True musicians

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 01:16 PM

Gosh Jed, thanks! Same to ya! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM

Its been interesting though 53, so the game was worth the candle.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:30 AM

I was wrong, true musicians come in all different groups.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:18 AM

Just for the record, 53, I played in a band, orchestra, or solo for twenty five of the last thirty five years--there have been stretches of up to five years when music(performing, writing, and teaching) was my only work(whether I was actually surviving is debatable)--

There area a couple of other, important distinctions I make--

First,between working as a musician and working as an entertainer: as a musician, you show up with your instrument and gear, and read or follow by ear or some bizarre other process, what someone else wants you to play, as an entertainer, you show up with a prepared material, set lists, and everything you need(often including other musicians and singers) to put on a show--

Second, between either of the above, and "village musicians", who would be the folks who, formally or informally, paid or unpaid, are the active bearers of the musical traditions and repertoire for a community--they know all the dances and songs, and know how to play them in the old style,sing them in the old language(if applicable), and are always there, for the weddings, dances, religious festivals, etc--they used to be mostly old-timers from the community, but the can also be outsiders who learned the music because they wanted to, and became an accepted part of the community because they kept the traditions going--

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: banjoman
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM

once played for a North West Moris side ( Banjo ) and left when the following definitions were mooted in my presence:-

1. A drummer is anyone who is not required for a particular dance

2. A musician is anyone who carries a melodeon wether or not they can play it

3. Anyone unable to dance thro' ill health or old age automatically becomes a musician.(usually a drummer if they can weild the syicks with venom)

As for me, I consider myself to be a musician both BBC (Before Basing Clog)and AD (after dep[arting)

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:33 AM

Just for the record, I wasn't annoyed by Bob's post, just confused as to his meaning and intention. I didn't know whether he wanted to start a debate on what a "true musician" (which seems to have happened anyway), or whether he was asking something more specific - the nub of which I couldn't ascertain from his post. I wasn't trying to nitpick or bully, just trying to find out what he wanted to know and point out the ambiguity of his post and the assumptions he was making.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:31 AM

Ok - by that definition I am a true musician vocally (though still a work in progress).
I study classical singing, sing & play folk & blues at pub sessions, know only a smattering of notation theory, and work 4/5 week at a fairly good job in order to have the 5th day to hone my tools (vocal).
Music is not where I earn my money - but its where my heart soul passion & focus is.

Kris

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: GUEST,Rik Wolters
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM

I'd like to think I'm a 'TRUE' musician, but then I still have no idea what it means.

Well, I'm not a 'FALSE' musician anyway!

I post on here too!

-Rik-

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:02 PM

Hi Bob -- don't let the bullies get you down. I understand your question, and my answer is:

I have a day job which pays my bills. And I play music - you might say semi-professionally - which balances my chi and salvages my sanity. I play music because I love to play music; I have a band which I've been able to keep going for almost 12 years (I'm slightly proud of that). We play locally for clubs, pubs, festivals and parties, averaging about 2 gigs per month these days. We have 2 CDs which I paid for (and have yet to recover the cost of) and are working up to a third.

I thought about going professional years ago and decided against it, mainly because I feared that if I made music my main job it would become just that: a J.O.B, and the joy and fun would go out of it. That's not a chance I want to take.

In a way, maybe that makes me a MORE True Musician than someone who plays what he's hired to play?

Some food for thought here.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:00 PM

(quote)
"How many true musicians are at home in Mudcat?"

Getting back to original meanings , in my world a *true musician* is someone whom demonstrates that they know their instrument of choice the way a true carpenter knows their tools; "buy their works ye shall know them".

Too many here got side-tracked with the term "professional" which was *not* the original question.

To wit: A "true musician" has more than a working familiarity with "craftsmanship " .

This turth will set you free ;-)

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:40 PM

Murray, I agree with you completely. It just doesn't take much to piss some people off. Or maybe folks just need to convince themselves they're superior. Wonder if I should start a thread "How many cruel assholes..." Nah.

Bob would have been better off asking "How many professional musicians," but then others would have been better off trying to understand what he was asking instead of gleefully grabbing the opportunity to do the one-upmanship thing. It didn't work anyway. No wonder this place is so easy to troll - a person doesn't even have to try.

Now me, I've made less than $100 my whole life doing music. One paying gig and transcription of two songs for a website.

Steve, none of the people you listed post here. If you're trying to say they're professionals, I think you're correct, but Bob wanted to know how many Mudcat folks were pros.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:10 PM

By your definition the likes of Britney Spears, The Backstreet Boys, any Snoop Gangsta (insert mammal here), Madonna are true musicians. People like our own Justa Picker (there are several more here that I haven't heard) are not. Some of the finest musicians that I've ever heard hold day jobs. They may lack marketing skills or the body of Faith Hill or Shania Twain.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:29 PM

So is Jed Marum, by all the criteria presented here. Plays music full time, records, and most importantly, he is truly talented.

Mick

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:26 PM

Kim C is a true musician!

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:09 PM

I consider myself to be a true musician. I love to play music, I do play music daily, I recieve small tips as compensation sometimes, and I am not plagued by nagging doubts that I should be supporting myself with music. I would love to do music as my sole profession, and I believe that I some day will... The musical profession isn't exactly an oxymoron, but the enthusiast has an avid and crucial role in the musical world... ttr

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:31 PM

It really sickens me that so many on this thread have chosen to go down the road of semantic nit-picking and barely concealed disparagement.

It is perfectly bloody obvious to me what Bob is asking, he is wondering how many Mudcatters support themselves and their families soley through musical performance.

Perhaps he could have titled the thread differently, but there is no call for the vitriol and bile spewing forth from the vultures above.

Murray

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:19 PM

A mate of mine was a full time musician for a few years then he got a job but still does gigs etc by your definition he was a "true musician" but then lost the status.(How about someone who has retired are they no longer a true musician?).
I do not play an instrument I only sing but I have been paid, I do not think if you asked for a definition of a true singer that many people on this forum would say it was someone who was a professional. If you are trying to provoke a response- congratulations you succeded if you are really interested in what you posted start a thread the way bagpuss sugested. Cllr

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:40 PM

Mark Clark--there are relatively few musicians who make their livings in symphonies, and, outside of of a few major cities few to no musicians making a career of studio work--there are, however, many, many instrumentalists all across the country, who play in club, bar,wedding and dance bands for a living--there are also a fair number of folks(some who frequent this place) that sing, either acompany themselves, either solo or in ensemble, and survive by playing folk clubs, festivals, nursing homes,etc etc--More than you might think drop in here from time to time--

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:48 PM

Bob, You might be looking for some kind of inverse relationship here. In the general population, most "full-time" musicians play in symphony orchestras, movie studios, recording studios, or are members of popular bands. Most are probably dues-paying union members as well.

The good folks who frequent these threads mostly play folk, blues, jazz and bluegrass, genres that are not noted for providing musicians with a living wage. Most of the full-time musicians who actually earn a living playing music—enough to support a family—don't closely follow the kinds of music we discuss here.

Note that these issues are independent of ability. If Itzhak Perlman earned his living from investments, would he cease to be a “true musician?”

      - Mark

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Benjamin
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:42 PM

I'm a music student at a major university! Does that count?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:41 PM

There's an old saying that applies to several professions, & it seems pertinent here, if a bit peripheral--

"At first I did it for my own pleasure, then I started doiing it to please my friends, and finally I got to doing it for money."

Clint Keller

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bert
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:35 PM

Not me, I'm a singer.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:17 PM

I think that Bob's question is a good one--Maybe more tactfully asked as "how many of you are working musicians"? There is a difference between playing what you feel like playing, when and where you feel like playing it(and, in some cases, having a swelled head about it), and putting together a act together that will get and hopefully keep, a bread and butter gigs--

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:51 PM

you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:30 PM

You crack me up Bob, kinda like a Monty Python skit. Do you mean to do that?

Am I half true or half musician? Half-time dayjob, half-time music job (the one which pays better, btw). I listen to the discman for most of my dayjob shift, does that count?

Then the One True God is a paid full-time pro, right?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:25 PM

Thanks, Wes, I needed that today! :-)

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

A true mudcat and a wonderful person ?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM

I'm a musician. I sing and play several instruments. I get paid for this about 30-40 times per year. I have a lousy day job.

What does that make me?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:09 PM

53:

Don't sweat it, Bob. It's just a language thing. You have a talent for under-wording things which gets them going some. No harm, no foul, and you have as much right to ask your questions as the next bloke!

A

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:06 PM

It remains an interesting question. I know a few true musicians, and it seems to me that it has something to do with their whole life revolving around music, though they have to do other things. A related (though maybe different) set of criteria would be people who are truly musical. The same thing is true about artists -- some people are just artists, and other people, though they may paint or whatever, would not say, "I am an artist". The question of when you graduate -- in your own mind, your own terms -- to being able to call yourself a musician or an artist is interesting. I am neither, but occasionally I can see what it would be like to be one -- envy, really. I know that I am a writer, there are criteria that I could defend, ways I have of knowing other people who I would call writers and so on.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Well . . . it did get people thinking. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Joe you might better close this one too, seems that I've made a few people mad at me.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: PeteBoom
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM

Hmmmm... guess I don't qualify anyway - I'm a drummer (who plays, teaches, writes music, writes articles on pipe bands and has an instruction book out, but a drummer) not a musician.

Cheers-

Pete

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM

53 you are something of a genius. When I think of the very ordinary and predictable questions that I ask on Mudcat: and you come up with this inane stream of magnificently incomprehensible non sequitur, non answerable non questions. Youre never going to knock John from Hull from his Mudcat Superstar pedestal. but youre a contender.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: MMario
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:43 PM

According to my B-I-L, it's not "real work" if you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:31 PM

thanks man I will.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:30 PM

53 strikes again !! I love him, he's sometimes like a cuddly version of gargoyle. keep on keeping on 53.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Trevor
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM

So, let me get this right - to be a true musician, in your opinion, you have to be full-time and money-earning. So what are you until you reach that exalted status?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bagpuss
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM

Just may have made for an easier thread to answer if you saked about full time professional musicians instead of assuming we all hold the same definition of "true musicians" as you. Saves confusion.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Trevor
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:55 AM

What Bagpuss said, with knobs on!!

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:52 AM

that is just my way of determing musicians. I'm sure that there are many others out there who sre musicians but have day jobs.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bagpuss
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM

More interesting to me is why you consider full time musicians who make their living from it "true musicians" and why the rest are not.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:48 AM

Full time who make their living from playing music.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Trevor
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:45 AM

And there are probably some earning money who are not true musicians..

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bagpuss
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:39 AM

OK, is that working as in they make their sole living from music, they make some money from performing music, or they just perform in public.

I would certainly argue that case that there are some true musicians that do not earn money from it.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Trevor
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM

Somebody told me once that I was a singer, not a musician. And I can play a 'D' chord on a guitar, mandolin and mandocello. And I'm honest - that's a bit like being true. And I feel at home on the 'cat. Do I count for the purposes of this survey?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

working musicians.

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Bagpuss
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

How many people think that any 2 people can agree a definition of a "true musician"?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:35 AM

too subjective- by whose definition 'true musicians'?

Subject: RE: True musicians
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:32 AM

How many true musicians post on Mudcat?