BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?

Subject: BS: Freedom to proteset in the UK ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:29 PM

I don'y usually take much interest in politics, as i reckon most politicians are bunch of lying scumbags.I meant to post this yesterday but i was busy all day and forgot, anyway=

A protest against war with Iraq was planned, [I think for Saturday), at Hyde Park, London, BUT, Jessa Jowells has banned the protest because, and I quote "It might damage the grass"!, what a load of crap, I thought this was a free country, and we had a right to peaceful protest! or is that only if you are not protesting about President Tony's war plans? I had no intention of going to this proteset march anyway, but the fact that it has been banned pisses me off, I heard this on BBC Radio 4 at 5pm yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to proteset in the UK ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:31 PM

i spelled protest wrong, but you know what i mean.john

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: mooman
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:30 AM

I believe she has changed her mind now and given the go-ahead John (at least that's what the BBC website says!)

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:34 AM

The Times

Jowell lifts her ban on Hyde Park peace rally
By Lewis Smith

A BAN on anti-war protesters using Hyde Park for a rally was reversed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport yesterday.
The move by Tessa Jowell came after efforts failed to find another venue big enough for the event in Central London on February 15.

Organisers of the Stop the War rally, who say that the protest is expected to attract half a million people, said that the decision was the only sensible option.

Lindsey German, a spokeswoman for the rally, said that the move was a political victory for protesters against the Government, which, she said, wanted to conceal the level of public opposition to military action in Iraq.

Concerns remain about the safety of so many protesters congregating in the park during winter, when wet conditions are likely to turn the grass into a quagmire.

Ms Jowell had wanted the rally held in Trafalgar Square, but was told by the Mayor of London that it was too small. Police objected to the use of The Mall because of security concerns about Buckingham Palace and other buildings near by and because of difficulties in dispersing so many people from the area after dark.

Announcing the decision, Ms Jowell urged organisers to work with police and the Royal Parks to ensure that nobody was hurt.

The rally is being organised by the Stop the War Coalition, CND and the Muslim Association of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:14 AM

Who is planning to come?

I gather the idea is to have twio converging marches, one starting from Gower Street, one from the Embankment. I'd reckon the Embankment one would be a more interesting route.

Here is the website of Stop the War, which is coordinating it. Details and links for lots of other events, some sound promising.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:06 AM

I've signed up for this - there are buses running from most city centres, Huddersfield included.

Show these bloody MPs that we have our own voice and that we are prepared to use it. I won't be voting Labour again after this debacle. I wrote to my MP on this and received a depersonalised standard letter in return which just confirmed my believe that she is getting hundreds of protest letters. Keep it up folks.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Grab
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:11 AM

John, it wasn't banned if Jowell was suggesting holding it in the Mall or Traf Square instead. I mean, "No you can't do this in Hyde Park where there aren't many people, you'll have to go and protest in the middle of the City where everyone is" - shit, ain't that just dreadful for the poor darlings?! Loads of concealment, shouldn't be allowed, police state, up the revolution, wibble wibble...

Sounds like lying scumbags are not limited to the pro-war side.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM

The suggestion that it might be in the Mall's wasn't Tessa Jowells' so far as I know - it was more a question of her being told "Well, if Hyde Park is out, would you rather half a million protestors outside Buckingham Palace in the Mall. And that didn't seem such a good idea. Crowds in the Mall are supposed to be saying "Gawd Save the Queen" not "Chuck out the Prime Minister".

My feeling is that she had the bright notion of using the time of year and the state of the grass as an excuse to ban it from Hyde Park in the hope it might not happen (Trafalgar Square being ruled out because of extensive roadworks). Remember, this is Kim Howells' boss!

Best suggestion I heard to minimise damage was that all the people on the march should make a point of bringing some grass seed and dropping it around in the park. (That's grass as in lawns...)

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: treewind
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:31 AM

What is interesting, though, is that this was about size.

The implication is that the government didn't think it would be a big protest, and had to be persuaded that there were more people against their policy than they might like to believe.

That, in itself, is a sort of message.

My first reaction to the news was: sod the damage to the grass, that's nothing compared to the mess they're going to make in Iraq if they get their bloodthirsty way.

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM

I'd read it the other way, treewind, they thought it was going to be a very big one, and were hoping they might have found a way of averting it. Not averting the wat, averting the demo.

I don't think of the government as being bloodthirsty - it feels more like they've lost control, and are sliding into disaster, paralysed. Like when a car hits a patch of black ice.

Or maybe like the Titanic - holed below the waterline, and walking around in the deck looking up at the iceberg. Or like when someone takes a massive overdose of paracetamol and wakes up in hospital, and there's nothing to do but wait to die, because there's nothing to be done to save them.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

You could of course, believe the government on this.

From todays Independent:

Originally, the Royal Parks Agency banned the rally in central London on 15 February, arguing that the soil would be too wet to cope with so many people and that there would be a safety risk as protesters left in the dark.

But Tessa Jowell, the Secretary of State for Culture Media and Sport, said yesterday that she had given the go-ahead for the protest after failing to find a better venue. Extra lighting will be installed, and marchers' arrival and departure times will be staggered.

Ms Jowell said: "The right ... to organise and take part in peaceful marches and rallies has never been questioned. The issue has only ever been to find a venue that is as safe as possible."

And that seems reasonable enough to me.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:36 PM

You could of course, believe the government on this.

True, that's always an option on everything all governments say and do.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: nager
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM

They are worried about the grass and a few people maybe getting hurt.
Why aren't they so worried about the thousands of people liley to die in a war?

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: GUEST,HelenJ
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:55 PM

Being worried about the grass would be fair enough - but they aren't worried about that, or they wouldn't have hired out a large section of the park for a huge Star Trek exhibition (great fun actually). They are worried about having people in large numbers protest against the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM

John from Hull,

you may spell all common words like 'protest' as you like and I don't give a damn, but please put a bit more of effort in spelling key words like names correctly. You spelling both the first and the last name of the secretary incorrectly has cost me a couple of minutes. Only after Shambles' post I realised I had no fair chance to do a web search on the secretary. This is not your local pub here where everybody knows the secretary however she is spelled. This here is the whole world and some people like me may have never heard of Ms. Jowell before. Thank you.

Beside that rant, Ed's post seems the most convincing to me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:36 PM

Wolfgang-It was a mistake, have you never madfe a spelling mistake? It must have "cost" you another couple of minutes to write that post out!, if my spelling bothers you that much, then just ingore my messages.john

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:08 PM

I heard the fuss, but I guess I don't really see the bug anti-protest message from the government. Wasn't there another big event that was refused for Hyde Park in December, for the same reason? I think that many folks will utterly destroy the wet grass -- grass vs. iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM

We have one planned in New York for next Saturday and the authoritiies have decided thatn theydon't like the planned march route so they are holding back issuing a permit! Hmmmm? Seems like the same thing is going on on both sides ot the pond.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:44 PM

Yep, Bobert -- except this time the organizers are suing NYC for abridging their 1st Amendment rights. The permit was refused outright; in it's place they were offered a too-small plaza for a stationary rally. Something about traffic congestion. Better keep that in mind next time the Irish-Americans or Yankees want to hold a parade :)

Good lord, I don't know what happened to my earlier post... the last half is missing. Oh well, must not have been very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:22 AM

"The right ... to organise and take part in peaceful marches and rallies has never been questioned. The issue has only ever been to find a venue that is as safe as possible."

Well pointed out Ed.

Upshot of it all seems to be that the "Freedom to protest in the UK" is alive and well and functioning perfectly - all else is pointless chatter.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:37 AM

I don't think there is anything pointless about asking whether anyone else from the Mudcat is going to the march in London, or to any other numerous others that are taking place on Fevruary 15th all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

Quite agree Kevin, such dialogue on this thread actually proves what Guest Ed and myself contend - that the "Freedom to protest in the UK" is alive and well and functioning perfectly, with no ones rights being infringed or trampled into the mud. No wicked machinations on the part of government to divert the people from doing what each individual conscience demands - We have the benefit of living in a democratic society.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM

Well done Kevin - I confirm that I will be exercising my right of protest on that day.

I will be protesting about all the, in Lenin's words "Useful Idiots" who are, defacto, supporting the murderous regimes in Iraq and elswhere, and making the certainty of an armed conflict in Iraq certain.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM

Any chance Tessa was just being a good environmentalist?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom to protest in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Have a nice day, Gareth.

I believe that this war will greatly increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks all over the world, and will probably result in even more equally murderous regimes in many countries, most likely including Iraq. And I hope I'm wrong.

In a way what has happened over all this is very much a continuation of September 11th. On September 11th Al Qaida, or whoever was responsible, made use of American civilian technology to cause devastation and to set up a conflict between America and its client states, and the Islamic world. A conflict that the vast mass of people on both sides had no desire for at all.

In the same way it is now making use of American military technology to bring about devastation on a vastly greater scale, and to deepen that conflict into something that is likely to dominate our lives for the foreseeable future.

I imagine the architects of September 11th must certainly number the people who have brought about this impending conflict as "useful idiots".