BS: White Muslims...are you out there?

Subject: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: posterchild
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM

Am interested if there are any white or caucasian muslims out there. If so, how is life for you in post 911...do you still openly practice your faith?

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:14 AM

Interesting question posterchild.

I have seen statistics that may or may not be accurate, since it's difficult to nail anything down when it comes to religions, that less than 1% of American muslims are European in lineage. With the exception of the Balkans, Islam isn't a European religion.

pax

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

I call on Mudcat to delete the crap enumerated above. Explicit bigotry is not within the bounds of free speech. Allowing your forum to become a mouthpiece for hatred and religious intolerance is unforgiveable.

---

Previous message deleted. Contained only racist/bigoted comment. Joe Clone

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

well posterchild could also post her question on a forum located in Pakistan and get a better sample rate. Europe is also not the only area of the world with people of primarily caucasian descent.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,Amira from Brooklyn
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:28 PM

I am a secular, nonpracticing American Muslim born in the USA of Palestinian parents who emigrated from al-Quds (Jerusalem) during the Catastrophe. I would qualify as white in the sense that I have light skin and European features, but I would never call myself a White Muslim, as I perceive that as a racialist term contrary to all that is good in Islam. My life hasn't changed very much since 9/11, although I am just a little more wary than I had been before. I have heard various horror stories, but I do not personally know anyone who has been detained, and the only people I know who have been questioned are acquaintances at best. But among many in our community the fear is palpable. On the other hand most people I work or go to school with have no idea that I am a Muslim, a Palestinian, or even an Arab-American, especially since my family name, which ends in a vowel, is ambiguous. Some people presume I'm an Italian-American, and thus a Roman Catholic, both mistaken presumptions. And yes, I like folk music. Joan Baez is my favorite, all the more so because she has performed for free in Palestinian camps and has steadfastly refused to perform for settlers in occupied lands no matter much she has been offered. But that's not the only reason.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat, Amira from Brooklyn.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

Interesting that Islam is described as a non European religion. If you describe people's religion in terms of which tradition people grew up in (however nominally), Christianity would be the main religion of the British Isles. However, if you measure it in terms of attendance at worship, Islam is the main British religion - and has been for many years. It would not surprise me if the same was true of France.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

I just recently read a statistical breakdown of American Muslims by "race" (ie, according to the standards used by the government to label a person by race). But where did I read it? >:0 ??? Can't remember now.

The part I found interesting was that 30 or 35% (can't remember exactly which) of PRACTICING American Muslims are African American, and that the number of practicing American Muslims of Arab ancestry was actually pretty low--approximately the same % as African Americans? I'm not sure, but I think that was what the statistics showed. Damn, I wish I could remember where I just saw this.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

Interesting point, alanabit. And you can't go by where the religions originated either, since they both (Christianity and Islam) originated in the Middle East and not in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:00 PM

Webster: "Caucasoid: one of the major geographical varieties of human beings, including peoples of Europe, Africa, the Near East, India, etc., who are loosely characterized by tall stature, wavy hair, etc., loosely called the white race although it embraces many people of dark skin color."

In other words, an artificial, and essentially meaningless and useless, distinction between people.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,eavesdropper
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Please reinstate my previous missive. Are you people really afraid of opinions other than your own?

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

Odd argument, guest eavesdropper, considering this is what you had to say about forum censorship on 22 Feb 2003, in the "Cut and Paste Prohibitions" thread:

"After reading the above drivel...I categorize more than a few of you Thorazine riddled brain stem only non-entities on the same level as "BM". Or as an astute observer stated in another controversial thread, some of you disoriented fucks are "thread lifers", who have opinions about everything AND even a decent every month or so. As for Joe Offer and his henchmen, these people RUN this website...it SHOULD be their decision what is discussed. I am surprised that some discussions (?) are allowed to live as long as they do. So, yes, shape your drug and alcohol induced worthless asses or exit by the nearest door."

I would argue that your "missive" as you call it, be left in too. I like to know who the forum neanderthals are.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,bossman
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:36 PM

GUEST, you should spend more time in the sun. Light deprevation is not good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: EJ
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 04:40 PM

To GUEST,Gern...are you the "thread police"? Are you the BIG GUY who determines what free speech is comprised of. Best read the amendments again, pal. It is up to the reader to determine whether or not she or she wants to read a certain message...not an individual.
By chance, are you a poliician (one who makes all decisions for all others) or of the Baptist faith?

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: EJ
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

Sorry for the spelling...should be "politician"...I missed eavedropper's message...can anyone send it to me? I would like to make up my own mind about it.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 06:25 PM

I would guess most would assume that what I meant by "Islam isn't a European religion" it that, while there are significant numbers of Muslims living throughout Europe at this time, the vast majority are fairly recent immigrants, contract workers and their children.

I happen to occasionally attend mosque in Orlando, FL and have worked to develop a dialog between my church (Unitarian Universalist) and the local mosques.

As for thoe whole "white" arguement. Art is correct, I believe. The term doesn't mean much and has negative meanings to an increasing number of Americans.

Check out a world almanac to see the countries that have significant population of Muslims. When you do, you will see why there might be a "low" number of Arab Muslims compared to others in the U.S.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:27 AM

there are some areas of europe where islam is the dominant belief system, Albania being one that springs foremost to mind.

i work with the national probation service in england, with offenders carrying out community service sentences.

yesterday, myself & a work party carried out some tasks at a local mosque.

one of the mosque officials is white british, & it was he that we liaised with.

i've worked with members of the muslim community locally before now & always have been able to establish a constructive rapport between them & the work party memmbers.

as a professional in this field, its vital as part of offenders rehabilitation to enhance their cognitive & decision making skills, & also to debunk ignorance & ingrained prejudices based on racial & cultural stereotyping.

its been possible even since 9/11 to overcome racist difficulties by pointing out that amongst the moslem population in the area are serving policemen, doctors, firemen, soldiers, as well as owners of 'take aways' & corner shops 'open all hours' & to be able to portray them in a very positive light.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Grab
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM

Alanabit, that's true. However, those Muslims are generally British by immigration (or by the immigration of their parents), and are following the traditional religion of their family.

The part I find most interesting is that black Americans seem to be more likely to become Muslim than white Americans. Is this solely down to Louis Farrakhan and co canvassing for the religion? Or is there an aspect of it which fits closer with "black" culture than "white" culture?

(OK, flame me for saying "black" and "white" cultures, but one produced jazz, blues, soul and hip-hop, and the other produced classical music, music-hall, C&W and pop. You know what I mean, and the culture you're in doesn't necessarily follow your skin colour either. Say "African-origin" and "European-origin" if you prefer.)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:29 AM

Spot on Art.
This attempt to categorise large groups of people by particular aspects of there appearance is dangerous nonsense.
Homan beings behaviour the least genetically determined of any organism on this planet, and the assumption that you can tell some ones overall genetic make up from some physical feature such as skin colour is just plane wrong.
As a way of under mining this pernicious idea; when asked what "race" I belong to I say Left-handed. We are minority of about 20% of all peoples everywhere.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: EJ
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:58 AM

The issue of "white" and "peoples of color" is a reality. The aspect of race is important to the members of the groups. "Whites" do not identify themselves with Islam which offers a sense of belonging to "peoples of color" who adhere more to extended families and groupings. Will some please interperet what Pied Piper is saying?

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:37 AM

"White" is a color, or more accurately, the absence of a color. I am of primarily Northern European descent. If I put my hand on a blank piece of writing paper, it is clear that my skin is light brown. The contrast is less with parts of my body that are normally covered with clothing, but it is still there. The natural color of the human race is shades of brown. The delusion that those with lighter skin colors are somehow better is just that. Sorry if you don't like it.

Islam is a religion. It originated in the Arabian Peninnsula, among members of the allegedly "white" race, and had roots in Judaism, also founded by "white" people. It now has adherants all over the world, and Moslems come in all shades of brown, including light "European" brown. By the classic definition, Osama bin Laden is "white". Sorry if you don't like that either.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

"With the exception of the Balkans, Islam isn't a European religion"

It certainly is is now in this part of the world, which is a long way from the Balkans. (And in any case the Balkans have always been in Europe so far as I know.)

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:00 AM

In answer to EJ, no I am not the Big Guy (??!), a politician or the thread police. I simply oppose overt bigotry, such as was magnificently exemplified by the Guest diatribe that you didn't even read. I asked Mudcat to delete such outrageous offensiveness, and they did. You do not have any free speech rights that defend racist attacks or religious malignment, any more than you are free to slander or endanger others. Those seeking such forums have any variety of forums to spew upon. Mudcat has a tradition of balancing expression with a reasonable degree of respect for others. If you disagree, why not see how many others agree with you? Start a thread asking if users prefer an 'anything goes' format where racism and baiting are welcome. I know the neighborhood well enough to predict that your idea will get roundly dumped. In the meantime, I will continue to speak out against hatred, and would like to hear others do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,Abdullah The Mullah
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM

I agree with an earlier correspondant this shite should be thrown off of Mudct

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

Islam in America can be traced back to the early 1600's to a small proportion of slaves brought over. More recently, long before Farrakhan, Malcolm X had a lot to do with its spread among Americans of African origin. This website has some interesting history in a format for teachers to use: click

kat

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: posterchild
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 04:01 PM

PEOPLE, PEOPLE, PEOPLE...............please get back to the issue at hand. Which started out to be "White Muslims, how is life for you since 911?" Try to keep "black/white" out of it.

Gern, ease up...even people who don't think like you are entitled to their opinions.

Abdullah The Mullah(?)...what is a shite?

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 04:33 PM

If you want to suggest that a racist or generally vicious post should be flushed away it's probably better to do it through the help forum rather than in the thread itself.

---

complaints about problem message should be sent by personal message to Joe Offer and/or Pene Azul - preferably both.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,NoLongerMuslim
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 03:15 PM

My family (white) no longer outwardly shows any ties to Islam. In fact, we relocated because of fear of harm from our neighbors. If the US goes to war with Iraq, no Muslim, white or black, will be safe. God help us if this happens, Allah sure as hell can't.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 07:17 PM

If worth remembering that one in twenty Iraqis are Christians anyway, mostly Catholics. Given that the Pope has denounced this as an unjust war, maybe the racists and bigots will be coming after Catholics, white, black or brown, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:25 PM

My niece, a redhead with very pale skin, converted to Islam a few years after she married a Muslim. She is now more active in the faith than he is.

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 10:57 PM

"With the exception of the Balkans, Islam isn't a European religion"

It certainly is is now in this part of the world, which is a long way from the Balkans. (And in any case the Balkans have always been in Europe so far as I know.)



McGrath, I clarified my remarks a little later on as said that Islam have become coomon throughout much of Western Europe, primarily through immigration.

And I think that my initian statement made it clear that I consider the Balkans to be part of Europe

____________

As for why so many African Amerians are Muslim, please remember that many countries in north and north central Africa have significant Muslim populations. While the Nation of Islam has had a significant impact, there have been immagrants from Africa as well as the Caribbean who have added to the mix.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 11:16 PM

I hope this comes out all right - this is based on the 1990 U.S. Census:

U.S. Muslim Population Table

Ethnic Grouping    Population 1000 (1990) Percent of Total Muslim Population Definition of Terms

African-American    2,100   42.0    African-Americans: Those persons of African descent native to the United States of America.
South Asians       1,220   24.4    South-Asians: Those of Indian/Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, or Afghan descent now residing in the United States as citizens or permanent residents.
Arabs                620   12.4    Arabs: People from Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle East and North Africa who are permanent residents or citizens of the United States.
Africans             260    5.2    Africans: People from the African continent who are citizens or permanent residents of the United States
Iranians             180    3.6    Iranians: People of Persian descent, usually from Iran, who are citizens or permanent residents.
Turks                120    2.4    Turkish: People of Turkish descent who are citizens ro permanent residents.
South East Asians    100    2.0    South East Asians: People of Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Indochina, or the Phillippines.
American Whites       80    1.6    American Whites: Those of West European descent, who are native to the United States.
East Europeans         40    0.8    East Europeans: People from various regions of Eastern Europe.
Other                280    5.6    Other: All other groups.

Totals             5,000    100

Subject: RE: BS: White Muslims...are you out there?
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 12:09 PM

I wondered about alanabit's suggestion about Christain and Muslim numbers in Britain, and I have found this. Anglican attendance predictions In 2001, the number of Muslims was still less than that of practising Anglicans. That ignores all the other denominations. so we aren't yet in the condition described across the island, though in certain areas, it may be true.

Penny