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Drop-D; wrong all these years?

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ddw 30 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM
kendall 30 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM
Clinton Hammond 30 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM
Don Firth 30 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM
JedMarum 30 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM
Rick Fielding 30 Mar 03 - 06:07 PM
Amos 30 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM
Homeless 30 Mar 03 - 07:51 PM
Guy Wolff 30 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM
ddw 30 Mar 03 - 09:05 PM
catspaw49 30 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM
ddw 30 Mar 03 - 09:17 PM
Rick Fielding 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM
Phil Cooper 30 Mar 03 - 11:22 PM
katlaughing 30 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM
Benjamin 31 Mar 03 - 12:44 AM
JedMarum 31 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM
JedMarum 31 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM
Rick Fielding 31 Mar 03 - 03:07 PM
JedMarum 31 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM
Guy Wolff 31 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM
Night Owl 31 Mar 03 - 08:01 PM
JedMarum 31 Mar 03 - 09:41 PM
Bobert 31 Mar 03 - 09:53 PM
MarkS 31 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM
Benjamin 31 Mar 03 - 10:08 PM
Bobert 31 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM
Anglo 01 Apr 03 - 10:31 AM
Night Owl 01 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM
Anglo 01 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM
JedMarum 02 Apr 03 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 02 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM
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Subject: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: ddw
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

For years I've been using what I always heard referred to as drop-D tuning -- i.e., standard tuning with the bass E lowered two frets. I always used it in the keys of A or D and it gives a wonderful, full bass line.

Today I was watching a video on slide guitar with Keith Wyatt and he was demonstrating what he called drop-D, but he lowered the treble E. I realize it is effectively the same tones, just in different register, but I had never heard of doing it that way.

Is this news to anybody else, or has my troglodyte existance just caught up with me?

cheers,

david


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

If I understand you, that would give you a Dobro sound, and, the first 4 strings on a 5 string banjo. I find it easier to find tunes with the guitar tuned that way.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

To my knowledge, dropped D is either bass dropped or treble...

DOUBLE dropped D is both...

:-)


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM

I've always heard that "Dropped D" meant tuning the 6th string down to D, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM

I am not sure Keith has both oars in the water.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:07 PM

Dropped D......Bass down to D

Double D.......bass and treble down to D

DADGAD......self-explanitory

Dropped GUITAR....big trouble!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

Rick:

I have always used a variant which has the same pattern as an E chord a whole tone lower -- in other words, drop the low E to low D, the G down a half to F#, and the B and high E to A and D respectively, which makes an open D chord that sounds dobro-ish.

You ever seen that anywhere else?

A


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Homeless
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:51 PM

Amos-
I've seen that tuning specified in a tab for "Tangled up in Blue" and in lessons for playing slide.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

Amos that tuning is sometime called "Vestable". The great thing about it for a banjo player is that the intervels between the strings is the same as G tuning ( Also known as "SPANISH" tuning ) but just one string over . What you did on the first string in G tuneing works on the Second string in D Vestable.The same with chords. All thoughs banjo chords work one string in .. Cool realy . Also DADGAD has the same intervel as "Saw Mill" tuning or G SUS 4 of banjo fame in the same way .
DDW that double D tuning is great for "Crazy Man Michiel" "Angle From Mongomery" and "Peacefull Easy feeling "... All the best to all here, Guy


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: ddw
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:05 PM

Thanks all. The concensus seems to be what I thought. I guess you could call KW's tuning name a technically correct description, but in standard parlance it should be called something else. Maybe a "high drop-D" or something like that.

Amos -- that's an open D, very common for slide guitar players — particularly electric players. It wasElmore James's favorite —— a great tuning.

cheers

david


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

If you're playing like, uh, really bad, you go with the Dropped Pants Tuning.....No one pays any attention to how bad you're pickin' if your pants are around your ankles.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: ddw
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:17 PM

Maybe that's your experience 'Spaw, but if I tried it probably nobody would notice....

david


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Amos, regular 'open D' or "Vestapol" as Guy mentioned is probably THE most common open tuning. I learned it from one of the most generous of the travellin' folkies...Tom Rush.

Dobro tuning is GBDGBD.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:22 PM

I saw another guitar player in a Chicago area group called Mississippi Flanagan (group name, not guitarist's name). He also dropped his high E to D to play some slide. I thought it was an easy way to get some open G tuning riffs without messing with the lower strings.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM

Dropped guitar, huh....very phunny, Rick!

Dropped pants, indeed, Spaw!


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Benjamin
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:44 AM

Open D and G tunings (Vestapol and Spanish) are very common for bottle neck guitar.
Just dropping the G string down to F# is the lute tuning.
Then there is dropped D which as far as I know is the bass string.
Tuning the low E to D and the A to G is dropped G.
The lute tuning and dropped D are the only two tunings other than standard that I spend any kind of considerable time working with now.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM

I use that open D major tuning Amos - Vestapol, as I see it is called. I use it on my normal 6 string string mostly for fooling around at home ... but I use that tuning on a high strung guitar (Nashille Tuning) and I use it quite a bit. I set up my Martin Backpacker with that tuning ... it has two distinct qualities; 1) strumming chords for accompaniment it has an almost ukelele sound (or maybe mando when it's capoed up high) 2) I finger pick and play a melody on the fourth, thrid and second strings - that effect is cool because the 4, 3 strings being an octave higher then they ought to be give a pretty, music box sort of tone, then the high notes of the melody hit the 2 string which is an octave lower but still in the pretty music box sound range -- kinda turns your head a bit.

I like the fact that my limited banjo playing left hand fits neatly inside the 2 - 5 strings, that is my G tuning banjo chords and scales are all laid out in the inside four strings - BUT i get the added advantage of having that lower part of the scale when I use the 6th string. As a guitar player, I've always wished for a 6 string banjo - and I don't mean a guitar laid out on a banjo body - I mean a 5 string banjo, with a sixth string added to the bottom to give you the lower notes ....


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM

I believe I actually came across such a banjo at the 12th Fret in Toronto. I mentioned to Rick when we were there about a year ago, but I'm not sure he was convinced.

The instrument was an antique, I believe German made (but I could be wrong about that). It had a 5th string in the normal location - but it had 5 strings at the head and nut. It was not in playable condition, and no one in the store at that time knew much about it ... but I was convinced that the purpose was to add the lower string - giving you the instrument I described in my post above.

I tried to tune the instrument that way, but it was missing a string, and it was a bit too out of whack to actually play (action too low, strings buzzing on neck).


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:07 PM

Jed, Sonny Osborne recorded many songs with a six string banjo (as you describe)

Some of the songs were:

Up this Hill and Down. You Aint the Kinda Woman I Wanted (but yer the kinda woman I got!)

The Osbornes were already getting a lot of flack because of their use of electric bass. (this was in the early seventies) When Sonny started playing his six string, many traditionalists stopped being fans. A few years later, when he had his first "Gitjo" made, they practically passed out!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

Rick, you're a banjo player; what do you think? Don't you sometimes wish you had that lower string? Or am I just a damn guitar player stuck in the banjo's first position!


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM

Rick thanks for the proper spelling of Vestipol,
          Jed I would love a banjo set up like that for work in D . My son just got a Novax electric that has 5 regulr guitar trings and 3 bass strings . Now tuning THAT open could be alot of fun. If it wasnt such an expensive ax and he wasnt worried about the neck I would be fooling with it ..All the best , Guy


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Night Owl
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:01 PM

thinking I've been "wrong all these years" as well here

Is DGDGBD "open G" and if not what is it??

(neat thread ddw...thanks all for the info above there)


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:41 PM

By the way, I use Drop-D pretty regularly. It is easy enough to adjust that one string, even on the fly - and the bas line options are really exciting. Besides, my big ol' Larrivee really has the voice for that low D! I only use it when I'm playing in D, I don;t suppose it would offer much advantage otherwise ...

But switching to a Vestipol tuning on-stage is not for the faint of heart! In fact, that's a downright problem if you're going to swith back too. When I've done it on-stage, I've planned it carefully, and always made it the last song of the set. If I did it regularly, I'd have a secnd guitar handy for that purpose - but then you just get into too damn many instruments. 1 Banjo and 1 guitar are already as much as I care to mess with, add in harminca/holder, flatpicks, water, capos, electronic tuners, SH*T! That's a lotta gear for folk music!!


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:53 PM

Well danged. I thought that dropping both the 1st and 6th strings down to a D was a "D model". Am I wrong? I thought that dropped D was just droppin' the 1st to D.

Either way, I play "Rollin' and Tumblin'" in what I have thought was a D model (1st and 6th down to D). I love this tuning, especially since ya bring the 5th down and you're in G and can do some bottleneck. Then capo up to the 2nd and bottle neck in A...

If this ain't D model, someone please tell me and tell me how to tune to get D model. But don't get too technical.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: MarkS
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

Somewhere along the line I thought that dropping the treble E to a D was known as a "D modal" tuning.
Any thoughts?
Mark


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Benjamin
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:08 PM

NightOwl, the tuning you mentioned is an open G tuning. It's also sometimes refered to as the spanish tuning. I'm not sure why, I've never come across any spanish music that uses this tuning.
Benjamin


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM

Mark S;

I'm with you and asked the same question...

Benjamin:

Well, remember that lots of Calipso players were playing open tunings on their "Hawian" giutars (National Steels with the Hiwaain palm tress) during the 30's. Open G wwas considered by the old blues guys "Spainish" tuning. When Neal Lomax asked Muddy Waters about his tuning in the "Plantation Recordings" Muddy said "Span-ich". He probably was just repeating what Son House had told him and didn't have a clue how it might relate to Spain....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:31 AM

"Spanish" tuning is open G, DGDGBD, so called because it was the tuning required for the published music of the popular parlor tune Spanish Fandango, from the mid-late 19th cent. It went into tradition, sometimes as "Spanish Flangdang" or the like.

"Vestapol" is a corruption of "Sebastopol" which I believe was a piece of published music which required the Open D tuning.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Night Owl
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM

thanks for the info Benjamin and Anglo....sorry to "thread creep" from Drop D.    bg


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM

Well, to come back to the topic, Drop D or Dropped D is taking _only_ the bass string down. That seems to have been established above, and is certainly the case. Years ago Joe Hickerson came up with this (as close as I recall):

Folksingers, proud and young, when you run your E string down,
Don't go down to funky D, it'll make you sing off key.

To the tune of Gordon Bok's Bay of Fundy, of course singing the last note flat.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:39 AM

... and where would Steven Still's "4 & 20" be without Drop-D? I've also been playing with Tim Hardin's "Reason to Believe" with Drop-D. I play Kim C's song "Stonewall of the West" with Drop-D and I wrote a few with Drop-D.

... just to name a few.


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Subject: RE: Drop-D; wrong all these years?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM

Saddam's favourite tuning ..........



.....................



B. A. G. D. A. D.


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