Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question

Subject: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: Santa
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:04 PM

Is the first verse of this now completely unusable? Is it Racist to sing it, or unacceptably Politically Correct not to?

The sensitive can look the other way for a line or two....

"I never seen the like since I was born/A big buck nigger with his seaboots on"

In context: I remember being horrified (around 1968) when my mother called the colour of my new coat "nigger brown", but I've known that words to the song for even longer.

In Stormalong John's "Liverpool" collection, they claim not to present "the thoroughly well scrubbed and disinfected ditties taught in primary schools" - but miss out the first verse. I think I learned it in primary school...

Fortunately, not being a performer means I don't have to face up to this dichotomy between historical truth and modern sensitivities - but should I?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

"nigger brown" was a standard thread colour in the supplies of 'Sylvo' (I think). But it was re-named 'leaf mould' to protect the sensibilities of the PC generation

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:27 PM

"to protect the sensibilities of the PC generation"?

You sure there wasn't some other, more compelling reason, like maybe "nigger brown" sounds incredibly ignorant and backward, and anyone who says it sounds uneducated and profoundly lacking in class? Nah. Must have been the PC thingie.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

What most shanty groups sing these days is "A big buck navvy with his sea boots on"

There are a number of shanties which mention the word "nigger".

Stan Hugill says that the black crew members were put "on watch" on the opposite side or the other end of the ship to the whites. So there was effectively a colour bar operating in those days.


Dave R.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:44 PM

Not again? See 100 threads with remarks on this.
Re nigger brown, I remember the nigger toes of my childhood Christmas. Now called Brazil nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:45 PM

Gee -- I always knew those words as a "great big lady with seaboots on", which strikes me as much more unusual a sight in the context. Maybe I should change it to "person"?? Yech!!

A

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM

The late lamented Paul Connor had a theory for why it was such an amazing thing to see this chap (however you describe him) with his seaboots on- presumably not an unusual sight on board ship, or in port?
Paul's theory was that he only had his seaboots on...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnny Come Down To Hilo
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:16 PM

I've heard use, instead of the racist verse - "...an Arkansas farmer with his seaboots on." It gets the point across the he's "never seen the likes..." I wouldn't call it PC to not want to sing the word "nigger" given its almost universal recognition as a racist term, one that carries more weight than other pejorative terms found in chanterys such as "Frenchyman,"and given that any particular chanteyman would use various verses. I would call PC the misguided effort to ban "Drunken Sailor" from a school performance, or banning whaling songs.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:43 PM

No fat ladies sing anymore. Sears has adopted "image" as the word for sizes for the "full-figured." Image sizes? Our circumlocutions kill the old songs.
Way, hey, blow the person down;
A full-figured person I chanced for to meet....

Oh-Oh! Now -son implies male. Have to expunge that word as well. Human? no, there is -man. Primate?

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: radriano
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:50 PM

I would only sing the word "nigger" in very special circumstances such as illustrating the word's historical use. But I also find it ridiculous that the word is such a no-no yet is commonly used among blacks themselves. If it's such a racial term no one should be using it.

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM

Right on, slot.


A

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: paulo
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

Arkansas farrmer, Frenchman, navvey (implies Irish) all racist.

Great big lady - hugist.

The problem with traditional songs is that they are dated.   The words that they use are, or can be, politically incorrect or racist.

Having said that I seem to remember Jonny Silvo singing "big buck nigger"

Cheers

paulo

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Dead Horse
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

I have ALWAYS sung *buck nigger* and will never sing Arkansas farmer or any other modern substitute.
Johnny Come Down To Hilo was a shanty with a very negro flavour about the verses, and often included verses from Camptown Races. To omit the non-PC verses is to deny the heritage of this fine song.
In the shanty "Lowlands Low" (fast version) there is a verse "There's a nigger howling at the main-topmast". Same goes for THAT shanty.
As for the so called racism aboard ship - rowlocks! The crew would be split more for the differences in shantying than for any other reason.
I have no doubt that some sailors were racist, but by & large they were far more tolerant than landsmen.
I hate it when a shanty gets mauled about by the folk brigade, who alter tune, verse, and metre, just to make it singable in their local club, or worse, on record. Bending over backwards to look as if you are not racist often has the opposite effect, and can result in future singers getting a totally wrong impression of a song.
This part of "The Folk Process" I can do without.
I would also venture to add that the singing of shanties is, and always has been, entirely non-PC, and long may it continue in this far too finicky age!

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:26 PM

How'd a sailor boy get turned into such a steam engine? :>)


A

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Santa
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

Guest Q: Hmm - maybe I should have looked around a little more before posting. But it sprang to mind following the other thread on Racism in British folk music, and it seems worth asking. It is something that has been intriguing me for a while.

I had intending putting it in the BS section, to make clear that it is not an entirely serious question, so I'm not sure how it ended up here.

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:12 PM

I'm with Radriano on this one. With the exception of a shanty party among friends or an educational workshop, I would never risk insulting Black people by singing such a traditional but racist verse in a public concert or workshop. I really don't know any sea music people who would do this in this day and age.

My favorite substitute would be "A Bucho Mate with his/her seaboots on" but try coming up with your own.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:43 PM

Taking the girl in the blue dress from the chorus, I mix two separate shanties to end up with this, which I adapted from Elise's post in this thread. It keeps the glorious tune, but loses all the racist bits

I never seen the like since I bin born,
There's a pretty gal asleep with a blue dress on
Oh, Johnny come down to Hilo!
Oh, poor old man!

Oooh! wake her! Oooh! shake her!
Ooooh! wake that gal with the blue dress on!
When Johnny comes down to Hilo!
(Oh) poor old man!

This gal she looked so good to me,
'Cos I'd bin ten long months at sea,

Them Hilo girls they act so fine
They ain't got Jesus on their minds

My girl's got class, my girl's got style,
For a dollar a time it's all worth while.

A dollar goes from hand to hand
And my girl goes from man to man

Her eyes were blue her lips were red
Her hair was curly but not on her head

Gonna tie her up in a 'tater sack,
She'll be true to me 'till I get back

So roust 'er up be quick I say,
An' make yer port an' take yer pay.

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM

Snuffy:
Verse 5 looks like a direct 'steal' from "Roll a Silver Dollar"

Nigel

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:57 PM

Or maybe even vice versa, Nigel! Many shanty verses are "stolen" from other songs, but it's usually impossible to say which came first.

I've read somewhere that the tune is originally Irish. It's also pentatonic (i.e can be played on the black notes of a piano) - would this tend to support or disprove the irish provenance?

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:09 PM

Point taken Snuffy.

Transcription of chorus is given as:

"Oooh! wake her! Oooh! shake her!
Ooooh! wake that gal with the blue dress on!
When Johnny comes down to Hilo!
(Oh) poor old man! "

Apart from the change in line 2, I remember this sung as "Oh, wake her...etc.,"
i.e. pronounced as 'oh' (as in 'low'), not 'Oooh' (as in view')

Comments welcomed

Nigel

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM

Now how do we PC "The Nigger On The Narcissus"? Or does no one read it anymore?

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: GUEST,Brian Frew
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM

I really like singing the song, but I disliked the racist element in the first verse too. So I decided to substitute "seaman" instead of "nigger", as in "when a big black seaman with his seaboots on" etc. This seems to work ok and at least I am saved the embarrasment I once had of being tackled on the issue and not having a very credible defence.

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:49 AM

There used to be a certain confection called ' nigger balls ' as in Jeremy Taylor's song ' Agh Pleez Daddy, ' quote, ' Agh daddy how we miss nigger balls and liquorice, pepsi cola ginger beer and canada
dry.'
One of Jeremy's childrens songs. very much pre-PC
eric

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: BanjoRay
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:03 AM

If you don't like the words, don't sing the song, but don't rewrite history by screwing the words up without admitting during the performance that that is what you've done. There's a limit to what you can do to a folk song and still call it traditional.
Just my opinion!
Ray

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:59 AM

I'd have thought "big black sailor" would sing better than "big black seaman", Brian, (and of course that's a word only too likely to set some giggling anyway).

Songs change as language changes, and they always have. "Big buck nigger" doesn't mean the same today as it did back in the 19th century. It has a shock effect which was absent then. It would have sounded then pretty well the same as "Big black sailor" would today, and conveyed to the listener the same picture. So it's a very reasonable substitute, in many settings (not all).

I wouldn't carry this over into written literature, but that's because we have a different relationship to songs than we do to written literature.

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: Dead Horse
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 06:32 AM

If there are any "big buck niggers" on mudcat, lets ask THEM what they think of the song lyrics to these songs.
I still hold that it was coloured seamen that sang these shanties, and that it would be incorrect for lowly pub singers and ne'er-do-wells like us to change 'em, purely because the pc brigade may make us feel a bit awkward 'bout singin' 'em.
I sing the lyrics as is, and I don't make a "thing" about it, or draw attention to it. If somebody comes up to me and passes a comment, then I will try to educate them, black or white.
Unless the overwhelming opinion of COLOURED catters tries to educate ME otherwise, of course!!!

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: RWJ
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 07:07 AM

when it comes toPC whatever you sing is going to upset someone " if sung with feeling " so just get on with it

Subject: RE: Johnny Come Down To Hilo - question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM

You ignore my point that it doesn't mean the same now as it did then, dead horse. You'd probably use the word "black" or "black man" in normal conversation without any sense that it was likely to be seen as insulting or offensive, and you wouldn't use the word "nigger" in the same way - back in the 19th century there wouldn't have been any difference between the two expressions.

There's a difference between a song when it is sung in the context of some kind of dramatic performance, or a lecture, or a re-enactment, and the same song in normal use in a pub or club - in the former cases sticking to the actual words is probably the right thing to do.