PEL: What activities to be criminalised?

Subject: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:56 AM

up to now, we know the new PEL will affect live music of all kinds, but what else?

bellringers
morris dancing & mummers
carol singing

will the salvation army brass bands at xmas b banned?

what about when the scouts etc have their marching bands out on remembrance sunday?

more?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:04 AM

Will it be illegal to sing the national anthem without a PEL ?
Will it be legal for the Torie to sing "Jerusalem" at the end of the party conference ? - anyway shouldn't Political Party Conferences be classified as Theatrical Entertainment ?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM

dave,

we discussed perfoming g save q in our sessh if any jobworths tried 2 shut us down- make grand headline in papers: 'patriots banned!!'

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: pavane
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:15 AM

As has been discussed, it apparently all depends on how a 'performer' is defined - and there is NO definition, it is left to the council!

Dancing of any kind, of course
Rhythmic swaying?
Clapping in time?

Fireeaters, magicians, stiltwalkers?
Market traders who gather audiences with patter?
New Zealand's Rugby team (Or does that come under religion?)

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM

I thought I subbed' this once. Apologies if you get multiples...

Marching bands in general. Military bands. Brass bands in concert in the park on a Sunday afternoon (Yes - we still get them occasionaly!) Mime artists on the street (Thanks heavens - only kidding!) Any pavement artists. Civil War re-enactment societies. The Norse Film and Pagent Society. Birds singing in public. The European Christmas markets we are getting in most major cities. The two wonderful violinists that play in our local delicatessen. (Yes - you heard right!) Market traders entertaining us with their patter. Kids skipping songs in School yards. Football fans chants on a Saturday afternoon.

In fact, anything that entertains the public! Being entertained in public without a licence is to become outlawed. If this horrendous act comes into force I am going to display a prominent notice in my front window that I will be playing concertina and singing in my back garden every sunny weekend. All welcome. I will let the council know and would be quite prepared to go to prison. Anyone with me?

Cheers

Dave the unusualy serious Gnome

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:22 AM

no telling jokes in pubs- & DEFINITELY NO LAUGHING!!

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:43 AM

no xmas tug o' war by rival pub teams. thhey usually do it either side of river gowy near chester- try to pull each other into river.


spectator sport? athletics, cross country, fell racing, cyclo-cross?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

Oh - and from another thread - organ grinders.

Mind you, I thought that Organ Grinding, along with Muffin the Mule, was already illegal...

DtG (Back in stupid mode)

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:51 AM

what about buskers & street entertainers?

they already have to have a licence, so if they did their act in a pub without a PEL, would they [& the landlord] be immune from prosecution?

your thoughts please.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: IanC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:56 AM

Mr Happy

Buskers - no ... they'd be caught. Their license only covers busking (i.e. outside) and in a particular area.

:-)

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,Cobble at work.
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 11:34 AM

Remember this and dont vote Labour again, and if you think they are so bloody good look at there record. Stealing money from the low paid to pay for the higher paids brats child allowance. Those that dont intend to work for a living because they are getting their cut of this money also, because they keep breeding more, no need to work. They are walking over the lower paid , over the pensioners and any one else they think that they can get away with it including us the ordinary joe who likes folk music. All that Blair and is cronies want is self glory and everything that they can rake out of the country for themselves. Last example LEFT WING, RIGHT WING Prescott, firemen should'nt strike. He was leading the same type of strikes with the seamen 30 years ago. All they do is tax tax tax, their not capable of fair government.

       Bloody hipocrites Cobble

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:04 PM

How about large public or private displays of fireworks, no noise concerns there.........?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:27 PM

I'm sorry to see you guys are still dealing with all this crap. Every time I think the British government has gotten civilized, they do something to remind me why we had the Revolution. Good luck!

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM

Letters to The Times. 20 December 2002

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,59-519305,00.html

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:27 PM

some years ago one of the local folk clubs had a trip to dublin.

we had a coach from chester to holyhead, then onto the ferry for the crossing.

it was the night boat & once we were all settled down in one of the lounge bars, embarked on an all night music & song session with our instruments & voices.

arriving at dun laoghaire in the early hours, then took a train to dublin. spent all afternoon at session in o'donohues then back to the ferry again. played & sang all nite long again on boat. then holyhead back on coach all totally shattered- but it was a fantastic experience!

this long preamble leading to question: is it only land-based venues subject to PEL? does it include boats? including canal & rivercraft?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 09:40 AM

Exerpt from one of The Time's letters linked to above.

This mess could have been avoided if the Department for Culture, Media and Sport had listened to the warning voices during the Bill's consultation. But since 19 of the 25 organisations on the DCMS consultative panel represent the licensed trade, it is hardly surprising that ministers find themselves in trouble now.

Yours faithfully,
SIMON MILTON,
Westminster City Council,
Victoria Street, SW1E 6QP.
December 18.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 12:10 PM

Well New Year coming up. It is strictly forbidden to sing Auld Lang Syne

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:31 PM

except in caledonia & hibernia [roi]

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria Off Base
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:30 PM

This discussion has been reminding me for a long time of something that I couldn't quite remember . Finally, the penny dropped. It goes something like this:

"When they came to take away the Communists I did not speak, because I was not a Communist.

And when they came to take away the Trade Unionists, I did not speak, because I was not a Trade Unionist.

And when they came to take away the Jews, I did not speak, because I was not a Jew.

And when they came to take me away, there was no-one to speak for me."


It happened a few hundred miles to the east of us, about 70 years ago - anyone remember/

And in 2003, they are coming to take away the Mummers and Morris Dancers .... who will be next on the hit list?

Wassail

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:23 PM

Thanks Mike

It is the point I have been trying to make about the current legislation for some time.

We, and they all know that many councils may try to turn a blind eye to the fact that using the broad definition of 'performers', as they all do, make all mummers plays for example illegal NOW in most if not all of the pubs they take part in.

The fact is that when officers are aware of where and when, they claim public safety makes them prevent these events and the the law does not allow them to act in any other way.

So why why are we prepared to put up with one enforcement anywhere, claiming this traditional activity makes the premises unsafe? Like for example - the Cerne Abbas one, as long as our events are not affected?

If it was just a question of waiting until the new Bill becomes law to address this, this attitude may be a little understandable, but as we know, the new Bill will not address this. The same stupid arguments are just set to continue..........

These events can be enabled now, without a PEL and without any change in the current law, by your local authority. So why is not every local Licensing Authority being besieged now by folkies, demanding that their elected councillors enable these events?

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:40 PM

The elected Chairwoman of West Dorset District Council being interviewed on BBC Radio 4, last week.

You couldn't turn a blind eye to it?

We couldn't turn a blind eye to it.

Do you recognise though, would you have preferred to have turned a blind eye to it?

Err, I'm don't turn a blind eye to any situation that could put the public at risk.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:06 PM

We have the Reduced Shakesphere Company.

How about the reduced Muumming Play?

Two (hard-working) folk doing all the parts, should not be too dificult to arrange? Contacting the local paper to witness this as a piece of publicity to pressure local councillors?

As long as you first have the agreement of the pub licensee, what is there to lose, if the Government plan to make the Bill law in July 2003?

Or is everyone really now prepared to carry on forever under the new legislation, this totally stupid game of pretending not to notice an event, because it makes the law look stupid to consistently enforce it? Inconsistently enforced law is bad law.

For current law and its replacement, if they do not take into account and recognise that traditional activites and others like these are perfectly safe activities when held in pubs, in particular - are stupid.

They make complete fools of those, like to poor lady above, who have to try to justify them.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:51 PM

You can hear today's item on the Bill on BBC Radio 4's 'You and Yours'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,tam the bam frae saltcoats scotland
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM

they should christmas, because I'm here in Australia on holiday, and for the past month all we have been getting on either the radio, televison or the the shopping centres is bloody Christmas music and songs. They even have Carols by candle light, I know that I shouldn't be saying all this because I'm a born again Christian, but it bores the bum off me.

You have to eat food you don't like met people you hate So the best thing to do is Ban Christmas

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: GUEST,tam the bam frae Saaltcoats in Scotland
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM

I know that it might sound a bit harsh, but however, there are some people that I love, my family and friends (If any) but still Ban it please so that we all can get a bit of peace please.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 09:28 PM

I better say that in case I get beating up from my family.

I really love you

Tom

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 09:42 PM

it occured to me when i started this thread that activities OTHER THAN MUSIC!
scarcely anyone has tumbled to the fact that almost all things we do in life could be interpreted by the 'suits' of local authorities as being 'entertaining to members of the public'!

some examples: the friendly darts/pool/bagatelle etc match in your local pub.

school sports days, if the competitors parents attend.


BUT- how about broadcasters, programme makers, recording studios etc?

since everyone in the world is a member of 'the public'- then anyone who interacts with anyone else in any way at all [2 b sure!] would need a PEL!.

So does this interpretation now mean [fom July 2003] that ALL people in England & Wales will need to have a PEL to communicate or have any kind of social intercourse with anybody else?

[answers please in a plain brown wrapper]

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:01 AM

This from Hamish Birchall

The creators of the none in a bar Licensing Bill are stuck in the 18th-century. The Bill is constructed as if 21st century safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation had never happened. The maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison for an unlicensed performance of live music is greater than for a serious breach of health and safety, or noise, legislation (which does not carry a potential custodial sentence). This was one reason why existing PEL legislation was rubbished in Parliament earlier this year as 'archaic and just plain daft.' But, unbelievably, the government has just confirmed that the penalty would continue to apply to carol singers:

"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice." [Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002]

Criminalising live music without a licence was an 18th century innovation. It was a crime and disorder measure, applying only to pubs in Westminster, at a time when there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.

The Bill is a gift to jobsworths. Rest assured local authorities will enforce 'none in a bar' if this Bill is passed without amendment. Licensees, and musicians, will be treated as criminals where there is no safety risk and no noise complaint.

Subject: RE: PEL: What activities to be criminalised?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:08 AM

& how are members of the public placed in jeopardy by singing?