BS: Northern Ireland Mess

Subject: BS: Northern Ireland Bloody Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:20 PM

"The fools, the fools, the fools." - Padraig Pearse

Fundamentally, the Orange rejectionists have brought this to pass; but Sinn Fein/IRA, with their double-gaming bets-hedging, are immorally complicit --and STUPIDLY so, to put the tin hat on it. The GFA is in THEIR political interests, not in the Unionists'.

A plague upon Paisley & Adams both. *All* their paramilitaries need to be disbanded, God damn it. "Gradh mo chroi, I long to see, the Boys of the Old Brigade" -- TOUGH SHIT! Farewell and adieu to 'em. Enough with the George Mitchell stuff already. Disarm the bastards.
Bah.

OK, there, I've said it. I now await McGrath of Harlow's rational balanced perspective & calming wisdom. And others' too of course. Article below. Aplolgies for its length, & my rant.

--Pooka, steamed

Britain to Run Northern Ireland
7:54 AM EDT,October 14, 2002
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer

BELFAST, Northern Ireland -- Britain will strip power from local Catholic and Protestant politicians on Monday night and resume sole responsibility for running Northern Ireland, the British governor announced.

Northern Ireland Secretary John Reid said the order to suspend the authority of Northern Ireland's power-sharing administration and legislature would take effect at midnight (7 p.m. EDT) and last indefinitely.

The prime ministers of Britain and Ireland, Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, said they were "deeply saddened" by the move. But in a joint statement the premiers said it would prevent the outright collapse of the coalition, which has taken years of negotiations to forge and sustain.

"It is our sincere wish that the Northern Ireland institutions be restored as soon as possible," said Blair and Ahern, whose close cooperation paved the way for the province's Good Friday peace pact of 1998.

Britain has successfully shut down and revived the Catholic-Protestant administration before. But analysts predict this crisis will be the toughest yet to resolve because of rising Protestant hostility to sharing power with Sinn Fein, the Irish Republican Army-linked party that has grown increasingly popular among Catholics, thanks to the peace process.

However, many people on both sides of this still-divided community remain confident that the political crisis won't trigger widespread bloodshed by Northern Ireland's myriad armed groups.

Reid's announcement followed a threat by the major Protestant party, the Ulster Unionists, to withdraw from power-sharing because of alleged IRA spying. First Minister David Trimble, leader of the Ulster Unionists and the local administration, had set Tuesday as a deadline for Britain to intervene.

Trimble wanted Reid to expel Sinn Fein rather than to take power from all four parties in the coalition. Trimble said he accepted Reid's move as "a poor second best," and offered to resume cooperation with Sinn Fein if the IRA disbanded.

Four people, including Sinn Fein's top legislative aide, are behind bars awaiting trial for espionage-related charges following police raids Oct. 4. The suspects are accused of stealing documents from Reid's office that allegedly include details of potential IRA targets and records of talks between Britain and other key parties.

Reid said the accusations against Sinn Fein had damaged Protestant confidence, but kicking out any party now would be premature. He expressed hope that negotiations in coming months would rebuild trust, and allow Britain to restore power to locals before elections to Northern Ireland's legislature in May.

In their joint statement, Blair and Ahern signaled that restoring Ulster Unionist-Sinn Fein relations would require a clear-cut end to IRA activity.

The premiers said Sinn Fein's connections to an illegal underground organization must be "brought to an unambiguous and definitive conclusion."

"It is now essential that the concerns around the commitment to exclusively democratic and nonviolent means are removed. The time has come for people to clearly choose one track or the other," Blair and Ahern said.

The British move meant the Monday afternoon debate inside Northern Ireland's 108-member legislature would be its last for the foreseeable future.

Reid, a Scotsman appointed by Prime Minister Tony Blair in 2000, will oversee Northern Ireland's 12 government departments with help from a beefed-up contingent of four lawmakers from London.

Reid said he planned to consult regularly, starting next week, with the powerless administration's top two figures -- Trimble and the Catholic deputy leader, Social Democratic and Labor Party chief Mark Durkan -- to promote continuity and minimize government disruption.

Monday's suspension of powers was the fourth ordered by Britain since Trimble's coalition took office in December 1999, following a U.S.-brokered compromise. Under that plan, Sinn Fein received two administration posts on condition that the IRA began to disarm. Britain resumed sole control in February 2000, after disarmament officials confirmed that the IRA had yet to get rid of any weapons. Three months later, Britain switched power back to local hands after the IRA pledged to put its stockpiled weaponry "beyond use."

When no disarmament followed, however, Trimble resigned as government leader in July 2001, and vowed not to return until the IRA moved.

Britain used two short suspensions of power to extend the deadline for Trimble's re-election until the IRA secretly scrapped a few arms dumps in October 2001. But the belated IRA move did little to ease opposition to Trimble in the legislature, where Protestant hard-liners came within a few votes of blocking his return to power.

Protestant hostility to Sinn Fein has swelled this year alongside mounting police allegations against the IRA, which is largely observing a 1997 cease-fire but remains active in the most hard-line Catholic areas.

Among the accusations -- all denied by the IRA -- are that the outlawed group stole police documents detailing its informer network; keeps gathering intelligence and training for a potential end to its 1997 cease-fire; kills drug dealers and wounds criminal rivals in its Catholic power bases; and directs mob attacks on police.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:34 PM

As far as I can see,Ireland in general has been a mess since Cromwell.
And neither side seems to have made any real effort to anything but try to be King of the Castle,as though it was a childs game and not a slightly more serious matter.As someone who was raised a Catholic,
and a Socialist my inclination was toward the Republican viewpoint
until the extremists hijacked the Civil Rights Movement.then I realised that ALL the extremists are just as bad as each other.As
you say ITS A MESS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:05 PM

Two steps forward and one step back, when you're lucky. Sometimes it's the other way round. But in any case, the only thing to do is pick up the cards and start building the cardhouse once again.

I suspect that Gerry Adams has been pushing as hard as possible on the more intractable elements in the IRA to ease up on the peripheral stuff. The main ceasefire has been held, at any rate. The worry now must be that things might happen that make it break down, and no doubt there are people who want that to happen, and can be expected to do things to try and provoke that. (Including "black propaganda" - it's often forgotten that the first use of bombings in Northern Ireland in the Troubles that started in the Sixties was ascribed to the IRA at the time, which had significant consequences, but much later turned out to have definitely been a Loyalist operation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

Thank you Kevin. Knew you'd come through. I feel better already. Really, I do. (Well. Somewhat.)

Yes, and there's even been speculation that "the more intractable elements" might see their way clear to "pushing as hard as possible" back on Gerry, in ways such as to constitute rather a health hazard. Collins y'know. "The 'Staters came to Dublin town equipped with British guns..." and all that shite. Hmmph. / O so it's "the peripheral stuff" izzit!! Collateral damage, begob. / YEAHyeah I know I know...grumblegrumble...I'm gettin' there McG., gimme time...

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

Much interesting background in a new book "A secret history of the IRA" by Ed Moloney. Allen Lane, 2002. ISBN 0 71399 665 X. The title should have added "since 1969".

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:29 PM

Hm. Thanks Tim. Looked it up online; looks excellent. Blurb says Adams a very complex figure. (Rrmmph. Complex *this*. Still simmering down, here...)

Somwhere in the rubble I have an old one, "The Secret Army: A History of the I.R.A., 1916-1970", by J. Bowyer Bell; London: Sphere Books, 1972 -- I had to lookit up too, canna find my copy. Apparently there was an update making it 1916-1979, published 1989 by Poolbeg Press, Dublin. / But as I *recall* (?), the 1916-1970 study was difficult to slog through; dry, not-very-well-written, & biased (pro), not neutral. Folks correct me if I'm wrong on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,PookaSon
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:48 AM

The Pooka's son here, with a new spin on an old tune... a little something I thought up while riding the bus this afternoon in Los Angeles, thinking about the latest depressing turn of events over in the six counties...

Just when peace was in motion
And hopes filled to the brim
Old enmities spoiled everything
And turned the outlook grim
Now Tony's hoisted the Union Jack
For the boys have gone too far
Let's say, "To hell with I.R.A.!
Give Johnson back his car."

Not too uplifting, I know. Let's just hope it's not the last verse!

(Don't get me wrong; I'm no Orangeman. But to the extent that I can claim any sort of opinion on a matter which, frankly, I haven't been following recently as closely as I should, I'm with Dad... uhh, I mean, Pooka... the Republicans are being DUMB!)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:57 AM

blar, blar, blar, why do people like to posting to threads like thid, soon there will be a big argument and every body will fall out and get fed up, always war etc, israel , afganistan , ire land, there is big problums in all them places, and i wish they woulsd sort it out, but there is nothing any of of us here can do anything about it anyway , people will just start arguing. this id my opimiom.john

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:38 AM

Thank you, Brendan uh I mean PookaSon. Excellent. That's an entirely objective review of course. As a journalism major in the pre-graduation Crunch (O so it's the Senior Slide izzit!! nonono), you are hereby forgiven for not following Norn Iron events 'as closely as you should'. There are other ongoing stories a wee bit more world-shaking. Y'know, 1 or 2 anyway. :) /// Now then: THERE'LL BE NO UPSTAGIN' YER FADDUH AN' INFRINGIN' HIS COPYRIGHT ON TH' RIPPING-OFF & MANGLING OF OULD IRA SONGS FOR TO ADVANCE TH' CAUSE OF PEACE! Yer bigfat GIT!! I'll SUE!!! :) O btw have you decided about Law School yet? Rmmph. Outmaneuvered again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Go for it Pooka and Son!

Here's another verse for "Ould Ireland's Lament", now officially retitled "Whataboutery".

It's now nine thousand and ninety, the Ould Ozone Layer is no more,
We're all being fried to a frazzle, with skin cancer like never before,
And the message that's sent to the nation, as the last drop of water runs out?
Ould Ieland's Ould Incantation, What About! What About! What About!

(Tune, Men of the West, etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:23 PM

Fairly early on in the peace process, there was a bit of stir over Sinn Fein finding the listening devices planted by the British guvmint in their cars, offices, etc.

I don't recall the institutions being suspended over that spying incident "at the highest levels".

This latest slap in the face to the republican community has nothing whatsoever to do with spying. It has very much to do with the British and British leaning politicians being bloody eejits. They don't have the support of the electorate, because they do things like suspending the government, and replacing it with so-called "home rule" (which is nothing more than a euphemism for returning to the pre-GFA British police state).

Sure, this will hurt Sinn Fein in the run up to the spring elections, won't it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 01:27 PM

Question for those in Ireland or England -- can we reasonably expect the parties involved to resolve the issue themselves? From this end, it seems like the parities involved are just too close to the issue. Maybe an outside mediator is really needed here?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 02:41 PM

Who were the crowd running about N.Ireland shooting and blowing the place up? Those republican rascals or just plain murdering terrorists.

If the American government or any government had the ability to bug Bin Ladens car/home whatever and that lead to the prevention of another 911 that would be a good thing. What is any different in bugging one terrorist over another terrorists if it leads to saving lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

It will not be solved by those outside, but it will not be resolved by one side taking the other for fools.

SF seems to be taking the moral high ground, and not accepting any responsibility,some do not want to say the war is over, which makes the recent intelligence gathering more ominous,if the war is not over then the taking of the political route is another tactic in the armalite bomb and ballot box strategy.

Forget the Paisley crowd they are just bigots who wreck every thing that the big man is not in charge of. Trimble is trying and I think deep down he realises there will be an united Ireland but at what cost.

There lies the problem, many unionist feel they will find a united Ireland a cold place, SF/IRA inability to follow the democratic process goes a long way in making that point. How are people going to make a future in a country governed by those who have tried to blast them off the face of the earth? SF supporters can make the same argument.

For those dedicated to a political solution the answer may be straight forward that is rely on the democratic process. But to those who are fighting their neighbours every night the solution lies in eliminating your opponents.

For the loyalist that means preserving the union as they know that a united Ireland would make them a small entity with regards to an all Ireland. And add to that SF as they boast becomes the largest political party in Ireland, it is not too hard to see why some are worried, pay back time so to speak.

In my opinion SF let us down badly, how is anyone going to sell an united Ireland for all when such activities are going on and that many SF members will not say the war is over. The IRA are not disbanded people would be daft to put their faith in these people in the present climate.

The whole lot relies on mutual trust which is few and far between and when it starts to be built some fool comes along and sets us back to square one. By that I mean fools on both sides who have nothing to offer other than more misery.

I see the suspension of the GFA as a disappointment to many unionist MLA's who saw the process for what it is a chance for politics to talk instead of bombs and bullets. It is a coup to others so no wonder there is confusion, perhaps we need people to bang a few heads together.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:29 PM

Re the suspension of the Assembly: the view I got from a middle class unionist recently in Bangor was that "the Protestants" only accepted the GFA very reluctantly and as time passed came to believe that they had been conned, that "all the concessions went to SF", that every time there is a big negotiation SF MUST get something out of it, that a United Ireland is therefore creeping in by degrees. Another thing that really angered him was Protestant applicants to the PSNI being turned down automatically because they were, I can't remember the precise phrase, but it was something like "unfortunately not a member of the correct religious group". While equalisation, or near equalisation, in the police had to come, many Protestants nevertheless still find such bluntness hard to accept. (SF MLAs speaking Irish in the Assembly was a more minor, but nevertheless real, niggle). What do you think, Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:46 PM

The reason I ask is because it seemed like real progress was being made while Clinton was so involved in the process -- not necessarily because Clinton was an expert on the subject, but because outside pressure and encouragement were being brought to bear to get both sides talking. When the Bush administration came into office, they disengaged and now it seems like the peace process is falling apart -- the job wasn't quite finished and it was bad to leave it where it was.

Us Yanks are pretty much fond of both sides, and there are so many families with ties to Great Britain it seems like one of the places where we could be sticking our nose in and doing some genuine good.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM

Tim, I understand the anger some people feel considering the police was mainly composed of people from the wider protestant community. This was due to the short sightedness of the RC church,and nat/rep political leaders who advised people not to join the police force.

Also the most important factor the IRA who threatened the families of those who joined the police, they had to move out of their neighbourhood, seen as supporting the British occupation.

But in fairness I have witnessed some very bitter police men who think the only good fienian is a dead fienian, we all have a long way to go and scars to heal.

The daydream of the Patton report has clearly made a mockery of what is trying to be done here with regards to policing. The person on the street did follow their political leaders a bit blindly but in the hope of ending the killing and mayhem, bit like clutching at straws anything to end it.

You have raised a valid point though there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes and when people complain they are labelled GFA wreckers. The people from all sides did agree to giving the GFA a go and as it has been seen that SF came out on the better side of the deal,who can blame them for taking what concessions they could get. I blame them for letting us down and blame the unionists for letting themselves be fooled.

If Paisley and his cronies had taken the positions they were offered, education and health posts then SF would not have had such as big an influence. Paisley took his toys home and huffed, stood back and watched as those who tried to bring lasting peace struggled, mark of a great statesman. Why do that if your serious about ending the troubles?

As for speaking in Irish it is only SF showing their Irishness, do they do it in the Dail, too busy getting on with the running of their country rather than scoring cheap points. But that does not worry me, their private army does though.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:56 PM

NicoleC, the influence of American leaders is limited to their usefulness and what concessions one side or the other could get from their support. In other words they were being used.

Bush has seen the need for the GFA suspension and in doing so has inadvertently came down on the side of the anti GFA, that will be seen as a great coup by some unionists. But when the American administration helped bring about the GFA they according to some unionists did not know what they were talking about.

We are too twisted in N.I. both sides are too much alike, I say there will be an United Ireland eventually, that's my opinion, would that be shared by the people in the Irish republic? Would you want to take on N.Ireland and all its problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 06:51 PM

Big Tim, good verse!! and, good points. / Likewise, Ireland, very informative and though-provoking narrative. Really. Thanks.

But a question - is the *RUC's* historical role as a Protestant police force and defender of the Orange status quo, really "...due to the short sightedness of the RC church,and nat/rep political leaders who advised people not to join the police force"? Wasn't there a lot more to it than just a papist/republican boycott?? (Or, are you speaking only of NI police since the recent "reforms" began?) I'm ill-informed on these policing issues and would welcome education.

NicoleC - actually I've read that Clinton was, while perhaps not "expert", still personally very knowledgeable of NI matters. / Of course the GFA itself *was* the eventual product of outside mediation, wasn't it? It was Clinton's man George Mitchell who mediated, facilitated, chaired, or whatever, the long & excruciating process that paved the way to the Agreement. A good man. Maybe Dubya should call him up now. HA! Yeah I'm just sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:02 PM

Mitchell has been to Palestine as well. Don't remember at which President's behest... Bush, I think. Unfortunately, his common-sense and balanced recommendations didn't sit too well with extrememists on either side, and so nothing came of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:59 PM

As I understand it (??) the first phase in the "Mitchell Process" is "confidence-building." Developing ways, small & mundane at first, then incrementally more significant, in which each side can actually begin to trust the other to keep its word. A long and winding road, I'm sure. (And a very Rocky one, if to Dublin. Sorry.) But one which the Northern Irish were able, however begrudgingly, to travel. (Hopefully, they will find their way back it from this latest detour.) / But the Palestinians & Israelis: No. Apparently they will trust each other to kill each other whenever possible, and that's all. / There are various analogies and parallels, imperfect but interesting, between the two situations -- even such that when they began flying the Palestinian flag in the nationalist Belfast Falls Road, the unionist Shankill put up the Israeli white & blue in reply. (And I don't think that was necessarily reflective of Paisley's great love for the Jews either. He's just too busy Kicking the Pope to be bothered with Tel Aviv.) / BUT -- the Middle East conundrum is much worse than Ireland's. There is hatred; but then again, there is ***HATRED***. / Arrrgh. Let us pray.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:47 AM

Wel, then. Send in Jimmy!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM

Pooka, in no way will I say that the RUC was totally innocent, like all police forces it had its fair share of undesirable, just as some police were passing on information the same was being done by gards across the border. But this does not excuse the actions I'm just pointing out when the RUC do it its collusion and the whole British government is implicated not so with the gards.

I believe if the Catholic community had been actively encouraged by their community leaders to join the police from the early years of the troubles it would have been harder for people to claim discrimination based on religion. A mixed patrol would have went a long way towards the prevention of such actions,based on the theory that its hard to pick on a community if your partner is someone from there.

It would also have put an end to the police belonging to one community,and would have kept the distance between the police and orange order as it should be. But as it was the protestant community were the only people who came forward and led many protestants to believe that since it was people from their community who put their live's on the line then it is their police force.

I do not believe that the main reason was to preserve the status quo wrt the union. Some joined for financial reasons and we have to realise this fact also, how many 19 yr olds in N.I. could afford Ford Cosworth (??)or any £15000-£20000 cars in the early 1980's. These people were on a small fortune which I think was more an incentive than preserving the union. This is jealously on my behalf but still a valid point.

The fact remains that when the police had to go against the will of either community they bore the brunt of their anger and when it was against the protestant community they paid a very high price. Many police who lived in protestant areas were burnt out and ostracised by the community they were meant to favour.

Although they felt the hatred from both sides, they are the first to be called upon, first to run towards the bomb blast and the last away from the areas when bombs were left. They cannot be all that bad.

Now many Catholic leaders are recommending that they join the PSNI, to be honest I think it is about time more Catholics should take responsibility for protecting the two communities of N.I. and bring about some normality wrt policing and community relations. People would also see that both sides care enough to do something which would lead to some sort of reconciliation.

SF has not joined the policing board, but stands back and condemns rather than getting involved and changing from within. They have put forward ludicrous ideas such as allowing ex IRA members to join the police. I can see why such initiatives are rejected but SF make an issue out of it.

Many of the ties with the orange order and the police are cut as I'm aware police officers are not allowed to be part of such organisations, this is an attempt to make the police acceptable to all. If that is achieved it weakens SF's stand and if there are more Catholic police it weakens the argument a protestant police for a protestant people.

Having said all this I can understand why Catholic people do not join, the primary worry being the safety of their family. As they come from areas which in all probabilities has a republican factor who would see such action as betrayal of their cause. The detrimental consequences of joining the police would be enough to put people off joining. SF did not worry about the police officer who survived a car bomb. Although the man was a Catholic to SF he was still part of the British establishment. They have not sent the massage that those who do join can do without the fear of reprisal. That is a strong message to the catholic community SF is saying join at your own risk and expect no support from us.

One fact though since the implementing of the Patton agreement and the change of name and uniform etc, which SF supported, many have left the force, this has left the PSNI under staffed and stretched to near breaking. This only benefits those who gain from such predicament the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

Thank you again Ireland, very much. I must study this more. You make a lot of sense, soldier.

CB, second the Jimmuh motion. If *anyone* can overcome hatreds, he's yer man. None whatsoever in his heart I believe. / (OK a little Lust maybe, but so what? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:11 PM

Well,well Ireland, at least I agree with some of your statements. #1 -Paisley is an eejit and so are his followers.

I believe also that more catholics should join the police force, I think the reason they have not is because certain terms were agreed to in the GFA but not yet implemented, none the less I think they should join.

I agree that for 30 years the I.R.A. did a lot of damage, but you must remember they were not the only ones, so do not be putting all the blame on republicans.


When the I.R.A. declared a ceasefire they have really tried to stick to it, in the face of many events designed to make them break. e.g. The I.R.A.ceasefire is still intact, there are loyalist paramilitaries not on ceasefire. The U.D.A. especially is infiltrated at every level by the intelligence servises and the Speeecial Branch, they have been supplied wirh arms and with intelligence, and are attacking nationalist interface areas on an almost nightly basis. Just yesterday a family in Larne were ordered to leave just because the wife is a catholic. In Newington Street in North Belfast a hand grenade was thrown from Tiger's Bay and could have killed quite a few children if it had exploded, and this is only what has happened this week alone.


The I.R.A. established contact with De Chastelaine group and facilitated the inspection by international inspectors of a number of arms dumps on three separate occasions.
The I.R.A. have agreed with the International Inspectors to put arms completely and verifiably beyond use
Large quantities of arms were destroyed in October 2001 ans in April 2002.
In spite of all this certain unionists are still not satisfied and have continued to try to wreck the peace process. It is important to understand that sections of the british military and it;s intelligence agencies are still at war. Always seeking to create tensions divisions and spilits within the republican ranks. Over the past few years we have seen some absurd stories froom ill informed and mischievous sources designed solely to provide opponents to the peace process with excuses to attack republicans. Sections of the british establishment and unionists remain fixated on defeating republicans and defending a failed status quo. It has not worked and the peace process for the most part is still holding, the I.R.A. ceasefire is still intact.


They accused the I.R.A. of breaking into the Castlereagh offices and stealing information that was for the most part public information. Why would they do that ?. What have they to gain from that ?.


This latest thing about spying is a height of hypocrisy, Blair condemning republicans for spying,the same week he is trying to eliminate the Iraq president based on information gained by spying.

The car of both Adams and McGuinness had listening devices installed not so long ago, where was all the hoopla about that. Do you really believe the Unionists are not gathering info on the republicans ?. Do you really believe the authorities are not gathering information on republicans as well, if not then how the hell did they find out that the republicans were doing it if they themselves are not involved in the same activity ?.


The oline is that the british and the unionists don't only want the I.R.A. to give up arms, to disband etc, thye want a total surrender and that is not going to happen, especially when loyalist paramilitaries are armed to the teeth and appear to have a free reign.

Ireland, in all honesty, if you were a loyalist/republican paramilary would you even consider giving up your gun when your enemy lives a few streets away and he still has his ?. It's not going to happen.


What may happen is that moderate catholics will realize that no matter what they do it will never be enough for the unionists and instead of voting for the Alliance party or the S.D.L.P party, they will give their votes to Sinn Fein. In reality this latest endeavour to remove the largest nationalist party from the politics of the six counties could backfire and make Sinn Fein even stronger in the next election./


But I agree - Paisley is a nut case.

Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:24 PM

Well said, Jimmy. I have purposely avoided posting, waiting for someone like yerself to say what must be said. One of the most troubling aspects of the coverage of the North of Ireland has been the fact that the Unionists continually make the arguement that the IRA must disarm, as if they were the only armed contingent. It implies that the only people in danger of having a violent act committed on them are the Orange/Loyalist/Unionist folks. The simple fact is that virtually every act of violence that has endangered the peace process has come from the paramilitaries that are aligned with and supported by the Unionists and by extension, the British Intelligence (?) community. This whole bit about the spying by the IRA is a red herring. Another of the "tactics of perception" that are being used in the media is to never mention Sinn Fein without mentioning IRA. Yet one almost never sees a mention of the Orange/Protestant/Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries concurrently with the various parties on that side of the divide. The tactic is called obfuscation. There is a stategy at work that seeks to say something so often that it becomes so. That way the IRA can be blamed, when they have actually made more attempts to make this work than the others.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: weerover
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM

I don't see anyone here saying what to me is fairly obvious. Although there are vast numbers on both (or however many) sides who sincerely believe that theirs is the only tenable position, there are also those who are doing very nicely out of the situation (including financially) and who therefore have a vested interest in prolonging it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:07 PM

Since this thread, and this world, imho could use a little anarchic humor in these dark days (as opposed to all the anarchic *actions* bringing the darkness on), I share the following from "The Onion" – forwarded to me by my darling PookaSon from the salt-mines of academe (LOL!) in far Califor-nye-ay. / The superfluous whack-fol-the-diddles following the Onion news bulletin are, of course, mine own.
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Defense Department Typo Results In U.S. Attack On Ira

ARLINGTON, VA — The U.S. Defense Department apologized to Skokie, IL,
dentist Ira Nussbaum Tuesday following a bombing campaign aimed at
removing the 37-year-old from power.

"Apparently, the intelligence source who drafted the attack plan against Iraq failed to strike the 'Q' key hard enough," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said. "The 'Q' was always a little stubborn on that keyboard. Sorry."

This marks the first military action taken against Nussbaum since a malfunctioning shift key prompted Ulster Unionists to detonate his Ford Taurus in 1998.

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"Tell her how the I-r-a
Had to run like hell, oy veh!.."
--from "Come Out Ye Blackened Hams", official song of the Sein-Finn Multidenominational Party; recorded by The Wolfblitzers on their album "Hebron, Baghdad, Pork or Donegal"

>> OK. Hope yez liked it. Now, back to the serious discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

Jimmy, the IRA ceasefire has been breached it is a well accepted fact,and all the rhetoric will not change that. So we get into the whataboutery, if you read my posts you will find I have no time for any terrorist.

You make wild accusations about the special branch, why would anyone want to go back to pre GFA and live under the constant threat of terrorism. Police having to keep up their personal security routines etc, no one wants to live like that again. SF/IRA need a reason for their existence what better way than to make wild claims and put it across they are here to protect their community. Why have people been thrown out off Ireland and cannot come back for fear of their life, who enforces that the IRA. Indefensible and be we get whataboutery yes the loyalist crowd do it too, and that does not make it right. It just enforces that terrorists are parasites on their communities.

Who shot the person in Belfast (2000) when a dispute arose within the republican circles, the IRA are blamed while you say they were on ceasefire.

The common factor here is the use of terrorism, these people are preying on their own community and have done so since 1969, what has happened to the people who were shot as informers and ask who was the person in command of the IRA at that time. Did they have the legal right to take a mother from her children murder her and dispose of her body with impunity.

Terrorists take their lead from the fools who support them and with your posting above I draw the conclusion that you and Mick support the taking away and murdering of mothers, sons, daughters and fathers, I certainly do not that is why I call all terrorists scum.

We do not know how many arms were put beyond use, the IRA could destroy all the lee enfields they have but that is no use if they bring in armalites through the back door. And yes the other crowd is at it too still does not make it right. Many unionists did respond well to the destroying of weapons but that's a positive point best left out to make a spurious argument.

The Castlereagh break in was not as trivial as you suggest, one paper today reports that £30 million was spent rehousing the police officers whose details were on that list. So it was seen as a considerable threat and acted upon. £30 million that could have been used elsewhere.

You are glossing over the fact that Adams and his ilk were in the IRA and any intelligence gathered from the devices that led to saving lives is well worth it. Or are you suggesting Adams knows nothing considering his illustrious past as a commander in Belfast. The lives saved would be from both communities. And you complain about that what is your problem in trying to save lives, you seem happy enough with the IRA gathering intelligence to take lives and terrorise people.

Remember Omagh carried out by a break away group of the IRA and to break away you have to be part of it in the first place. Would you complain if the bugging devices led to foiling that example of republicans protecting their community?

The British do not want a total capitulation of the IRA or they would not have entered into the GFA and ignored the complaints of unionist about the IRA. What is being asked of SF/IRA is for them to stick to the spirit of the agreement and having the details of all the members of the prison service is not going to be used as a Christmas card list now is it.

I take your point on handing over weapons and so does the British government I suspect, but only on the condition that preparations are not made for them to be used. The gathering of intelligence suggest that the weapons will be used if only as a method to threaten or terrorise people. No one needs weapons who are committed to a democratic process, no one needs to know the details of the security forces if they are committed to a democratic process, to have such items suggests they are not.

Your prediction on the actions of the moderate catholic in my opinion is way off, many are prepared to let democracy work and a surprise to me is some do not want a united Ireland they would loose too much. Others do not want to be under the influence of the Catholic Church and have turned away from that and republican cause. I really get my eyes opened when I talk to university students who think for themselves. But to counter that there are the dyed in the wool republicans who have the rhetoric that others reject.

N.I. is not straight forward those who you think would support whatever because of their religion or back ground do not always adhere to the stereo type. Some students from the republic do not want any thing to do with N.I. too much hassle, some think they do not know when they are well off, with respect to many social issues. So the threat that all Catholics will vote SF is an empty one.

Lets not forget that SF is not wanted in any form in the republic when they have a private army, but you seem to ignore that fact, it proves that SF/IRA are not as popular as they think among right thinking people.

You will not get me to defend any terrorist should they be from the orange or the green, they and their supporters are doing nothing but keeping Ireland in turmoil.

The police needs support from both communities, catholic members policing their areas and protestant their areas is not the way to go,they need to be accepted by all, it will be one step closer to getting to a normal society.

The most important message I get from many SF members is their refusal to say the war is over, which make their retaining arms a worry. The fact that SF does not ask people to come forward to support the police with information is another concern are they afraid of reprisals or seen as a threat from their former comrades in arms. But saying all that Adams has my respect he is trying and I do recognise that he is walking a tight rope between keeping the radicals happy and trying to keep the unionists happy too.

Attack the orange order, loyalist, unionists all you want I have no time for them, what I do have time for is those who look at the situation honestly and do not get involved in the old rhetoric that is employed to keep the mess in N.I. going.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:11 PM

"Just yesterday a family in Larne were ordered to leave just because the wife is a catholic. In Newington Street in North Belfast a hand grenade was thrown from Tiger's Bay and could have killed quite a few children if it had exploded, and this is only what has happened this week alone."

The lady was on the news she believes it is because her boyfriend is protestant, and will not give in to any terrorists, brave woman in my opinion.

No defence for the hand grenade, no side should have them.

What I will say though many want people to understand the SF situation but will not do the same for unionist politicians, even those who do not want the loyalist groups to be there or armed. Many have called for the various groups to disarm a point that is left out, why do that to make your argument JimmyC? How are people going to move forward when they play down the efforts of others.

Trimble and Durkin are not ex terrorists, Durkin cannot be considered as having the army or police as a private army like the IRA. To make such assertions is just as spurious as saying the army and police are Trimble's private army.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM

The lady in the news said it was because she was a catholic and her boyfriend was a protestant, they are living in a loyalist estate, so who do you think tried to get them out ?. I do not agree with any terrorist activity either, but don't expect one side to bear the blunt of the blame and don't go harping on about the catholic church running the place and all that bullshit, that may have happened years ago in the republic , it is not the case today, do you really believe that "TERRORISTS" are going to be swayed by something a bishop or priests tells them ?. My argument is very precise, that is, that many of the unionists never wanted power sharing or the GFA in the first place and they have been doing their best to wreck it since day one. Durkin and Trimble are not ex-terrorists, well where is the evidence that Adams is, and I don't mean innuendos, I mean real proof. It does not exist otherwise Trimble would have been able to show it. Just because someone is a member of Sinn Fein does not mean he was ever even a member of the I.R.A. let alone been a terrorist. Martin mcGuinness may have been member of the I.R.A. but people have the right to defend themselves and the people in Derry needed defending, the bloody police weren't going to do it, neither were the army so what were they to do,   stay home and keep quiet like they had done for nearly 50 years ?.
The U.D.A., the U.V.F and other groups are just as private , and they would be used by Paisley, Trimble and others except that the I.R.A. are there to oppose them. I believe that the I.R.A. cannot survive without the support of a large number of the nationalist community and by the same token neither can the loyalists groups, so enough of the private army garbage, I have said it before and I will say it again, if it had not been for the actions(or inaction) of the police, the british army coupled with the threat from loyalists squads there would have been no need for the I.R.A. in the first place. This all started with a march by students demanding civil rights and we know by the newsreels exactly how the police responded.
Calling for loyalists groups to disarm is not the same as demanding the nationalists groups disarm. Time is on the side of the nationalists, all they have to do is keep the peace and they will be the majority very soon, so why would they want to upset the applecart. ?.
This is all a case of politicians stirring the pot for their own polital agendas, they may as well get it into their heads that the old status and institutions of the state will never return. Those days are dead and gone,. They are not doing the loyalist community any favours by not peacefully working towards the new Ireland no matter what form it will take, whether as part of a united Ireland or as a separate democratically run state. They are leaving a legacy of bitterness and hatred and they should be ashamed of themselves. Bloody hypocrites , all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:34 PM

Of course the war is over, whatever the metaphysical tangles some politicians might have about actually saying that. For the thirty years of the Troubles you had a similar kind of hang-up with another set of politicians who would always deny that what was happening was a war, and that didn't help either.

But the end of a war doesn't rule out the possibility of renewed fighting. If, God Forbid, the imperfect peace breaks own, and things descend into fighting again, maybe they'll call it a continuation of the old war, or maybe they'll call it a new war. It doesn't seem too important.

If the assumption is that a disarmed and disbanded IRA would mean that there could be no possibility of a new war, that's not how it works. The Official IRA, as it became called, had disarmed and effectively disbanded, and that didn't stop the Provos emerging. I think it could well be argued that the continued existence of the existing IRA provides some safeguard against the same kind of thing happening with the Real IRA or whatever, for example by keeping control of people who might make that possible.

I'm not arguing that because I haven't got the facts. I mention it as an example of the kind of complexity that can lie below the surface. The important thing isn't to win arguments and chalk up symbolic victories, its to keep the peace as well as it can be kept, in the hope that the longer it can be kept the better the stronger it will become. The politics above that is largely a matter of treading water.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:38 PM

Ireland, I don't know what your personal Irish agenda is here at Mudcat, but upon your reviewing your contributions here since 06 Oct, I believe you've got one.

The war may or may not be over. No Protestant paramilitaries have put one single weapon beyond use. Not one. The British security forces still control certain so-called "no go" areas, and the British government has just suspended the democratic institutions for the 4th time.

Very little of the above can actually be attributed to the IRA, much less Sinn Fein, but that doesn't stop the British/Irish/American propaganda machines from churning out bullshit reports of how the latest "crisis" in in the peace process is due to IRA intransignece. That has ALWAYS been the reason given for caving in to the Unionists' threats to withdraw from the so-called "democratic institutions".

What the hell is democratic about suspending the governing institutions in what is supposed to be a democratic process here? What is so democratic about not allowing the electorate to be ruled by the people they voted to have rule them?

The GFA is a sham. Four times Trimble has demanded the Brits "do something" and four times the GFA has been thrown out the window by the British government. Not exactly what one could call "confidence building" for anyone except the Unionists.

What we are seeing is that the Unionists and their British government allies never had any intention of allowing democratic reforms to take hold through the political process or by any other peaceful means. The Unionists were never supposed to get something out of the democratic reforms needed to create a just and equitable society in Northern Ireland--they were supposed to give up power to achieve that goal.

Which proves the point that many in the republican community have been saying all along--the Unionists are not interested in power sharing, and their claim that they were interested parties to the GFA has been a total sham. They want to keep power for themselves, as well as keep the republican and nationalist communities on their knees. THAT is what the British government has done with this suspension of the GFA institutions. They can't just keep breaking the fragile trust with the republican and nationalist communities with impunity either.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:54 PM

Adams has admitted his role in the IRA did you happen to miss it JimmyC. Take the rosy glasses of and see terrorism for what it is, how were the IRA protecting people when they take them away from their families murder them and leave the children orphans, but we'll skip over that to keep the IRA in the role of the romantic defender.

Your arguments are based on unfounded republican rhetoric which is far from precise. Precise is saying McGuiness was the commander of the IRA in Derry it took him long enough to admit it but he did no maybe there.

The marches you refer to had catholic and protestants leaving that fact out gives more strength to your misleading argument why do that? Not being precise here are you.

My issue with the Catholic church is not in the context you choose to read into my posts, the church and leaders of the catholic community actively discouraged people from joining the police coupled with the threat from the IRA it took a brave catholic to join. This is a recognised fact, we would have had the police force we now need if it was not for such interventions, something we all have to live with. Patton's recommendation's come along and all of a sudden it a good idea.

How many young Catholics have turned away from the church, they do not want to know, that is not an attack on the church it is stating a fact. The church admits it has that problem.

How many times do you have to be told a terrorist is a terrorist orange or green I have no time for them or anyone who supports them because in doing so they agree with their actions, it is that which gives them the mandate to do what they do.

You give the reason that someone had to defend their community, the IRA opened the door to the UDA and set the ball running proving two wrongs do not make a right. No matter how passionate your arguments are they still are based on the flaw that terrorists have place in the world they simply do not.

Why not address the issue that the leader of the country they want to be united with has no time for SF/IRA cannot blame the British here.

I will say this we all went down the wrong road, we need to go forward and improve on our mistakes but to do that everyone has to admit their failings. That is something many from both sides will not do they try to justify themselves with the whataboutery arguments.

But you have to recognise the fact that all rep/nat terrorists no matter who they are stem from the IRA. CIRA RIRA as I said they have to be part off it to break away from it. If the Omagh bomb had brought about a united Ireland it would have done nat/rep a favour so just as you assert the loyalist crowd are one so are the various rep/nat terrorist one as they have the same aim.

To expand on that if the IRA passed on the information they stole to the RIRA which resulted in deaths of security force members would the IRA admit their involvement or say nothing to do with us. You will never convince me that there are no connections between the two and never get me to give the IRA the benefit of doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:09 PM

You know what Ireland--Nelson Mandela was once a terrorist too. To suggest that Adams and McGuiness' IRA membership should preclude their participation in a post-war democracy is sheer idiocy. They have every right to be where they are, because they have proved for the better part of the past decade that they are not shooting at or blowing up anyone. They are working through the democratic political process, and have been for many years.

Spying is something both sides are going to continue doing until there is no more reason for the sides to mistrust one another. That hasn't happened, and it won't happen until and unless the British government forces the Unionists to walk out, and continues the institutions without them. They've got to do it, and do it now, or all the work of the past decade will be for naught, just as happened in between the Palestinians and Israelis, when Israel refused to give up power and control over the West Bank and Gaza as they agreed to do.

This Britspeak of "once a terrorist, always a terrorist" is bullshit, and incredibly dangerous brinkmanship in this day and age. There is no telling now how much damage the Unionists and the British government has now done to the peace process. But sitting on the republican/nationalist side of the fence as I am, I really don't see how they are going to be able to put any of the GFA back together any time soon. The republican and nationalist youth are totally cynical about the political "democratic" process now. And these are young people who didn't come of age during the violence, who are clearly questioning why the republican leadership ever bothered to try negotiating a peace settlement with the Brits to begin with. What incentive have they got for carrying the peace torch?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:41 PM

So what do they do Guest go down the terrorist route there are as many loyalists of the same opinion de we let them fight it out or admit that terrorism is not the answer. The threat of do what we want or we'll go back to violence makes my case terrorists are terrorist brit speak or not.

SF needs to prove that is not the way and do what the Irish politicians want, get rid of the private army. Or will they be used in the event of a united Ireland when SF do not get their way. Or maybe bring in the republican national youth you threaten N.I with.

You have not paid much attention to what I have posted if you come to the conclusion that I advocate this. " To suggest that Adams and McGuiness' IRA membership should preclude their participation in a post-war democracy is sheer idiocy"

I see it has led to jump to the old prejudices which has led to your inaccurate conclusions. I for one am in favour of a united Ireland but not at any cost. I have no time for terrorists or those who support them or excuse their existence. Mandella condemned his terrorist past cut off all ties to that past and recognised that path was wrong.

Your defending spying is way off the mark,you know my views on that if you have read my posts.

Your parallels with the Israeli and Palestinian has one flaw, SF got what they wanted, they got into government, they were doing good, but they slipped up. As you say Israel did not give back the Gazza and West bank, what you do not mention is the use of terrorists which has not improved the situation it has inflamed it. This shows terrorism does not work on any level as people will dig their heels in which results in going nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:14 PM

Since nothing else has worked, there is one last desperate measure that has yet to be tried.

Import every radical Islmao fascist Al-Qida terrorist we can lay our hands on - to Ireland.

Uniting against a group that has taken religious vows to kill you can make fox hole friends in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:03 PM

Well, so much for the moment of comic relief (see far above). Oh well, I *did* say 'Now back to the serious business.'

Donuel, not a bad idea there. :) Pretty good. I *ALMOST* wish it could be implemented. Indeed the Common Enemy can unite erstwhile foes: foxhole friends, as you say. (From the movie "Oh What A Lovely War", circa 1968: "Who's that singin'?" "Aaah some Welsh bastard over in the next trench.") But, first we'll have to convince Yomama Osama (he's alive, y'know) that Norn Iron is important enough to attack. Thus far he seems to be rather more fixated on us over here in Far Americay. (To include our extended Empire of course.)

GUEST, you have strong opinions & knowledge and experience to back them. Since you been examining his past posts, why don't you take a leaf from Ireland's book, and join up? Nonono, I don't mean with the British Army ("Too ra loo ra loo ra loo, they're lookin' for monkeys up at the zoo...":). I mean, the Mudcat. Give yerself a name for us, as Ireland did. / You could be Bold Fenian Man. Just a thought.

"May the Lord have mercy upon Belfast."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:54 AM

Considering one side fly the flag of Israel and the other the Palestinian flag Donuel, sending in every radical Islmao fascist Al-Qida terrorist we can lay our hands on, would only add to the divide.

Nice try though. And like Bin laden the IRA haven't gone away you know.

It is now one year since the Good Friday Agreement was concluded. Last May it was emphatically endorsed by the people, North and South, and as such it now represents their democratic will.

This somehow does not uphold the assertions made that unionists did not want the GFA to work.

Try this link it may put the unionist views into some perspective and show that the problems of the GFA lie with both sides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/309812.stm

The unionists have been waiting since 1999 for the disbandment of the IRA here is some of the declaration :

Numerous prisoners, in both jurisdictions, have benefited from mechanisms providing for their accelerated release.

Against this background there is agreement among all parties that decommissioning is not a precondition but is an obligation deriving from their commitment in the Agreement, and that it should take place within the time-scale envisaged in the Agreement, and through the efforts of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning.

Sinn Fein have acknowledged these obligations but are unable to indicate the time scale on which decommissioning will begin. They do not regard the Agreement as imposing any requirement to make a start before the establishment of the new institutions. The UUP do not wish to move to the establishment of the new institutions without some evident progress with decommissioning.

The lack of urgency by SF to get the IRA to disband as per obligation above led to the suspension of the GFA, as SF got many concessions from the GFA it is within reason that SF/IRA gave some themselves.

Trimble did acknowledge the decomissioning of weapons as a good response which gave credence to the GFA and kept the ant-GFA unionist at bay. In other words he wanted the GFA to work and still does.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:56 AM

Pooka I did appreciate the comic relief, I'm sorry I should have aknowledged it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 01:37 AM

When I was younger I used to believe that religious fanatics were so because they were, in fact, not completely convinced that what they professed to believe was true.

Then I graduated to thinking that belief is the haven of those who simply can't KNOW.

Now I figure they're just using religion to further crass ends, like putting money in their pockets, or getting their followers to buy them a 30 room mansion.

I have my doubts about the existance of God now, because if there IS a God, human beings deserve to be eradicated from His universe, and He ain't doing it. Maybe later!?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM

Mandela has never denounced his past, or his associations with the ANC. In fact, he has done the exact opposite--quite stubbornly.

Mandela also infuriated many Irish and British citizens when he, on a visit to Ireland, not only refused to denounce the IRA, but referred to them as some of the very few Europeans who were allies of the ANC and stood fast by the ANC while they fought their war against apartheid and the Afrikaaner government.

Ireland, your supposed rational arguments might work if only for one thing--the British government is still an occupying force in Ireland, and home rule/unionist rule has always been corrupt, repressive, and unjust.

Now, it is plain that you will continue to view the war in Ireland as simple, isolated acts of terrorism. That is very convenient for those who don't wish to acknowledge that no country on this planet has managed to rid themselves of a colonial occupying force without the use of warfare--what you call "terrorist violence", without making any acknowledgement whatsoever of the violence perpetrated by the state militias/security forces in places like Ireland and the West Bank, and as it was once perpetrated by the state in South Africa. There is nothing romantic about that reality. Not one bloody romantic thing.

It is the nationalist and republican communities that now stand to lose everything they gained, not the unionists. The 6 counties were functioning as well as any other democratic European state up until the suspension of the instititutions. Everyone knows full well that the IRA isn't interfering with the functioning of the institutions, and that the unionists are not only interferring, but trying to destroy them.

So which is the greater threat to a fragile peace? Guns which have remained silent for the better part of eight years, or politicians trying to nuke the peace process to protect their own turf and power?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:55 AM

Ireland, you posted that
"It is now one year since the Good Friday Agreement was concluded. Last May it was emphatically endorsed by the people, North and South, and as such it now represents their democratic will."
Part of the problem is that the agreement was signed in good faith, but there are parts of it yet to be implemented, especially in Police Reform, Demilitarization etc. Implement the full agreement first and then Sinn Fein will have nothing to complain about. The major stumbling block to I.R.A. disbanding is the existence of loyalists groups such as the U.D.A./ U.F.F/ U.V.F etc. Unionist politicians such as Trimble, Paisley and their ilk are all very vocal to condemn violence but not one of them has singled out and actually named loyalist groups, it's all been motherhood statements, such as " violence has no part in our society and I call on Sinn Fein/I.R.A. to disarm and disband etc". Trimble knows full well that if he were to say openly " I call on the I.R.A. the U.D.A, the U.V.F. etc to disband, he would not be reelected. Remember he came up through the unionist ranks as a member of the Vanguard movement, hard line unionists,, the leopard does not change his spots. Paisley we know about, he is so anti-cathoic that he is comical.
For the good of the six counties let the GFA be FULLY IMPLEMENTED and then let unionists, nationalists, british government etc demand the disbanding and disarming of ALL groups. It's not going to work by singleing out just one. Let all parts of the GFA be implemented and then they will be in a position to challenge those who still hold back. Try working together with Sinn Fein and then progress can be made. It is very clear that many unionists were against power sharing from the start and heve done nothing but try to wreck the agreement since the first day it was signed.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Well said jimmy and Guest above. You know its laughable to read the musings of all the pseudo intellects around here. Clapping each other on the back for another fine observation on the goings on in the wee six counties of Ireland. Oh they're in such a mess, sure they can't help themselves you know and we're so superior sitting here at our safe distance with all the solutions (no doubt) to all the problems. Fuck off! Let me tell you something Pookie you think we're in a mess. Well if your president has his way you ain't seen mess. So brother try looking for the plank in your own eye. Oh and Ireland, the voice of reason, the experienced soldier. Were you a Brittish soldier by any chance? If so, how could you have an objective view? Your job was to occupy and maintain the Status Quo. A protestant parliament for a protestant people, isn't that the way it went Ireland? So most of the views and observations expressed here are based on what exactly. Hearsay, or that paragon of truth the good old Brittish media. Did any of you live in Ballymurphy or Ardoyne? How about Tiger Bay? Were you there Ireland. When the Brits allowed gangs of loyalists and the RUC to burn catholics out of their homes. Have any of you lived in N.Ireland? Do any of you know what its like to be a second class citizen in your own country. No I don't think so. Bottom line is the current crop of Unionists don't want, never wanted power sharing. Its been one thing after another to disrupt the process sice day one. Now they want the IRA to disband. Right that would take us back to 1969.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:16 AM

Ireland - I forgot about this part.

"The marches you refer to had catholic and protestants leaving that fact out gives more strength to your misleading argument why do that? Not being precise here are you."


if you read my post correcetly you will notice that I said students , (not catholic students - just students). My point was how the police responded that day. They attacked with batons, all captured on camera. Also you failed to mention that there were gangs of loyalists waiting in ambush for the marchers also, and the police did nothing to disperse them. These types of things have been happening for years and still happen today. Example, last May while home in North Belfast, I was coming along the Limestone road, after a nice pint in a pub on the corner of Antrim Road and Limestone road. I was the only person around, all of a sudden a gang of about thirty youth came out from the Tiger Bay area , all throwing bottles, stones etc into the catholic Newington area. In a short time catholics were out and the 2 parties faced off, shouting abuse and throwing stones. The police came and formed a line between them but they all faced the cathoics, with batons drawn and with anti-riot gas at the ready. They did not have to use it, but the point is they faced the catholics who did not start the trouble, in the meantime the loyalist continued to throw missiles over the heads of the police and not one policeman turned around to face them. I could not believe it, I was there and witnessed this myself. It is happening every night there is any trouble, I know catholics are the instigators at times, but the police by their action demonstrate time and time again that many of their members are not impartial.
Implement the GFA in FULL and then Sinn Fein will have nothing to complain about, any objections by unionists to the full implementation will only prove that many of them are against it come what may.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

Jimmy C, and Den, I also live here and nothing has changed, I was told by a Protestant business man that "you Catholics don`t come close when it comes to bigotry, it is bred in the young Orangemen from birth".
After the Holy Cross School episode, {which was never once condemned by Paisley} how can "Ireland" and his side-kick Tim make out a case for the Unionists, and Pooka any country that elects the likes of Reagan and Bush should save their meanderings for the nuts in the good old US. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:21 PM

Remember he came up through the unionist ranks as a member of the Vanguard movement, hard line unionists,, the leopard does not change his spots.

You have said it all JimmyC, what makes you think SF is any different.

"This all started with a march by students demanding civil rights and we know by the newsreels exactly how the police responded." I saw no need to elaborate on this as you pointed out we all know what happened.

There is no excuse or defence for what happened to you, if you think that as a "unionist" I intrinsically support the action of that scum your wrong. They like all terrorists have nothing to offer except pain and division, we do not need them. I was put in a wheelchair by the actions of the IRA, but I still recognise that SF has a lot to offer, was showing the way in many respects and had my support,I am in favour of a united Ireland,but not at any cost especially if that entails the gathering of intelligence by any terrorist group.

You have to recognise that unionists see the IRA as a threat and you cannot dismiss their fears as wanting to wreck the GFA, they did sign up to it no getting away from that fact. The rhetoric that unionists did not want the GFA in the first place does nothing but bolster the anti agreement people, it is also a crass way of diverting the blame from those who were gathering intelligence. Bit like saying I don't know what they are yapping about they did not want the agreement in the first place.

If SF cannot admit that the actions were wrong what are they going to be like if they get real political power, arrogance springs to mind, and we all know that it was the arrogance of the old unionist crowd the brought about the troubles in the first place.

Do you have any concern for the security force members whose details were in the hands of terrorist simple yes or no would suffice.

Your under the impression that by condemning the short sightedness of those in the past who advised people not to be part of policing their community that I put the blame on Catholics, I do not never will and do not condone those who do. We all have to take our fair share of the blame, those who got actively involved in the past and those who sat on their hands doing nothing. The so called silent majority who benefited from others efforts to bring about peace.

My posts are borne out of frustration and disappointment, I had a lot of faith in SF and still believe they have much to offer. If the IRA were to stand down, with the understanding it has the right to take up arms if the loyalist terrorist take advantage of their absence then the onus of the peace process would be squarely on the loyalist.

Simply if there is no IRA why should there be any loyalist equivalent they feed of each other, some one has to break the cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 04:33 PM

Ard, were do you get the idea that I am making a case for the unionist, you are displaying the same prejudices that you condemn in others. What are you saying the rep/nat community has no examples of such inbred bigotry, your the example there is. I may be seen as a unionist that does not mean I'm in the OO.

Get stuck into the orange men all you want I have no time for them same for Paisley and any other crowd who display prejudice and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:13 PM

Put in a wheelchair by the IRA?

God, the level some people will stoop to win an argument on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM

And Ireland also says:

"Do you have any concern for the security force members whose details were in the hands of terrorist simple yes or no would suffice."

My answer is no, I have no more concern for a member of the security forces than anyone else involved on any side. A human life is a human life, and the life a security forces member is no more sacred than Gerry Adams' life.

Ireland also gave us this sorry, lame ass Britspeak propagandist line too:

"You have to recognise that unionists see the IRA as a threat..."

I think that fact is well recognized, but it is no reason to wreck the peace process over...

And then Ireland continued on with this:

"...and you cannot dismiss their fears as wanting to wreck the GFA..."

Oh yes we can, and have. And will continue to do, because we aren't about to let them wreck the only chance at peace Ireland has had in a hundred years.

The IRA is doing nothing wrong by spying on the Brits and the Unionists. It is still a case of security for the republican and nationalist communities, just as it is for the securocrats in Ireland and Britain to be spying on them as well. It is idiotic to think that the IRA is going to stop when there has been no progress on demilitarization from anyone but themselves. Absolutely idiotic, and people everywhere else in the world know it too, once you point out the illogic and irrationality of the British and Unionist propagandists.

I trust Sinn Fein, once entrusted with true political power, will become every bit as arrogant and mad as any other politicians anywhere in the world. But it doesn't mean they will retaliate in vengeance mode against the unionist and loyalist communities. Those days are, if we all do the job right this time, long behind us.