BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.

Subject: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM

Jeez, I never thought I'd get into this political quagmire, let alone START a thread about it, but I feel I have no choice.

I've just listened to Powell speak (at the UN) for the last twenty minutes or so, and I realize that everything that REALLY scares me about George W Bush, has a bright spotlite shone on it when this man speaks. He is articulate, appears to UNDERSTAND what he's talking about, and although I disagree totally with the position he appears to be forced to take, at least I feel I'm listening to a man who has some substance.

I realize that several world leaders (including Prime Minister Chretien) are being forced into positions that they'd NEVER take without huge pressure, and I guess this is how BIG wars start.

Just wanted to say OH how I wish Colin Powell was calling the shots now rather than the other guy.....it would be a completely different situation....still scary, but maybe avoidable.

bugger

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM

I agree completely, Rick. At least the man demonstrably has a brain and can use it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:52 PM

I dunno. I read that that the word was out that Powell's views were becoming unpopular around the House and that he knew he had to start cracking to toe the official line if he wanted to avoid ouster. If true, that doesn't speak of conviction or integrity, only of being able to debate either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: TIA
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

But, if they are unpopular, that means he's voicing them where it counts. Go Colin!

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

(HERE is what Colin Powell supports, people...universal service for all your kids and grandkids and you. And if you don't do military duty, you WILL serve the local cops as your 'civilian service'. All this while our police run around in black ski masks terrorizing people. COLIN POWELL IS A TERRORIST!):

S. 89

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
January 7, 2003

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

(a) OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG PERSONS- It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States, who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act.

Thomas.gov

Type in s.89

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM

Sorry. Didn't mean to kill the thread. Everyone needs heroes, but Powell isn't one of mine. I think possibly he's more fundamentally moral than those around him, and maybe he's being blackmailed into doing things against his will, like Gen. Tommy Franks, but the people in charge take the blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM

So Joe....is this to be the current Mudcat? I rarely get involved in the endless political left-right, red-faced babble, so I tried to be thoughtful in making my points here. As anyone can see I made several references to Powell's ability to SPEAK, and hopefully COMPREHEND a very complex situation. Quite rational I thought.....and now a new "GUEST" (I doubt this is J.R. for several reasons..age and articulation being two of them) just jumps in and rants. Effectively ending my participation in my own thread.

C'est la Vie I guess. Hmmmm, after four years, my FIRST real Mudcat complaint.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

I watched those speeches and it was interesting seeing the different reaction to the French representative, who got a round of applause, which is almost unheard of,(and he deserved it too, as much for the eloquence with which he spoke as for the content of what he said) and Powell and Straw whose contributions were met in total silence.

Straw was an embarrassment mind, but then he is. Powell was doing his best, saying things he had to. I got the feeling he was groaning inside.

Mind, when they switched from Powell to Bush making a speech there was an even wider gulf. Powell has some natural authority and dignity. Bush... well as Miss Jean Brodie was prone to say, for those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like. Can anyone imagine having those two men up for interview for a significant job and giving it to Bush? Well, I suppose there might be some jobs.

But what struck me as absurd was the way this was organised - a desperately important report has to be made and responded to. Common sense in this situation would be, you'd have the report, and then you'd adjourn long enough to consider what you'd heard, and read through the transcript, and maybe consult with home office. Only then would you work out exactly what to say, and reconvene to say it.

Doing it this way just turns it into a pantomime. Speeches prepared in advance on behalf of positions agreed in advance. A bit of an insult to us all really.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:44 PM

Well, Rick, I'll keep it going... maybe.

I have mixed feelings on Powell. Yes, he is infinately smarter that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld side of the family, as is Cindi Rice, but he has kinda "prosituted" kimself.

But I will give him credit for confronting Bush forcefully in the early days of the huff-n-puff stuff that was going on and IO'm sure that the US would never had gone to the Un if it weren't for Powell. Problem is, if he's so smart, how come he seems to have *bought into* the attack. Especially since he knows full well that it isn't about national security unless a steady supply of cheap oil is part og the national security package.

Yeah, I'd like to see him quit and declare himself a candidate for the presidency and hear what he really thinks. I can't think of any reason I'd vote for the guy but I'd at least like to hear something comeout of his mouth other tahn well articulated *lies* and *half truths*.

There, Rick, that might get ol' Teribus to come around and post on ot T's classic "Tropic of Cancedr" lenght posts. Hope T doesn't give me a big homework assignment....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:58 PM

Weeeelllll... I used to have a lot of respect for Powell. I've said so here several times and for a long time I would have supported him as a presidential candidate -- not because I agreed with his politics, but because he was smart, relatively moderate, and seeme dlike the kind of guy that can listen to both sides of the story and make a rational decision. 'Xactly what we need in a President. He did some less than savory things in the military, but that's the military; you don't get to pick and choose your orders.

HOWEVER -- the current administration is clearly banking on Powell's reputation to lend a scrap of credibility to their unsubstantiated claims, and Powell is going along with it. The good cop/bad cop routine, I'm afraid, has made me lose any kind of sympathy for anything Powell might say.

But I still think he's a damn sight smarter than pretty much anyone else in the inner circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

The UN security council is still meeting and here`s my prediction of what`s going to happen:

Bush and Powell will not get the necessary majority to attack Sadam, so Bush will decide to go it alone.

Tough shit Colin and George!-you see the inspectors`latest report unfortunately wasn`t incriminating enough this evening to clinch the plan of going to war with UN support.

As I said, Bush and Blair will go it alone. As soon as the reports start coming in about the people dying in Iraq, things will start backfiring for Bush and brown-nosed Blair. World opinion will quickly turn on the USA and GB and they`ll wish they never started it all.

Americans will realize they have they have once again made a great mistake on voting day and will feel ashamed (those who voted for him) for a while. However, history is easily forgotton and in a few years down the road Americans will vote yet again for another Bush (now tied up in Florida) as their President.

Any bets I`m wrong?


Watch this space!

JB

At the next election. Bush will be literally run out of the White House, kind of like his father, but even faster.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM

A military takeover of the U.S. is taking place. Powell is the highest-ranking military man in the cabinet, so he understands the logistics and intracies of what is going on PRECISELY. And he has CHOSEN to be there, so why are any of you surprised? I would be surprised if he DIDN'T stay onboard for the power-grab. Screw him.

The big event of the day (in my opinion) was Ashcroft talking about Bush as 'a blessing'. Messianic. And Bush didn't mention America or the U.S....he talked about 'the Homeland'. Soon, you will be questioning God and Government if you don't admit GWBush is the supreme govermental and spiritual ruler of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:20 PM

wheras Powell may have been a man of honor while he was in the military, he has now become a lying son of a bitch politician, a token spokesman, with no honor. IMHO the 'brains' behind this war are clearly Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and other signers and originators of the Project for the New American Century, see the Statement of Principals and signatures here http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:30 PM

I'm with you Rick. The man is intelligent, articulate courageous and loyal. I understand the arguments about integrity, but can you imagine the damage which would have been done had Powell resigned "on principle? Would you rather have Rumsfeld for SecState? An adult doesn't whine or resign when his boss chooses an alternate course. He stays in, does his job to the best of his abilities, so that the plan chosen can be executed in the best possible way. If Powell were to leave, Rumsfeld et al would have free sailing to their agenda. That would be a disaster to the US. Considering the number of people who are afraid of Hussein, ousting him should be a cakewalk. Bush and his "hawk" handlers are so politically clumsy, so lacking in integrity, that no one trusts them to do it right. Rumsfeld got up in front of the UN the other day and accused Germany of being like Libia and Cuba. I can't imagine that what he meant. He was trying to "shame" a powerful ally into agreement on a minor point with a playground taunt.

Hated guest, In spite of very limited resources and a small population, Switzerland is one of the strongest and trusted democracies on earth. There is no country more peace loving. They have had universal service for hundreds of years. Your other assertion is not worthy of comment.

I'll talk with ya Rick. I try to give the frantic, unsupported paranoia often spouted by Anon guests all of the attention it deserves.

I don't agree with your analysis McGrath, there was nothing new in the report. Everyone who spoke, demonstrated in their speeches that they comprehended the report. They all quoted the parts they liked. Though I dissagree with his stance, I enjoyed it when Straw trumped the Frenchman's "old country" play with "I speak for a VERY old country, founded by the French in 1066."

Bobert, Powell is in the position where he can best serve his country and the world. He has the loyalty and courage serve inspite of having to work with far less talented men..

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

Guest JB, I think the game of Good Cop Bad Cop is being played alright, but within the security council. They were all in agreement in November. Nothing has changed. Britain and the USA are putting the screws to Iraq, while France, Germany China et al are giving Saddam a way to save face. If Saddam doesn't cave in and soon, the war will happen, with the full support of the security council.

Watch THIS space :)

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:49 PM

What REALLY troubles me folks is that a number of pretty prominent Leaders and their henchmen are absolutely going against what we know would be their positions, if they WEREN'T getting a lot of pressure. We see it every day here in Canada. Jean Chretien (who Mr. Bush thinks is named Jean Crouton!) is squirming like a worm on a hook, and it looks verrrry bad. But what can he do? The Yanks have already demonstated a fair amount of muscle as far as tourists crossing the border (without hassle)

Look......I guess my point (and I'm willing to be convinced otherwise) is that Colin is ALSO up to his neck in pressure, but feels that he has to go along. He's a SOLDIER for goodness sake, so you'd think he'd send in the troops as a LAST resort.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:03 PM

I disagree, JtS... respectfully, of course... When a level headed and intelligent diplomat 'hangs in there' for a liscentious leader, the diplomat becomes tainted... Powell is good for the job as Bush's 'front man' IMO, because he brings the effective reasoning of a diplomat where there is precious little of the stuff... but I don't think the job is good for Powell's rep. I do think Powell could be a part of an humane and powerful foriegn policy, but I'm ashamed of our current government's agression and terrorism overseas, so I'm kinda sidelined here... All the best, ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:08 PM

Well, I wasn't talking about the report in here - there's another thread about Blix where that'd fit in. Nothing new, that's the point - they're getting on with the job, and things are moving forward as well as can be expected, and there's no reason to stop now, just because Bush has some timetable of his own.

But that doesn't belong in here, because this thread started out as about speaking style and suchlike. Theatre.

Powell is earnest and comes across as honest, even when it's pretty clear he isn't saying what he thinks. That's what diplomats do, and that's what he is these days. (And always was, so far as I can see, even in the army - that explains the My Lai cover up involvement, a loyal diplomat doing his job.) A bit like a lawyer with a difficult brief - businesslike and competent.

This BBC link gives a video of the main speakers. (Click on "Iraq's weapons: Full UN report and reaction".) A fascinating the contrast between the different styles.

Of the ones shown, the French delegate for me is by far the most eloquent orator, the others don't even try. The Russian one shows that the old wooden Soviet style of speaking at these occasions hasn't changed significantly - though he did make a sort of joke about St Valentine's Day at the end.

It's a pity they left out the "minor players", because I suspect that's where the best speeches, as theatre, would probably have been. And in fact in this case every country on the Security Council is important, because unless almost all the uncommitted ones vote with the USUK, there won't be that resolution to make the attack legal. That may not matter to Bush but it matters a hell of a lot to Blair. It could well be his political death blow.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 05:33 PM

Speaking as Colin's relative (another thread on that elsewhere) I lost faith in him when he made those remarks about Osama bin Laden and Saddam being allies on the strength of the most recent tape, when it was obvious to anyone that this is ridiculous -- even from the tape! He lost all his credibility in that moment. None of these other idiots ever had any credibility, but that was a hard moment for those of us who thought there was someone with some integrity in the place.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:09 PM

I lost all respect for Powell when he caved and went over to Bush. Yes, he can string a sentence together, etc., but he has lost all credibility, imo.

Rick, it must really be mind-boggling to see that going on up there. It is equally unreal here to see the mass consciousness quivering in fear while the shub and his posse run roughshod over our allies. The only hope I can see is in the people. One correpsondent, an Englishman living and reporting from Brussels, I think it was (on NPR today) was talking about it almost being political suicide for Tony Blair to continue with his support of bush. He, and all of the other commentators, seem completely blown away that over 500,000 people are expected to march in London, tomorrow.

My youngest daughter has grown up always saying there would be an American revolution in her adulthood. She is 25, going on 26 and now I wonder if she's not right.

I can't wait for Powell and the rest of them to be gone!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM

Damn it Peter! I KNEW you reminded me of someone famous! All this time I thought it was Sir George Martin......but now I see the resemblance.

I'll bet that's EXACTLY what I said when you first brought up the subject!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM

I'm sure that Powell is in a tough position and perhaps I should be thankful for whatever way he is able to temper Bush, but somewhere he has stepped over that line and for me has lost all credibility.   He is an eloquent speaker and I still believe him to have an excellent mind. Before all of this I differed with his views but there is nothing wrong with that. He seemed a man you could trust and one you could debate without anger.

All of that, for me, is gone now. He is simply an apologist and spokesman for the Bush administration. There is some point that a man must stand alone and face the situation. Powell has decided to perhaps "work from the inside" but if this is in fact the case, I believe he is wrong and has sold himself out in the process. I wanted to beleive he was stronger than that.........sadly, he's not.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

Rick: I think there is a great deal of "projecting" going on in this thread, or perhaps a lot of "mind reading." I do not believe Powell would continue to serve in Bush's cabinet if he disagreed with Bush's position as much as you folks feel he does. I think he is a string leader who believes everything he says, and fully supports the Bush administration. And not because he needs the job. He could have just about any job he wants and will probably have the top one when GWB finishes his 2008 term.

McGrath: Surely you don't think members of the Security Council were reading copies of Blix's report this morning! I would bet money marbles and chalk that they had it days in advance. That's why they can have prepared remarks ready.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

Actually, from the faces I'm not at all sure they did have copies of the report in advance. Straw and Powell looked gobsmacked as Blix went on, failing to deliver what they wanted.

And the commentators on the box - mostly defence and political correspondents - were all talking in those kind of terms, about how plans which had been drawn up in the expectation that Blix would say things which could be used plausibly to justify a move to war had been severely damaged. And they were commenting on ho wthye had actually seemed to be discarding prepared speeches, and scribbling notes as Blix went on.

Powell is a team player. I'm sure that he would see his own personal views as relatively unimportant when it comes to the crunch. A combination of a military chain of command way of looking at things, and a professional hired hand approach, like a lawyer. Or a senior Civil Servant. None of these would in the final analysis be likely to consider resigning even if they disagreed with the decision of the person whose job it is to make the decisions. It'd smack to them of mutiny or lack of professionalism.

In a career politician thinking like that would be the kind of cynicism that makes people cynical about politicians, but that's a different trade, with different expectations.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:46 PM

2008??!! Dear God say it won't happen! In all seriousness,DougR., I think Bush is committing political suicide with this. If he goes ahead and attacks Iraq without UN concensus, I don't think he has a prayer in'04. I think he has painted himself into a corner. What's he gonna do-say "never mind" and bring them all back home? He stands to lose a lot no matter what he does now.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM

Not necessarily. If he's smart he'll be ready to claim that it's all his doing that Saddam has been forced to cooperate with the inspectors, and that the place is free from weapns of mass destruction in the end oif it, and it was all worth it. Victiry without a shot being fired.

When Kennedy took the world to the brink of catastrophe in the Cuba crisis, and then tiptoed back, he was praised as a statesman, and there weren't too many critics.

Mind the few people who were really pissed off by his "retreat" may well have been the ones who shot him, but that's another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Richie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM

I have respect for Colin Powell. He has on several occasions gone against the administrations positions in the past two years.

As a former soldier and a man far more knowledgeable about the situation than we are, he has taken a position against Saddam and refuses to be manipulated by the outside pressures.

Just because he is against Saddam doesn't mean he's anyone's puppet as most of you have stated. There are many people (as I do) who support Powell and our leaders in this difficult time.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:53 PM

Power corrupts!

Maybe all this *world in crisis* has just gotten to Powell. No matter, he has crossed that line. His choice? Yeah... Too bad. Tough seeing a smart guy with credibility go down but he's not the first and won't be the last. The only problem now is there is no *voice of reason* left in the Bush adminsitration. Maybe that's why France, Russia, Germany, Belgium and China are steppin' up now? It ain't too good when the big dog gets out of control....

Ahhhh, I didn't hear Blix's report becasue I was at work but the network news, which is generally saying whatever the Bushfolk want them to say, say the Bush and Powell had a bad day at the office with Blix saying that Saddam was being a good little prisoner...

Hmmmmm? If that were true it would certainly seem to be departure from then last time when the day before the report he was saying that Iraq was coopertive but the next morning he told the UN that Saddam wasn't "getting it". Hmmmmm? Anyone figure that someone got to him last go 'round and that he fely he had to tell it right this time.

Incidently, it would seem that every big thing that the inpectors have asked for they've gotten.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM

The most recent edition of Liberal Opinion has a cartoon that depicts Cowboy Bush leaping around brandishing six guns in enthusiasm. He shouts, "Yee Haw! What're you waiting for?? Aren't you worried about a madman who has weapons of mass destruction and a heap of attitude?!"

France and Germany are standing there. One of them says soberly, "Yes, we are."

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Richie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 09:17 PM

When Cowbot Bush said he was going after terrorists and the countries that supported terrorism- all were in favor. When he follows through with his promise- he's a war monger. How easily we forget!

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 09:57 PM

It's hard to find a group I admire more than Bush and Powell and those guys, but here's one

"What's wrong?" he said, in the silence that followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:03 PM

Yeah. Switzerland. We should be more like them. Except for the part about being Hitler's bankers. And maybe we should economize in the food department too, like they do in Congo.

Give Jack a short stack

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM

Wonder what Bush thinks about "Helter Skeler"? Seem he went thru a little (or lot) of that himself. Women, cocaine, DUI, partying, ripping and running.... helter skelter....

Now all he does is eat pretzels and pass out from 'em....

Hmmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Richie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:20 PM

When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide,
Where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride, Till I get to the bottom and I see you again.

Do you, don't you want me to love you, I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you. Tell me tell me tell me come on tell me the answer, You may be a lover but you ain't no dancer.

Helter skelter helter skelter,                                     Helter skelter.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:20 PM

Possibly Doug. It's hard for me to get much of a read on what's going on behind the scenes with Powell. As I said twice earlier, my REAL point here is that I think he UNDERSTANDS what's goin on, and I was impressed with the way he spoke.....I certainly DON'T agree with the position he's taken, and (now get redy to go back a longgggg way) an American politician comes to mind....also articulate, compassionate....and forced to NOT be honest, for the good of the team.

Adlai Stevenson.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:28 PM

Don't you believe it, Bobert. GW's still on the bottle. The 'Pretzel' is just the mafia guy they keep around to kick GW's ass when he gets drunk and gets too close to the nuclear codes. As if he'd be able to operate the football anyway.

This thread is pretty encouraging. You folks are having to accept the loss of a hero and that's good. There is NOTHING good or redeeming about this administration. Your children and grandchildren are about to huff Sarin nerve gas and not be treated for it, and you will get to watch them die. But don't worry, there's a draft coming up. Plenty more lungs to go around. Powell was THERE when they blew up the chemical dumps 12 years ago...in-country, at least...and he's let 40,000+ DIE without pushing for treatment of the medical problems. So he's already a mass-murderer far beyond GW's pitiful 160 or so executions as Gov of Texas.

I mean DAMN! Powell was the 'good one' on GW's team.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:28 PM

Yeah, Rick. Except Adlai had more than a pair of two's...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:57 PM

Richie, what GW promised was to get the terrorists who did the crime. That was not Hussein.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Richie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:04 PM

Did Saddam support the terrorists or was that just US propaganda? Do we eally know what Saddam does?

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 12:28 AM

Richie, it seems nearly impossible that Saddam and bin Laden would deliberately team up. Saddam's biggest internal threat is the Islamic fundamentalists within his own country -- Saddam is a staunch secular ruler. On the other hand, I think the nicest thing bin Laden has called Saddam is "infidel." They have huge incompatibilities in their goals, beliefs and outlook on the world, and fundamentalist Muslims save their bitterest epithets and threats for non-fundamentalist regimes.

It's certainly possible that terrorists of Al Qaeda or other organizations are operating out of Iraq without Saddam's support or even explicit knowledge -- I'd say it's damn likely, really, since they appear to operate out of every other country, including the US, most of Europe, all of Africa and the mid-East, etc. And large portions or Iraq are under the control of the Kurdish rebels, protected by US and UK military forces. Said Kurdish rebels are fond of terrorist tacitcs themselves, so if Al Qaeda *is* operating out of Iraq, I'd personally start looking there first.

Postulating a link between is based on really ridiculous evidence -- namely one Al Qaeda member who may have received medical treatment in Iraq. You know, that's what doctors do; they heal people. If the same guy walked into a hospital in NYC, he'd be helped first and asked questions later if he was asked questions at all. If there were better evidence, we'd have heard it by now. GWB & crew are desperate to make the link to garner public support. They just don't have it.

So, I don't buy it. Saddam is a ruthless despotic ruler, but he's not stupid enough to hand weapons or information to fundamentalist enemies that would probably turn around and use them on HIM first.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:45 AM

I listened to both Hans Blix and Mohamed AlBaradei deliver their reports yesterday - the BBC's political commentators seemed to agree pretty much that in content both reports were fairly neutral.

They were followed by Syria, whose representative gave a good speach that concisely described the imbalance in approach to the UN's attitude to Israel compared to Iraq, the points made, however, would have carried a bit more moral weight were it not for the fact that his country has been supporting terrorist organisations and encouraging terrorist attacks inside Israel for decades.

The French representative trotted out his statement, in response to the reports of the two heads of the UN inspection teams, that could have been written sometime last week. Nothing of any real substance in it apart from the message that all is well and we can continue the game for another month. They fit in well with the UN in dealing with international conflict situations - one inept, glorious, failure after another, the only exceptions being when both have been dragged, heels kicking, by others and forced to see something through. Their credo seems constantly to be talk, sit back, do nothing.

MGOH commented on the applause that followed - applause also followed the Russian representatives speach - it was only after that, that the Chair (Germany) called the chamber to order, which he should have done earlier. Timing was perfect of course as his two main supporters had spoken - the job of the Chairman is to ensure impartiality.

The Spanish representative's speach was pertinent and her remarks addressed the inspectors reports.

Contrary to some comments above, I thought that Jack Straw spoke well. His puncturing of the patronising "old nation" reference made by the French was extremely effective. He also reminded the Council of their track record with regard to resolutions affecting Iraq, something to the effect of Iraq having completely ignored its obligations to the UN with regard to disarmament by 11 years, seven months and so many days.

Colin Powell brought that message to the fore even more so and reminded the Council that they exist to act - not merely talk. He did it well and brought the attention of everyone present to the crux of the situation. No waffling "pie-in-the-sky" instant remedies that will only ever be used as a means of excusing UN inaction - He did remarkably well.

The Russian again would have sounded a bit more convincing if the inconvenient matters of Chechnya and Iraq owing his country about 23 million dollars could be overlooked. But it should also be remembered that the country he represents has always been a bastion of freedom, democracy and for ever at the forefront as the champion of the rights of the individual - Right??

Had to leave shortly after as we were playing at a wedding.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:46 AM

The patronizing old nation remark was made by Donald Rumsfeld, and it was so obviously damaging that everyone had to pour honey over it at the meeting. Another example of the complete breakdown in American diplomatic strategy over the past few months.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 12:31 PM

GWB finishes his 2008 term

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Frankham
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 09:52 PM

I saw Colin Powell speak at a black church here in Atlanta. He was well-spoken but I came away with nothing of substance from his talk except about how he had come up through the military and for many black people, this must be inspiring.

However, he is a military man. For this, he has to believe in military solutions to problems. He parts company with Schwartzkoff and other military minds but is consistent with his mind-set. The problem we have today is that a military solution is a prescription for disaster regarding Iraq. No one will win. Democracy will not be instituted in Iraq mainly because the people don't want it. They may not want Saddam either but democracy can't be forced down anyone's throat. What we really need are effective cultural anthropologists to help our country understand other cultures and how they operate. It's a high context problem that attempts to be solved by low context thinking. The US administration doesn't understand Iraq.   It is operating on a WWII mentality of "good guys versus Hitler" when that's anachronistic and inapplicable to present day geo-politics.

No one is looking at Assad of Syria, Iran (do we really know much about that country?) or what is going on in Afghanistan, being run by war lords. North Korea? The US is not talking to them. How can this present adminstration be trusted to have any credible position on the Middle East? The distinctions between say the Sunni and the Shi'ites would be lost in the Bush   "Middle East policy". The prescription given as a military solution is adding fire to a burning building.

The United Nations is not perfect but is our only hope. Without it we have nothing to keep countries from going at it for what ever political reason they may have this week. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is just another military organization.

France and Germany I believe should be complimented for their restraint. They've been through world wars and know something that naive Americans haven't been able to fathom yet.

William "Tecumseh" Sherman said it best, "War is hell".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

Frank: "the UN is our only hope..." If so, God be with us! Please!

Jack the Sailor: let's check in after the elections in 2008 and see who is right, okay?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM

Frank:

Good post. Einstein said that " a problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it". Sound like you and Albert are on the same page.

I started a "Department of Peace" thread last year and these were some of the points I was trying to make in that thread.

The Bush folk have done a splendid jpb with their PR in keeping the opti0ons right in the center of the magnifying glass and it's good to keep in mind that there are other options that they won't even ley surface.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Politics: Colin Powell speaking now.
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

If you want someone really articulate, then try General Wesley Clark, (Ret.) General Clark became the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, on 11 July 1997. He was also the Commander-in-Chief, United States European Command. He was on Meet the Press this morning, and can that man talk and make sense. Compare him to Colin the Colon, who, as part of his "evidence" for Iraqi non-compliance to UN resolutions, quoted a plagiarized document by a college student, that was woefully out-of-date (and full of misspellings - a dead giveaway). Harry Belafonte was right about Powell . . .