BS: How to End Racism

Subject: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,John
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:18 AM

Recent events remind us that racism remains rampant. Yet we can easily end racism through understanding and education.

            People must realize that God created all humans from one couple, thus making the entire human race one large extended family. God says:" O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve); and from the two of them He spread abroad a multitude of men and women" (Qur'an 4:1).

            Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another. We appreciate a garden having many different flowers because we realize that each adds something to the beauty of the entire arrangement. This is why we do not object to the color of any flower. In a similar way we can see the world as a garden decorated with people of different colors. Let us appreciate that each variety of people contributes something to the spice of life in this world. God says:" O mankind! We have created you male and female , and have made you nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily, (start w/this word). The noblest of you in the sight of Allah*, is the most pious (righteous) of you" (Qur'an 49:13).

            The noblest are the most obedient to God. Such persons may belong to nay race or country. What really matters is their conduct and behavior. The prophet Mohammad* publicly declared that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, and one color is not superior to another. In a day when light-skinned people could not imagine a black person as their leader, the prophet appointed a black person Usaamah, the son of zaid, as a leader.

            As a result of following these teachings, many people have banished racism from their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. You will find people of various colors worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, kind or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special preference is given to anyone based on color or social status. The leader in a mosque is appointed for his learning in the religious sciences, regardless of skin color. There is no such concept as a 'black mosque' or 'white mosque'. Islam removes such destructive concepts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

Five years ago, my Gospel quartet sang at a United Nations Day program. We were pretty new, and I was still feeling a little self-conscious about being the leader of the quartet and being white. The other three guys are black and we do mostly old black gospel stuff. But, I was the spokesman for our group, and when I got up to talk a little about the black community, I commented that it might seem strange for me to be the one speaking for the black community, not being African-American. I said that I am African-American, too. African-Danish-American. If we want to take pride in our heritage, we should remember that if we trace ourselves back far enough, we all came from Africa and are all brothers and sisters. My family just couldn't take the heat in Africa, and moved up to Denmark. I could see the Italians, and the Germans and the other nationalities in the audience looking either uncomfortable, or just downright irritated. I could hear them muttering under their breath, "I ain't no African-Italian-American. It's true, though. People just want to trace their ancestry back as far as they want to trace it back.

If racism was the only problem to resolve, that would be hard enough.
People like to distinguish themselves from others, usually in a negative way. Religious discrimination is certainly as bad as racism.

Do we have a whole year to do this? I hope so..

Jerry

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 10:18 AM

And, John, when one delves into the New Testament, here is Jesus Christ, a man who today would be considered by many to be a man "of color, teaching the word of God. And it's interesting that no recference is made of color in one's relationship with God and the Holy Spirit.

I personally can't see how a man can know God and be a racist, too. It's such a contridiction. God is loving and if we are to obey Him then we must be loving. Not a blind love, mind you, but a love that transcends color.

And to my fellow Follower of Christ, Jerry, a good New Years morning to you, my brother...

Say "Hey' to Ruth fir me, will ya'..

Praise be to God

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: harvey andrews
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:06 AM

This reminds me of a house concert I did in North America. On the wall behind where I would stand to play was an oil painting of what looked like a famous wrestler. Long blonde hair, rippling muscles, blue eyes, your typical aryan superman. I asked the host who the painting was of.He smiled at my question..the answer was obvious..
"That's Jesus." he said.
I wanted to shout out "Jesus was Jewish!"
But I bit my tongue, thinking what's the use.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:22 AM

Well, he was a famous wrestler -- but not that sort! :>)

This reminds me of those puerile arguments people get into when they are in fifth grade about whether Fords rule over Chevies or vice-versa. When they mature a little, most of those kids realize that the design of one's car is not a criterion for claiming personal excellence. They stop identifying themselves with brands.

If the obsession about identifying self with bodies could be outgrown as readily, and recognized for the equally immature misjudgement that it is, we could relaly get somewhere. But as I recall, back in fifth grade, trying to persuade kids with reason when they wanted to play Fords versus Chevies was not much use, either.

A

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM

Unfortunately intelligence and education seem to have little to do with ending racism. Many "intelligence and educated" people have engaged in the worst form of racism.

I can't see how intelligence and education have anything to do with this. Value systems and morality seem to be the issue.

-Richie

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:39 AM

Richie,
Sadly, I agree with you. I carefully taught my son to respect and accept each individual as a person. Welcome those who can be friends. Walk away from those who won't or can't. But respect both. He had friends and girlfriends of all races and colors.

By the time he was in his teens, he was mouthing hate about gays and Indians. Those were the groups of choice at school. According to those who knew, all gays molest children and all Indians are stupid.

How to end racism? I am going to be crucified for this but I believe the only way is to eliminate races. I also believe that this is physically and morally wrong. So we will continue to fight the good fight.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:53 AM

I disagree Sinsull, but I do think we need to end the social construct of "races."

Personally, I think it will be a sad, bland day when we are all the same shade of light brown.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

I always think it's rather a pity there isn't more than one human race, and that the Neanderthals and so forth had made it through. But we're stuck with only one, even if people make up fantasies about how different shades of skin means different races.

I can't see it lasting too much longer - if the human race as a whole survives, that is. No doubt we'll find some other reason for hating and despising each other.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Ha, ha! Good thing you kept quiet Harvey! On the other hand have you seen the "Portraits" of Indian (Hindu) Deities? They're whiter than Michael Jackson. Same as their movie stars. I'm afraid racism will be alive as long as cultures look down on their OWN for not fitting a pre-decided pretty stereotype.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

"People must realize that God created........etc"

*sigh*..one does not 'realize' any such thing...one believes...or does NOT believe, religious premises.

Racism will never be eliminated by simple preaching that it is wrong. I am afraid that SINSULL, NicoleC and McGrath are all correct, racism will persist as long as there those who look different...and all looking the same would be boring...and we'd find some other reason to discriminate.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

Discrimination and dissension may persist around differences between the way people look and behave and so forth - but the underpinning of that by the pseudo-scientific claptrap of "race" is a different thing, and I doubt if that will survive too long. Or rather it will survive too long, because any time at all is too long for it to survive, but that might not be very long.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

First, end it within YOURSELF. Recognize those attitudes/beliefs that are 'conditioned' to be intolerant and see nothing but differences. Practice letting them go every time they come up, and make an effort to get to know people of different races, beliefs and lifestyles. It's hard to stay prejudiced when you've had a friend that belongs to a 'target group'...

As your attitudes change so will your behaviours and the people around you will notice and be affected too. Your new tolerance and compassion will ripple out and affect everyone you touch. Action speaks louder than words...

I remember when I was about 6 years old my mom had found a new piano teacher for me. For a few days before my first lesson she had 'warned' me over and over that the lady was Jamaican and had dark skin and I wasn't, repeat WASN'T to stare at her or ask questions or make ANY comments. By the time we were driving over to my first lesson I had this picture in my mind of a big weird-looking beast or something and I was really scared. Too scared to say anything at all.

When I saw her smiling, tanned-looking face I was shocked and relieved! I swear if it hadn't been so 'forewarned' my childish brain wouldn't even have noticed ANYTHING 'different' about her at all! And she was the most loving, musical teacher I ever had.

Anyway here's a quote I've always loved...

"THE HEART NEVER KNOWS THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN"
      -Chief Dan George (1899-1991)
       Salish spokesperson and actor


daylia

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cllr
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

Paint everyone green,Cllr
(mind you some idiot would probably would want the light greens to be kept separate to the dark greens)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:25 PM

It's a hard one. I think we're stuck with it, sadly. Could be though that the answer is blowing in the wind.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM

It is not all "race" prejudice. Culture, religion and social stratum all get tossed into the mix. "Difference" is all that is needed.

Last year, a group running a prominent city-centre drop-in shelter and kitchen for the homeless campaigned for help. Those running it (tending towards the fundamentalist- evangelical in religions) asked for volunteers and additional donations. Help offered by the LDS (Mormons) was refused because it is a "deplorable cult."
The Mormons are a well-to-do stratum of society here, members involved in all aspects of business and service for well over one hundred years, both in the city and on the farm. I know there are many, like me, who no longer support that help centre, because of their attitude.

The point is that prejudices are many and complex, and affect us all. Racism is only one aspect of a general human failing. Obviously I am exposing some of my own prejudices here. Unconciously everyone who discusses the matter will end up doing just that.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: rangeroger
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:53 PM

I am reminded of the Star Trek episode where a planet had two "races" of inhabitant. Both had bodies divided in half with black and white coloration. Those who were white on the right half hated those who were white on the left half and vice-versa.

I agree with day-lia, in that it does have to come rom within each of us, and when our behaviors are seen and respected by others, maybe then they will be adopted by others.

rr

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

viva l'difference

Recently I heard Trent Lott explain that racism was not a value espoused by his sacred religion - THEREFORE - "I can not possibly be racist".

These guys wrap themselves in the flag and religion so tight I think they are suffocated to the point they believe their own BS.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:57 PM

A good start, John would be the elimination of such statements as "People must realize that God created all humans from one couple"!

Why must people realise this? There are many religious and secular factions which believe that this is totaly wrong. How are you going to eliminate racism by telling people that their beliefs are wrong?

I certainly agree with the sentiment but leave religion out of it. Religion, or rather its interpretation, is one of the biggest causes of bigotry and hatred in the world.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:59 PM

...racism was not a value espoused by his sacred religion - THEREFORE - "I can not possibly be racist".

A bit like saying "adultery is not a value espoused by my religion - therefore I cannot possibly be an adulterer". I don't think even Clinton would have dared to try to get away with that one.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

Joseph Campbell asked the question years ago,"Supposing everyone on earth was brought into the tribe and there were no others to look down on and villify and imagine possessing all the traits we consider wrong? What then would we do with our natural aggression?"

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM

Guest John (could he be the baptist) Oh for Gods sake spare us all this God nonsense... Belief in such baloney is the supreme arrogance of humanity....We are animals dear friends,just animals..we have the advantage of our intelligience,but the disadvantage of possesing a self destruct gene which will judging by the damage we've wrought upon this world already, will probably render us the shortest lived species in earths history...Why do we have to constantly justify our mispent tenure upon this planet with some kind of God in our own flawed image ????

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:36 PM

Nothing wrong with a little religion, if it helps some folks to pass through the long dark nights. But though Guest John's chosen faith has maybe (I doubt it though) done away with racism, it still has other issues left untended to. Could I still become a big cheese at the local mosque if I wasn't packing a willy?

And yeah, Cllr, we could paint `em all green, but we gotta get `em all or you could get this kinda scenario. Sign up at your local festival...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:47 PM

Life is tough enough with Faith. I can't imagine trying it without it. As one who know God, speaks to God and hears God, I pray that He will speak loudly enough to folks who have not opened up that part of their spiritual self, set aside their agendas, and received His love.

But I am realistic enough to know that, like riding a bike, some folks just aren't there and may mever be there.

But I also believe that God can break thru layers of doubt as long as denial has not set in.

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Dani
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:49 PM

Boy, do I wish I knew the answer to this one. It's funny you should mention it.

Check this out:

One of the Town Board Commissioners in our small village had a bad service experience at my little downtown restaurant, and because she is black, and the server and I are white, she assumed it was racial harassment. Instead of saying something about it, she went to the newspapers with a very vicious attack.

Anyone who knows me or my restaurant OR my staff knows how absolutely silly this is, and it's mired us down in an ugly situation. We are planning to meet with her tomorrow to try to sort it all out.

This is the short version of this story. I hadn't thought of posting it to Mudcat for some therapy and advice, but may decide to. I should have known that I would find here a company of thoughtful advisors!

Dani

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Sorry about that, Dani. Keep us posted.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM

Destroying racisism is a will 'o the wisp. There is no chance, not a hope. One thing man needs more than almost anything else is some one to hate. Race, Religion, the reason doesn't matter. No matter what; we hate. I think it must be built in. I hate that.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 03:05 AM

Well Dani I hope your not looking for devine intervention to solve the problem you have had foisted upon you by what sounds like nothing more than some meurotic opportunist who's chosen to jump on that most easy of bandwagons....

Of course when one refers to racism one must also remember it isnt an exclusively white black situation...it is at least as commonly ingrained a problem with blacks of different nationalities and colour castes and is rampant in the asian world with all its primitive base beliefs and caste systems running full pelt even in this 21st century...slavery happened within the african tribal systems thousands of years before whites ever set foot on their shores...it still lives on in the wealthiest African state of Benin....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:11 AM

Guest John started the thread with a quotation of the Qur'an. This old myth stemmed from the bronze age, today we think a little bit more modern.
   Nevertheless, if it helps to fight racistic strains, let it stand for the believers. By the way, when discussing the qualifications for the imam = leader of the community in prayer, the early Islamic sect Kharijia decided: Every faithful is qualified, even the "nigger slave" (lowest level on the social ladder). Now imagine this conception e.g. in Little Rock, Ark. at about 1950.
   In my country Germany we had our full lot of nationalism, racism, persecution, and murder over the centuries. So most of us felt the need of reconciliation, and we first succeeded with our hereditary enemy, the French. Today in TV I saw Polish and German catholics hearing memorial mass together in a place where they fought the hardest battle some 80 years before about Upper Silesia. It's time to hope. And when serving my time I never considered the Red Army's soldiers as beastly enemies but as the same poor guys I was: Conscripts in Poor Bloody Infantry.
   For all wanting to put aside religion I may give a secular quotation of the great Mexican president Lic. Benito Juarez:
Entre las naciones como entre los hombres el respeto al derecho ajieno es la paz.
Between nations as between men the respect for the other one's right is peace.
   Nothing to add.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:29 AM

Even if we could get rid of recism there will still be predudice about religion, gender, social class, age and many other things. In America you have Polish jokes, in the UK we make the same jokes about the Irish, and in Ireland they do so about the Kerrymen.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM

There's a distinction between xenophobia, hatred or fear of the stranger, of the people who are different, and "racism".

The former is pretty widespread and turns up in one way and another everywhere. But "racism" is a particular variation of it which has only been around for a couple of centuries, with a pseudo-scientific set of assumptions built in to justify it.

It's rooted in a history of imperial expansion and exploitation and the slave trade and so forth. The key thing about it is that it identifies "the others" on appearance (rather than on behaviour), and attaches the label "race" to this, and has a built-in presumption of hierarchy, of "races" being supposed to be implicitly "superior" or "inferior". With xenophobia there is not necessarily that kind of assumption, the antagonism need not assume inferiority on the part of the others.

I think there is in fact a real hope that "racism" as such, being a pretty recent invention in my terms, will die out. But that doesn't mean that various types of xenophobia won't continue, and won't need to be resisted. (And "racism" still has a pretty deep hold on a lot of people, especially in some parts of the world.)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

It is refreshing and encouraging to observe that, at least in this tread, there are those who have learned the lessons of the past fourty or fifty years on this issue: that sweeping legislation won't do it,that government CAN'T do it, and that we, in our daily lives, MUST do it. Only by each of us as individual human souls interacting with other souls can can we successfully fight any sort of good fight with any hope of victory.

    Sadly, it is unlikely to be a total victory. As long as there are human beings there will be those who, for one reason or another, cannot or will not think things through completely as they deal with other people. The good news is that we CAN, in time and with a great deal of work, reduce the power of racism to the point that it has no power and holds no terror. It involves the mindset with which one approaches one's interactions.


    I'd like you to try something. Stretch each arm out from your body to the left and the right as far as they will go. Pretend that you've just been fishing and you are trying to show the size of the one that got away. Let that proportion represent everything that any given human being is, has been, or could become. Now, put your arms down and place one of your index fingers (use either hand) as close to the thumb of that hand as you can without actually touching it. Pretend that you are about to say "I missed by THAT MUCH!" Let that represent the importance of skin color, in the Sight of God (or, if you prefer, in the context of the Universe) as compared to the previously demonstrated proportion. Damned insignificant, ain't it?

    Unfortunately, we live in a society which would prefer to reverse those proportions. Even many very well meaning people do not quite understand that skin color is one of the least important aspects of our nature as human beings. The trick to maintaining the mindset is to find the reversal unacceptable -- especially from yourself. approach and interact with each individual soul you meet as exactly that: an individual soul, with all of the diginty and respect that said soul is due simply by existing in this world. While legislation and other such measures are useful (to a limited degree), only tis mindset can actually attack the problem itself rather than merely making the cosmetic changes brought on by lawmakers.

    It is, unfortunately, a long, slow proccess. But it CAN and WILL
achieve the goal.


Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:15 PM

exhibit heartfelt tolerance

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM

I would be remiss if I didn't also add to this discussion that there are some tools, while not being cure-alls, are important in the struggle to "end racism" and they are anything that we do that levels the playing field. Affirmative action is one of those tools. While it can be argued on a case basis that is is discriminatory, when taken collectively it does provide society a means of franchising non-whites, which I think is step in the right direction.

I just didn't want that point to go uncovered in this discussion.

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:14 PM

That's an interesting point, McGraw. Gave me some good pondering time. I can accept that racism would be greatly exacerbated by imperialism. I'm not sure that I can accept that differences in appearance would be irrelevant to our most base instinct of tribalism. Perhaps we will never know, because it never happened? Stories of white children raised by native americans come to mind, but I only know that from Hollywood. There's the genetic impulse to socialization in ever larger(?) groupings. What kept native american tribes separated? Genetic impulses (couple with competition for resources)? Cultural xenophobia (however mild)?

Were white Europeans many centuries ago more predisposed to develop racism due to circumstances? Were native americans really blind to any differences in appearance between tribes?

You may be right on that point (ethnic strife may be prehistoric, but racial is recent), and I am just babbling. Back to pondering. Apologies for this brief interruption. . .

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:30 PM

As others have pointed out, racism is just one aspect of what is really a much broader issue.

Human beings, generally, have developed a pattern of determining and measuring their own worth as humans only in relation to other humans. It is considered normal for people to measure their success and worth by comparing themselves to others. For many, the more people who fall below them on whatever scale of values they are using, the more successful or worthy they feel.

In any given community, even when all of the members of the community are of the same race, ethnic group, or religion, there will still be a differentiation that will take place. For instance: I spent 13 years living in an isolated rural county that had no black people, and almost no people of any race other than white. But this county had the white equivalent of "niggers". They just used different markers and standards than race to determine who would receive the lower status.

In the case of that county, it was women who were unmarried through divorce or having never been married, people who were members of families that were designated as "trash", people who didn't have the right connections, and poor people who were discriminated against and treated with contempt.

Until people lose the need to measure their sense of self worth as compared to other people, until people lose the need to elevate themselves at the expense of others, the problem will remain in one form or another, regardless of the existence or lack of existence of "races".

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

Dave, I also hear that the Kerry folk collect all the jokes, put `em in books, and sell `em back to the English.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

No, here's what's wrong. As much as I hate to remember or restate this fact, here it is: My five year old daughter, in kindergarten, with a real rainbow of races in her class, told me about one boy pulling one girl's pigtails (or some such event.) I said: "Maybe he has a crush on her." She said: "No. A tan boy couldn't have a crush on a brown girl." This really blew my mind. Shet gets NONE of that kind of thinking from her home environment. I may be white, but no: None of that. And she was cared for for three years by a black woman, whom she loved and still loves. She said to me that one black girl in her class "is the nicest person I have ever met." Her best friend in her class is a very dark native american.

There is something very innate about this problem. It is not purely a cultural development.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:43 PM

My kindergarten tale fits your explanation, Carol. But it still shows the deep seated behavioral component, to be distinguished from socialization issues.

Dan

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:44 PM

herc, in the case of your daughter, it might not be racism as much as a simple observation based on what she sees around her. Are there any/many inter-racial couples in her day to day environment? She may just be drawing a logical conclusion based on her own experiences.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM

No, there's not. You may be right. But . . . .

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:51 PM

It sounds to me like she was quoting what she heard someone say. Now doing that is something for which there really is an inbuilt instinct among most children.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:56 PM

Maybe so McGraw. I've only had half time custody since she's been in kindergarten. But the use of the word "tan" causes me to think otherwise. Anyway - our scientific controls for this one are down the flue.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM

I think it is basic human nature for people to gravitate towards other people who are Like Them - whether it's because of race, religion, social status, common interests, whatever. We all have our tribes of one sort or another.

But how to end racism? How about, by being nice to one another. Wow, what a concept.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

Agreed on both points, Kim. Teenaged girls (and boys) at the mall are paired up in basic "appearance" categories. Yep, just be nice to your next door neighbor would go a long way.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

I disagree that it's basic human nature to gravitate only toward others like oneself. I think that's more of an exposure issue. If a child is exposed to a lot of different configurations of types of people, (and not indoctrinated with any kind of bigoted thought processes) it will feel perfectly natural to him or her for different kinds of people to get together.

From the age of ten, my son has lived in environments in which people of all different races, religions, and ethnic groups pair in no particular patterns. He is now age 19, and he is attracted to women of many races and cultural backgrounds.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:31 PM

That's different, CarolC. He's horny. ;)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:42 PM

Sounds like a classic case of projection to me, Cluin. I just saw your post to my "proper tea" thread ;-)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:51 PM

I ain't denyin' it. We all relate things like this to our personal experience. I'm attracted to women of all races and cultures too and I'm not all that cosmopolitan.

Hey, some of my best fantasies are black...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:53 PM

I don't know if there is any point in being serious here. It is my experience that people have and instinct to form groups with like people. But they have to learn what the similarities and differences are.

To any or all of these can be the deciding factor, Politics, Income. religion, common interests, mutual dislike of others, etc. Different people put different weights on each factor. Also we can easily change our groups and loyalties. Take two otherwise identical young men, who meet in a bar, one a sailor, another a marine. Chances are there will be prejudice between them, even though just a few years before, nothing would have prevented them from becoming friends, unless they were in different schools or cheered for different football teams or came from rival towns.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM

Hey Dan! I didn't notice your name until just now! You might be interested to know that I started thinking it might be you before I saw your name. Good to see you around.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:43 PM

Without diversity life would be pretty boring.
A lot of prejudice is a learned behavior. A person who grows up with racism can make the choice to continue to be that way or change their thought patterns and change what they teach to their next generation.
Prejudice is judging entire races, for what a few do. I prefer to get to know people as individuals and go from there.
Dave the gnome-I agree with you on the religion matter, and I always say, "there are six billion people on earth and six billion religions" It's all how you act and what you believe. To change the masses is a step at a time and spreading your goodness around.
Cluin- Love the 'green meanies'
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

Hiya Carol and Happy Birthday, old gal. I knew you'd spot it.

Dan

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Tinker
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:12 PM

Just a ramble to add in... my kids are growing in a town where diversity is rampant, inter-racial couples not at all uncommon and grade school friends and parties look like posters for the UN. But.... come High School the kids start to segregate themselves into an amazing number of catagories. They pressure each other at times to stay with those "like us".

Developmentally adolescence is a time to sort out who the people "like me" really are. It's part of finding who I am. Now, anecdotal information says most kids go off to college and go back to making diverse friends. But no one seems to have a clue why for so many kids this becomes a time to explore being racist...

No answers, just one day, one person at a time...

Kathy

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 09:37 PM

Tinker, well said.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:29 PM

To answer the original poster, all colors yes...but the women are shunted to the side, and not allowed to worship alongside men. Sexism is no better than racism.

Thanks but no thanks.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 09:58 AM

There's a quote I like where a US Northerner visiting down South asks a non-bigoted white local: "What do you call black folks hereabouts?".
To which the reply was: "I call 'em friends until and unless they prove otherwise."
I would hope we treat all people thus -as individuals,not as stereotypes. The more saintly among us would continue to treat everyone as friends even if they prove otherwise but I'm not that good!
RtS

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 10:36 AM

Carol, I didn't mean "only." I meant in general. What qualifies as "like me" can be a whole lot of different things, depending on the situation.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

I understand, Kim. Still, when I think back on the racial, ethnic, religious, and cultural backgrounds, and the interests of the friends my son had in both high school as well as middle school, I can't help but disagree with you. What they had in common, mostly, was that they all went to the same school. That's a proximity issue more than a sameness issue.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:20 PM

Right! But that's still something they had in common. I guess what I'm trying to say is that everyone has something in common with somebody and it doesn't necessarily have to do with race, religion, or culture. Sometimes it does, but not always. And wherever you are, you might look for people who are like you - whether that has to do with gender, race, age, common interests, whatever.

Maybe the idea in my head is just bigger that what I have the words for.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:11 PM

To bring a bit of music to the thread perhaps

What we need is great big melting pot
Big enough to take the world and all it's lot...

Now, no prizes:-) Who sang that and for bonus no prizes, who knows the rest?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM

In my view, racism could be lessened considerably if in the educational system there were classes in anthropology. It's one of the most important subjects there is. Anthropology is the basis for folk music as well. If we were to understand other cultures and the true significance of racial differences in this light, a lot of preconceptions would be thrown out.

Racial classifications on a social scientific level are arbitrary.
They have no meaning aside from the culture. A black person can be raised to be "whiter" than a white person and vice-versa. There are genotypical aspects such as a propensity for folks with broader features to sing a different way or to have physical attributes, but the use of these things is dependent on their respective cultures.
A scientific understanding of physical as well as cultural anthropology would do more for this country than relying on military, political or economic solutions to solve national or international problems.

If we had a governmental department of anthopology instead of domestic defense against terrorism, we would not need the latter.

Music, which is obvious to everyone here, is a great antitdote to racism. It's hard to be angry at anyone when we're singing together.

Frank

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:52 PM

Ooooohhhh Jesus this discussion is reaching new heights of wooliness.....We've gone from religious rhetoric to socialogical gobbledygook to anthropology......Spare me please...every branch of the human race has it prejudices against others,thankfully here in the more organised western nations we have (particularly) since the attrocities of Nazi Germany sought to put safeguards into how we organise our societies...which it has to be said is constantly being undermined by the saturation of unfettered immigration from the third world and the problems it brings to us the indigenous populations of our respective nations...face it fellows prejudice there is,and prejudice there always will be...Please dont go burduning our
with more soppy wetback sociological teaching during their schoolday....Children go to school to learn how to read write and add up not to be guinea pigs to those who would like to manipulate their young thoughts with the latest batty branch of ideology...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

The last thing I wanted to do this Friday night was spend several hours writing, editing, and typing this post. However, I needed to do it, because it's certainly the best way to help us reflect and reexamine our views on GUEST, Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!. What follows is a series of remarks addressed to the readers of this post and to GUEST, Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!! him/herself. Someone once said to me, "GUEST, Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!! should just face the facts." This phrase struck me so forcefully that I have often used it since.

On a more pedestrian level, s/he should not manipulate public understanding of mendacity. Not now, not ever. Someone has been giving GUEST, Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!'s brain a very thorough washing, and now GUEST, Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!! is trying to do the same to us. This is no way to spend a Friday night!

I hope I have made myself perfectly clear.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:46 PM

I have no desire to end racism, I'd rather see it play out as far as it can go, instead of staying mired in bulk notions. I used to oppose it, and would argue with people about it, but came to feel I had no more to go on than anyone else, saw we were just being self-important to each other about stuff none of us knew anything about. I don't believe in equality of races, except as a practical averaging measure, to hedge our bets until we find out who is best and why, and what follows from that. For now I don't know, don't know how I'd get that information, or what use I'd have for it.

But some years ago I was glad to see The Bell Curve being hailed as brave scholarship investigating the question. The race question. I keep forgetting what exactly is the race question--who is better, smarter, faster? Who are the six million dollar men? I hope one day we'll be able to track the relative worths of races and demographics of people like issues on the stock market, daily, so that White guy intelligence might close four points lower today, loyalty in Pigmy Teenagers up a point and a half, Cuteness of kittens--but maybe that's digressing? I don't know.

I don't think racism ever was a real idea, just a seductive rationalization, and taking it seriously perpetuates it. I agree with Bobert, because affirmative action is a reasonable averaging method of policy that makes sense until we learn to really separate the wheat from the chaff. It doesn't matter if it's discriminatory, everything is anyway. Might as well have a half-decent reason every now and then.

Herc, my kids have gender ideas that didn't come from us--we think--but what can you do, kids meet up with stuff. There would appear to be an innate tendency of boys to make vvrroom sounds, which was probably very strange before motors. But my kids don't know to call a black kid black, have to describe each kid, and my daughter has never said anything about it in weighing her crushes on boys with darker skin, or tall hair like Jimmy Neutron, or whatever.

Yuk, you might want to know that--among other things--you sound like a humpty-dumptyish interior decorator who can't work a tape measure but with vast intellectual pretensions, with your yuks, and spare me pleases. I look forward to your finding something "yummy" a "treat" or perhaps "kind of wonderful." You seem to be styling opinions to flatter yourself, to pose with, as some of us do, as I know I do, but jeez, ease up. Offer something else in the b.s. bargain. Some people actually mean something when they talk about religion, doesn't hurt to listen, even if, like me, you have trouble seeing it. It might do you some good you seemingly utter high-handed doofus.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 08:08 PM

Our reptilian brain creates fear. Fear creates hate and hate creates racism. Only evolution can eliminate this process.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 08:09 PM

Dani, that woman's tirade says more about her than about you.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:58 AM

CarolC ...yiu are becoming less clear by the day..perhapsa I should rename myself "all that CarolC nonsense ha ha...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:20 AM

True enough people tend to associate with people they find similar, especially when they are in a stressful situation.

The question is though, what similarities do they pick out? And the odd thing is how, rather than age and appearance and general style (scruffy, sharp etc) people so often pick out "race" as the relevant factor.

I always remember how years ago on a trip to Morocco we were wandering through the souk, and it was a but scary. All around us were Arabs and Berbers, friendly enough, but looking so different from what we were used to - and suddenly we saw this black guy selling corn-on-the-cob, and he looked so familiar. I mean, he was Moroccan too, and we'd no more (and no less) in common with him than anyone else in the street, but he looked just like the blokes we were used to seeing in the street markets back home in London. And the whole place felt much less scary.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:51 AM

How right you are, McGrath - and I think the more the young ones see of the world the more they become familiar with its diversity.
With the Boy Scouts we had no class limits, and we greeted the foreign scouts as they were: white, black, yellow, brown and so on - all brethren. Here we learned to respect the foreigners in their ways and learned a lot of and about them, could teach them something, too.
This attitude helped me a lot when travelling in three continents. Wherever I have been, I first looked for scouts and firemen with whome I have more in common than with my fellow countrymen of the big travel agencies (mostly bad manners abroad).
So my advice to fight racism, jingoism, intolerance &c. is to accomodate the young as soon as possible to the diversity of the world and its people. Give them good literature about this theme. In English literature I remember the Merchant of Venice, where the Jew deplores his fate in a subdued minority: Is his blood not as red as that of the majority &c.? Isn't he a human being, too? Very strong text.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:59 AM

Fred or is it windy..What a conceited smug load of old claptrap you come out with.....Theirs nothing yummy old boy about hypocrasy and socialiological psycho babble....Yummy is not what this dicussion is about....This racism thing has become an industry in its own right...funny isnt it how so many people seek asylum in such alleged terribly racist nations as Britain and the US.....

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:06 AM

Ahhhh Yuk how can you be so sweet and charming first thing in the morning? May you be first when good things come, and may all your YUKS turn into YUMS ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Yuk, come off it. You're just pissed that 'wetbacks' seeking asylum in Britain and the U.S. can spell more words of english than you can, can operate a tape measure, and they go around smoking and believing in God, yuk. You still write like a drunk talks, saying the same thing over with new emphasis, congratulating yourself for having a ratty scrap of a second-hand opinion.

   If you weren't so disappointed in yourself you wouldn't have to hate a lot of people you don't even know. Whatever it was, try forgiving yourself for it guy.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM

I mean, he was Moroccan too, and we'd no more (and no less) in common with him than anyone else in the street, but he looked just like the blokes we were used to seeing in the street markets back home in London. And the whole place felt much less scary.

I think this story very nicely makes my point that exposure is more important (in the absence of any training in bigotry) than sameness. This man felt comforting, not because he was the same as you in any way, but because you were accustomed to seeing people like him in your day to day environment.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:54 AM

I have to admit to being a bit prejudiced against YUKs.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:13 PM

The various evolutionary adaptations that various human races have developed are a successful means of dealing with a particular enviornment and climate.

The Asian skin folds to ward off the wind
The white skin to produce the maximum vitamin D from minimum sunlight
The black skin to stop penetrating equatorial sun and hide from prey
etc.

When an outsider comes to interbreed and alter those adaptations aggresion is one means to prevent the dissolution of those special life saving traits.

In a modern civilation the various traits have little or no advantages whatsoever.

But the reptilian mind of agression and self/tribal preservation lives on.

Add nuclear weapons to the mix and you can see what is coming.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:41 PM

Do you see the shallowness of all that happy new year nonsense now...Good wishes humbug....Of course another evolutionary trait is the instinct of the human pack animal...no one can doubt it is an excellent mechanism for preservational purposes, then no one can realy deny when such instincts surface that it is surely a betrayal of the alleged higher capacity of the human being to have truly independant thought.... Gods, hymm books...the only true rationale is attack...Hardly the actions of a higher species truly capable of abandoning prejudice...So spare me your humbug platitudes about racial tolerance...is that why the American people voted for an inarticulate dimwitted rich kid in hock to the oil industry to run what is allegedly the last remaining superpower...is this the rational impartial socialy aware mass mind you are refering to that is also capable of judging each race of people irrespective of their skin colour or racial origins...surely not ????/

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM

I've heard it's not our job to be judging. I've heard it's our job to learn how to love better. Starting with ourselves. And that's all!

Gonna go give myself some big hugs right now ... yumyumyum ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:03 PM

Homogeneity of the human race is not desirable until the peoples of an evolving world attain comparatively high levels of spiritual development.

Homogeneity-the same in structure,quality,etc.;similar or identical.

This line came from the book of Uranchia, anyone familiar with this book? This book details a long line of how the races started, how they interbred, how they(or we)killed each other off, and how we evolved and formed new races. This book could possibly blow some people away, being the claim of the first color of races were-orange, blue, green, indigo, brown and yellow. Maybe red in there, but what-ever, my point is racial discrimination goes way back to the beginning of evolution, and the fight for land, food, creating a more advanced race.
So, if you would choose to look at it, as an Uranchian point of view, racial predjudice was and will be until that enlightened race evolves.
OK, with that said, carry on!
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:25 PM

There is only one human race, with a few pretty insignificant variations. There used to be a few more, bur not since thusands of years ago.

Except a lot of people treat some of the insignificant diffeences as if they were significant. Colour of skin, I ask you! Why not shoe size?

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM

The book is Urantia 1935 and was an attempt at some kind of "esperanto" philosophy, religion, anthropology and physics that is all full of crap except their shot gun approach got a few things right by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM

The Urantia Foundation website....great dollops of religion, flying saucers, social theory, and psychic babble all mixed up in a stew with a recipe thousands of pages long. Something to curl up with on a cold winter's night.

When you are done, you can start on Oahspe, where you get actual drawings of the path of the Great Serpent across the galactic phalanx! Such a deal!

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

How to end racism?

Well, first of all, become a doctor and discover a marvellous cure for something, and then, when people really start to take notice of you, you can jolly well tell them what to do and make sure they get everything right so there'll never be any racism ever again.

Thanks, Jackie! That was great!

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:59 PM

McGrath, did I imply to more than one human race? If I did it was in error. I mean to say colors of the race.
Bill D-I will have to check out your clickies later. The Uranchia ideas are similar to many of my beliefs, especially with ufo's and the bible, but that's another thread, and the knowledge of people being on earth way before the biblical Adam and Eve, and many other things but I apologize, for this is definitely thread drift.
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:54 AM

The quality of this discussion deteriates more by the day ..We'll be discussing what the Teletubbies have to add to the debate on racism next.....

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:08 AM

Al Yuk, at least there are your brilliant insights to keep the thread going. You're back to your typical style, after your previous post.

   My post which you called smug conceited old claptrap wasn't meant to be, but if it seemed I was pretending to be above any racist perceptions, I guess it's fair. I meant only that I felt ridiculously arrogant when I used to try to hold an opinion on race at all. It's not really an intellectual sort of thing, and I don't feel I need to have a big opinion about it. As for old, I thought this was my own thinking , I don't know where you've heard it before, and it doesn't matter. I'll try to be fresher. As for sociological something or other, I'm not sure if you meant me or other posts in general, but I was actually making fun of a intellectual or sociological approach, because I think it has nowhere to go. It's a reaction to the pseudo-intellectual rationales of racism, and winds up making the same sort of error, to oppose it. Just my thoughts, in case they were misunderstood to mean that I think I'm above it all.

   I think you've confused humility with arrogance and not just about my post, but about people who are particularly religious, you've confused this thread about rascism with your zenophobic and nationalist feelings about immigrants, and you're just plain rude about all your half-baked ideas, offering little insight from your life, and continue criticising generally as if everyone has turned in their thoughts and core beliefs for your approval. Talk about arrogant. In this way, dude, you make a convincing impression of a pretty messed-up puppy.

   The teletubbies are different colors, and they all get along fine, even the gay one, Tinky Winky, I thinky.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:35 AM

Tinky Winky the gay teletubbie you thinky? That's just pinky!!! he he he he - BTW good morning YUK!!! Here's a little loving uplifting energy for you ...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ :-) }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} xxooo

Don't spend it all in one store now!!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:43 AM

Familiarity! That's what I meant but couldn't put a finger on it. Familiarity could have to do with sameness, but not necessarily. That's it exactly. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Alas that seems to be a problem with you Freddy..you think you are above racism and anybody else who finds your milky white perceptions different..

For an impartial bystander you've already managed to single out interior decorators,the mathematicaly challenged,poor spellers(of which I count myself),and Humpty Dumpty..now come on folks w,what did poor old Humpty Dumpty ever do to arouse minoriy hate..not to mention the pigmentaly challenged Teletubbies ..need I say anymore ????

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,lardingo
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:50 PM

It's easy. Just appoint a committee to determine which groups have been racist toward which groups. Then, require the guilty groups to transfer some of their wealth to the group that has been discriminated against. Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 07:17 PM

Not so easy Lardingo because all group have their prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

I think race 'awareness' adds to the richness of the fabric of this world, right along with the various strengths of multiple cultures. I didn't always feel that way- it's certainly not the way I was reared to be- but like McGrath implied above, eventually you become aware that shoe size is just as significant in defining virtue or the lack of it as the color of one's skin.

There are two black men in my family- one is blue-black, from West Africa and the other is the normal run-of-the-mill American black kid. I hope that eventually we'll get more color into our family. The 'white' person's skin, if you judge by mine, is nothing to drool over.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 01:58 AM

More black people in the family sounds just about as patronising and racialy prejudiced a load of old wishy washy nonsense as i've heard since Freddy entered this conversation....I say fellows lets have lots more yellow people and brown people and olive skinned and milky white skinned people in the family..after all whats the point of owning a coulour TV if you aint got colour......

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 02:12 AM

May as well add music and guns to this thread. Our culture minister is now called a racist.

Howells accused of failing to understand that gun culture in black music is reflection of society in which fans live

Fiachra Gibbons, arts correspondent
Monday January 6, 2003
The Guardian

The outspoken culture minister, Kim Howells, last night found himself at the centre of a race row after claiming that the time had come to stand up to the "idiots" of rap culture.

Mr Howells, who previously attacked exhibits at the Turner Prize show as "cold, mechanical conceptual bullshit", launched into an extraordinary attack on black British music hours after the police had criticised the music industry for "glamorising guns".
During a radio discussion on the killing of two black teenagers caught in the crossfire between rival gangs in Birmingham after a new year party, Mr Howells laid part of the blame at the door of British rappers.

"The events in Birmingham are symptomatic of something very, very serious," he said. "For years I have been very worried about these hateful lyrics that these boasting macho idiot rappers come out with.
"It is a big cultural problem. Lyrics don't kill people but they don't half enhance the fare we get from videos and films. It has created a culture where killing is almost a fashion accessory."
He reserved his greatest fury for the controversial south London garage outfit, So Solid Crew, three of whose 30 members have been convicted or are awaiting trial on gun offences.

"Idiots like the So Solid Crew are glorifying gun culture and violence," the minister claimed. "It is something new. I heard very interesting comments about [violence] in Victorian times and thugs on the street. But they didn't have these methods of popularising this stuff. It is very worrying and we ought to stand up and say it."
Rappers who carry guns in their videos are "particularly sick", he said.

Earlier, So Solid Crew were singled out for criticism by Metropolitan police assistant commissioner Tarique Ghaffur, who blamed a "backdrop of music" for alienating young men and encouraging them to use weapons as fashion statements.

But last night Conor McNicholas, editor of the music magazine NME, described the minister's outburst as "deeply racist".
"He doesn't understand the culture. It is this idea again that we have to do something about these out-of-control black people in our streets and the nasty culture they are perpetuating," he said.
"They are deeply racist sentiments. We have to be absolutely clear, the gun culture is a function of urban deprivation and not because of the music. The music reflects the experience of young people and doesn't create it.

"There is more rap music listened to and bought by white kids in Swindon than there is by black kids in Hackney, and nobody is talking about the gun culture on the streets of white suburban Britain."
Mr McNicholas said he was surprised that Mr Howells had chosen to roam so far from his brief, which mainly involves tourism.

"He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. We have to recognise that these are young kids who are growing up in very difficult environments who happen to make music as a way of expressing themselves and their frustrations. Just because these guys are making music about the situation they are in does not mean they are perpetuating the culture. The music is not creating the problem."

So Solid Crew, in common with many black musicians and promoters contacted by the Guardian yesterday, said they were sick of being tarred with the "drugs and violence" stereotype, and several refused to comment, claiming that debate only reinforced prejudice. Promoter Lance Lewis said it was nonsense to see rap as bloodthirsty and perverse. "No rapper con dones killing, anyone who says that doesn't know what they are talking about."

A spokeswoman for So Solid Crew did say that the rise in gun violence had nothing to do with music. "It's poverty and crime which are escalating. Cocaine addiction is escalating too. They are just reflecting what they see around them. Their music is reflecting society just as Robert de Niro reflected American gangster society in his film roles. They are out there trying to make a positive difference in British black culture."

She pointed to the fact that Ms Dynamite, whom the police have praised for her stance against drug dealers and black- on-black violence, has defended the band, who played a key part in her own emergence.

Ms Dynamite has dismissed as "bullshit" the idea that the garage scene is inextricably linked with violence. "The media have blown it out of all proportion. Garage is a young London scene. That's why people in power are afraid of us and try everything to shut us down," she said. "There is violence wherever you go and the rave is a small part of it. It is a metaphor for life in general."
She also refused to condemn So Solid's Ashley Walters, aka Asher D, who was released from jail in October after an 18-month sentence for possessing a gun. Walters, a former child actor, had been the subject of several death threats before his arrest following an altercation with a traffic warden.

"I'm not one to judge, but he was naive," Ms Dynamite said. "Anyone who thinks they can carry a gun in this country is in for a shock."
Academic Ben Bowling, of King's College, London, who is studying the effects of gun culture, claimed rap was hugely misunderstood.
"Not only Ms Dynamite but lots of other bands like De La Soul and Us Three sing out against violence and drug culture. Rap is a very wide church," he said.

He believed it was unfortunate that Mr Howells' comments had come at a time when "there is a movement on the street and in the music industry saying 'no' to violence". The only way gun crime was going to stop, he said, was for communities themselves to reject it, as had happened in the United States.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,869428,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM

More informed comment in today's Independent.

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=366976

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

I got the impression you had misunderstood me, Yuk, and you seem to prefer to continue to, unless you're just being a bit flippant, I can't tell. I tried to to think whether you might have a point, and you may, my comments were mostly in joke form, which I confess to have a weakness for. But I really can't get a clear idea what you think about this question, except whatever it is, you're pretty sure about it, and we're all pretty stupid not to get it.

Oops, it's 'X'enophobia.

Less jokingly, I don't expect cartoony and generalised judgements about people are going to go away, but does anybody think that meaningful connections doing satisfying work might help? At least on the small scale, people tend to put aside biases when they have something else worth doing. So I'm thinking, as a confessed liberal, it may well be we are all one big family, but in the unidealised sense that it's quite easy to use whoever's handy to vent the garbage we bring home from work. Even conservatives might agree that their ideal of a free market doesn't always play out ideally. The U.S. seems to have an awful lot of violence for an inspired free-thinking country with a thousand points of light and ten thousand maniacs. What is it that produces all that rage? Again I think race and other differences may just be the rationales as to who to target, when we happen to need targets.

    At any rate, it might be really naive to assume that racial hatred is rooted in race, instead of simply in the roots of hatred--to keep thinking that it has to really make sense, that there's a real innate logic to it. That's what I was joking about. Maybe I shouldn't be flippant about it, since most people take race more seriously as a question than I've decided to. That's my idea, without the smart-ass reducto ad absurdum format. Naturally I myself form intelligent and insightful appraisals of the innermost character of everyone in the world, as Yuk has correctly understood me to imply.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

I daresay that if we all examine ourselves we'll find some racist thoughts. I lived in Japan a few years ago, and experienced it a number of times. (I.e. walking into a bar and being told 'sorry Japanese only', can you imagine that happening in Vancouver now)
my Japanese girlfriend at the time asked me whether or not there was racism in Canada and would never have considered herself to be racist and yet she made comments about Chinese, or Koreans. (I once mentioned to her that she looked Chinese more than Japanese) It was more an observation, I wouldnt know how to describe the differences other than to say there are certain characteristics that are Japanese and some that are Chinese. I found out later she was deeply hurt and offended by that casual remark, and yet at the same time she would remark, oh that man crossing the street, hes a customer at our store, hes very nice for a Korean. She was a lovely sweet person, who would never hurt anyone, and yet she never did get it.

I will admit that, in my business I dont like dealing with people from certain cultural backgrounds (ie. haggling to get the best price, once the deal is done trying to get more than was originally agreed, and finally trying to find something wrong and get a discount
after the job is complete) I had a number of customers who were like that everytime, and got a general impression from other business people that this is the way business is done where they come from..
Of course not all people from this cultural background who came into my shop were like that, and certainly the deadbeats came from all backgrounds, and yet I get red flags whenever a customer of that type comes in.
I wont go into the cultural background as it is beside the point,
and yet whenever I got into this discussion with a former girlfriend
she would get upset and call it racist. And yet from time to time she
would make blanket comments about 'fucking Brits' (she grew up in a Canadian city with a sizable British population).

which brings me to the point that there is one group, that is ok
to make fun of. white men.

he who likes to generalize, generally lies.
(a self-refuting statement)

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Al that God nonsense YUK!!!!!
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM

In a nutshell...its not what we think or say in public that counts re: fairplay to all we come into contact with regardless of race etc...its how we treat others..."Do unto others as you would have done to you" (not all that bible stuff is wrong ha ha) is the name of the game long college education inspired rants are more for the consumption of the ranter....

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:38 PM

Can't we all just get along (pic)
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/chickena1.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:04 PM

Guest/pete, you reminded me of an older, quite wealthy friend of mine (he has since died). He was a lovely, smart WASP but he was 'self-made' and assumed he would never pay full price on anything. I was with him when he bought a refrigerator. After the deal was made- with a hefty discount, I might add- he noticed that the back corner had a very small dent in it. He demanded another discount. At length, I heard the manager say to the salesman 'Give him what he wants and get him out of here.' I was mortified.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:19 PM

I think there is a difference between making an observation, and making a racist statement. If I said, "Purple people have a different color skin than me," that's simply an observation. But if I said, "Purple people have a different color skin than me, therefore, they're not as good as me because of their purple skin," that would be a racist statement. In my mind, anyway.

Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: stevetheORC
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:23 PM

How to end racism thats easy just kill all bigots!! and those that disagree with this message Ah sod it kill everyone :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 03:24 PM

We're all racists, We're all species-ists. We're all gender-ists. We're all still tribal. It's just the self-preservation and competition instinct gone haywire in today's world where we don't know what to do with our lower-brain instincts most of the time.

If only we could recognize it ever time it rears its ugly head and not let it get in the way....

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:41 PM

Kim, I wish it would be that easy, the difference between a racist statement and an observation.

"In Germany, criminality is higher among dark skinned people" is as far as I know a true statement and in that sense an observation. But used without qualifications and without background information, it borders to a racist statement and is surely meant as such by some who use it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Es ist allerdings eine kleine Unterscheidung.

(sorry, y'all, practicing my German. :-) What I think I said was, it's certainly a small distinction.)