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Subject: Question about Byker Hill From: Peter Kasin Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:11 PM In the song Byker Hill, the first verse goes "If I had another penny, I would have another gill." What is a gill, and is it pronounced as in a fish gill, or as in "Jill." I've heard it pronounced both ways by different singers.Thanks. I just want to know what I'm singing about! :-). Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:12 PM Gill, pronounced Jill. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: michaelr Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:57 PM Hi Peter -- as I understand it, a gill is an archaic liquid measure equal to about one quarter of a pint. I first came across it in the song "Rare's Hill" which you will find on the Greenhouse CD "I Lie Awake". And when we got to Rare's Hill the laddie said to me We can't go home tonight, my dear, it's far too late, you see But the night is warm and in my pooch I have another gill And we can lie down here content at the back of Rare's Hill And then he poured a nip apiece to quiet all alarm When I awoke in the morning we were locked in each other's arms He handed me the bottle, another glass to fill And I drank his health and store of wealth at the back of Rare's Hill Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:16 PM Hardly archaic; (fractions of) a gill are still the standard measure for spirits in the UK. Because of wartime legislation of nearly a century ago, however, the standard spirit measure in England is, to my family's lasting regret (we live in England now) significantly smaller than the Scottish standard. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Jon Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:51 PM I'm not sure you are right there Malcolm. 1/6th gill (or 1/24 pint) seemed to be the standard "single" measure in England and Wales but I think that this is one area that did become metric. Wherever I go, spirit is measured as 25ml (or double/ 50ml) which I think is larger than the old 1/6 measure. The only exception I can think of is a pub that has, within the last month, upped the measures to 35ml. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,celtaddict Date: 06 Apr 03 - 11:53 PM The "gill" unit of measure also is prominent in "The Barley Mow" and in the more recent "A Bottle of the Best." I am not at home to check, but think "Best" might be by Andy M. Stewart; Ed Miller sings it and it has a line that "If you spill a gill, you know I will, I'll drink it off the floor." |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Yorkshire Tony Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:26 AM I remember as a child my grandmother referring to a half pint as a gill, as distinct from the official gill which is a quarter pint. So there appears to have been some regional variation. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Peter Kasin Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:22 AM Thank you all. That answers it. Very much appreciated. Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: DMcG Date: 07 Apr 03 - 05:33 AM Maybe I'm showing my age too much, but I remember chanting in my primary class in 1959: Four gills, one pint, Two pints, one quart, Four quarts, one gallon, Eight pints, one gallon. Two gallons, one peck, Four pecks, one bushel, Eight bushels, one quarter. (Who says you did learn binary arithmetic in those days?) |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Pied Piper Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:44 AM I think a spirits were served in 1/6 of a gill not 1/5 (Scotland), which neer as damn it is 25ml. PP |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Mr Red (having designed weighning machines) Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:46 AM The gill is still a legal measure and FWIW it is illegal to sell overmeasure in English (and Welsh) pubs because of the drink drive laws. Dunno about Scotland. When I worked at W&T Avery we discussed weighing beer at the pump a means of dispensing correct measure and gave-up because of having to measure temperature and calculating (without embedded chips at the time). But it would have solved the "pint with or without froth" argument. If you can prove the froth makes the measure up to one pint there is no argument. If you can't the liquid has to reach the measuring line. Breweries have forgotten the legal battles that have ensued over the years on three occasions in my lifetime. Anyone brave enough to argue with the landlord? With cider some just serve short measure and dare you to say anything. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Jon Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:03 AM Just tried the maths. 1/6 of a gill comes out around 23.67ml so we got 5.6% extra free where pubs moved over to metric ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Jon Date: 07 Apr 03 - 07:22 AM Just wondering, following on from Mr Red's comments. Wouldn't the density of beer decrease with a rise in temperature? Perhaps by selling beer very cold, we could actually be getting more of the product? Mind you, perhaps if they did sell some lagers warm enough to taste, people may realise how bad it is. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: RiGGy Date: 07 Apr 03 - 08:42 AM Bottle o' the Best was masterfully written by newsman, Jack Foley Riggy |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: belfast Date: 07 Apr 03 - 09:14 AM The spirit measure in Ireland (both north and south) is also larger than that in England - 35ml, which is just less that a quarter of a gill, I think. Some years ago I was with a friend in a London pub. She ordered a whiskey and, when it arrived, looked with some despair at the glass. "Where I come from," she informed the barman "that would be called a dirty glass." |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Peter from Essex Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:33 PM Spirits are now sold in metric measures. A gill is still a legal measure for beer although I have never heard of it being used. From context most dialect usage seems to refer to a larger measure than a quarter pint. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Schantieman Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM In the song The Barley Mow, part of the chorus (well, it's mostly chorus, really) goes: Gallon Half gallon Pint pot Half pint Gill pot Half gill Nipperkin and the brown bowl... ...which seems to confirm it as 1/4 pint - which is what I learned at school, too! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Schantieman Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:00 PM ...And why does Martin Carthy sing a different tune from everyone else? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:11 PM .... 'cos he was full to the gills at the time.....? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: nutty Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM I have a recording of Martin and Norma singing BIKER BILL AND WALTER SHAW. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Peter from Essex Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM I know of at least three different tunes. I can't remember what Martin sings, is it different from all of them? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Ed. Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:14 PM Peter, You'd have to let us know which three tunes you do know, before we could answer that! From the notes to Martin Carthy's Byker Hill album: "The tune of Byker Hill sung here is not the one sung traditionally. It is a Northumbrian dance tune in 9/8, unusual in that instead of being divided into three threes as are most other 9/8 tunes, it is divided in three twos and one three and appropriately called The Drunken Piper. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM For more on the tunes, see this previous discussion: Byker Hill: background info anyone? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Celtaddict Date: 07 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM Thanks, Riggy. I can recognize the voice I hear a song in, mentally, but not who wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Peter from Essex Date: 07 Apr 03 - 05:18 PM Ed - Three tunes that I have heard: 1. as sung by Johnny Handle (and Pete Coe) 2. Off She Goes 3. as sung by Young Tradition |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:42 PM The latest version (and a cracker to boot!) I have is performed by local boy Brian Johnson (of AC/DC) on the Northumbria Anthology (20 CDs of traditional music from the North East of England) It's an expensive collection at 150 quid, but worth it. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: toadfrog Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:32 PM The way I heard was: 2 ounces=1 jack 2 jacks =1 gill 2 gills= 1 cup 2 cups = 1 pint, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Peter Kasin Date: 08 Apr 03 - 01:12 AM Very interesting discussion! The two versions I've heard are from The NexTradition (Alison Kelley and Ken Schatz), and the Mudcat's own Dave Swan. "Biker Bill and Walter Shaw." Good stuff, nutty! |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: greg stephens Date: 08 Apr 03 - 08:39 AM The gill is technically a quarter pint, but the word is still in general use as a euphemism for a considerably larger quantity of liquid. If I run into someone and say "Do you fancy a gill, let's go into the George", it would be very surprising if we only drank a quarter of a pint. This is analogous to the phrase "how about a quick half"...which we all know is neither quick nor a half. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,alice newton Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM There were two pits in Walker The Ann Pit on Mitchell Street where my grandfather was kiled March 8th 1908 The Jane pit that was adjacent where the Jubilee club stands now |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Ned Ludd Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:07 PM For the record, in Outlane near Huddersfield where I was allowed to grow, we referred to a gill of milk at our infants school, which was half a pint and my Dad also used the term for a half of beer and went out for a 'couple of gills' meaning of course, about eight pints! |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Fullerton Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:10 AM The tune used in Mr. Carthy's version is, I believe, based on on the tune Dorrington Lads. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM The DT version seems to be lacking a verse. Its one that goes ??? gets half a penny, ??? gets half a crown ??? gets five & sixpence Just for riding up & down. Anyone know it? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:59 PM please ignore last q. i just found variations of missing verse in closed thread. also found variation of the 'pig' verse: Geordie Thompson had a pig And he hit it with a shovel and it danced a jig All the way to Byker Hill It danced the Elsie Marley. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:01 AM anyone know who wrote the song? & when? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Shields Folk Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:55 AM the coal cutter gets half a penny, the deputy gets half a crown the overman gets five & sixpence Just for riding up & down |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: yrlancslad Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:17 PM Officially in the UK a gill (pronounced "jill")is a quarter of a pint but growing up in Lancashire I never heard it referred to as anything other than a half pint(always in the pub) as in," 'ere gie us a gill luv" |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Terry K Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:27 PM My A L Lloyd version curiously calls it "Walker Shore and Byker Hill" on both the LP sleeve and on the LP itself, but even more curiously he sings it as "Walker Hill and Byker Shore". He wrote his own sleeve notes of course and doesn't credit a writer, but says that "Versions .... were published as long ago as 1812". (It may not have made the charts as there was some competition at the time). cheers, Terry |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 18 Oct 05 - 09:58 AM 'but even more curiously he sings it as "Walker Hill and Byker Shore". ' very odd- i wonder what he'd been drinking?? or was it mish eard lyrics? 'walk the hill then bike ashore' perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 18 Oct 05 - 10:00 AM sounds sort of 'kipperish'! |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 18 Oct 05 - 12:31 PM I remember a chant from the footie back in the early 70s at St. James' Park when one section of the crowd in the Leazes end shouted "Byker!" and another section replied with "Walker!" Was anyone a member of(or even rememberer of) the Leazes End Choir? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM Again, different from the DT version, I've heard the 'Geordie Charlton' verse sung as: Geordie Charlton, he had a pig. He hit it with a shovel and it danced a jig. All the way to Bullman쳌fs Rig. To the tune of Elsie Marley. also he's sometimes 'Geordie Thompson' |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Young Hunting Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:53 PM GUEST,Jon Wouldn't the density of beer decrease with a rise in temperature? Perhaps by selling beer very cold, we could actually be getting more of the product? There was a book some years ago called something like 100 Ways of Saving Petrol. One of those ways was - always buy your petrol when it is cold in the pump because otherwise it will be expanded in the measure and you will be paying for less actual petrol. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Kampervan Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:10 AM Byker Hill - introduced by The Wlsons as the 'pig-beating shanty' |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Keinstein Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:05 AM Volume expansivity of water is 2.1e-4/K, that of alcohol about 1e-3/K. So assume that beer is a little above water- say 2.5e-4/k. "Cold" beer won't be freezing, say it's 5C, and British "warm" beer is served a little below room temperature- say 15C. To the temperature difference is about 10 degrees. The volume expansion will be 2.5e-3 or a quarter of 1%, about 1.5ml in a (UK) pint glass. Just enough to drown a mosquito. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: webby Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:41 AM re Barley Mow I always understood it to be The Gallon The Half gallon Quart-pot Pint-pot Half-pint Gill-pot Half a gill Quarter gill Nipikin and a dram more Heres good luck etc re Byker I was taught The pitman he gets one and six The Deputy gets half a crown The Overman gets four and six And all for walkin up and down and after working many years down the pits in Warwickshire four and six was about four bob more than most of them were worth |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Greg B Date: 24 Sep 07 - 02:25 PM When I first heard Byker Hill, I had a mondegreen experience, hearing it as 'Bike Her Hill and Walk Her Shore,' which made no bloody sense at all, but what the hell... |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Snuffy Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:33 AM Then I'll dance down that Walker Shore And sail the Grey Funnel Line no more. Can't have been unintentional, can it? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Greg B Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM That explains the chap with the bicycle riding down the gang-plank. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM Less of the archaic - I learned gills at school, along with rods, poles, perches, acres, ounces, pounds, feet yards, inches - ALONGSIDE the meter, centimeter and all that stuff. And of course corespondents are correct - just go into any British pub and look at the optics! Cheers, Norman |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:01 PM A variation verse is Poor coal cutter gets a shilling Deputy gets half a crown Overman gets five and sixpence Just for riding up and down Here's a choir who're singing it with a hard G http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnQorEl6uzk |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Jack Blandiver Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:34 PM Here's a choir who're singing it with a hard G That's truly awful. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:47 PM Well they're furriners - p'raps they don't know how to pronounce it? |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Jack Blandiver Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:50 PM I'm not talking about the pronunciation. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM Tee-Hee! |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Jack Blandiver Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM Hell, listen to me! Sniffing at an American choir for having the audacity to sing one of my native songs! For shame! So - sing on ye merry songsters & Glee-men of Michigan; I'm sure there's a drop of the old blood somewhere in there... Here's my version: Sedayne - Byker Hill (Alpha) |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:36 PM "You can bike from Byker to Walker, but you've got to walk from Walker to Byker" (local saying, explaining the geography to strangers). |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Gurney Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:05 AM Snuffy, it is 'I'll dance on down that walk-ashore, and sail the grey funnel line no more.' Gang-plank. I asked Cyril. Long time ago. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 10 Mar 09 - 08:12 AM As a mondegreen, I've often heard it as 'I'll dance on down and walk ashore, and sail the grey funnel line no more.' |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Riggy Date: 10 Mar 09 - 05:44 PM Got to actually live in Byker in late '71 with Ray Tremble and his mum. He told me that Walker was actually an under-sea coal pit that ran out from a shaft on the land. Hence "shore". But couldn't have been near Byker Hill, as that was quite a l-o-n-g ways from the seashore. Still tryin' to figger it out ... Riggy |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Rifka Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:42 AM I lived on Welbeck Road in Walker, across from St. Anthony's Church in the late 80s. Behind the church was a desolate and newish parade of shops (very grim indeed). Byker was by then a housing development up the road, back towards Newcastle. |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST,Maurice Date: 30 Mar 11 - 11:03 AM Everyone seems to sing diferent words 9silightly) to the ones I learned as a very young boy in the late 1950s. The bit that anoys me is "all the way to Walker Shore" which should be "All the way to Duncan's rigg" real place and rhymes with pig. And it's "scad" it with a shovel not hit it. Byker Hill If I had another penny I would have another gill I would have the piper play The bonny lass of Byker Hill Ch Byker Hill and Walker Shore, Collier lads for ever more, Byker Hill and Walker Shore, Collier lads for ever more When I first came to the dirt I had no breeks nor no pitshirt Now I've gotten two or three Why Walker Pit's done well by me The pitman and the keelman trim They drink bumble made from gin Then to dance they do begin To the tune of Elsie Marley The poor coal cutter gets a shillin' the deputy gets half a crown The owerman gets five and sixpence, just for riding up and down Geordie Charlton, he had a pig He scad it with a shovel and it danced a jig All the way to Duncan's rig To the tune of Elsie Marley - |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: Mr Happy Date: 25 Apr 13 - 10:49 AM Tune borrowed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w5JlDn9WCw |
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Subject: RE: Question about Byker Hill From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM In Manchester my grandad always referred to a half pint of beer as a gill. |
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