BS: Warning LOTR return of the king

Subject: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html
Heads up for fan of LOTR
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:55 AM

http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html

Damn could someone turn this link into a blue clicky I seem to have failed on my saving throw.Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:03 AM

Here y'are

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:06 AM

Thank you Mcgrath you are a gentlemanCllr

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

Brilliant, but they could certainly use a couple of new characters, i.e. women who get to actually do something except wait for their man to return. yours, Peter T. (P.S. I think that the films are superior to the books)

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

You want a woman that does something? Watch out for Eowyn, Theoden's niece.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

You mean the blond one that sits around and waits for her man to return, as opposed to the blackhaired one that sits around and waits for the same man to return? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

Don't forget that the Morgul king cannor die by hand of man, Peter!

God, I am turning into an anorak...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM

Peter, my lad, you have lost your bearings utterly! Ha! Ha! Go view Tomb Raider or some such schlock like that if you want to see women who "take charge". You're a victim of some hideous after-effect of late 20th century marketing.

Jar-Jaromir is such a brilliant comment on commercial film-making that I am rendered speechless! Well, almost...

Forget that I said that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM

It appears you never made it to the third volume Peter.

I read somewhere that Tolkien used to read bits of the work in progress to his children, and Eowyn was to some extent his response to his daughter's complaining that the women didn't get to do much.

Books are an expression of the experience of the people who write them. For Tolkien the key experience was probably the Western Front. There weren't any women fighting in the trenches. There were women in the war, but in the field hospitals and so forth. That's reflected in the way things happen in the Lord of the Rings.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Well, I must confess I have forgotten what happened in Volume 3, glad to hear a warrior princess gets to make her mark, presumably chopping orcs into bits. The books got so boring and confusing that I must have missed that part.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

That was a hoot! I thought we were original in our LOTR/Star Wars confusion. We made Jedi Robes for our little ones (at their request) for Christmas. My eldest was wearing his and looking very sinister. When I asked what he was pretending, he said, "Mom, I'm a Nazgul with a light saber who is going to fight Darth Vader and Frodo. But not Bilbo- cause he found the one ring of power."

Did ya'll hear what the actor who did Jar Jar's voice said when asked how he felt about being the most hated Star Wars character of all time? He said, "Well, here's how I feel about it. I was in Star Wars and you weren't."

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

Oh! Ouch! Peter!!! Look, I can recommend a good therapist. Do you have trouble seeing brilliance in William Shatner too? Do you? I thought so. Get help, Peter! Get help now. I am a friend and I want only what is good for you.

- lH

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:36 PM

Myself I quite liked Jar Jar Binks, and thought the hoohah about the character cynical nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

I'm with you McGrath.... Jar Jar was the only character who was a CHARACTER in that boring movie. I was sorry they cut him out of the 2nd film. All the other charcters were cardboard stereotypes with a ton of bad acting to match a ridiculously mundane story. I fail to see the spectacle of Star Wars. Talk about being suckered in by hype!

I thought both the LOTR books and films provide great entertainment, but I wouldn't bother to hold one up to the other. Each has its own merits and those folks who whine about changes in characters need to get a life!

Sorry, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this moring. Unfortunately it was a solid wall. Ouch!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM

Peter T said he "was glad to hear a warrior princess gets to make her mark, presumably chopping orcs into bits."

Furgoonessakes! You REALLY can't have read The Return of the King!
She was in on the slaying of the head Nazgul!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM

What this Ring Cycle really needed was Brunnhilde. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM

Ya'll are obviously forgetting Shelob. Now SHE is a bad Tolkein babe!

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

Women are also quite adept sometimes at working more powerful (but subtle) energies, whilst the menfolk run around busting heads, methinks.

I tend to agree that Jar Jar Binks took more than his fair share of criticism, having been the one refreshing character in a really quite tedious and overblown film. Star Wars has lost its soul, I'm afraid, overwhelmed by special effects and a dearth of good script writing.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM

It's all propoganda we Orcs is nice'n cuddly. DISAGREE and I'll rip your guts out and fry them with tatties!!

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:58 PM

That orcs a fake - ruining manflesh by cooking it indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:13 PM

Im bloody sivelized mate i know how to scoff my food

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

There's a few more tough chicks in the Silmarillion too. Beren could never have wrested a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown without Luthien.

And the Star Wars series ran out of steam in the 70s. It took the first nose dive when they brought Grover Yoda into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

I thought he looked like Fozzie Bear after a bad shave......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM

In the extra foorage in the DVD extended version # 3 that will come out 6 years from now, JarJaromir is shown to have been a woman all along. Nobody, however, knows where to look for her genitalia. (And, yes, genItalia really is the Italian national airline.)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:17 PM

Peter T.,

I'm glad to hear someone else say the movies are better than the books. I enjoyed reading "The Hobbit", but must confess that I didn't read the LOTR trilogy. I saw the first movie, loved it, started the book, got about half way through it and just didn't care anymore. I can think of about three other books that I didn't finish.

We saw the Twin Towers tonight, I thought it was even better than first. Perhaps the movies had what Tolkien didn't, a good editor. (Steve, running and ducking).

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:24 PM

You're probably right there, Steve. There's no way that all the things in the books could have been worked into the movie anyway, even if you wanted to sit there for several more hours. I look on them as two diffent, but related, things.

Tolkien's books are more for revisiting and savouring again and again. Not to everyone's taste, to be sure. But I enjoyed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:25 PM

diffent? diffent?

Must be Elvish.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:39 AM

LOTR is like a mirror. What you say about it says far more about you than about the books.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:40 AM

Ouch

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:22 AM

Must be Elvish?

Now there's a thought. Elvish is alive and well and living in Middle earth...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:40 PM

and when Tolkein died, Elvish left the building...
x e

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

Ouch! again.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM

Dead right, troll! And life is a mirror like that too, only it's a far bigger one. Just observe what a person says about life, and you've got a good diagnosis of their basic character.

I think that in general, though, people who read the books first will prefer the books, while people who saw the movies first will prefer the movies. That would be fairly typical wouldn't it? The first experience of anything is the one that sets the pattern of familiarity and expectation.

Of course, there will still be the odd exception to that, but only among individuals of a particularly wretched and vile sort, warped from birth, and forever cursed to outer darkness...like Peter T. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: BanjoRay
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

The best literary criticism I've ever read was about Lord Of The Rings. The superb (now dead) mountaineers Dougal Haston and mancunian Don Whillans were climbing one of the unclimbed ridges on Mt Denali, when they were hit by a severe storm, and they had to spend a week in a snowhole. With nothing to do but sit and wait, Haston got his copy of LOTR out of his rucksack and read some of it. Whillans asked him what he was reading so Dougal told him, and asked him if he wanted to borrow it, as he'd already read it. After a couple of hours, Whillans threw the book at Haston with a cry of "Fookin' fairies!" and stared at the snow for the rest of the week.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:14 PM

I wanted to hit Jar Jar Binks over the head with a shovel.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM

Shovels would have been an appropriate tool for all the Star Wars films. Lucas sure piles the crap up deep.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 06:30 PM

I think the first three films (or should I say the second three - the ones that came out way back when we were all a lot younger) were great fun.

And I think the scenes with Jar Jar Binks - the underwater stuff - were the best bit in the prequels, which just didn't measure up. The point about Special Effects is that you shouldn't even notice them, just accept them as real, amazing perhaps but real. I hate stuff that looks like a video arcade game blown up to giant screen size.

Lord of the Rings comes out much better on that score. And on most others.

Apart from jokey bits about dwarf tossing and suchlike.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 06:53 PM

I'm sorry, I shouldn't knock Star Wars. I never saw the appeal, even when the original movies came out.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:56 AM

I had all but forgotten Shelob!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:09 AM

Was Brunnhilde really much better? After all she was lying there waiting for her Prince Charming to come and rescue her(typical). Then Siegfried got drunk and decides how funny it would be to start a trio (swinging, is it called?) with Gunther and Gudrun...When she finally finds everything out, she starts breaking the dishes, including the pyre where this Nordic playboy Siegfried (can't really understand what makes him so attractive) was being burnt. The classical description of female hysteria. Is that what you miss in LOTR?
Honestly, Wagner's music is outstanding, but the plot of the (other) Ring is that of a soap opera, and a bad one, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

"Wagner's music is outstanding." A good way of putting it.

"For those who like that kind of thing, that is the kind of thing they like", as Miss Jean Brodie used to say in her prime.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -- Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

PORTER WAGNER !!!

(art thieme)

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:40 AM

If the answer is 9W what is the question?

Do you spell your name with a V Herr Wagner?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: winterchild
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:11 AM

chuckle...

LOL!

ouch!

LOL!ouch! _BAD_ punners!

One point; Tolkien was indeed "long-winded", but he wrote for a time and people that went at a much slower pace than we today are used to. I read his stuff as a child with time to burn, before most of the "tolkien clones" (who are often even worse) started writing, so his work was unique and special. As an adult I find myself frustrated by a lot of the long bits in the books, but adore the movie. The care with which it was crafted makes it unique among most of today's movies, as well.

Okay, several points.

WinterC

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM

It always does seem strange that everyone seems to agree that now we have so many time-saving devices we have less time to spend than we used to. We've got far more time than in previous generations, it's just that we spend it on other things.

When people say that Tolkien is "long-winded" I'm reminded of the Austrian Emperor telling Mozart he used too many notes.

I've read the Lord of the Rings a few times now. I've never got the the end feeling "Well, that was a grind, thank goodness there isn't any more". And there are quite a lot of books, highly regarded books, and books I admire, where I have felt like that.

I think the old idea of works of fiction coming out over an extended period in parts makes a lot of sense. Not that it's old in the sense of having been abandoned, but it now seems to be resticted to some contexts.   The longest film ever made, or even the longest series of films, is dwarved in length by soap operas or long-running TV series.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Hollowfox
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

1) If you want a good synopsis/explanation of Wagner's Ring Cycle, scare up a copy of one of Anna Russell's CDs (reissued from her Columbia recordings) where she covers all four operas in 20 minutes, with musical examples.

2) For my money, the Star Wars series demonstrated the law of diminishing returns when they couldn't find a way to put Sir Alec Guinness on screen anymore.

3) I'm floodybucking Sick of people whining that there aren't enough female roles in the LOTR movies! If they made a movie about Tenzig and Hillary climbing Everest, would these dolts demand that there be a woman in the expedition?? When I was a kid in the Robin Hood mania stage, I wasn't imagining myself as Maid Marian. Hell no, I was one of the outlaws, trying my skill with archery, hunting deer, sneaking up on the sherrif's men and all. The lasses of equivalent age that I've listened to about LOTR imagine themselves as part of the Fellowship, not Arwen. When they imagine themselves as Eowen, it's as a shield-maiden, not some lovelorn lady stuck with the housekeeping. grumblegrumble$#@%@. Hrmph. Your bloodthirsty librarian, Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM

And I'm sure what Mary said doesn't just apply to kids, or to this genre.

Part of the magic of fiction is the way it can put you inside someone who is very different from you. If I was reading Jane Austin I'd never be looking round for some male character I could identify with. That's not where the action is.

Subject: RE: BS: Warning LOTR return of the king
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

So, Hollowfox, which Robin Hood was it that you were emulating? Jason Connery or any of his predecessors?

"LOTR is the second most read book in the world." This quote is from the biography of Tolkien packaged with the extended version of the Fellowship. I'm not saying they are right but I don't believe they would try to say it if it weren't up there as ONE of the most read books.

Be that as it may there are some in this world who do/will not like the books. They are written in a style that does not fit the modern world. They are long and packed with detailed description and long passages of exposition. They do not match modern sensibilities and mores. The Hobbit, a children's book, is full of death, mayhem, prejudice and bigotry. LOTR also carries on that same theme.

But I love them. I love the sense of loss and change that Tolkien weaves into the story, the great sadness that the Elves live with, the hope that Men carry and the indifference of the Dwarves to any but their own interests. I like my villains to be totally bad and easy to pick out in the story. I like my heroes to be troubled and to triumph in spite of overwhelming odds, and to still be troubled after all victories are put to bed. And I like plain down home simple people.

Tolkien puts this all together. Most of the knockoffs since do not concern themselves with any but the hero's story. The people he is fighting to defend are more abstract than integral to the story line. Tolkien brings them to life and gives them history and presence.

Or, he could have just be writing potboilers...