BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM

I hope it bring people back to the much less antisocial and older tradition of taking snuff.

I've never understood why it hasn't taken off once again in the modern world, what with all the non-smoking rules on trains and in offices and so forth. Snuff-takers don't need to worry about it. (Well you gte some funny look from people who aren't used to it, and maybe misunderstand what that brown stuff is that you're snuffing.)

You don't get secondary snuffing. (And it doesn't get to your lungs even if it's you taking the snuff. All right, it's probably doing your nose no good at all...)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

My apologies for not reading most of the posts to this thread, thereby possibly repeating something (which may bear repeating).

Smoking should not be allowed in any enclosed public space. If you want to allow smokers to "participate" in a venue such as a pub, a separately ventilated space should be provided with the entertainment piped in via sound system. If you want to have a pub where smoking is allowed, subject admittance to membership, and subject the membership to the appropriate waivers. It's not rocket science. As far as those who oppose, c'mon, use those last few brain cells wisely.

I ask people who visit my house if they mind if I smoke. After all, I AM a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM

(snip) people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries. There were no do gooders banning mines or paint factories.


Quite true, but... if someone chooses to work as a collier, I am not going to pick up "second hand black lung." Here in Pennsylvania, I would frequent the bar (our equiv. of a pub, more or less) more readily if I didn't leave reeking of smoke.

But I do know what you mean about government's selective enforcement of laws designed to save us from ourselves... reminds me a little of the motorcycle helmet controversies here, too.

jim

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:55 PM

No smoke!
No PELs!
Let's emigrate!

(not so sure about the beer though)
(OK there's Guinness - at a price!)

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: harvey andrews
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:40 PM

I wish they'd do this in England! As an asthmatic I haven't had a night out in a pub for years, it's just too unpleasant. I have friends who also don't go to pubs because of smoke problems. They will replace the missing smokers.Folk clubs I've been working in the last few years have found the audience benefits and increases in number where smoking has been stopped.Many people on my mailing list won't go to a pub folk club and will only come when I'm working arts centre, theatres or village halls. It seems one group will suffer from this ban and one group will benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

Have a chat with a non-smoking bar worker and you will find as I have that they are in total agreement with a ban on smoking.
It`s too bad that it will be almost impossible to enforce. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

I would like to see the following sorces of pollution banned

All cars in urban areas with public transit. All SUV's, snowmobiles and ATV's, these are ecologicaly disastrous. Wood stoves, fireplaces, coal burning homes and factories.Perfumes, deodorants,insecticides, pesticides, roses, hay, goldenrod, scented candles, portable radios,air conditioners and oh yes, cigarettes. Now THAT would make me feel that we care about pollution. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Smoking YUK!!!!!!!!
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

Much as I find smoking not only injurious to my health and dislike it in its entirety.....I cannot see how Irish publicans are going to enforce this most fascinating piece of European legislature...most are chain smokers themselves...Do nothing to stop their clients drinking them into an early grave and destroying all possibility of a normal family life in front of their very own eyes..and have scant regard for the observence opening hours..a small smoking room needs to be provided that does not emit fumes into the rest of the bar as an intermidiate measure..Ireland is way behind other European countries in its widespread addiction to nicotine.. small children can be seen openly smoking on the street.and lets not mention alcahol dependemce...whole families seem to communaly drink themselves into the undertakers....I'm afraid blanket ban will just not work without widespread education of the dangers and perhaps the stronger use of stigmatisation of the suicidal habit of nicotine addiction and alcahol
dependency....I am London Irish myself and love a good drinking session myself occassionaly,I love Ireland,but am often disgusted by how so many people in the old countries blind addiction to these diabolical vices..

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,James
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Ten years ago a mine explosion in Nova Scotia killed dozens of miners because no one gave a damn, especially the government. Anyone who thinks that these bans have anything to do with politicans caring about working people is kidding themselves.
Where I live the three major sources of revenue for the "caring Government" are gambling ,booze anf smokes. They banned smoking bars, liquor revunue went down so they simply increased the tax on smokes. This anti smoking thing is so hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

"Any jurisdiction that has banned smoking in pubs has seen many pubs close."

As far as I know, that's only when there's an alternative right down the street... A total ban on the other hand...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

I understand who the law is meant to help. I agree that no one should have to work in smoke filled bars. However, this can be achieved without banning smoking entirely. I do not believe that smokers will huddle round the door of the Pub, they will go home. Any jurisdiction that has banned smoking in pubs has seen many pubs close.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM

"people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries"

And you'll notice that, especially in the last 50 or so years, safety has become a MAJOR issue... Because now people know better than to not "give a shite"

It's not the 'poor buggers' with their 'pint and a puff' that concerns me... It's the barstaff who are made to work in an environment with air that'd knock a buzzard of a sh!t-wagon... That's who this law is intended to help...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

The proposed ban is not to protect the health of the non-smokers, but that of the bar staff. Governments have a duty to ensure the Health and safety of workers is protected. If this thread had been about the pub owners insisting that bar staff worked in an environment contaminated by asbestos for example, I'm sure a lot of people would respond saying that the workers health should be protected.

Previous experiments of this kind in Ireland have failed, but in those cases there was another pub down the road where you could smoke, so the people went there instead. It will be a different situation where smoking in all pubs is banned. I expect that from next year onwards, we will be seeing little huddles of smokers in the doorway of the pub grabbing a smoke before going back to their pint, pretty much in the same way as you see people congregating in the doorways of Office blocks at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

clinton,

don't really tink the irish would swallow alcohol being banned in their pubs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:19 PM

"150 bar staff die in irelans each year, because of customers smoking", how does he know this, i think he is just making it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM

My Dear mr. Hammond people have worked down mines and in dangerous locations for centuries. There were no do gooders banning mines or paint factories. In fact no gave a shite. Nor does anyone wish to ban parking lots at pubs on account of cars being the cause of the most noxious pollutants. If you wish to avaid pollution from cigarettes..avaid cigarettes..that is what I do. Common sense os so uncommon. Let the poor buggers have a pint and a puff.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

I agree with guest. ideally there should be two rooms in pubs, one for smokers, one for non-smokers.but to make it illegal is stupid, it will just make people stay at home. i smoke if i went to pub, and was told not to smoke there, i would not go back again.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

and alcohol while yer at it Mr. Happy...

And driving...

And getting out of bed...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

tobacco products should all be on the dangerous substances list along with crack, smack,etc

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:10 PM

Mr. Happy; I think you know what I meant. It was a typo, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

I would not go to the Pub if I could not have a pint and a cig. I also agree that non smokers should have places where they can. If Pub owners wish to smoke free I think that would be great. If they wish to cater to a clientele who smokes, they should be able to do that. Total bans seem to be heavyhanded and one sided.
   I go out with friends once a week to have a beer, a smoke and hear some music. All of my pals smoke, we would simply go home, have a beer, a smoke and listen to cds..cheaper but not as much fun. I think this move would hurt Pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

If the poisions coming off the end of a lit cigarette were present in the air of a mine-shaft, or a factory floor, no one would be allowed to work there!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Declan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

The intention announced yesterday is for a total ban in every workplace, including Pubs, which are the workplace of the bar staff. As APC suggests although the workers (or at least their Unions) are happy the publicans are not. The Vintners groups (as you'd expect in Ireland there are at least two of them) are not happy and they do form a powerful lobby. The effective date is 1 January next which allows for the necessary legislation to be passed, and it wouldn't surprise me too much if there was a fudge on this.

As a non-smoker it seems like a good idea to me, but obviously smokers have a different view. Some say they would stop going to the pub to drink altogether if they are not allowed to smoke, but I don't know if this would be the case in practice. It will be interesting to see if this legislation does emerge and whether or to what extent it will be enforced. Many public spaces in Ireland have been smoke free for a number of years, most people observe this, but there are usually a few rogue smokers around the place who ignore this.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

pun?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

It should be up to Pun owners how they run pubs. I wish the gov. would mind it's own bloody business.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

As I understand it, the Government's intention was to ban smoking while meals are being served. The bar staff union made it a workplace issue, but I didn't think they had won their case for a total ban. There are surely too many pub owners moonlighting as TDs (Members of Parliament) for that to happen.

Subject: BS: Smoking ban in Ireland 2004
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

Hi Comhaltas and Irish music enthusiasts. This should stir up interest. I am in favor.

Frank
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Ireland to Eliminate Smoking in Pubs, Clubs
Parts excepted from Associated Press
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer

DUBLIN, Ireland - A once unthinkable change is coming to one of the social hubs of Ireland: The pub is going smoke-free.

The government said Thursday that it will ban smoking from all workplaces including pubs, where a pint and a cigarette have long gone hand in hand. "This ban will mean a massive cultural change for people all around this country," said Health Minister Michael Martin in announcing the new rules.

In fact, the change is so significant that the government has given the public 11 months notice before enforcing the ban: the new law takes effect Jan. 1, 2004.

In announcing the ban, Martin released a study that links second-hand smoke to cancer and heart disease in workplaces. "I'm doing this because, as this report makes inescapably clear, I have no choice," he said.

Martin said the health department surveyed opinion among Ireland's 3.8 million people, about 70 percent of whom don't smoke, and decided that designating no smoking areas within pubs simply wouldn't work.

"The majority — the overwhelming majority — have said to me and to the department: Go the whole way. The majority are in favor of an all-out ban," he said.

Maureen Mulvihill, promotions manager at the Irish Heart Foundation, said thousands of nonsmokers like her had felt uncomfortable in pubs. "It's surprising news," she said, "but it's only possible because of the drastic change in public opinion."

Martin has already raised the legal age for buying cigarettes from 16 to 18; outlawed tobacco ads in newspapers and magazines; and barred tobacco companies from sponsoring events.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland, representing about 6,000 pubs, vowed to fight the ban, which it called "unworkable, untenable and unenforceable." It insisted that better ventilation was a reasonable alternative, but Martin said that would be insufficient.

Pubs that flout the ban would be fined, he said, without specifying the amounts.

Mandate, the union representing pub employees, supported a ban, citing research claiming an estimated 150 bar staff in Ireland die prematurely each year because of second-hand smoke.

Barmen said the change would be for the best.

"I think it's a good idea," said Damian Ryan, assistant manager at Doheny and Nesbitts, a favorite watering hole for politicians just around the corner from parliament. "The reason above all that people come to a pub is to meet people and chat. They don't need a cigarette for that."