Robin Hood ballads

Subject: Robin Hood ballads
From: Hester
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM

I know that the earliest extant medieval Robin Hood ballads (i.e., the Potter, the Monk, & the Gest) were probably spoken-word pieces, rather than songs. However, I wonder if some of the later ballads associated with tunes, (e.g Arthur a Bland, etc), have been recorded in a collection by anyone?

I'm aware of Bob Franks' modern "talking blues" of "A Little Gest of Robin Hood".

Also, I have the Estampie CD "Under the Greenwood Tree"; however I find the arrangement of the ballads there to be far too influenced by classical music conventions. In the same vein, I also have The Sherwood Consort's performance of "Le Jeu de Robin et Marion".

I'm looking for earthier, folkier performances of the traditional Robin Hood ballads -- something in the style of Anne Briggs' version of Thorneymoor Woods:

A poacher's life is the life for me,
A poacher I will always be
Fol de rol, tu ra la, dae!

Can anyone suggest particular recordings?

Oh, and while we're on the topic, Raggytash (who has a much different view of Robin than I) is looking for another Robin Hood song:

>>>A more recent song which is possibly quite accurate had the line
"the dirty robbin' bastard that he was" possible a good deal more accurate than him fishing out of Scarborough!
Sorry I cannot recall more of the song perhaps a separate thread might bring it to light. I heard it in folk club in manchester in the 70's<<<

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM

Steeleye Span does a folk-rock version of "Robin Hood and the Pedlar" on the album All Around My Hat. Fun for all.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:01 PM

Tim Laycock and Tony Rose have both recorded cracking versions of 'Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford'.

Good luck with your search, Hester...I'm quite fond of the little green-clad scamp...I mean Robin not Raggytash!!

All the best.........Harry Basnett.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Anglo
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM

Ed McCurdy recorded an LP (produced by Kenny Goldstein, Riverside RLP 12-810, 1957) with his sung versions of ballads alternating with ballads that were narrated by Michael Kane. Guitar accompaniment by Mudcatter Frank Hamilton. The ballads are:
        1.        Robin Hood's Birth
        2.        Robin Hood and the Fifteen Foresters
        3.        Robin Hood and Little John
        4.        Robin Hood Rescues Will Stutly
        5.        Robin Hood and Maid Marion
        6.        Robin Hood and the Butcher
        7.        Robin Hood's Golden Prize
        8.        Robin Hood and the Prince of Aragon
        9.        Robin Hood and the Pedlar
        10.        Robin Hood and the Golden Arrow
        11.        Robin Hood's Death

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:42 PM

A lot of good old Robin Hood songs, 17th-19th century, in the Bodleian Ballads. One, from 1893, is called "Robin Hood Up to Date." Enter robin hood in search.
Robin Hood

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:55 PM

Hello,

Can't help too much with old lyrics, but one of my favorite songs is the theme to the Adventures of Robin Hood that was brodcast on BBC & CBS in the U.K. & U.S.


Chorus
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, with his band of men
Feared by the bad, loved by the good
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, Robin Hood

He called the greatest archers to a tavern on the green
They vowed to help the people of the king
They handled all the troubles on the English country scene
And still found plenty of time to sing
Chorus

He came to Sherwood Forest with a feather in his cap
A fighter never looking for a fight
His bow was always ready, and he kept his arrows sharp.
He used them to fight for what was right.
Chorus

With Friar Tuck and Little John they had a roguish look,
They did the deed the others wouldn't dare.
He captured all the money that the evil sheriff took,
And rescued many a lady fair.
Chorus

He came to Sherwood Forest with a feather in his cap
A fighter never looking for a fight
His bow was always ready and he kept his arrows sharp
He used them to fight for what was right
Chorus

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:29 PM

Blackcatter- old memories- you bring a tear to my eye! (Actually I was adult when the series came on, but with the children listening, I couldn't avoid humming the tune).

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM

John Kirkpatrick does an 8-minute 'Robin Hood Rescuing The Squires' on Various Artists 'Ballads' Fellside FECD110. This is based on a version sung to Vaughan Williams by Mrs Goodyear of Axford, Hampshire, in 1909 conflated with verses from versions in Child 140 and some remembered by Northhamptonshire poet, John Clare.

Tony Rose did a fine rendition of 'Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford' on his 'Young Hunting' LP Trailer LER 2013 - unfortunately one of those 'folk revival' albums in the clutches of the dreaded Bulmer and unlikely to see reissue. The music and words for Rose's version came from Chappell's 'Popular Music of Olden Time'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:03 PM

The 'Dirty Robbing Bastard that he was' is sung by Fred Wedlock I think-But dont quote me.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Little Robyn
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:20 PM

Allan Taylor recorded a good one on his Sometimes LP -
"those that sing of good Robin Hood
Know little where he was born."
I've always been interested in Robin Hood - I wonder why?
Robyn

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Hester
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:51 PM

Wow! Thanks for all those suggestions. Anglo, I'm heart-broken to see that the Ed McCurdy album is not in print. I guess from what Stewie said about the Tony Rose album, it's a common problem with folk music recordings.

Oh, and I almost forgot to invite all of you to my Robin Hood discussion group, called "The Greenwood" , where we explore every aspect of the legend, from the ballads and the May Games to movies and comic books.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Susan of DT
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 08:24 PM

There are over 50 Robin Hood ballads in the digital tradition. 7 of them have tunes attached. (I ran the DOS search that shows whether there are tunes)

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: masato sakurai
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:47 PM

Wallace House recorded some 10 songs on Robin Hood Ballads (Folkways 10" LP) in the 1950s(or 60s?).

~Masato

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:13 AM

Hester, I love your site. Checked in a number of times. I recorded "The Birth of Robin Hood" on my Folk-Legacy album "Lifeline". Still one of my favourite songs.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:38 AM

Hester,

The actor, Anthony Quayle, had an entire LP of Robin Hood Ballads on Caedmon Records---mostly recitations with lute by Desmond Dupree(?spelling). There is a GREAT "Birth Of Robin Hood" on that album.

I recorded "ROBIN HOOD'S DEATH" on two albums. The first was on my second LP for Kicking Mule Records called Songs Of The Heartland. That album is way out of print.------- I also put it on my 1998 CD called The Older I Get, The Better I Was on Waterbug Records. Go to

www.waterbug.com

and click on my name---Art Thieme. That'll get you to my part of the Waterbug site. It can be purchased there.

I will now send you a personal message. I have the McCurdy ROBIN HOOD BALLADS on tape.

All the best,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Warsaw Ed
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM

For anyone interested in Gilbert and Sullivan Operettas, there is a somewhat unheralded collaboration of Sullivan and Alfred Lord Tennyson called "The Foresters - Robin Hood and Maid Marian". The site is complete with a history of the composition, full lyrics and spoken dialog, music scores, and MIDI song audio. Search the Gilbert and Sullivan Archives or "http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/foresters/operhome.html".
It is not [admitedly] one of Sullivan's best efforts, but interesting!

Ed

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Trevor
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:49 AM

I first heard this sung by Malcolm Stent, who we'd booked because £30 was more than we could afford for Jasper Carrot. I subsequently heard it on a Fred Wedlock album. I don't know who wrote it, but it's saved my life a few times when I've been in one of those sessions where you can't think of what to sing next!

Robin Hood was a bloke who robbed across the land
Shooting arrows far and near
He fired at the rich and mowed down the poor
And now and then he hit a passing deer

Maid Marion was his missus and she had two lovely eyes,
Feet as big as boats.
He let her hang around 'cos she was the only girl in town
What could fetch him out his Nottingham Evening Post

Ch: Oh Robin was a bloke and he owned many bows,
Kept 'em all nice and clean
He died in his prime at the age of eighty nine
Of a nasty case of eyeball gan-ger-ine

He had a fight upon a log with a bloke called Little Jog (sic)
Made poor Robin look a proper twit.
He upped with his pole and he scored a perfect goal
And he knocked poor Robin flying in the water

When it came to singing songs, well, they could not go wrong
Their minstrel's name was Allan a'Dale
He minstrelled through the day and he minstrelled through the night
So they drowned him in a keg of Watney's pale

Ch

While walking through the wood, this randy Robin Hood,
With most of his merry men
To make this song real crude, past by them dashed a nude
And he never saw his merry men again

A bloke was being hung, and Robin said 'Thats wrong!'
'I'll stop his exe-cut-i-on' he said.
He loaded up his bow and let an arrow go
And shot the poor bugger through the head.

Now the friar's name was Tuck, he didn't give a damn,
He wouldn't ever help them in a fight.
He wouldn't help them hunt, the rotten lazy friar,
He just sat around and stuffed himself all night.

Ch.

As long as birds are here, as long as blokes drink beer,
As long as two and two make five,
As long as clipper ships keep on peddling cannabis pips
Then the name of Robin Hood will stay alive

It will spread throughout the land, it will pass from hand to hand,
His deeds exaggerated by the gross
They'll glorify his name and cover up with fame
The thieving robbin' bastard that he was.

Ch.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:43 AM

You beat me to it Trevor, so I didn't have to type it up! It was written by Dave Turner, a native of Nottingham I believe. I saw him once in 1976 and he was very funny - although what the Irish call "a bit scruffy". He did long monologues accompanied by his guitar - a little bit in the style of the talking blues/rag of Woody or Arlo Guthrie. I wonder what happened to him.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:31 AM

It was so long ago but the lyrics posted by Trevor (a valiant contribution of typing by the way)don't set my memory jogging along.
The version I vaguely recall had "the thievin' robbin' bastard that he was" as part of the chorus.
I attended The Duke of York Folk Club in Eccles Manchester at the time (early 70's) and was only young, underage in fact for drinking but I was the protege of Ted Edwards and was overlooked by the management.
This has got me thinking now .........................

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: mandomad
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:35 AM

And this one, ROBIN HEAD. (try that in Google)
       Sorry, still can't do Blue Blickerties
                   mandomad

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

I also posted it to the Keith Christmas thread a few weeks back. It's a gem, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Dan In Nova Scotia
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:10 AM

If you are looking for some printed versions or variants you can also find many in the Helen Creighton collection here in Nova Scotia. The one problem is I'm not sure in which book she has the lyrics printed.

I believe she might also have some of them recorded from the field whilst collecting old folk songs and folklore around Nova Scotia. If this is so the recordings could be accessed through the Public Archives of Nova Scotia. Although that would mean you would most likely have to travel here to access them.

Cheers,

Dan

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Hester
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:47 AM

Art Thieme wrote:

>>>I recorded "ROBIN HOOD'S DEATH" on two albums.<<<

Art, that's one of my favourite ballads too! I've even written a little cyber-essay about it, using a structuralist analysis to compare it to the crucifixion gospels and several other stories/rhymes/songs:

The Dying Hero

And Rick Fielding wrote:

>>>Hester, I love your site. Checked in a number of times. I recorded "The Birth of Robin Hood" on my Folk-Legacy album "Lifeline". Still one of my favourite songs.<<<

Wow, Rick, I listened to a sample at Barnes & Noble, and what a lovely voice you have: a cross between Stan Rogers and Gordon Lightfoot. Glad you enjoyed visiting "The Greenwood". I've posted a link to your album and Art's album on the message board there:

"The Greenwood"

And I have one more Robin Hood web page, this one exploring the concept of pagan survivals in the legend. Some of it needs revision, as I've lost some of my naive Gravesian perspective with further research, but any Frazerians out there, reformed or not, might get a kick out of it:

The Legend of Robin Hood: An Exploration of Pagan Themes

Oh, and Dan: As a Canadian, I'm very interested in the idea of a Nova Scotian tradition of Robin Hood ballads. The archive will give me more incentive to take a much-dreamed-about trip to the east coast.

And Ed: You're right, the Tennyson/Sullivan operetta was not, sadly, the best work from either artist, but that "web-opera" site is such a nifty concept that I think it deserves its own blue clicky:

The Foresters - Robin Hood and Maid Marian

Really enjoying the thread! Thanks everyone for your suggestions

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM

Re. Helen Creighton: the Roud Folk Song Index lists the following Robin Hood ballads found in tradition in Canada:

The Bold Pedlar and Robin Hood: Creighton, Songs & Ballads from Nova Scotia pp.12-14. Ben Hennebury, Devil's Island, c.1929. Text and tune.

The Bold Pedlar and Robin Hood: Creighton & Senior, Traditional Songs of Nova Scotia pp.67-69. Mrs Edward Gallagher, Chebucto Head. Text and tune.

Robin Hood and Little John: Creighton, Maritime Folk Songs pp.19-29. Mrs Gilbert Flemming, Ketch Harbour, 1950. Text and tune.

Robin Hood and Little John: Creighton & Senior, Traditional Songs of Nova Scotia p.67. Vernon G. Crosby, Gardner's Mills. Fragment of text only.

Robin Hood's Progress to Nottingham: Creighton, Songs & Ballads from Nova Scotia pp.15-16. Ben Hennebury, Devil's Island, c.1929. Text and tune.

Robin Hood's Progress to Nottingham: Creighton & Senior, Traditional Songs of Nova Scotia pp.69-70. Mrs Annie C. Wallace, Halifax. Text and tune.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: nutty
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM

A goodly number of the Robin Hood Ballads are in the Bodleian Library, having been printed by F. GROVE of LONDON between 1623 and 1661

Robin Hood and the Bishop

Robin Hood and the Beggar

Robin Hood rescueing Will Stutley

Robin Hood's Golden Prize

Renowned Robin Hood

Robin Hood's Progresse to Nottingham

Robin Hood and the Jovial Tinker

Robin Hood and the Butcher

Robin Hood's Preferment

Does anyone know exactly how many Robin Hood Ballads there are?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: nutty
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

also ...........................

Little John and the Four Beggers

Robin Hood and the Shepheard

Robin Hood's Delight

Robin Hood Newly Reviv'd

Robin Hood and the Curtall Fryar

I'm sure that I would find more given a more dilligent search

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

Location references for Creighton's sound recordings can be seen at  Nova Scotia Archives: Helen Creighton:

Robin Hood

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Hester
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM

Malcolm:

Thanks for the Creighton link!

Nutty:

Wait! Before you get too diligent in your search: it's very kind of you, but I'm actually quite familiar with the various on-line sources for Robin Hood ballad texts, including the Bodleian.

At the moment, however, I'm specifically interested in finding sound recordings of the songs (preferably available for purchase by the public on CD).

I don't know how many Robin Hood ballads there are (rather difficult to know how to count, given all the later variants), but the major ballads in their earliest known forms (and plays & some novels) have been collected on the University of Rochester's excellent "Robin Hood Project" site, many with commentary by academics Thomas Ohlgren and Stephen Knight.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM

"Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford" is available on Tim Laycock's current CD 'Fine Colours'. A stonking good version too!!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: nutty
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM

Hester - I'm sorry that my search results were not considered relevant .... however, if you had looked at the Broadsides you would have seen that tunes are quoted, which should (hopefully) make the originals easier to trace. I shall keep on looking.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Hester
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:49 PM

Hi, Nutty:

I really DO appreciate your kind efforts, but please, please, don't keep looking (unless for your own enjoyment). I'm not trying to "trace" the origins of those ballads. The task has already been ably done by various scholars (most notably Ritson in the late 18th century and Child in the 19th). And a very comprehensive collection of the earliest versions is available on the "Robin Hood Project" website that I posted a link to.

The Bodleian certainly has a lovely on-line collection of broadside ballads, and I've enjoyed looking at them many times in the past. Currently, however, I'm really just looking for modern RECORDINGS of the Robin Hood ballads to listen to.

Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: BUTTERFLY
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:24 AM

My 1973 Fred Wedlock LP "Frollicks" (sic!) has both "Robin Hood" and "Robin Head" on it; in the former the last line is "The thieving robbing ratbag that he was". The former is credited to and the latter to Dave Turner and the latter to Keith Christmas.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:51 AM

Some recordings:

1. Robin Hood Ballads, sung by Wallace House with lute (Folkways FW 6839, 1953, 1962) [10" LP]
    Contains "True Tale of Robin Hood," "Robin Hood and Little John," "Robin Hood and the Curtall Fryer," "Robin Hood and the Tanner," "Robin Hood and Maid Marian," "Robin Hood's Morris," "Robin Hood and the Three Squires," "The Jolly Pinder of Wakefield," " Robin Hood and the Ranger," and "Robin Hood's Death and Burial."

2. St George's Canzona, A Tapestry of Music for Robin Hood and His King (ASV/Crown [Japan] ASV-70, 1989) [formerly released as LP]
    Contains "Robin Hood and the Tanner," and other Robin-related songs and music.

3. Estampie/Graham Derrick, Under the Greenwood Tree (Naxos 8.553442, 1997)
    Contains "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar," "Robin Hood & the Tanner," and "Robin Hood & Maid Marian."

4. Paul O'Dette (lute, orpharion & cittern), Robin Hood: Elizabethan Ballad Settings (harmonia mundi [France] HUM 907265, 2001)
    Nos. 4 & 5 are instrumental.

5. Paul O'Dette (lute), Robin Is To The Greenwood Gone: Elizabethan Lute Music (Elektra/Nonesuch 9 79123-2, 1987)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 07:23 PM

One of my favorite songs.
As kids we would parody the lyrics.

Robin Hood, Robin Hood riding through the grass,
Little John, Little John shot him in the ...

I'll stop there...kids!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 04:45 AM

Note that "RH's Progress to Nottingham" is, for some reason, a title given by broadside printers (& by Child) to the one folksingers usually call "RH & The 15 Foresters".

I sing it on my Youtube channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 05:11 AM

I worked an a Robin Hood ballad project many years ago and got pretty mired in their general awfulness (with a hey down down a down down...). There some nice ones (like Michael's 15 Foresters) but the one that really stands out is Child #102 - The Birth of Robin Hood, AKA Willie and Early Richard's Daughter, which (being without a traditional tune) I set to one of Adam de la Halle's (d. 1288) melodies from his very wonderful Jeu de Robin et Marion. We still do it & have a versions (and a remix!) featured on the 1st & 3rd volumes of John Barleycorn Reborn. Volume 3 coming soon, featuring our Lily Flower Remix, but here's the basic vocal track:

The Birth of Robin Hood - Child #102

The concluding verse is one of the most beautiful things in the ballad tradition.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 06:06 AM

Thank you, Sean. That is beautiful.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 07:26 AM

Don't forget the recordings listed here. The only ones I've managed to get my hands on are Sherwood Rise's recordings of Robin Hood & The Tanner and Robin Hood And Allen A Dale on their album From the Wood.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 09:42 AM

The Birth of Robin Hood - Child #102

>Thank you, Sean. That is beautiful.<

Seconded. Any man or woman with a heart in their breast should hear this.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 10:37 AM

The best Robin Hood song I have ever heard is Lonesome Robin by Bob Coltman.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:06 PM

Sorry Sean,
I vowed I wasn't going to comment on your singing again after our last head-to-head, but since you've put this up I can only assume you have no objection to comments, even if they are not necessarily in line with your own opinion.
For me, you emphasise what went wrong with traditional songs and especially ballad singing in the hands of groups like Steeleye/The Watersons/YT/et al by transforming them from pieces of narrative into pleasant sounds.
As the old blues singer in 'Round Midnight' said, "Your notes are fine, but where's your story?"
Not the worst example; I think that honour firmly rests with Steeleye Span's assassination of the ballad 'Lambkin' where even they appear to get bored with what they are doing with it and break into an Irish reel half way through!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 04:47 AM

I sang Jon Boden's version of Birth Of Robin Hood, and someone said "Hang on, that was a Robin Hood that was nice. Where'd you get it from?"

Didn't realise how much dislike there was for them.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:01 AM

One day, Jim we'll have nice long a chat about the use of narrative dynamic in ballad singing and why the idiom has been ill-served by the folk revival as a whole, and why there in an widespread aversion to such things, and why our version here dervives entirely from the dramatic tensions of the story, but maybe this isn't the place.

Thanks otherwise for the kindnesses, likewise Michael & Raymond...

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 06:52 AM

I sincerely hope we do Sean, but in the meantime, once you exorcise the narrative qualities out of ballads they become something else - not better or worse, just different - sort of like George Butterworth's exquisite Banks of Green Willow stands for what it has become, or Bee Bumble and The Stingers', Hall of the Mountain King is no longer as Greig intended.
If you are asking to be judged as presenting something else, fine, but meanwhile, back at the ranch, good ballad singing it is not.
The problem for me was your interprtation projected no tension whatever, just a pleasant sound which swamped the story.
Here is as good a place as any to discuss ballad singing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:04 AM

Okay. I think your position here is way too subjective to be of any worth other than as 'an opinion' - which I respect. I am a ballad singer AND a storyteller; this is how I work with traditional material - in terms of pure narrative which goes hand in hand with the musical setting which is part and parcel of that (as oppose to mere accompaniment). It might not be to your tastes, or folky tastes in general, but to say that it is not good ballad singing is as way off as it is generally off-putting.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:17 AM

May or may not be a Robin Hood song, but it's very old, The Keeper,

The Keeper did a hunting go,
And under his cloak he carried a bow,
All for to shoot at the merry little doe,
Among the leaves so green o

Jacky boy.........etc

Dave H

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

"Okay. I think your position here is way too subjective to be of any worth other than as 'an opinion' "
Is that what is being offered here by everybody - "opinions"
You seem quite happy to consider only those "opinions" that uncritically favour your own performance - without discussion, which is the ultimate in subjectivity.
I have always had great difficulty in taking your snideswipes at the revival seriously, not because I wish to defend the fact that much of todays revival couldn't find its folk arse with both hands - I don't; but simply because your own singing represents some of the most idiosyncratic aspects of revial singing from the time it was beginning to lose its grip. Apart from anything else, it is so old fashioned; rather like the bunch of punks that used to (and maybe still do) hang around Chelsea Square on the Kings Road.
We are prepering a talk on Travellers that we at due to give at next month's West Clare Traditional Singing Festival, and one thing that is hammered home each time we listen to some of our old recordings - we owe a huge vote of thanks to Travellers (Irish and Scots) for having kept some of our rarest ballads alive for so long (in the case of Ireland - Young Hunting, The Maid and The Palmer, Lamkin, Edward, Lord Randall, Lord Gregory......) The reason for this - Travellers love of a good story.
Our ballads are stories with tunes; your singing does not reflect this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:49 PM

Doesn't sound like an opinion to me, Jim - once again you're browbeating a very tired old revival myth, no doubt hungover from the various effectations & pretensions of the critics group. Thankfully, I'm way too young for any o' that; I'm post-revival & even post-folk and as such think the revival approach to ballad is okay as far as it goes (or went) but it's not for me as a singer. Ballads, however, are for me as a singer, as is traditional song as whole, just I don't believe in right and wrong ways of doing it, much less of policing it with the sort of authority advocated by your erstwhile mentors who were barely qualified anyway. For one thing, I just do what I do - I would never dare tell anyone they are wrong for singing them in a particular way, much less advocate the myth that there is a right way or wrong way of approaching them. If ballads survived in traveller communities, theb all well and good; but we all like a good story, that's by dint of our humanity & not some inverted racial stereotyping or cultural blood purity which the folk revival has been hung up about since its inception. I find different approaches fascinating; the stuff of life indeed, whereas your ill-informed dementoring runs contrary to the very nature of music, let alone balladry.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM

Nope,
Just repeating what we were told by traditional singers like Walter Pardon - all open to access at the British Library if you ever care to come out of your folkie greenhouse and listen - but we've been here before, haven't we?
I have not told anybody what is right or wrong (I know it is a waste of time asking you to point out where I have - we've been here before as well) I have said if it loses an essential part of its identity it becomes something else.
I do find your folkie-bashing somewhat bizarre - a sort of public self flagellation, but whatever turns you on!!
As I said, You seem quite happy to consider only those "opinions" that uncritically favour your own performance - which remains to my ears as folkie as it gets, albeit about thirty years behind the times.
No change there.
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Robin Hood ballads
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

I'm not folkie bashing, Jim - I'm just coming from somewhere different that's all. I acknowledge the revival, just as I'll criticise it, but I'm not really a part of it - at 50 I'm way too young. Behind the times, eh? What times are those, I wonder? I'm in my own time, as are we all; the rest is down to a wider zeitgeist which isn't really for me to say. Nor you if it comes to that, even though you seem to have it all sewn up quite tidily, as long as you can keep on petitioning to exclude anyone who doesn't fit in with your inverted criteria on who, or who can not, be a ballad singer. My criteria is simple - as ballad singer can be anyone with the passion, dedication & inspiration to research, learn, set and sing ballads. How they sing them is not an issue; what is an issue is that they don't tell anyone else they're doing it wrong.

I have not told anybody what is right or wrong (I know it is a waste of time asking you to point out where I have - we've been here before as well)

Here's a few...

you emphasise what went wrong with traditional songs and especially ballad singing in the hands of groups like Steeleye/The Watersons/YT/et al by transforming them from pieces of narrative into pleasant sounds.

As the old blues singer in 'Round Midnight' said, "Your notes are fine, but where's your story?"

good ballad singing it is not.

Our ballads are stories with tunes; your singing does not reflect this.

Enough said.