used very easy to learn choruses & been distained by the music establishment. The Sacred Harp is full of choruses adapted from the Camp Meetings. D.L. Moody found great evangelical success with gospel choruses. Billy Graham gave us a different bunch. The ones we have now are coming from Cursillo retreats & Promise Keeper rallies. People that 'get religion' in these kinds of settings often want the same music when they go to church. Traditionally the more independent churches would adopt them while the ones controlled by hymn boards would not.

There's nothing new in any of this debate, only some of the specifics.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: IanC
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:57 AM

garg

Only the Matthew and John quotes are from the historical New Testament (i.e. "The Gospels") the rest are commentary. None of them suggests that believing in "The Blood of The Lamb" is a prerequisite of being Christian.

As regards the Quaker quote you provided, individual Quakers are entitled to their own viewpoints (we are non credal), but it is very far out of line with the experience of the vast majority of Quakers in the UK.

Here's the abstract from a very old, traditional, quaker view from Barclay's Apology - Proposition 13.

THE THIRTEENTH PROPOSITION

Concerning the Communion, or Participation of the Body and Blood of Christ.

The communion of the body and blood of Christ is inward and spiritual, which is the participation of his flesh and blood, by which the inward man is daily nourished in the hearts of those in whom Christ dwells; of which things the breaking of bread by Christ with his disciples was a figure, which they even used in the church for a time, who had received the substance, for the cause of the weak; even as "abstaining from things strangled, and from blood;" the washing one another's feet, and the anointing of the sick with oil; all which are commanded with no less authority and solemnity than the former; yet seeing they are but the shadows of better things, they cease in such as have obtained the substance.

:-)

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:09 AM

1Peter 1:19 For you know that you were redeemed from your empty way of life inherited from the fathers, not with perishable things, like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Here is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look! The Lamb of God!"

Rev 5:6 Then I saw one like a slaughtered lamb standing between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth.

Rev 7:17 Because the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them; He will guide them to springs of living waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: Blessed are those invited to the marriage feast of the Lamb!" He also said to me, "These words of God are true."

Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mat 26:27-28 Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks, He gave it to them and said, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

"Christ takes the punishment we deserve. He bore the curse laid on us for having broken those principles which in our mind we accept....Recipients of grace follow Christ as Lord by taking up the Cross, by enduring hardness, by joining in the Lamb's war...." QUAKER Commentary - From Robert's Reflections - Northwest Yearly Meeting of Friends http://www.nwfriends.org/RobertsReflec/arobertaug02.html

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 09:15 AM

From my Dad's distant past:

The Church's one frustration,
It is the chancel choir.
T'will never sway the nation,
Nor set the world on fire.
While organ's pedals thunder
and fill us all with ire,
We all with scornful wonder
From services retire.

Tune: Aurelia
Words: unattributed

Given that the old boy remembered these words from his childhood in the 1920s, I suppose that there has always been uncomfort in the pews regarding the music.

I had occasion recently to visit a small rural parish church which had both a modern(ish) electronic organ and an old pump organ, the latter with no visible evidence of current use. Being that there was no one about that weekday except my family and I, I tried both organs. The new(ish) one sounded like crap, every single stop. The old pumper however, sounded like angel's wings. Except for obvious bellows work there wasn't much wrong with it. I'd love to have one of things in my home! It seemed to me another indication of where the sound of church music is going. The timbre is not right to my ears. Compared to that weepy electronic abomination, I'll take a folk band or any day. And therein is the rub. We make do with what we can afford in our churches, assuming that much of what we give is for the glory of God in "outreach" rather than in worship, and it seems of late that outreach and worship grow apart.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:53 AM

The organist at the church I used to go to explained the difference between hymns and gospel music for us once. He said that gospel music is about a personal experience with God(which is true) and that hymns are songs of praise. He gave as an example of a song that is not a hymn, In The Garden, and added that he was taught never to play that song because it is dangerous. I found that amusing. I told him that it was Mother's favorite hymn, and asked why it was not a hymn. He answered with rather circular reasoning, "Because it's not in our hymnal." When I pointed out that it is in most hymnals (and refrained from making any wisecracks about Dead European Composer) he just brushed it off. When I asked him why it was "dangerous", he quoted a line from the song.."And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known." He said that it makes it sound as if the singer is the only person who has ever known joy with Jesus. I said that it doesn't say that... it says "the joy WE share," and that each person has a unique relationship with Jesus, because each person is unique. He didn't buy that at all... stuck to his guns. It made me smile to think that my Mother is dangerous in his eyes, because that is probably her favorite hymn.

When I was asked to do a song during the summer service, when the organist and choir toook a vacation, guess what song I did? You got it. And McGrath, I did it on banjo, and to the credit of the Assistant Choir Director who was definitely into DEC, he said he couldn't imagine anyone doing it as well on the organ. A man with a not completely ossified mind... Good for him!

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:44 AM

Interesting how this discussion exactly paralles all those "what is folk music/what happened to folk clubs?" threads. Half the people want to stick to time-tested material, the other half want to try out New Improved Relevant stuff to entice back the Young People.And each group blames the other for the remorseless leakage of audience. Intriguingly, however, not all Mudcatter take the same sides in the arguments; we seem to have soe people who are all for the New in churches but like the Old in folk-music.
   On a purely persomal note:
(1) At my funeral you'll get "Abide with me", "Cwm Rhonnda" and "The Day thou gavest" and you can bloody well put up with it. Guitars and Ned Flanders unctuous smiles can be left outside.
(2) The other day I inadvertently tuned in to a Christian Radio Station in Stoke(UK). Up to then I had innocently assumed such things were a trans-Atlantic phenomenon. After a couple of songs and a bit of inspirational chat I was in desperate need of one of those brown paper bags they thoughtfully provide on planes.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:37 AM

"Banjo and organ duo... that'd be like a cricket singing underneath Niagara Falls."

That's a good analogy Jerry, and that's what I like about the thought of that combination. Have to turn down the volume of Niagara Falls, and turn up the cricket, so that it could just be heard, bravely making its voice heard. It'd be easier to do that with an organ and banjo.

I've heard a mountain dulcimer successfully played along with a hurdy gurdy (not in church), and if you can do that you can do anything.

This distinction between "praise songs" and "hymns" seems a strange one to me. All hymns are praise songs. There are different types of hymns, and all the different types of hymns include some great ones and some terrible ones. And a lot of ones which are part good and part not so good, like most people.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Bagpuss
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:24 AM

What are "old hymns"?

I used to play is what would probably be called a "folk group" at church. One day an old lady came up to us and said she liked listening to us play, but wished we would play more of the old hymns. I asked her which old hymns she particularly liked and we would see whether they could be arranged for the instruments we used. She mentioned two very old hymns, and two fairly new hymns our group had introduced several years earlier and had been taken up by the organ (which played at another service). So now because they had been played at the more "traditional" mass with the organ and sung enough times, they were now considered "old hymns".

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:12 AM

Slipped out of the pedant thread have you, Nigel? Always messing up opinionated arguments with uncomfortable facts.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 04:38 AM

IanC: Matthew 26 vv27-28

Nigel

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: IanC
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 04:35 AM

Garg

Glad you think I'm going to hell (along, presumably, with all the other Quakers). Somehow it's a comfort.

Tell me where you think that the concept of "The Blood of The Lamb" appears in the historical new testament.

:-)

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 04:20 AM

From 40 years with the same church choir, I have tried most hymn styles. We switched hymn books from "Hymns Ancient & Modern" to "Hymns Ancient & Modern - Revised" in 1974. Not a great change, but some of the words had been up-dated, and in momentary lapses if I'm singing without checking I still sometimes revert to the old words.
We do use 'Modern' hymns, "20th Century Hymns" and will soon be changing our hymn book Again.But I trust we will continue with most of the old standards.
Quite a few messages above give the impression that the same 'standards' are used almost week-in-week-out, this could get boring (although you do learn the hymns!). A good organist, or the vicar, (depending on who chooses) will select hymns to match the church's seasons. So a good selection can be seen over a period.

'Canting' (Chanting?) was mentioned above, so a quick cross reference to Metrical Psalms is needed here.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 01:04 AM


I've been a church musician since before I was in school. When I was a youngster in a bible belt church, I wanted to abandon the old hymns--well, most of 'em--& move into what was at that time the beginnings of praise music. Now that I approach mid life, I want to hear & sing hymns, chorales, & old time gospel such as Mahalia Jackson used to sing. Funny that in the early 1960's a little white gal such as myself would have records of Mahalia Jacoson, Ray Charles, the Beatles, Count Basie, Glen Miller, (& lots of other swing bands!), Duke Ellington, Strauss, & a host of other genres of music. When I am asked to sing for a wedding or funeral, ordination, rosary (funny thing is I'm not Catholic-but who cares?), they want to hear the good old HYMNS!! As a (civilian) choir director for the Army way back when I was a young woman, A Chaplain told me that in the 3 wars he had worked as a Chaplain, there were 3 particular songs which were most always requested in the fox holes & under bridges: What a Friend We Have In Jesus, Just a Closer Walk With Thee, & Amazing Grace. They are still on the top of my list of most requested hymns.
I've never had anyone request "praise songs" for a funeral. With the recent events, & sad economy which has many scrambling for their livlihood, I am seeing a resurrgence of the good old Hymns. They bring us great comfort, & remind us of where we come from--our early church training--, something solid to hold on to so that we can make it through the times of uncertainty & need. I agree with WYSIWYG--the folks who sing only the praise genre are looking for an emotional experience. I can tell you from experience that those groups who travel & sing, as well as traveling evengelists are as all other groups of humans. Some are good people who are doing what they think is right. There will always be a certain percentage who are looking for the money which can be lucrative if they really get the congregation feeling the "guilt" so that they'll be more susceptable to opeing their wallets & purses wider to empty them out. Some are actually immoral (or make the attempt) with the young girls (or boys!) of the church who are told "it's what God [allegedly] wants us to do, it's "God's will!." That is very sad. And, yes, there are some lyrics which sound ridiculous: "Eat my body, drink my blood." Once about 10 years back, after a black Friday service (Friday before Easter when Jesus dies on the cross which is usually described in utter detail to help bring on the guilt)) Some kids asked us if we were in a "cult." They thought that it was quite similar to the activities of some practicing "wicca, candle magic, or whatever."
We explained to them the meanings of things, & then they thought that was " not as cool." Go figure.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: TNDARLN
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:02 AM

Several thoughts here:

Wilco, you know what my ideas are about old hymns and where to find 'em!

McGrath says "For some reason I find cheerful songs are generally particularly depressing. I think that's probably because they feel like they're lying. Life can be pretty grim at times, and you have to find a way of getting through it and a way being joyful in the face of it. Cheerful happy stuff doesn't help with that, and that's where a lot of older hymns are better - they understand that; and the good new ones do as well."

Well said!! I think that may be one of the reasons I love the minor/Dorian Sacred Harp tunes-- this life is full of troubles, but there's A Better Land a'comin' [and Burke, I know that's a major tune, but it makes the point] I draw strength from the knowledge that these old minor tunes were a source of strength for those gone on before- many of whom suffered more hardships than I'll ever know...

And Susan, I love the criteria you set forth. That's really what it's all about.

Today I was driving home from a weekend with my folks, and was still out of range of my favorite Moody Bible radio station, and had to [or did, for awhile]settle for a local Christian station's take on praise music. "Our God is awesome" over and over, and I about gagged. Now, I love "Our God is an Awesome God" [Rich Mullins] which has rhythm, rhymes, and presents a strong statement. I wondered how much difference was due to the placement of the word awesome in the line? Then, a bit later, they played several Brittany Spears-type jingles in a row...arghh.

OTOH, I have found myself singing the words to Confidence [270]in the Sacred Harp today, anticipating the President's speech. [and, not to go political, but to explain that, while he has my support, my faith is in One Much Higher] "Away my unbelieving fear; fear shall in me no more have place. My Saviour does not yet appear; He hides the Glory of His face. But shall I therefore let Him go, and basely to the tempter yield? No, in the strength Jesus, no, I never will give up my Shield"

These days we need strong words....or at least, I do.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:51 PM

The blood of the lamb, and blood of sacrifices goes back to a very primitive time when the blood was thought to be the life of an animal. When the blood was drained from an animal, it died, so I suppose that it was natural to associate the "life" as being the blood. The reference to the blood of the Lamb is more easily taken as meaning the life, or soul of Jesus.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:45 PM

'twas me above. I didn't realize I was cookie-less

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:43 PM

I really identify with what mooh wrote (even down to the fact that I too play fingerstyle hymns for my own enjoyment).

I do feel like the music in the church is just symptomatic of changes that have made me feel like a stranger in church these days. I think that though church music has been moving toward a personal, relational Christianity, in the last few decades it's made a mad rush toward that exclusively.

A case in point -- if 50 years ago you had asked the typical conservative/fundamental/evangelical Christian if he was the "bride of Christ", he would have answered unequivocally that he was not. He would respond that the church is the "bride of Christ"

If you ask the same question in the same kind of church today you would almost certainly get an affirmative answer.

The music now is imitative of pop love songs because that is the kind of relationship the modern Christian is being told is true Christianity/the goal of Christianity.

If you listen to the individual voices in these praise services I think you'll find that it sounds like hundreds of solo singers singing the way they've heard their pop-christian music icons sing the song.

The beautiful (and very Christian) image of voices submitting to one another in harmony is missing. But then, the theology has moved toward the heightened importance of the individual.

It isn't that easy for both types of music to coexist. We use the arts to help us express our understanding of an invisible God and, though we know our imagery is imperfect, we take comfort in some sort of concrete picture of the God we envision in our imaginations.

With the modern praise expressing an image of a God so vastly different conceptually from the God of the hymn, it's no doubt going to cause a conflict.

I think that the new praise music is also not conceptually as related to the hymn as it is to chanting. This is a period in the protestant church where gnosticism is seeing a huge revival, and the praise music is filling the functional role of a chant -- that is, its intellectual content is secondary to its practical function of manipulating emotion.

Even when scripture is directly lifted for use in the music it is usually not becasue of the intellectual content of that scripture -- rather, it is used because it "sounds religious" and therefore is effective in manipulating the singers to "feel religious".

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:54 PM

IianC and Mr. Joe - if your "Christianity" is not based on Christ's blood sacrifice for your sins....I can unequivocally state that you ARE going to Hell....because your "christianity" is not "Christianity" .... for all of the other religions.... that's up to God to sort out the details.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

WYSIWYG - as a Christian preacher's wife - please explain the basic tenets of Christianity to this flock of song-birds.

---

Sorry, Gargoyle, but I can't buy the idea of a lamb, or a Christ, or anyone or anything being sacrificed to appease an angry God. How can we say that God is good, and then feel forced to appease Him by killing something?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:38 PM

Banjo and organ duo... that'd be like a cricket singing underneath Niagara Falls. I used to go to a Lutheran Church that ended up installing a church that was a little too large for Yankee stadium. When the organist played, every one's hair blew forward ... it was at the back of the church. After a few Sundays trying to sing, when I couldn't even hear myself, I gave up. It used to irritate me that all the music that was played in the church was by DEC... Dead European Composers. I can just about abide strummed nylon string guitars and the new songs at folk services, but when songs are in keys that can only be sung if you're a tenor, and the organ makes you feel like you're in a wind tunnel, I give up. (I did play banjo and lead old hymns in that same church, by the way. But only when the choir and the organist were on vacation..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,trying to learn patience
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM

For years now, we've used a praise hymnal that only gets worse with every new edition. I think the musical inspirations come from summer camp singalongs, the worse kinds of broadway shows and TV commercials. But I notice that the latest edition irritates me because of the gender-inclusive language. Not that I necessarily object to it in principle, but just that I now get whiplash trying to recover from my last-edition habits, in which the Deity is a He, a Father, the Savior is a Son, and all that. But note: I'm getting annoyed with them for trifling with those good old songs that have always annoyed the beejeebers outta me. Then when I compare the lyrics of the great old hymns I love, well, some of THEM are pretty banal. So let's acknowledge that 90% of the music (poetry, film, TV) of any time period is junk, that the good stuff stands the test of time, and that we love has less to do with intrinsic quality than that it's the soundtrack to a large chunk of our lives. C'mon, haven't you caught yourself humming along with an oldies station and suddenly realized, "hey, I always thought that song was garbage..."

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:48 PM

Well, having had my own music influenced by the likes of Emmy Lou Harris, the Bryds, Mason Proffit, Son House and the like, there is a large part of me that goes for the "Praise Music". Songs like "I Like the Chistain Life", "When He Calls", "Jesus is My Rock", etc. are songs that are very much part of me and my relationship with the Lord. *But* it's my medium and it is what I have to sing praise...

Hymns, for the most part seem a tad stuffy in their composition thou in the hands of trained singers are absolutely beautiful and rival any of the stuff we "folkies". And some folkie praise songs are actually lesser known hymns. If I am not mistaken, "I'll Fly Away" is found in some Catholic hymnals.

But bottom line, if you're singing praise, then God is 'a hearin' you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM

Ah, go on and try it Wesley - you could offend both lots at the same time. I think it could be a rivetting new sound. Genuine musical ecumenism.