BS: In support of our servicemen and women..

Subject: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

I wanted to let any Mudcatters who are (or have loved ones who are) servicemen or women involved in the looming conflict know that you're in our prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM

I have 2 nephews, a niece, and 2 children (all 19 & 20 years old) of our closest family friends, either in the Gulf or on their way.

While I appreciate your prayers, I would ask you also do all you can in your power to prevent this war, ie write to your congressional representatives, the president, and talk to everyone you can about doing all they can to prevent this war--your church, civic organizations you may belong to, your workplace, etc. and ask people what they are doing to prevent this war from happening, and bringing our children home safely.

That would make me feel even better.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:14 PM

GUEST... I have a cousin with whom I am very close in the gulf and a friend on the way. None of them/us WANT the war to occur, but they are prepared to do their job and that is what I was offering up in prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Prayers from this corner of the ocean. I would go in one of their places if I could, but they are strong and young and skilled. Someone once said we never realize how much of our freedom rests on the shoulders of the 19 year olds. mg

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: TIA
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:33 PM

I am proud of all of them, and hope that they all come home safe and sound. I hope our leaders do everything they can to make sure they return whole.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:34 PM

Beccy, if you can't accept my pleas, then how sincere are you really? You are willing to pray for these kids, but not do anything to prevent this war from happening, and bring them home?

Not one of the 5 kids I know that have all shipped out since Christmas (when we last saw all of them), wanted to go to the Gulf. Not one. They were all terrified, and wishing they hadn't joined at all. They all joined out of a false patriotic euphoria in the wake of 9/11 (recruiters were busy last year).

Two of the kids actually told their parents they felt they were entrapped--pressured to join by recruiters. One of those two kids enlisted without telling their parents, knowing the parents would try and talk him out of it--he joined as a sort of petty teen rebellion, out of anger, without realizing what the true consequences of his actions would be.

Sorry, but I don't support this so-called mission. I love and support all those kids, but I sure as hell don't support what they are doing. I'll support the individuals, but I'm not supporting the militarists.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

My wife and I alternate days in leading our morning prayer sessions but both of us have been asking God to be with our servicemen and their families. We also pray that God will speak a little louder in the hearts of those who have become so hardened off to God's will that these people will open their hearts to what HE wants of them. Now, since we are discussing prayer. I would also ask those of Faith to take a moment to ask God to be with the Iraqi people who are in danger of being killed and their loved ones as well. The pain of loss or injury is equally great among our adversaries and we are all children of God.

And lastly, I do not mean this to sound confrontational because it is not intended to be but the God I know and love takes no ones side in a war.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: TIA
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:42 PM

Ditto...despite the rantings of Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly et al., it IS possible to support our troops without supporting the bastard who is marching them off to...?

To all our people in the military -- do what you must to come home safely. We will cheer you on arrival.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:53 PM

Flame me all you want, GUEST... I was not being confrontational- I was simply offering these people up in prayer. Of course I pray the war does not happen. This is not the thread where I am discussing the case for or against war. You can check out my other postings if you want to take up this discussion elsewhere. I wanted a thread that simply said I was praying for all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

I would also like to suggest a third way--refuse to report for duty. Refuse to go. And try and organize your fellow soldiers to do the same, in protest to this war. Counsel your friends and relatives not to enlist, not to support the war. Speak out against the war. Keep thinking about the Iraqi people, as Bobert says.

The most heart breaking aspect of visiting with the kids over Christmas, was their awareness that they were being told they would have to kill people they knew were guilty of nothing more than being Iraqis, living in Iraq.

That is a horrible, horrible thing to make our children do. We all know what that did to the veterans of other wars. I work with a teacher who is a vet of the first Gulf War. He is counseling his students not to join the military, and I often see him and his family at area anti-war rallies.

I am praying like hell and supporting those I know and love who may end up fighting (only 3 of our kids would be on the front lines). They all know we love them no matter what. But it is the "no matter what" I don't want anyone to have to live with for the rest of their lives. Not our troops, not Saddam's troops, and not the innocent Iraqis caught between the two. And I'm praying hardest for George Bush and Saddam Hussein, BTW.

They need more than just our prayers. They need us to stand up and speak out against this war.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 05:59 PM

The prayers will be felt and understood by those who need them.

I have several friends (mostly Marines) who have a different outlook on this thing, and can't wait for it to start. One has painted "Allah is Pissed" in Arabic on the side of his command Hummer. Another said he wants the Iraqis to burn another American flag in front of him; says he will shoot low, so they're still alive when he pours the gas on them. Saw a bumper sticker in Martinsburg today, says "Iraq First, Then France." Another has pasted the pictures from Life magazine of the people jumping out of the World Trade Towers on the inside of his Bradley with another popular bumper sticker, "Muslim Terrorists Should be Judged Only by God, We Intend to Arrange the Meeting".

West Virginia is sending their best. They've said their prayers, comforted their wives and children, and going to show the Arab world the meaning of "Jihad".

And the only tears I feel, even as I write this, is when I think, "God, I wish I could go with them..."

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

Well, in principle the Mudcat is a global community. That means "our" means servicemen and women everywhere, including Iraq.

And I join in hoping the best for all of them. None of them had any share in making this happen, if it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

Yeah, killing people really cheers some of you macho types right up, I can tell. Feeling nostalgic for "kill 'em all, let God sort them out" there, eh Claymore?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:15 PM

I have received word that the National Guard unit with which I was activated in 1968 (and the unit subsequently went to Vietnam) has been activated. These are my former neighbors and current relatives.

Like Lincoln, when he was in the House of Representatives during the Mexican War, I will do all in my power to support the troops -- and like Lincoln, I cannot support this War.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Older Eyes
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM

Oh Beccy, if it was only that simple. It isn't though. The vast majority of the world think that WE are the insane purveyors of weapons of mass destruction. Despite all the jokes about the French being disloyal and stupid, I'm afraid it's George Bush who is seen as a cruel and unfunny joke. We've blackmailed some countries into APPEARING to be our allies, but I think we know how legit that alliance is. Respected Black people seem horrified at what Colin Powell and Condaleesa Rice are condoning, and there's even talk of keeping young American casualties OFF the nightly TV screens by having 'crematoria' over there in the desert!

This is NOT WW II, it is much more like Vietnam, and it is absolutely unneccessary. Sanctions could have a much greater effect. I'm afraid if you're looking for a simple "go git 'em boys" kind of prayer, it won't happen. Perhaps those folks who are only capable of seeing things like this this in the simplest of terms possible will feel that everything's going the way it should, but The prayers and endless singing of "Amazing Grace" will come later.

Older eyes

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: nutty
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:22 PM

My prayers are that the politicians (on both sides) will listen to the voice of reason.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Peg
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:26 PM

Claymore; those Marine "buds" of yours sound like sick fuckers...I'm not sure such trigger-happy morons should be allowed to wieldd weapons in combat.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM

We have one son on a fast-attack sub, tending its powerplant. He hasn't returned a call for a couple of days, and may be out to sea already. I'd rather have him out there, to tell you the truth-- he's based at Pearl Harbor.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

And yet Peg, I hope the Iraqis are thinking the same thing (whatever "wieldd" means...).

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

Peg:

I'm with you. I remember the words of a retired Army Sargent who was a drill sargent at the military school I attended: "If I was ordered to shoot my mother, and my father and all my brothers and sisters, I'd do it without a thought!"

Things like that kind of stick in a 17 year olds head and never go away.

There does seem to be a de-humanization that does occur in many folks who have been in the military. But its not everyone that serves. My best male friend is an ex-Marine who fought in Vietnam and is now a very peaceful person, with no desire to kill anyone. My cousin, who also is an ex-Marine (he say's there is no such thing as an *ex*Marine) got his butt blown up pretty good in Vietnam and lost one leg is like Claymore. He'd go in heartbeat.

No rhyme or reason.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: harvey andrews
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

All the invocations of God could just as equally come from the perceived enemy. Humanity has fought for ever over which God is the right one.Millions have died for their God. Prayed to their God and been defeated,destroyed, eradicated.The victors always say it proves their God is the right God.Their God heard their prayers.Then they to are defeated, destroyed, eradicated, their prayers unheard. It's been going on for thousands of years.And here we are with all our knowledge of the past with two sides saying the same prayers and defending the same deeds in the name of a God. Does humanity progress on any level except technology?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: toadfrog
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

No, Harvey. I sure don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

And then there are Marines like my uncle who killed so many, by order, in WWII, that he was so haunted by it and the shrapnel he carried close to his heart which could have killed him at any moment according to the docs, that he finally killed himself with a gun after many, many years of pain, nightmares, and alcoholism.

These kids our rogue government will send to war don't have a fucking clue what they will be ordered to do. It is sickening to hear them on the news and elsewhere bragging about how "this is what we were trained to do. Now we can't wait to go do it!"

Yes, my thoughts go out to those who are in the war, but so do they go out to ALL of life on this planet as we are all related! Sorry, Beccy, for the rant.

Mitakuye Oyasin,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:27 PM

Someone -- I don't remember who, but a noted historian -- was asked back in the '30s to write a define "civilization" in fifty words or less. He responded that civilization was like a beautiful city, sitting next to a river down which always flowed a trickle of blood; sometimes, he added, the river overflows. Whatever company asked him to write it didn't use it in the ad campaign they had planned....

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 09:44 PM

Even though I know drawing attention to this article may be considered by some to be quite controversial, even provocative, I will still suggest people posting to this thread, have a look at this article reprinted at the Common Dreams website. It is quite relevant to this thread.

It begins with this:

Published on Sunday, February 9, 2003 by the Boulder Daily Camera

Support the Troops? Why?
by Clay Evans

Imagine that you live in Nazi Germany, but you and your friends oppose the government, which possesses the mightiest military force in Europe, perhaps the world.

Now Adolf Hitler rumbles ominously about war. You know that the likely first targets of attack — places like Poland and Luxumbourg — pose no immediate threat to your security. You oppose further aggression. But on Sept. 1, 1939, tinny radio broadcasts announce a German invasion of hapless Poland, whose piteous soldiers try to fight Panzer divisions with mounted cavalry.

Oh, well. Time to "support the troops" and lay aside your religious, moral and practical convictions. War has begun!

Got a problem with that?

You can read the rest of it here:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0209-01.htm

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:16 PM

Damned.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM

Yes, in some ways you should support troops conscripted or coerced into doing very bad things. You should provide medical care for them, and food, and re-orientation. Some might need to be locked up forever..I don't know. But they still deserve some humane treatment. Most of the troops are just people who happen to be born on the wrong side of the river. Best not to be too righteous folks...there are few among us who could resist the sort of threats that these troops were under if they did not comply..threats not just to themselves but their families. I know that I personally could stand imprisonment; I know I could not withstand torture for very long. mg

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:33 PM

I'm not at all sure this war will be a clean war and a fast one as many think. I believe all the young idealistic soldiers in the Civil War were commonly refered to as 'cannon fodder' by the more experienced ones. By the way, what are the ones that are allergic to Atropine supposed to do? Yeah, I guess I'll pray for them. Flame me if you want, I'll also pray for the Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 08:59 AM

Good grief- people. I just wanted to tell the young men and women that I was thinking of them. Why a great many of you need to turn this into a "why Beccy is diluded-fest" I don't know. Like I said, if you want to take me up on a discussion of yea or nay on the war- bully for you, but please do it on another thread.
Some things are just as simple as their presentation. This is one.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: JedMarum
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM

A simple wish, a simple prayer Beccy - too bad it is not allowed at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:29 AM

Beccy, I said that I support "the trooops", not just "our" troops. The grunt, the ground-pounder, the dogface, the gravel-cruncher -- whatever you can him or her -- isnt' their government. Your wish is simple, and I agree. Politicizing is fine (albeit boring at times), but please, not here.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:42 AM

It's all politics in the end, the politics of industrial religion as much as the politics of industrial governments. Sitting on a thread and making it stick right on a narrow topic can be a thankless task.

One hopes for unconditional love from close family members and dear friends; from all others, it IS conditional. And layering war into the question of love is very complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

They are all "our troops", whatever side they are on.

And supporting them means doing what we can to avoid them getting killed, and killing other people, and in refusing to do things that are wrong, or turn them into people like that Drill Sergeant Bobert mentioned - "If I was ordered to shoot my mother, and my father and all my brothers and sisters, I'd do it without a thought!"

And it means not forgetting them or turning our heads from them if they come back damaged inside or out.

It can still be stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM

Support the troops...our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, literally and metaphorically.

Oppose the war (if there is a war) if you wish to do so. This is still a free country, regardless of the opinions of a few people, and is likely to remain one.

If you choose to exercise your right to demonstrate, please don't do it outside the gates of a military base....this is where the families of those deploying live and they don't need the extra grief. Go to the the offices of the politicians and make your opinions heard. That's why Federal Buildings were built with that big patio outside.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:17 AM

Yes, Beccy, your request is a simple one. Unfortunately you have come up against those for whom it is not possible to allow this. Happened before when we tried to ask folks to take a few moments and just remember those who lost their lives defending what they believed to be their way of life. The GUEST who goes by many names, but I just call her MATRIOT, just can't let folks have that. She is able to distinguish the fact that we aren't supporting war, just asking that we pray for the young ones. But she chooses to be disruptive. She can't help herself, as she couldn't here. My best advice is to just ignore her. That way she deludes herself into thinking she won something, while we really are just ignoring the posts.

I will absolutely pray for the safe return of these young ones. And I will pray for peace instead of war, for wisdom instead of brashness, and for the men, women and children of Iraq. And I will take steps to voice opposition to this madness. But I will do that where it counts, not here.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM

Art and Mick, Thank you for voicing these last posts as people who may or may not agree, but have the decency to respect all their fellow men and women, not just those with like opinions. Art, I especially appreciate your mention of marching and protesting all you want but avoiding those places which will be disruptive to the sons, daughters, parents and loved ones of the fine men and women who are protecting all of our freedoms by serving in the armed forces.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM

The issues are too complex for me. I'm not politically minded.

I DO know that my eldest son is in the RAF, his wife is 8 months pregnant with their second child, and he has been sent to a base too far to travel home daily. My heart aches for my daughter in law, on her own with a 3 year old all week, an having no idea what is happening next.

He can't wait to go to war.

This also is too hard for me to understand.

Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:54 AM

You can't protest around any Federal Buildings. Those nice large plazas have been off limits since Timothy McVeigh pulled his Ryder truck up close to the front door the the Murrah Federal Building in Ok City.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:19 AM

And let us please remember in our prayers, the brave anti-war activists who are now going into Iraq to act as human shields.

As to demonstrating around military installations, the feds won't allow it for the forseeable future anyway, so the point is pretty moot.

Personally, I think this whole "support the troops" thing is being used too manipulatively as a ploy by pro-war factions to be very credible.

Most of us here can likely name at least one person in the US military among our families and friends. To suggest that we aren't supporting our troops when we oppose the war is absolutely ludicrous.

We can simultaneously support our troops, and oppose their mission. That is our duty as citizens in a democracy, if we are opposed to the mission.

The mission isn't the troops, and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:34 AM

Nutty said "My prayers are that the politicians (on both sides) will listen to the voice of reason." That's an excellent place to start, but is it realistic? As Charles Walters said,

"Most people would rather swallow lies than the truth, especially if the liar has authority, and the dis-information is soothing, like a fine liqueur."

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:36 AM

How interesting, Matriot. If you were to go back to the Memorial Day thread, you were opposed to those of us who were making that distinction. But now it is OK. Glad to see you that you have changed.

In my weekly prayers of the faithful I always pray that people of conscience, especially those who act on it instead of just talking about it, never lose their courage and that The Greatest One always looks on them with special love.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:42 AM

Another problem many Americans seem to be having is that they cannot see how diplomacy could work in this circumstance, because of the Beltway propaganda being so bloody good. Many Americans have brainwashed by the propaganda into believing there are no diplomatic solutions to be found on this issue.

Nothing could be further from the truth, and people who reside outside the US, who aren't being bombarded with war propaganda, can see this very clearly.

So, just keep in mind Euro Mudcatters, that the majority of the American public supports this war, because the propagandists have told them they have to support this. And the US military/industrial propagandists are very, very good at what they do, which is to dominate the daily news. There is plenty of excellent writing and debate occuring, even being done by the mainstream press. But it never makes it onto the US daily news programs. Never. Only the executive branch and the Pentagon have that power to control our airwaves.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

Matriot, that isn't true. But why don't you take this to a different thread instead of hijacking this one? For a minute there I thought you really wanted to change, but clearly you don't. Please, let this thread be for what it is intended instead of hijacking it.

Start another for the purpose of discussing propaganda, and let Beccy have this thread for what it was intended. Waddya say?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:51 AM

I'm with you Beccy.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:54 AM

I'm with Beccy too. Now, can those of us who are with Beccy also offer our support to the Iraqi civilians and the anti-war activists who are, as we speak, bravely risking THEIR lives to prevent the slaughter of Iraqi civilians by our children?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM

Beccy: thanks for starting this thread. I, like many others, regret that your simple request is being treated by many as an invitation to simply repeat what they have already written ad nasuem in other threads regarding to the possible war with Iraq.

Mary: I'm sure you are aware that the young people from the U. S., at least, who will fight this war if it is fought, were not conscripted. They were volunteers, and anyone who volunteers and is not aware they may be called on to fight is simply not facing facts.

My prayers, Beccy, certainly go out to any and all who maybe be called on to free the people of Iraq.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:04 PM

From Reuters:

Iraq Grants Anti-War 'Human Shields' Entry Visas
Tue February 11, 2003 09:40 AM ET

ANKARA (Reuters) - A group of around 50 Western anti-war activists received visas Tuesday to enter Iraq where they plan to form "human shields" in an effort to deter a possible U.S.-led attack on the Arab state.
The volunteers said at an impromptu news conference in the Turkish capital they hoped their presence and the possibility of Western casualties would encourage U.S. political leaders and military planners to re-think any plans to bomb Baghdad for its alleged development of weapons of mass destruction.

"I am an American human shield on this trip to Baghdad to try and stop this war," said volunteer John Rosse.

"I ask American troops headed here...not to come, they have no business being here. They do not make good ambassadors. They are here to kill, murder, devastate the civilian population of Iraq. That is not an American thing to do."

The group is traveling across Turkey in a convoy, including a red double-decker bus, that is expected to cross into Syria on Wednesday before entering Iraq. The volunteers left London late last month and headed overland across Europe.

On arriving in Iraq, they plan to disperse to populated areas of Baghdad and other parts of the country. Critics have said they are naively playing into Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's hands.

Turkey last week deported Ken Nichols, a former U.S. marine who helped organize the "human shields" campaign, after he tried to enter the country using documents describing himself as a "citizen of the world."

Edward Cranswick, a seismologist who works for the U.S. government, said he wanted to raise awareness among Americans.

"I believe I am doing a small bit to raise attention, particularly (among) the American public...I want to be a human being alongside the Iraqis and that will get the attention of Americans," he said.

Read the rest of the article here:

Reuters article on anti-war activists acting as human shields

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:06 PM

I think these brave warriors for peace are just as deserving of our prayers--they are our troops too.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:49 PM

No prayers for those Americans acting as human shields, eh? Well, I can see how selective some people's prayers are. Talk about hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:09 PM

Prayers always outbound for the troops.

Matriot - Why don't you go be a shield if you feel so strongly? Talk about hypocracy - -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:10 PM

Go away, malignant, narcissistic, facist GUEST. I don't want you around here anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:14 PM

Must be doing my job, and hitting the mark.   The pro-war side is showing their true colors, and getting vicious.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

FYI, Norton1. Many peace activists are working here in support of the human shields in Iraq, as we have done for them in the West Bank, during the 90s in Iraq over the sanctions, as we did during the Central America wars with Witness for Peace, Peace Brigades, etc.

Anti-war activists in harms way in the Middle East need a supportive infra-structure back home to keep their protests going.

That simple, really. I work here supporting them there.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: outfidel
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

I'm against the invasion (until it can be proven necessary), but my prayers are still with our men & women in uniform. Tennyson said "Theirs not to question why, theirs but to do and die." That's a fact of life in the military. Let's hope and pray our leaders direct our young men & women with wisdom.

Fine sentiments, Beccy.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM

Sorry, I just zoned out after about 20 of these relatively self indulgent posts...

Blessings and angelic interference to all the enlisted soldiers on all sides of this violence... Only the war mongers deserve my curses, and yes, that does include Saddam... who is just about one of the worst sick MFs ever, IMO.

ttr

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM

I ask that everyone be given whatever help they need in order to do whatever is to the highest good of all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM

Well, I have allready offered up my list of folks who need our prayers which is just about everybody that I can think of. Then remembered that my pal, Little Hawk, who is away getting his spiritual self tuned up, and well I reckon I ought to cover for him.

The effects of war are not confined to just human beings. The earth and all of it's inhabitants are adversly affected so I believe that God would like to hear a few prayers for those other living things with which we share this earth.

And well, whhile we're at it. Our water will suffer. Our soils will suffer and ,yes, Little Hawk's rocks (don't go there...) will all suffer as well.

Just food for prayer.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM

So how many here will support and pray for the peace activists going into Iraq, then? I see a lot of fine talk, but nobody walking the peace walk. It is REAL easy to sit here among your friends and make sounds about peace, love, prayers, and world understanding.

Why do people here feel they can't even come out among their like-minded peace loving friends, and say "I will support these peace activists putting their lives on the line for the cause of peace, in MY name for the highest good of everyone involved"?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM

In MY name, ANON.GUEST? Think you for providing some humor to what is otherwise a depressing subject.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:28 PM

Yeah, in YOUR name. And mine. And the Iraqi's. Even in Saddam Hussein's name.

What is funny about people putting their lives on the line, just like our servicemen and women are going to do, to keep people from being slaughtered, artbrooks? Where is the humor in that?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM

Sorry GUEST. Everyone gets my prayers (and everything). Even the water, soil, and rocks that Bobert mentions. I don't know what is to the highest good of all concerned. I'm not that omniscient. So the best I can do is to ask for the highest good of all concerned, whatever that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: outfidel
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

> Why do people here feel they can't even come out among their like
> minded peace loving friends, and say "I will support these peace
> activists putting their lives on the line for the cause of peace,
> in MY name for the highest good of everyone involved"?

First, I'd love to see you come out in YOUR name. But you remain anonymous. What gives?

Second, I have a hard time supporting groups who brand America "terrorists" while supporting a nut like Hussein, and who generally take a "hate America first" approach to world affairs. For reasons that include a combination of psychological and ideological phenomena and factors, the America-haters pathologically and reflexively hate and rabidly oppose anything and everything "American", from the U.S. Constitution, to "capitalism", to American cars (especially SUVs). American cheese makes them sick. Of course, they do not publicly state all of that, but express their hate through numerous surrogate issues and causes to which they attach themselves, issues and causes that, not coincidentally, always, without exception, vilify America. The "hate America first" crowd is as mindless and irritating as Pat Buchanan and the America-first-ers.

So yes, I'll say a prayer that those who choose to become human shields don't get in harms way -- because, God willing, there won't be a need for harm -- but I won't be marching in their parades any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Pseudolus
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:44 PM

If you don't know what the humorous part of an Anonymous guest talking about people fighting "in MY name", I'm not gonna tell you. This is sad....ya can't start a thread about how you feel without it being judged. Beccy started a thread where people could come and read and take heart caring about loved ones and in typical Mudcat fashion, it has turned into a fight....Nice try Beccy, I will continue to stay tuned to this one despite those whose only goal in life is to disrupt.

My prayers go out as well......

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM

Someone (a guest probably) suggested that those who oppose the Bush administration's approach to solving the Iraq problem offer themselves as human shields. Though I may not agree with their POV I do know one thing: they are too smart to do that. I pray that the volunteer human shields have enough sense to find a very deep hole and a very effective flak jacket.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:16 PM

My prayers, along with those of others, go with 'our' boys and girls and include 'their' boys and girls (and aged men and women and toddlers and angry little 10-year-olds).

harpgirl says: Go away, malignant, narcissistic, facist GUEST. I don't want you around here anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and the malignant, narcissistic, fascist guest responds:

Must be doing my job, and hitting the mark.   The pro-war side )(emphasis Eb) is showing their true colors, and getting vicious.

Knowing that I'm not on any pro-war side, I second harpgirl's dictum: Go away, malignant, narcissistic, facist GUEST. I don't want you around here anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Guest WITHOUT A NAME, I suspect you are referring to Jesus' name when you say "MY" name but it is really quite funny that it can be taken as referring to YOU:
Why do people here feel they can't even come out among their like-minded peace loving friends, and say "I will support these peace activists putting their lives on the line for the cause of peace, in MY name for the highest good of everyone involved"?



For reasons that include a combination of psychological and ideological phenomena and factors, the America-haters pathologically and reflexively hate and rabidly oppose anything and everything "American", from the U.S. Constitution, to "capitalism", to American cars (especially SUVs). American cheese makes them sick. Of course, they do not publicly state all of that, but express their hate through numerous surrogate issues and causes to which they attach themselves, issues and causes that, not coincidentally, always, without exception, vilify America. The "hate America first" crowd is as mindless and irritating as Pat Buchanan and the America-first-ers.

Outfidel: I understand your take on it but I believe you are very much mistaken; I believe those of us who deplore our country's actions and savagely distrust its current government love our country every bit as much as you do. We want to see our country do well- and do GOOD besides- ; we want STATESMEN/STATESWOMEN who have a grasp of the consequences of actions, we want people in office who are not driven by "arrogance and dimwitted machismo". (Joe Klein)

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: mg
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

I don't want anyone to suffer one speck. They will if we go and they will if we don't go. Pick your poison. I pray for the human shields and for the enemy soldiers who have no say in the matter and all the civilians, families, etc. I wish I was naive enough to see an easy solution but I don't. We are damned one way if we do and another if we don't. mg

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM

All of you angry folks, wake up and deal with your anger in a positive way. We get into these situations because of un dealt with anger.

As for me, I'm with Beccy and I'll be prayin' 'til I wear my hip replacement out from getting up from my knees! Ha! Ha!

All of you angry folks might benefit from a little humor and joke telling, it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:33 AM

In a positive way, Walking Eagle? Surely you jest! Most of these folks wouldn't be able to view a subject that had anything to do with the U. S. government in a positive way if it jumped up and bit them in the ...oh you know where.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Ireland
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

Beccy has my total support in asking for support of the service women and men, as these people are putting their lives on the line no matter what others think.

One point though guest Matriot or whoever, if Bush and Blair back down and America gets hit by Iraq, will you be among those blaming Bush and saying it was his fault for listening to the anti war protesters? When Saddam used children, mothers and fathers as human shields, what worth would he put on the life of,well meaning,human shields in Iraq?

We all have to bear in mind that armed forces sign up voluntarily, they cannot be criticised for show a little exuberance in wanting to do the job they trained for. That is not to say all in the arm services want to kill people,but they have to do their job sometime.

What use would the armed forces be if they could vote on which war to fight in? Think of it, to make an informed decision all facts would have to be presented, what would the ramifications of that be?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM

I don't normally go in for personal invective, but Claymore, you're one sick sonofabitch.

With all your pornographic invocations of war, I wonder what you really did in Vietnam - if indeed you ever were there. You sound more like some inadequate fantasiser who can get off on the obscenity of war precisely because he has never experienced it.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:09 PM

"Turkey last week deported Ken Nichols, a former U.S. marine who helped organize the "human shields" campaign, after he tried to enter the country using documents describing himself as a "citizen of the world.""

This individual has not been able to prove he was in the Marines nor that he served in the Gulf War. The tattoo on his eye is the mark of a White Supremacist in prison. I do not believe him brave - but he can do what he wants.

And GUEST - you do a lot of personl invectives. Claymore is who he says he is. He and I have talked before. So you can apologize for that one. Your tough talk is no different from the present administrations talk regarding Iraq, only more hostile and less factual, so unless you have some personal experience to draw on I'd suggest you do a bit of research prior to making your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Beccy
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 02:48 PM

I had to bring this thread back up because I have a personal update to make. My cousin, serving with the Army's 3rd I.D., which most of you may have heard of at this point, was injured during the course of duty. About two weeks ago now, he was driving a humvee that was struck by an RPG. He was seriously hurt in his right leg, but is expected to regain full use of the leg. He is in major pain right now, but is back at Ft. Hood following evaluation in Germany where they said he was not capable of going back on duty before his division is sent home. His wife, two kids and the rest of our family is glad to have him back home- alive!

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 03:01 PM

Best of luck to him, Beccy.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 04:15 PM

Thanks for the update, Beccy. I've been wondering about folks who posted to this thread and had relatives over there, esp. Steve's daughter. I emailed him the other day, but haven't received a reply, yet.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:04 PM

Well this is interesting!

Does God look after the "loved ones" in priority order, according to how many incoming prayers he logs for each? Do prayers score higher where they are from friends and relatives than when they are offered up by people who don't know from Adam the people they're praying for? Are the prayers judged on content at all, or is it an entirely quantitative process?

If God does indeed intervene in this way, then the whole process is vomit-inducing. What about the poor sod sent into action, Christian to his fingernails (or Hindu, or Buddhist or whatever it takes) but whose friends and entire family have renounced their faiths and enter no prayers at all?

It might be worth some university looking at coalition casualties and fatalities and comparing the prayers offered up for them with the prayers offered for those who came through unscathed. There could be lessons to be drawn.

Meanwhile Claymore can rejoice that US troops are still getting dropped (or was it only dead ragheads that got him excited?). Only a trickle, but we're talking about a nation that based its foreign policy for several years on the loss of a mere 18 troops!

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:38 AM

Good news Beccy, I am sure that it must have been a very tough time for you and your family. Very glad to hear that he is now home and that the prognosis is that he will make a full recovery.

Best wishes to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM

Thanks for the chuckle Fionn, I couldn't agree more.

I'm the loathed guest (not the DG) with 5 family and friends over there, though only one actually landed in Iraq. Hopefully, he'll be coming home in September now--so long as the brass doesn't betray the troops again and hold them longer. We've had one come home so far with a nasty case of hepatitis. Other three are still scattered around the Gulf.

I'm so glad Beccy refreshed this thread. It's great to see the hypocrisy exposed again after the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:09 PM

A simple request...

When Johnny comes marching home again don't stop the prayers and support. The people (the volunteers) of the military have had to struggle in the performance of their duties, too long the victims of the politicians on both sides of the aisles who find them indispensible when their is a percieved threat and all too disposable when victory or loss has occured.

Whether you believe in "America's Finest" (or Britain's, Australia's, etc.) there shold be no reason for the people defending your country and way of life to end up living in impoverished conditions and getting the shaft after retirement.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:32 PM

Prayers for the Peaceful Warriors thread

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:10 PM

You don`t mind if I pray for the thousands of Iraqi families slaughtered in this needless war. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:24 PM

No, and I thank you for doing it.

I find it quite odd that in a forum where so many regulars fall all over one another claiming to be for peace, opposed to the war on Iraq, the war on terror, the occupation of Palestine by Israel, or in favor of multilateral solutions and international understanding--that not one poster is willing to say they will pray for peace activists or the families of peace activists. Not one poster here has stood up and said they will pray for the peace activists who worked so hard to prevent this war, and who remain vigilant regarding human rights, international law, and the many other aspects relevant to the Anglo American occupation of Iraq. Not one.

That smacks of pretty selective piety to me.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:40 PM

To "pray", of course, requires a positive belief in an activist diety or dieties. Personally I beieve I shall continue to feel regret for all of those killed and injured on both sides and disgust toward those who started this unnecessary war.

Subject: Lyr Add: WAR (Dougie Maclean)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 05:05 PM

Here is my offering--a song as a prayer. This one was written for the first Gulf War, and I've always interpreted it as a song lamenting the ways we damage our troops by sending them out to kill other human beings they have no personal quarrel with...

WAR by Dougie Maclean

Our voice made silent
Our hands made still
But deep and violent wait the ones who
wait to kill
The desert's burning, their reasons pale
For there's no returning
with some golden holy grail

What have they done?
What have they done?
The blood will run to everyone
Oh what have they done?

Is it for freedom? Or is it for truth
That father's fall and all the young
men trade their youth?
Or are they moved by deception's hand
That rank and reckless scatters death
across the sand?

What have they done?
What have they done?
The blood will run to everyone
Oh what have they done?

Is it for freedom? Or is it for truth
That fathers fall and all those young
men trade their youth?
And the deserts burning, their faces pale
For there's no returning
with some golden holy grail

What have they done?
What have they done?
The blood will run to everyone
Oh what have they done?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:35 PM

Fionn...you are sick. Please get professional help before you hurt yourself or, even worse, hurt someone else. These same sentiments apply to anyone who would sabatoge a serious topic like this. There are at least fifty other threads full of hate to occupy your time.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 07:24 PM

Dear Guest, You must remember that Fionn, on the evidence of past posts is an Ulster based journalist, suffering from Gluacoma. (SP)

Trat his moronic and hate filled posts as those of a sick person who uses The 'Cat as a means of escapism. He needs our prayers rather than our criticism.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 07:52 PM

Yes, my thoughts go out to those who are in the war, but so do they go out to ALL of life on this planet as we are all related.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 08:24 PM

Gareth:

Thanks for a word to the wise. You and I and most sane people realize that the hateful rant on Mudcat is coming from fewer two dozen sick creeps. I suspect that most of them have no connection to music, the reason this forum was started.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:59 PM

Still not a single Mudcatter with the guts, the courage, or the gumption to say they would actually pray for peace activists.

Now that is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 02:33 AM

You are all using faith. Fionn, angry or not, is using logic.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:03 AM

I think more amused than angry, pdc, at least as far as the faith stuff goes. Not so amused that "our servicemen and women," as the thread title has it, have just killed another five Iraqi civilians. With a bit more support, and perhaps a few more prayers, that could have been ten!

(Right about glaucoma, Gareth - you must have waded through scores of posts to unearth that! - but wrong about Ulster. Keep reading....)

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 12:06 PM

Shows what a great guy Gareth is, using a poster's glaucoma against them in an Internet forum discussing politics.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 01:24 PM

Please let us offer up our prayers for the five Iraqi people murdered yesterday by US troops. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 03:59 PM

As a peace activist, I don't judge first, then pray. Everyone, soldiers on both sides, civilians, the political and military leaders--all are included in our prayers, not just those on "our side" or those we judge as being worthy of our prayers.

I'm glad you mention the Iraqi civilians, ard mhacha. There is an interesting Washington Post article today here:

US Aggressive Against Iraqis

It talks about how much more repressive our troops become as they come under more and more attacks, creating a vicious cycle of retribution without much recrimination--until the shooting stops, and everyone is left with what they did and didn't do to or for their fellow humans.

Killing and terrorizing other human beings damages a person, often beyond repair and any reasonable expectation of recovery, much less redemption.

Like Dougie's song says:

"the blood will run to everyone
oh, what have they done"

That of course includes the soldiers who are doing the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:57 PM

No Fionn - I don't waste my time on these matter, some of the more assinine posta stick in my mind - Particullaly your brand of personal nastyness.

And Guest, if you are offended my appologies.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:58 PM

Having the experience of living under an army of occupation gives me an insight into how those Iraqi people feel.
You are terrorised on a daily basis by arrogant thugs armed to the teeth, there is no one to turn to, the troops have carte blanche to do whatever they want, your only means of justice is to hit back at the occupiers, by any means.
The deaths of Saddam`s sons instead of easing the situation will only lead to more hatred,there is a long hard road ahead for the invaders.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 07:09 PM

Gee Ard Mhacha, I am horrified to hear that. I thought you lived in Britain - Where do you live ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 08:27 PM

And this is the man that cut veteran benefits by 50%
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushburstold.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 11:09 PM

Donuel, while I don't have much good to say about him, Federal veterans' benefits have not been cut during the Bush regime.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM

In reply to Blairs favourite Welshman, I was born into an artifical state, set up by the British Government in 1922 for 50 years discrimination was all we knew.

In jobs, education, even barred from any form of politics through the use of gerrymander, the city of Derry had a population threequarters Irish Nationalists and the set-up was such that the Unionists were forever in the magority.

The Judical system along with the RUC Police force, ran the six counties of Ulster as they wished, a blind eye was turned on this evil by a British Government not in the least interested until the Nationalists began peaceful protests against the system only to be hammered down by the RUC.

The tactics used by the Brits involved the use of local unionist para-militaries to do their killing, by setting up any member of the local nationalist population that were becoming a nuisance, this included two Lawyers Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson.

Yes, we live in the UK but it was a long way removed from Cardiff or Glasgow.

What we see going on in Iraq is a carbon copy of what went on in the six counties of occupied Ulster.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 02:40 PM

Hmmm ! If I recalled The Republic of Ireland were signatories to that treaty. Perhaps it would be correct to call the 6 counties liberated.
Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 02:50 PM

artbrooks: Thank you for correcting the previous (intentionally) erronious statement about veterans' benefits. I know several servicemen who were waiting for the 2000 election results. If Gore had won they would have retired from the military. Clinton did major damage to the veteran's hospital system, and would have ended it competely if he had the power to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:46 PM

Uh, that should read "CONGRESS did major damage..." there, pd. And it was Republican controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:11 PM

Why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?
Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:12 PM

You remember correctly, Gareth, but also selectively. Otherwise you would have remembered that the Irish delegation signed the treaty because war was the only alternative. Lloyd George was obliged to narrow the options that far because he was then dependent on the Tory party to stay in office. The Tories at the time were still led by Bonar Law, who was by then more or less off his trolley.

Before you fire off your cheap shots, Gareth, you might pause and try to imagine what life has been like for Ard Mhacha and many thousands of others in a forgotten corner of the UK this past 34 years. And by the way, Northern Ireland, the six counties, the liberated north or whatever you want to call it is NOT in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:44 PM

GUEST, pdq: sorry, but I must disagree. I worked for the VA throughout the Clinton administration, and the funding, quality of care and access to services all improved tremendously during that period.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:56 PM

And see you are reverting to your natural obnoxiousness Fionn. Get your facts right - If A M's posts are correct this situation has been going on for a lot longer than 34 years. So why pick that date, or is it selective quoting on your part ?

I suggest you refer to Marcus Lipton's Pamphlet " John Bulls other Island "

And if you think that that the six Counties is not part of Britain, then I suggest you take that up with the Majority of the Voting Population in the 6 counties.

Or have you forgotten what Democracy is ?

What medical refrences can you quote for the insanity of Bonar Law, or is it another instance of Bad Journalistic Practice ? Picking up rumours in Saloon Bars again ?

Gareth - Who at least makes his name and address available to other 'Catters

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:07 PM

artbrooks: Thanks for response. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. There are probably three levels to consider. The top, Clinton, said he wanted to end it the veterans hospital system completely. Again, he did not have the power to do so. Second is the national management system which is, and always has been, first rate. Third is the individual hospital, many of which suffered cutbacks and had to refuse service to a large number of people.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:27 PM

GUEST,pdq: I never heard that Mr. Clinton said anything about closing down the VA medical care system. In fact, the number of points of care expanded tremendously...about tripled...because his administration instituted the satellite clinic program. Many individual facilities did have mission changes, because what they were doing just wasn't effective. For example, having a cardiac surgery program at a hospital that did 2-3 a year didn't provide enough cases for the surgeons to keep in practice.

The thing that the Clinton administration did do that had a negative effect on wait times was to open up the system to all veterans, regardless of income or service-connected status. A large number of vets who could afford to go elsewhere, and have their care paid for by their health insurance, promptly signed up for the VA. The only explaination for this is the quality of care provided. I have good medical insurance, and I wouldn't go anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:27 PM

artbrooks: If our vets are getting the quality of care they were promised when they signed up, that has made my day. Thanks for letting us know.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:52 AM

I buy cookies from an African American lady, whose daughter is serving in Iraq. The United States Army is one of the best opportunities for people of color, which is why the young woman decided to make it her carreer.
I don't like the war. I DO like the cookie lady. (Anyone who supplies me with chocolate is my friend.) I hope her daughter returns to her family, safely. I think I'm being reasonable. I hope George W. Bush is photographed in a compromising situation with a heifer.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:28 AM

Fionn,

Gareth is correct in what he has said:

1. The Irish Free State, representing those Irishmen who wanted to be seperated from the rule of Westminster, were signatories of the Treaty of 1922.

2. The six counties that did not join, where, the majority of the population wished to remain within a United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, politically make Northern Ireland a part of the United Kingdom. The majority of its population still wish to remain so.

3. Hovering over those negotiating the treaty of 1922, was a threat not of war between the UK and the Irish Free State, but of a civil war in an Irish Free State that included the population of those six counties. Now mainland UK could have taken the view, "Hell we've been trying to get rid of this lot for the last fifty years, let 'em go and let 'em get on with it". They couldn't do that for two reasons, a civil war in Ireland would have devastated that island and the resulting outcome could have been damaging to both Britain and Ireland, the civil war would inevitably have drawn in the UK and others. So a compromise had to be found - everybody connected with the negotiations knew that, even de Valera.

I read AM's description of living under occupation - another question for you AM - During those years under occupation, who posed the greatest threat to your life, the "occupying forces" (which of course they are not, they are the armed forces of the United Kingdom and have every right to be stationed anywhere in the United Kingdom), or the paramilitaries (from either side, a bomb placed in a crowded bar, shop, or street is very indiscriminate in who it kills).

The paramilitaries - the unelected self-appointed "guardians", who have the gall in a democratic society, to state that they act on behalf of whatever section of the population. Fact is they don't, and never have done - take a look at the result of the "All Ireland" referendum which asked the views of the entire population on the use of arms in Irish politics. Something like 92% of the votes cast condemned the use of force and arms to resolve the issue of Irish unification - The Republican, or Nationalist, paramilitaries have no mandate whatsoever to speak for "the Irish people", they can threaten a return to an armed struggle, but they could never do it. They fully realise that, for they would be roundly condemned for it, and with the current attitude towards terrorism, the Republican/Nationalist cause's greatest traditional ally would prove to be its greatest enemy.

Note that there have been no candidates offered up for an example of a single paramilitary who has saved a life. From the ranks of those who, for the the last 34 years, have served in the Army, police force and emergency services - I could name many.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:25 AM

My last reply to this thread was deleted, Again I will try and have another effort to post.

I don`t wish to have this Thread diverted to another sick county squabble, merely to say, read John McGuffins book The Guinea Pigs and Ulster by the Sunday Times Insight team. 1972.

The Times Insight team was lauded for exposing the corrupt Unionist set-up, Harold Evans [not P O` Neill] was the Editor. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM

Ah, Teribus the great defender of the realm (so long as he has the most guns)--pontificates thus:

"1. (he does so love to enumerate his points-ed) The Irish Free State, representing those Irishmen who wanted to be seperated from the rule of Westminster, were signatories of the Treaty of 1922."

This certainly gave me chuckle. Perhaps the great and powerful Teribus could accept that not ALL those who wished to be separated from the rule of Westminster, supported the Treaty of 1922. There was that pesky civil war thing over the signing of the treaty, and the robbing of the six counties by Britain (who needed the shipbuilders of the empire to stick with the union).

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:05 AM

GUEST 30 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM

As far as I can make out I am not defending anything - realm or otherwise.

Regarding point 1 of my previous post. You obviously chuckle easily.

There is no doubt at all that, "not ALL those who wished to be separated from the rule of Westminster, supported the Treaty of 1922."

Guest you mention, "that pesky civil war thing over the signing of the treaty", now that was a fairly low key thing compared to the "pesky civil war thing" that would have ensued if the pro-Union North had been forced into the free state.

Now your turn to make me laugh, "the robbing of the six counties by Britain (who needed the shipbuilders of the empire to stick with the union)". So Britain having just come through the Great War, with all the resultant merchant shipping losses, relied so heavily on Belfast shipbuilders. What about the massive shipbuilding capacity of mainland Britain, Guest?

Strikes me that the shipbuilders in Northern Ireland needed Britain at that time a damn sight more than Britain needed them - shipbuilding facilities in Aberdeen, Rosyth, Newcastle, Middlesborough, Hull, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Chatham, Portsmouth, Southampton, Plymouth, Appledore, Liverpool, Birkenhead, Workington and the Clyde. Oh yes, Britain really needed the Harland & Wolf yard in Belfast. As part of the Irish Free State, civil war apart - How many orders for British ships would have been placed there? - Who else were they going to build ships for?

Your contentions are a nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:19 AM

Britain couldn't, at the time, afford to lose any of it's shipbuilding capacity, hence the betrayal of the treaty, and Britain's unilateral partitioning of the island of Ireland. To suggest that because Britain had other shipbuilding capacity, it didn't need the shipbuilding capacity it had in Ireland, defies the historical record of events at that time in Ireland and England.

And the argument that civil war between unionists and nationalists would have been worse than the civil war between nationalists, is pure speculation which could never be proved. But it does make for a convenient excuse, used by British apologists and realm defenders like yourself, there Teribus, for Britain's unilateral partitioning of the island. That same British partitioning tactic was used throughout the Anglo and American empires throughout the 20th c. to ill effect everywhere it was done.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 10:53 AM

34 years refers to the time since British troops were sent to Northern Ireland following a plea from Gerry Fitt to protect the Roman Catholic minority, who were suffering from an almost apartheid-style discrimination at the hands of the majority Protestant population. Growing up a Catholic in Northern Ireland was to be largely condemned to second-class citizenship (I have a large chunk of my very Catholic family in Northern Ireland, so I do know what I'm talking about).
As to why things went sour - that's another can of worms altogether, tied up with political naivete on the part of both Republicans and the British Government, duplicity and downright power mania. Bloody Sunday certainly didn't help matters either.
From my reading of his postings, Fionn is rather better versed in Ulster politics than most here - and certainly more qualified to comment than any other English or Welsh posters in this thread. I also happen to agree with his tongue-in-cheek take on divine intercession! If that makes me sick, well, I'm sick and proud to be. Better a healthy cynicism than a saccharine mawkishness that attempts to sweeten the unpalatable.

And to return to the original subject; praying for peace - as a secular humanist I find the concept of prayer rather pointless, but I do hope and wish for peace, and for the stupidity and mendacity of the Bush and Blair administrations to be recognished by the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:09 AM

Well, that didn't work! Sorry about that.

Very well said, Gervase. I would hope that both those who are religiously inclined and the secular humanists, will pray (if that is their thing) and work for the stupidity and mendacity of the Bush and Blair administrations to be recognished by the electorate, and be rejected by them.

I would also hope that those who claim to be religious, do the truly charitable thing, and pray for all those who are brutalized by war, and to include those who work so hard to prevent and/or bring war and it's suffering to a speedy end, and not just for their own servicemen and women.

Selective piety and self-righeous, begrudging religiosity benefits no one.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:13 AM

With all do respect to the many Irish, Green or Orange, who have suffered or passed on due to the actions of others, please keep you fight at home. This thread is for people who have positive things to say about the American (and some British) servicemen who are risking their lives at the request of their leaders. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:35 PM

Teribus- When you say "'occupying forces' (which of course they are not, they are the armed forces of the United Kingdom and have every right to be stationed anywhere in the United Kingdom)", do you really mean that any land declared to be territory of a given nation cannot be occupied by that nation? If so, that legitimizes the British occupation of India, the innumerable occupations of Africa by European nations, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and in fact the Nazi occupations of France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. I don't think that this was really your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:16 PM

OK GUEST 30 Jul 03 - 10:19 AM

Let's take a look at the historical record of events at that time in Ireland and England:

"Britain couldn't, at the time, afford to lose any of it's shipbuilding capacity" - Wrong after an extremely short lived boom immediately after the war, there was a major recession. No ships because there was no money to build them, therefore why do they need the capacity.

Now lets look at, "the betrayal of the treaty,". I take it that the treaty you are talking about was the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1922. Giffiths and Collins were sent, by de Valera to negotiate as plenipotentiaries (i.e. they had the right to act on behalf of the Irish Government without having to refer back to that Government). Having given those men that power, de Valera should have been bound by what was negotiated, otherwise, he should have gone and done the job himself. The terms that were negotiated, were better than any previous Irish Home Rule proposals that had beeen accepted by previous Irish leaders.

When the acceptance of the Treaty was debated and put to the vote (I believe the voting was 64 to 57 in favour) de Valera resigned and the civil war started, between those supporting the Free State Party and de Valera's Republicans. The Free State side won. If the Treaty was betrayed by anyone it was betrayed by de Valera, who in a private conversation later in life declared, his opposition to the Treaty to have been the biggest mistake he had ever made in his life (Not my opinion documented Wikipedia).

As to "Britain's unilateral partitioning of the island of Ireland". The Anglo-Irish Treaty was just that, for it included the whole of Ireland, but provided for Partion if the North decided against it. The Boundaries were to be decided by a Boundary Commission, chaired by a South African Judge and made up of representatives from UK, Irish Free State and the North. The Treaty was signed and ratified in 1922, but due to the civil war in Southern Ireland the Boundary Commission could not start work until 1924-25. The agreement reached was signed by Baldwin, Cosgrove and Craig - So where does unilateral come into that?

"the argument that civil war between unionists and nationalists would have been worse than the civil war between nationalists, is pure speculation which could never be proved." Very true, with whether or not it would have been worse or not, is speculation, well founded as the scale of the conflict would have been greater. But please don't try to deny that the prospect of such a civil war, wasn't taken into account by those negotiating the Treaty. At that time, only Collins had a premonition that in signing the treaty, he was in effect signing his own death warrant - the civil war between the Republicans and Free Staters was by no means a predictable foregone conclusion.

As to the British partitioning tactic. Let's see:
Canada - No
Austalia - No
New Zealand - No
South Africa - No
Southern Rhodesia - No, became Zimbabwe
Northern Rhodesia - No, became Zambia
Nyasaland - No, became Malawi
Tanganyka - No, British Mandated Territory
Zanzibar - No, British Mandated Territory on independence united with Tanganyka to form Tanzania
Kenya - No
Uganda - No
British and French Somalia - No as they united on independence
Burundi - No
Namibia - No, British Mandated Territory
Nigeria - No
Ghana - No
Malaya - No
Borneo - No
Cyprus - No, Britain threatened to partition it as a means of ending EOKA's campaign.
India - No, Partition was at the instance of Jinnah, the acknowledged leader of India's muslim population. The British, Gandhi and Nehru were all against it. First call for a seperate Pakistan voiced by Dr. Allama Iqbal in 1930, repeated by Jinnah in 1940. Talks to resolve the issue between Gandhi and Jinnah in 1944 were unsuccessful. In 1945 the British Labour Government prepare India for Independence conceeding that partition is inevitable. India partitioned to form India, East Pakistan, West Pakistan, Burma (Myanmar).

Palestine - No, British Mandated territory. Britain proposed it 20% Jewish, homeland, 80% Palestinian. The Jewish settlers accepted this - the Palestinians didn't - Pity really.

I haven't gone through all the islands as the answer there is no as well. So Guest - that sure was a well applied and oft-times used tactic wasn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 09:53 PM

I'm sorry for my part in steering the thread on to a track well worn in other threads. I preferred the religion v superstition banter.

I go along with most of Teribus's last post above. But he was wrong in an earlier post to deny that the Irish delegation signed under threat of war. This threat was explicit all along (see Frank Pakenham's book on the treaty, Peace by Ordeal). In my view L-G was genuinely desperate to avoid war, but was compromised by his dependence on the Tories. Dev's decision to oppose both the treaty and the parliamentary vote on it cost many thousands of lives, and probably set back by decades the cause of a united Ireland.

I'm also with Teribus on the argument that the H&W shipyard was never a factor. What certainly was a factor was the huge, and then recent, Irish losses in WW1; in particular Belfast losses at the Somme. L-G and Churchill, both members of the British negotiating team, felt honourbound to stand by those in Ireland who wanted to stay British.

This is not to say they were right. But by the time Craig had abused the opportunity, to create "a protestant parliament for a protestant people" (with which chilling phrase he reduced 40-odd per cent of the six-counties to non-people), Ireland had been kicked into touch at Westminster.

Teribus grandly referred to a "United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland." As I think he knows, the sovereign entity was, and is, the United Kingdom of Great Britain (which includes Wales) and Northern Ireland. The name of the nation should make it abundantly clear for Gareth's benefit that Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.

The best book on the work of the boundary commission remains Puckoon by Spike Milligan.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:18 PM

Please respect the people who would like a non-political discussion and start a new thread. Irish are the largest "minority" in the U.S. at about 75 million people. You will have no trouble getting people to complain about something. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:22 PM

Fionn's point, Teribus, is important. You confused Britain with the UK. Any UK passport holder knows that the inside page states '.. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen ireland. The Northern Irish are members of the UK but not British although I wouldn't tell Ian Paisley that, at least not to his face!
The rest of the above thread really just proves that prayers do no good as there seems to be nobody listening .. except he/she who does the praying and I think that is the reason why people pray, it makes them feel good so why not. Personally, when I was called up to join the British army in 1956 to fight in Suez, in a war concocted between, Britain, France and Israel, I chose not to and was sent to prison, in Glasgow's infamous Barlinie gaol. I think I met a better class of person.
Yours in peace,
Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:49 PM

Teribus-All of the divisions you mentioned in Africa were purely administrative divisions, with no bearing on local political structures. The partitioning occured at the beginning of colonization, but that doesn't make it any less of a partition. Also, as I asked before, do you really think that if a country claims a given territory, that any military forces present there are not occupiers?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 03:07 PM

Fionn - Surprisingly I agree with your objective comments (last post)

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:38 AM

Jim,

Please correct me if I am wrong:

".... The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen ireland. The Northern Irish are members of the UK but not British"

Act of Union 1707 - created the United Kingdom of Scotland and England. One parliament, under one crown. A Union Flag was designed consisting of the crosses of St.George and St.Andrew.

Act of Union 1801 - created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Note the change, what is being described in the title is the geographic entity - i.e. two islands, with one Parliament and one crown. A new Union Flag was designed adapting the old to include the cross of St.Patrick.

Anglo-Irish Treaty 1922 - Southern Ireland breaks away from the Union. The title of the Monarch is changed, now to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The cross of St.Patrick remains on the national standard.

I believe those living in Northern Ireland are entitled to carry British passports. Northern Ireland is as much a part of the United Kingdom as Scotland and Wales. Our little cluster of islands, dotted off mainland Europe are collectively referred to in geographic terms as the Britsh Isles - not the British Isles and Ireland - I believe that was done by the Romans, but I'm not sure, I believe they named the Isles, Brittanica Maximus and Hibernia - but as I say not sure about it, and don't have time at present to look it up - others will know, of that I am sure.

Forum Lurker I believe I answered your question in my PM.

As to the partitioning tactic mentioned by GUEST 30 Jul 03 - 10:19 AM. We were discussing the partition of Ireland and Guest says:

"But it does make for a convenient excuse, ..... for Britain's unilateral partitioning of the island. That same British partitioning tactic was used throughout the Anglo and American empires throughout the 20th c. to ill effect everywhere it was done."

In the context of our discussion, Guest is certainly talking about partiton of countries on gaining independence. Expansion of the British Empire during the 20th century was restricted to administration of former German colonies in Africa (Namibia, Tanganyka and Zanzibar). In addition Britain was given responsibility for Mandated Territories by the League of Nations. Partition on or immediately before independence was not, and never has been, a "British tactic" as stated by Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 12:52 PM

Teribus-True, the intent of partitioning the African territories was administrative, rather than punitive, and I hadn't received your PM at the time of my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 07:32 AM

Teribus, the devil's in the detail. There is no question but that Northern Ireland is a separate entity to that of Great Britain and as such their 'citizens' are United Kindgom 'citizens'.The Encyclopaedia Britannica states that '...The United Kingdom (known popularly, if not quite accurately as Britain) ...'.
I notice you use the term Anglo quite often in your postings to mean Britain or British, but what does Anglo mean in, for example, the Anglo Scottish Union of 1707? What is an Anglo-Irish football match, if not between England and Ireland? So why does The Anglo Irish Agreement suddenly mean an agreement between the UK government and Ireland? There are plenty misnomers around which have profound political meaning ..Anglo = England = UK.
There's also the question of Royal titles since the Union of the Crowns .... but enough for now.
Cheers,
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Frankham
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:13 AM

Beccy,

I am not a militarist. But I know people who are in the military. One man I know was a candidate for the Green Berets. His contention is this,
that Rumsfeld policy was and is a prescription for military disaster.
The fact that American troops are being picked off in a guerilla war certainly shows the incompetence of the Administration's policies.
I pray that American troops will be returned home. I pray for better leadership in the White House so that our young men and women will not be subjected to danger by political incompetence.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:42 PM

Early this afternoon I took twenty-one (21) boxes of paperbacks over to the local National Guard armory. They'll accompany the troops -- all local folk -- to Ft. Bliss and then go with them to Iraq.

These books were donated by the community, including Idaho State University faculty and students. They were checked over by local veterans' organizations (American Legion, DAV, VVA, VFW, etc.) to make sure they were in good shape. The Library served as the collector.

In addition, this public library is forgiving the fines of anyone who has served in a combat zone since January 1, 2003, their spouse, and their children. The children of anyone KIA will be fine-free until they turn 18.

Pocatello, Idaho supports their daughters, sons, husbands, wives, fathers, brothers, mothers who might be in harm's way. Not everyone here -- by a LOOOOOOOOOONG shot -- is in favor of either the war or Bush. They ARE in favor of their neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:38 AM

Praying is an excellent thing. But if you would like to do more for the young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan, go to Michael Moore's web page. He has a whole listing of organizations that are set up to help service people and their families.
Most of these people went into the service to get money for college, or extra money to pay the bills, or training in a specific field.
When I was a kid, someone put a sign up sheet on the school bulletin board asking for radios to send to soldiers in Vietnam. I had a little transistor I never used, so I signed up. As I as doing so, a passing classmate punched me in the eye. She played goalie on the hockey team, so it was a good punch.
Most of those kids were draftees, who didn't have any real choice, except jail.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:18 AM

I am a grunt. A groundpounder. A dogface. GI Joe, Tommy Atkins, whatever you want to call me. I am your soldier, no matter how I serve, and I've been around since Ugmug's people fought with their neighbors.

I've been at Waterloo, Agincourt, Khe Sanh, Dien Bien Phu, Normandy, Vimy Ridge, the Meuse, Austerlitz, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Betio, Port Arthur, Pork Chop Hill, Marathon, Valmy, Pultowa, Blenheim, Quebec, Saratoga, Maldon Bridge, Hastings, King's Mountain, Missisinewa, Vicksburg, Gettysburg, Cold Harbor, and a million more battles large and small.

I was both the winner and the loser, for I fought on both sides.

I fight on my feet, but I've been taken into battle by ship, truck, airplane, glider, rowboat, horse, submarine, armored vehicle, wagon, helicopter, and even by taxi. Most of the time I've walked.

My fight is often very personal. I've fought with rifles, rocket launchers, knives, clubs, swords, bayonets, hand grenades, flamethrowers, explosives, pistols, spears, halberds, stones, chemicals, and many other weapons. Often I've fought with my hands. And I've often died.

I've crouched in holes full of mud and worse and stood up in full view. I've fought from behind parapets, fascines, corpses, sandbags, dead horses, castle walls, barbed wire, chemine de frise, burning vehicles, trees, rocks, and any place I could find cover and concealment. I have walked into battle over the bodies of both my foes and my friends.

I have fought, and fought with, every nation and people on Earth, without exception.

There is nothing that can replace me. Nothing.

I am your son, your daughter, your father, your mother, cousin, husband, lover, wife, grandchild -- I am yourself.

You send me to fight. Perhaps through your elected representatives, but it is you that send me. And it is you that must support me when I fight and, perhaps even more, when I come back to you, changed utterly.

I am your soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,another cowardly guest poster
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 12:29 PM

Shouldn't we pray for our torturers in Abu Griab? I think we should -don't forget they're soldiers too. I wonder if the torturers ,sorry specialists ,pray themselves .From the pictures I've seen of them ,they all seem like good upstanding Americans so I'm sure they will all be familiar with the power of prayer. But ,if any of them ever feel at a loss, here is a short prayer I have written especially for them .They may care to offer it up should they find themselves in need of solace whilst they go about their onerous duties. It is a call for spiritual as well as moral renewal:
O Lord, give us the strength to break the limbs of these terrorists and enemy combatants as is surely thy will. Send thy love to comfort us thy specialist servants as we do thy work so that we will not be troubled by the screams of agony around us.And ,when our work in this far mission is done ,O lord, deliver us safely to our homes and to our loved ones that we may obtain college educations and put our children through high school. God Bless America. Amen

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 09:05 PM

Sorry, Repaire, but I don't send you or anyone else.

Not in MY name.

But that does NOT mean I wish you or any individual soldiers ill.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:13 PM

So vote against those who sent them, if you can. I will.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:29 PM

Rapaire, did you think none of us would recognize that you had copied and pasted that militarist screed, and put your name on it here?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 12:09 AM

Really, ANON.GUEST? The first paragraph doesn't come up on a Google search. Where did you find it?

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 01:21 AM

Whether or not it was copied and pasted is beside the point. I think it is quite valid, and belongs on this thread.

I am very much anti-war - I've marched in peace marches and sung anti-war songs in my choir, but at the same time, I recognize that it is the politicians who send our soldiers off to fight - they are doing an unpleasant and dangerous job because they have to, and most have the best of intentions. Admittedly there are a few who enjoy the idea of warmongering, but they are in the minority.

I think they deserve our support and good thoughts simply because they are other human beings in need of it.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 02:14 AM

well said jenny. nothing is simple, nothing is black and white. I oppose the war, but see it as the poitician's responsibility. the people at the front line are the ones who see and experience more than anyone else the realities of what is happening in any war. despite that they keep fighting because they believe that is the right thing to do. they are heroes or fodder, depending on how someone theorises, but more than anything they need support.

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 11:50 AM

My prayers go out to all of the servicemen and women as well as those innocent Iraqi women, children and men who were murdered by them. The Iraqi war is a internation tragedy of gigantic proportions

I now believe that the best support we can give them is to allow them to return home and stop using Wall Street stock market expressions like "stop loss" to enslave them to furthur duty.

The policy is misguided from the inception. There can be no democracy in Iraq as long as it is occupied by an external military force. Nor will the new Iraqi government put in place by an external goverment succeed with the people of Iraq. The "insurgents" are increasing their ranks by Iraqi citizens who don't want the US there.

Our best hope for our young men and women is to bring them home as soon as possible. You can't bring democracy to a country who is looking down the barrel of a gun.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 12:26 PM

Well said, Frank; but do not lose sight of the number of those barrels being weilded byu internal opponents.

Democracy is not in the minds of those who wield guns. By their very nature what is in their minds is elimination of disagreement by force.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In support of our servicemen and women..
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM

1. I wrote it. I did not cut and paste it.

2. I wrote it to remind everyone that those in the service are sent by those people WE put there -- WE being what happens in an election, whether it's decided by a direct vote, the Electoral College, or the Supreme Court. The folks in DC or London or wherever represent US, the people in the country.

3. If you don't like the people who represent you, if you don't like what they're doing, I will refer you to this copy-and-paste:

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Yes, it's part of a larger work. Try not to lose sight of what it says.

4. I will support, now and in the future, with my actions and my vote, the the best of my ability, those who have been sent in harms way. This in no way means that I approve of their leaders.

5. I don't think for a minute that what happened at Abu Ghraib wasn't condoned, implicitly or explicitly, by those at the top of the chain of command. Nor do I think that those at the bottom of the chain are guiltless, as the US Army has said since at least 1948 that every soldier has not only the right, but the duty, to questions illegal orders. In this case, I think that the rot spread downwards. Moreover, "a helluva lot of troops over in Iraq are disgusted about the thing" -- and that's not an opinion, but a quote from an email I received from a cousin over there.