BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:57 PM

So in Ireland they ban smoking in pubs, and in England they ban music sessions, but leave smoking untouched. Shows where the priorities are.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:35 PM

The Irish will survive this, just as they did the tightening of drink driving laws in the early 90s. Nice to see the state finally forcing it's citizenry to come to grips with some of the worst health and addiction statistics in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: sed
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

This is truly amazing: no smoke in Irish pubs???
Can people really change? Over twenty years ago C. Orian Truss told me that the parents of his allergy patients would do anything to help their child, including mortgaging their own home to pay for treatment, BUT they just couldn't give up smoking.

We'll see what happens. Public smoke has kept me off many a stage for most of my career. Maybe as an old man I will be able to sing in bars.....

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: TonyK
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM

I prefer to think of all the good that will come of it rather than focus on what will be lost. There's no change without loss. There's a price for doing it and a price for not doing it and as an adult I get to choose.

I did a report in school a few years back about teenage smoking. The American Surgeon General Report (1994) stated that more people die from smoking related causes in one year than die of alcohol use, drug use, traffic accidents, suicides and A.I.D.S. (in America) combined. Over 400,000 per year. Non smokers that died of second hand smoke related causes came in at a paltry 50,000 per year. Granted the report is almost 10 years old and and many smokers have quit or died since then.

I quit 12 years ago and feel good about not having to worry as much about lung cancer and emphasema. I may still get it, but I won't have the sting of guilt knowing that I could've done something about it. I empathize with smokers' struggles and try to help whenever I can. Been there, done that. Smoke-free is a beautiful thing.

Tony K

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: HelenR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

I'd like to add my agreement to all those people, particularly asthmatics, who are fed up with avoiding smoky atmospheres. I'm asthmatic too and I've had to stop going to some sessions, including - annoyingly - my only local one. Some smokers seem oblivious to the fact that they are currently depriving many of the rest of us of a normal social life. As McGrath points out, they can always get their nicotine fix in some other way, if it's impossible to beat the craving. It's their choice. But they don't have a 'right' to fill everyone else's airways with noxious and deadly chemicals. Arguments stating that there weren't any employment rights in the good old days - and that was somehow OK - just leave me horrified and baffled. I used to smoke myself, but I never would have argued that it was my 'right' to inflict it on other people - I was just blithely ignorant of the harm and unpleasantness I was causing, like most smokers are until they give up.
I'm delighted by the ban. There will no doubt be angry negotiations and it's not going to transform things overnight - but it at least shows that there is a cultural change underway. Thank God...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM

"Smoking nay be bad for both the smoker and the non-smoker but if it's to be totally banned, then it should be followed by a ban on alcohol."

Bullsh•t. Alcohol has indeed been the cause of many a hardship through the years and alcoholism has been a part of the demise of some of my songwriting heroes (townes, gene clark, jim ringer) but if you're sitting next to me downing whiskeys that in itself, assuming you're not driving or getting drunk and whacking me in the head with something, is not harming me, it's "only" damaging just your own liver and life. Meanwhile your second hand smoke is going up my nose and into my lungs, besides making my clothes and hair smell bad...

jpc

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM

Now if Kim Howells had only come down on that and outlawed all canned music instead of live music, how we'd love him.

What's even worse than the jukebox can be when the canned music is controlled from behind the bar. Some jukeboxes have silent tracks you can buy, in which case a whip round could pay for an evening playing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Julie B
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:02 AM

...but despite the effects of smoke, I still loath and despise the sound of the ubiquitous "Thump Thump" juxbox music even more (and Heaven forbid that it be turned off or down while sessions/singarounds take place in the next room. Is it me?!!!
Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Julie B
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

I feel really under the weather today. Woke up with headache, as if I had a hangover, and with sore eyes. Took my a while to realise why. Yesterday I went to two tune sessions - one lunchtime, on evening. Several smokers present at both. So I come home and the smoke is in my clothes, hair, eyes lungs. Roll on festival season so I can nip off to places like the Four Fools in Chorley, held in a school with a non-smoking policy throughout.
Julie B
P.S. Had a great New Year's Eve session at the Red Lion in Bassingbourne (over Cambridge way). Held in non-smoking bar - stayed there until 1.30am but still felt as fresh as a daisy on New Years day.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Orac
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:39 AM

Yippee thats all I can say.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:51 AM

"Bring your glasses to the bar" is a normal enough cry at closing time. And going in to clear the ash-trays and collect the empties isn't the same as spending the whole of youir working life having smoke blown in your face.

If they hadn't gone round knocking the old bars into open plan lay-outs, it'd be an easy enough change to make in most pubs.

It isn't all that long since the expectation was that smoking was something people would do in a place set aside for it, and maybe even wearing a smoking jacket and so forth. Like a lot of innovations, this is another case where in a way it's getting back to old ways that had more sense than people appreciated when they abandoned them.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:41 AM

Smoking Ban in Ireland 2004 - refers to Pubs.

The smoking ban they intend to introduce in Norway, I think by 2006, is total - any public space anywhere in the country.

Liked the reference to the non-peeing end of a swimming pool Frank.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:20 AM

So in these smoking rooms, which are air tight I presume, and of which the doors are never left open for the smoke to escape from it - who collects the empty glasses, performs the filthy job of emptying ash trays and ensures that general order is preserved. I know of many pubs with back rooms that don't have a bar in them, but the staff still have to go in and work there. I also can't see the majority of publicans in this country being well disposed to carrying out the necessary renovations to provide these rooms. I'd say that although it will be impossible to strictly enforce it all the time, a total ban would be preferable to most pub owners in Ireland than installing expensive ventilation equipment and re-constructing the pub.

People are going to have to choose which of their vices are more important to them, and, particularly in this country, I think deserting the pub is unlikely to be the choice of many people. I know some people who already nip outside the pub for a smoke on a regular basis, because what they are smoking is not legal and they don't want to risk eviction from the premesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:07 AM

GUEST guest - nobody is suggesting a ban on smoking, just a ban on smoking in certain buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:17 AM

HURRAH!!! Now I will start saving for that long awaited trip to experience the music in the pubs of Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Boab
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM

Some pubs in my "home town" ---I live in British Columbia---have put a ban on smoking in the main bar, and have constructed a "smoking room" which is off-limits to the staff. As far as I can see there has been no decline in their custom; indeed one of the pubs described is by far the busiest in the area. This may be because they serve good grub in the bar area along with the pints. As a result non-smokers ---like me---- have a real choice. Without such places, we would have a choice--of the Hobson type; either come in and breathe filth or do without a pint and a song/blether with your mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:39 PM

It was amusing (briefly) to see all the patrons standing outside the Starry Plough in Berkeley(California, where a total ban on smoking INSIDE such establishments is currently law). As soon as the band was ready to play (and were done with their smokes) all trooped back inside to continue an evening's enjoyment (drinking and singing and etc.). True, smoker's will adapt. To which I say hurrah! The ability to adapt is crucial to survival.

I smoked for many years. It took me EIGHT years to quit (fits and starts) and finally good old "cold turkey" did the trick. That was back on July 26th, 1975.

I still get an urge to smoke every once and a while.

It is an addiction. NO QUESTION about it. The ban in bars and pubs in California may be unfair to smokers but to those of us who have quit it is a help to stay smoke free and still enjoy a night out.

That said, I think that the ban on smoking in Republic of Ireland pubs is just another way to keep a united Ireland from happening.

I can't imagine that any but the most fanatical of Republicans in the North ever opting for joining the "smokeless 26"!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

Smoking nay be bad for both the smoker and the non-smoker but if it's to be totally banned, then it should be followed by a ban on alcohol.

Drink is the cause of far more deaths than cigarettes. It cause extreme hardship on families and communities alike. So yep ban cigarettes but do likewise to alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM

Agreed.Most clubs are now non-smoking, at least the ones that I play. Maybe that's 'cause the others won't book me! I played two folk clubs recently gross audience over 300 and not a smoker amongst 'em...until you stepped outside for a breath of fresh air in the interval! There they were..guilty..but unbowed. Good banter ensued!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:19 PM

I'm not blaming you Harvey. I just think care needs taking and maybe disucssion before taking no smoking clubs. I believe it was ultimately a small part in the death of Llandudno and the formation of Conwy, of which I was a founder, but by no means a whole story.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:16 PM

Sorry... my time in the resident group there ended about 2 years I think before that. We also were the organisers then but decided to pack in.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM

Okay. Local spat outside my parameters then. Thanks Jon. Hope you're still Rambling!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM

No Harvey, it was beaten by a late announcement - on the night. I had been part of the resisident group for mybe as long as 8 yrs, par of what was called "The Rambling Boys" - pretty rotten but regualr and ensuring at least something happened each week.

The organisers at the time of this knew me and used me most weeks as a floorsinger.

Not being forwarned, etc. was my objection and remained my objection until the club eventaully changed venues.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM

It might well have been me John. I have posters requesting non smoking as do other artists now, because of my asthma. At 59 years of age I can't help it. It's a request, not a ban. If you want the best of my voice, clean air gets it.Glad I was reasonable. Sorry you missed a good night. It was some years ago when the issue was only just being raised I think. However, if what I had to offer was beaten by three or four fags I can't fight against that!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

Maybe in general non smoking in clubs is worth persuing. I don't really know.

I only know what happened in Llandudno and I was very anti.

The tale as I remember it goes went that we had a guest on the night. I think Harvey Andrews though can't be sure who did not want smoking and the decision on the night was taken to ban smoking.

I, a smoker spoke, to the Guest in question, who in fairness was very friendly and reasonable but decided not to go in and was very annoyed that there had been no forwarning of this circumstance or the view that this was to be the way from then on...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:30 PM

Vacuum cleaners don't get asthma.

The point is, it is pretty hard to give up an addiction, but it's not particularly hard to adjust your way of satisfying it.

My father could never keep a pipe alight, he smoked matches as my mother said. And that's another way.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

Pretty semantic McGrath..but okay. However, who's going to do the dusting?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM

Noone is addicted to smoking. Smoking is just a habit and a mannerism. People do get addicted to nicotine, but there are lots of other ways of getting a fix - snuff being the most traditional. And none of them involve imposing the stuff on other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

Greg, as an asthmatic I miss your point totally. I am never locked in   a garage with four or five or even more cars with their engines switched on in a confined space. I understand your basic point, but you can't seriously apply it to a small room, unless you're an addict looking for any excuse for a habit you know is doing you harm. I've just seen a fine human being die of alcoholism and none of his friends could make him quit. He was hugely intelligent but would do anything and use any arguement to avoid facing the fact that he was addicted to a harmful drug. You can't call asthmatics hypocrites. You could try to understand our point of view, as we understand your addiction if you are a smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

That was the point I was making Frankham. The right to smoke doesn''t mean a right to smoke in a room where other people have to breathe it.

In pretty well any bar these days, I suspect, and in any session, most of the people would prefer it if other people weren't smoking. Why should people who feel like smoking take advantage of the tolerance of their companions? It's not exactly difficult to pop out for a smoke. Just a matter of basic good manners really. Live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:07 PM

I'll lsten with interest to the non-drivers who argue for the smoking ban. But if you've got a car, spare us the hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

McGrath, you say that................
A ban on smoking as such is arguably an infringment on human rights,

It is an argument that is made. The infringement might also be the rights of people to breathe clean air. I think if a person wants to ingest poison, they may have the right to do so provided they don't subject others to it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM

I have seen the effects of a similar ban on the main session bar at the National Folk Festival in Canberra.

As far as I can see, a lot of the old hands, who are physically incapable of playing music without a cigarette lit (even if they're not actually puffing on it!), have given up on the big sessions. Some don't even come to the National any more. On the other hand, instead of one monster (mostly Irish) session, there are now a number of smaller sessions going on.

The nett result is that there are the same number of people there, the average age is lower, and there is a far larger range of musical styles catered for.

As a non-smoker, who put up with the smoke in the past for the sake of the music and the singing, I find the current situation far better. I'll be interested to see if any other NFF attendees have similar or different observations.


My guess is that the diehards in Ireland will be having sessions at home or in other private venues, and the bar trade will not go down because different people will be in the pubs. The major loss might be that the younger musicians will not get to hear the range of tunes etc that the old hands know.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vectis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

I am desperately trying to kick the weed but being a real wuss about it. I can't go to a pub and see others smoking without having one myself. I know I'm being a total pillock but that's the way I am. A ban would be helpful to me ... unless I joined the mob at the door of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM

Odd isn't, to see how violent the reaction is against the reasonable efforts to protect the majority's health from the devastating health effects caused by a minority of people with an addiction that can kill and maim so many of the people around them? That people are actually throwing terms around like "human rights" to describe the rights of the addicted smoker?

Why is it that so many here seem to believe that people with such a destructive addiction that clearly impacts the health of everyone around them, should have some special sanctions so they can continue to "enjoy" their addiction? At everyone's expense?

Just bizarre, but that is the nature of culture and tradition, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM

A ban on smoking as such is arguably an infringment on human rights, whether it is tobacco or cannabis. A ban on smoking it in a particular room or rooms is quite another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:57 PM

In terms of the convention of human rights it is not that their right to kill themselves is being arbitrarily and unnecessarily restricted but rather that their "right " to inflict and impose their choice on others is being quite reasonably resticted.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vindelis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM

A good extractor fan would also be essential. Entering a room that is blue with tobbaco smoke is no fun. Bin there, seen it, got the tee-shirt etc.... (No I never have dun it - just didn't like the smell).

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM

Non-smoking section in a room, agreed that is a bit of a nonsence, since the smoke doesn't read the noitices even if the smokers do. A smoking room with a door on it that makes a lot sense, and is easy enough to organise. They'd just have to put back the walls and the doors they've been so busy knocking down.

Why should good manners be such a big deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: vindelis
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:18 PM

I know I have read about Irish publicans creating no-smoking areas, or banning smoking, before. The result on each occaision was that people voted with their feet and took their custom elsewhere. A total ban? As a non-smoker it would be wonderful to be able to go out for the evening and not come home smelling like a stale ash-tray. The Smokers' problem, is that like Folkies, they are now a 'Political Minority' and therefore safe to thrash. How long before they start looking at the Convention of Human Rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:43 PM

A non-smoking section in a restaurant or bar is the same as a non-peeing section in a swimming pool. :)

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: TonyK
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:43 AM

I think the smokers would adapt to the ban. Look at all the smokers who stand out in the freezing rain to smoke now. Addiction makes people adapt because they have little or no choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM

From a fellow Asthma sufferer, JudeL, all I can add is : hear! hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM

"Non-smokers don't drink as much" ? Where-ever did you get that idea? Believe me there are plenty of us who enjoy our pints but don't stay as long as we might because the smoke drives us away.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM

It's easier to drink more if your hands aren't cluttered up with a cigarette.

Thinking around the people I know, I don't think there's any particular tendency for the non-smokers to drink less. What makes the difference is if you're the one driving.

Irish ingenuity being what it is, if this comes into law there'll be a move away from the single bar to one where there's a separate smoking room, which won't have bar-staff working in it. And anything that breaks pubs up into rooms that way is a good thing I'd say. So long as they don't make the smoking room the session room as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM

I too suffer from asthma and judging by the number of people who offered me their own inhaler when I had an attack and couldn't find mine so are a lot of others. For me being in a smoke filled room is not just unpleasant but can be actively dangerous. Smokers are in the minority but they impose their choice on evryone. Even one person chain smoking in a room (whether or not it has ventilation) can still render that room unpleasant or even dangerous for everyone else in that room. I keep hearing about the smoker's "right" to choice but unfortunately that individual by smoking removes the rights of every other person to choose not to smoke. While there may be a few people who choose to stay at home if they are not allowed to smoke in pubs since they are a minority and having smoke free pubs would encourage those who currently avoid such places to go there again I believe that after a short time of re-adjustment the pubs will end up with an even bigger customer base. I know I have a vested interest, because there are places where I have been forced to leave because I could not breathe, which if they were smoke free I could then go, but as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the British Government stop being cowards and enact similar legislation for us over here the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Marc
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM

The problem with the theory that nonsmoking customers will replace the smokers. Is by and large the nonsmoking population tend to be a more health conscious group than smokers. a larger percentage of them are likely to have one or two, or even worst tea or soft drinks. The hard drinker who is prone to an evening of pints tends to be more tolerant of smokers. All of the nonsmokers who have posted thus far have said that they'd stop back for the occasional pint. This won't keep the pub open, the pub owner needs people who are capable of sitting and drinking for hours. I've seen a few local bars hear in Ct., USA, voluntarily go smoke free, and invariably they've gone back. Folks really don.t like to walk away from their drink to stand in the rain for a fag. And the people that replaced them just don't drink as much. By the way, does anyone know how this experiment is working in NYC?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:20 AM

I don't particularly mind playing in a smoky room. What I loathe is when someone puts a fag down to burn away in the ashtray, without quenching it first. At least when they are smoking properly the worst gunge gets filtered out and stays in their lungs. And I hate the smell on my clothes when I get home.

If you have to smoke, a pipe's a much less anti-social way of doing it, I alwasy think. But snuff is better. A snuff is as good as a feast, as they almost say.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jimmy C
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM

being a non smoker for many years now, I can see this ban working with no effect on a pub's revenue, at least in the long run.. The smoking customers will just be replaced by non-smoking customers who have been more or less forced to stay home and drink rather that go to a smoky smelly pub. There will be a transitional period of course but everyone will survive and be better off because of it. With more and more people kicking the habit it stands to reason to attract that growing percentage of the market. I was in a restaurant in Memphis, that was in fact 2 restaurants   side by side, one for smokers and one for non-smokers, but the smoking part had non-smoking staff I am sure. Maybe there may have to be an allowance to establish smokers pubs to operate next door or close to a non-smokers pub. What is a concern is the number of young people, especially teenage girls who are taking up the habit. I used to hate playing in a smoky atmosphere once I gave tobacco up, but when I smoked it did not bother me at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM

Hmmm ! -

1/. Secondary Exposure to Asbestos is a Legal and Medical fact.

2/. Smoking underground, or the possesion underground of smoking materials has been a criminal offence (in the UK0 for many years.

3/. Factory regulations have been more concerned with the loss of production rather than safty of the workforce.

And on a lighter note - Doe anyone remember the old joke.

"Why has cigaette advertising been banned in Ireland ?"

"The slogan 'Light up an Embassy' was felt to be provocative !"

Gareth