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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:02 PM The Led Zeppelin verdict is in, and its an acquittal. A victory for common sense, to me. First, you can't copyright a part of chord progression — if you could, there would only be, like, 20 songs in the world. More relevant, though, is what I advised the Led Zeppelin team to focus on: that the descending line underneath an arpeggiated A minor chord goes back way before Spirit's "Taurus" in 1968 — a string of 60s hits used it, including "Music To Watch Girls By" and "Chim Chimminey". The legal maneuver is not to try to prove that Stairway to Heaven is different from Spirit, but to show that both songs are borrowing from a musical motif that goes back at least to the time of Bach. This is a switch from the way lawyers used to defend copyright claims. I worked for CBS when Billy Joel and Michael Jackson were sued, respectively, for "We Didn't Start the Fire" and "Billy Jean." In both cases, previously unknown songwriters who had never written anything before, claimed that these brilliant songwriters stole their songs. How likely is that? The defense tried to prove differences and won, but they were tough trials and there were many other cases defended with a similar strategy that lost (such as the My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine case). There are lots of songs that sound alike, but hey, there are only 12 notes. Daniel Levitin |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:08 PM Actually, Michael, yes. Both are innocent, as far as the law goes. One can argue right and wrong forever, and never come up with a definitive answer that satisfies everyone. With songs, it's a very difficult question, and there are no easy answers. Led Zeppelin made a lot of money, and a great proportion of it was due to that little riff at the beginning of "Stairway to Heaven." And that riff is simple enough that many people could have come up with it independently, or maybe from having heard it sometime way back in their lifetime. But it was Led Zeppelin who made that riff and that song what they became, and I don't believe anybody else deserves compensation for that. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM Joe: This. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: John P Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM michaelr, are you arguing that Led Zeppelin stole that chord progression from Spirit? You haven't actually said. Or are you arguing that Led Zeppelin being exonerated by the court is somehow akin to Nazism? Either way, it seems daft. And offensive in the second case. As for the first, I wrote that chord pattern about three months after I learned to play the guitar. Who should I sue? Jerry Jeff Walker? Also, the thing that sets Stairway apart is what happens after the descending run, the rhythm of the G going back up to the Am. The Spirit song does something else entirely at that point, the point at which the myriad of other Am-with=descending-bass riffs differentiate themselves from each other. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM No, and no. We'll never know, but the similarity between "Taurus" and "Stairway" is close enough to make one wonder whether Zep was not at least subconsciously influenced by the former. The fact that Randy Wolfe has been dead for decades and did not during his lifetime decide to sue Zep also makes one wonder. What I'm saying is that just because a guy in a robe made a ruling, it does not necessarily mean that justice was served. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM Likewise, just because a bunch of mercenary for hire lawyers and accounts actively seek similarities between songs in order to convince otherwise laid back musicians, or their surviving estate's lawyers and accountants, that they have a good case to sue.... ... does not necessarily mean that justice will be served....??? 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM Whatever the truth, LedZep would have would have produced an infinitely finer listening experience. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Murray MacLeod Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:15 PM If anybody got ripped off by the Stairway to Heaven riff it wasn't Randy California, it was Davy Graham ... listen to |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:16 PM Bonz - gotta disagree due to me believing they are both truly excellent bands... Go find Spirit's "Best of" and "Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus" - I know you know exactly where to look - then sit back with your headphones on...😎 |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Murray MacLeod Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM ooops ... this clip |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:21 AM The court battle over Stairway to Heaven isn't over: Article at ABC News Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven faces another legal battle after judge orders a new trial Posted Sat 29 Sep 2018, 12:13pm A United States appeals court has ordered a new trial in a lawsuit accusing Led Zeppelin of copying an obscure 1960s instrumental for the intro to its classic 1971 rock anthem Stairway to Heaven. A federal court jury in Los Angeles two years ago found Led Zeppelin did not steal the famous riff from the song Taurus by the band Spirit. But a three-judge panel of the Ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled unanimously that the lower court judge provided erroneous jury instructions that misled jurors about copyright law central to the suit. It sent the case back to the court for another trial. A phone message left with an attorney for Led Zeppelin, Peter Anderson, was not immediately returned. Michael Skidmore, a trustee for the estate of late Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, filed the lawsuit against Led Zeppelin in 2015. Jurors returned their verdict for Led Zeppelin after a five-day trial at which band members Jimmy Page and Robert Plant testified. Page said he wrote the music and Plant has claimed the lyrics, saying Stairway was an original. In several hours of often-animated and amusing testimony, they described the craft behind one of rock's best-known songs. The jury found Stairway to Heaven and Taurus were not substantially similar, according to the Ninth Circuit ruling. But it also said US District Judge R Gary Klausner failed to advise jurors that while individual elements of a song such as its notes or scale may not qualify for copyright protection, a combination of those elements may if it is sufficiently original, Judge Richard Paez said. Wesley Lewis, an attorney who handles copyright cases at the firm Haynes and Boone, said that was an important copyright principle that could prompt jurors to think differently about the case. Judge Klausner also wrongly told jurors that copyright does not protect chromatic scales, arpeggios or short sequences of three notes, the panel found. "This error was not harmless as it undercut testimony by Skidmore's expert that Led Zeppelin copied a chromatic scale that had been used in an original manner," Judge Paez said. The panel also found another jury instruction misleading. Francis Malofiy, an attorney for Mr Skidmore, said in a statement his client faced "unfair rulings at the trial court level" and looked forward "to the challenge of a fair fight." "Today, we are proud that three esteemed jurists from the Ninth Circuit recognised the battle that we fought and the injustice that we faced," he said. One of the issues that came up at trial was that jurors could only listen to experts' renditions of the sheet music for Taurus, not the recorded version of the song as performed by Spirit. Steven Weinberg, a copyright lawyer who watched the trial, said the sheet music for Taurus was not faithful to the recording, so jurors could not fairly compare the songs. The Ninth Circuit in its ruling Friday, local time, said jurors should have been allowed to hear the recording to help establish that Page had "access" to Taurus, meaning he would have been familiar with it. Mr Weinberg said a new jury will now get to hear a recording of Taurus. "I believe that ruling alone has the potential of changing the outcome at the next trial because the jury will finally get to compare 'apples to apples'," he said. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,KarenH Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM Wondering about a rubbish Led Zep version of 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You' mentioned above, as the only issue I can find is amazing. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM Then these judges are idiots and time wasters. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM Who else saw Jimmy Page play in Neil Christian's Crusaders ? |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:20 PM Hi, Bonzo. I saw Mr. Page with Neil Christian in Cleethorpes in, I think, 1964. A band from London was a rarity in my home town and I asked him how much his leather waistcoat cost. "fifteen shillings" came the friendly but pisstaking reply!. Years later Robert Plant stood on my foot! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:36 PM Fantastic, I remember he played a Gibson Black Beauty guitar which had 3 pickups, this was at the Assembly Hall in Barnet, where I also saw Ritchie Blackmore playing in Lord Sutch's Savages in September 1962. He was pretty good even then! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd Date: 30 Sep 18 - 02:07 PM First guitarist I ever saw using foot pedals! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd Date: 30 Sep 18 - 02:08 PM Jimmy Page, that is. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Sep 18 - 04:27 PM Ah yes he had one of those Dearmond volume/tone pedals! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Sep 18 - 04:31 PM Also used by the guitarist in Tony Rivers & the Castaways and of course The Hunters as shown in this recent clever video! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 01 Oct 18 - 02:55 AM I shall put the link when I get to my PC. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:36 AM De Armond Tone Pedal demo!! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:55 PM here's a sound bloke with an opinion worth listening to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MBKJDmE-OQ |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:06 PM When I worked on the Rise Again songbook, we included a Blues chapter that we're quite proud of. I got the job of researching the songs and finding out who wrote them and who owns the rights to them. I did the best I could, but it was a near-impossible job. Many of those songs that were recorded in the 1920s and 1930s, were recorded by four or five different artists the same year - with no songwriter attribution on any of them. I'm sure Led Zeppelin encountered the same problem, so I wouldn't be overly harsh in criticizing them. They revived good songs for a new generation that otherwise would never have heard anything like this. And at the time, it was common knowledge that Led Zeppelin were singing a lot of old blues songs that they revived. -Joe- You can find our Blues Chapter here, if you're interested:(chapters are in alphabetical order) |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 03 Oct 18 - 12:30 PM Fair enough, but I’m not sure we all knew they were revamping old blues songs at the time, since it was much later on that I came across such songs by earlier recording artistes. However, if it sent a new generation off in search of earlier blues stuff, then that’s no bad thing. However, I did come across an earnest Eric Clapton inspired player once who refused to believe that some of the songs were taken from Robert Johnson, which was a bit worrying. Hopefully the subsequent release of ‘Mr Johnson and Me’ (whatever it was called) might have convinced him. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Will Fly Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM I once created a video for YouTube on how to play the tune to "Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out". One commenter on the video kept insisting that it wasn't quite like the Clapton original - he'd obviously never heard of Bessie Smith! |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:23 AM Yes, but I wouldn’t castigate people for not knowing the origins of songs, more them being too blinded by their hero worship to accept the truth. A guitarist at an open mic once asked me to join him in his rendition of Malted Milk: - Do you know it? - Yes, Robert Johnson. - No, no, Eric Clapton. - Yes, but it was Robert Johnson before that.... - No, it was Clapton! ( increasingly annoyed) - Yes, but it was.... He then launched straight into it to shut me up. Probably just as well. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:12 PM I think Clapton has been especially good about acknowledging and respecting his sources. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:56 PM Yes, quite - therein is the irony. But with Led Zep, couldn’t they just have used Trad Arr, if the original sources were unclear? |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:18 PM Most likely, Jerry, that decision was up to their publisher and their agent - musicians rarely get to make such decisions once they actually begin to make serious money. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:27 PM That sounds like the real problem behind all these copyright gripes, since it’s not in the agents’ interests to miss out on extra income, in full knowledge that few can afford to sue them. |
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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:55 PM Perhaps the state of Bob Mosley should sue over this. |
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