BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx

Subject: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: curmudgeon
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:59 PM

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:00 PM

Now in the 1970's - there were a group of us who would try the "Karl Marx memorial pub crawl.

From the British Museam to the "Flask" in Highgate. Drinking at least 1/2 pint of beer in each pub that still existed, and was open in the 1860's - very few finished.

Gareth - now suffering from his disapated youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 May 03 - 07:09 PM

desecrated? Sedated? Underrated? Sated?

awaited? Belated? Reinstated?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:02 PM

His heart was in the right place but his head was up his ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:08 PM

"People like to own stuff." Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Giac
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:27 PM

" ... Lennon read a book on Marx ..."

What's the secret woid?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 May 03 - 12:28 AM

A Saskatchewan teacher while teaching one day,
"Very good marks!" she did foolishly say,
She was burned at the stake for the whole world to see
For there's only one Marx to the RCMP.

somat from the sixties....

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:52 AM

I think it was Fourier who first said "from each according to his ability," etc. Marx may have said that, at one time or another, but it really, really isn't essential Marx. He was a very hard-headed guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: mooman
Date: 06 May 03 - 05:52 AM

"The worker becomes all the poorer the more wealth he produces, the more his production increases in power and range. The worker becomes an ever cheaper commodity the more commodities he creates. With the increasing value of the world of things proceeds in direct proportion to the devaluation of the world of men. Labour produces not only commodities; it produces itself and the worker as a commodity -- and does so in the proportion in which it produces commodities generally."

Marx, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts (1844)

Most of what people who have not studied Marx think about his ideas is coloured by the system of dialectical materialism developed by later followers. An analysis of Marx's own approach reveals a somewhat more tentative and open-ended philosophy.

Happy birthday Karl!

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:02 AM

curmudgeon: Jeeze, Cur, sorry but I just can't get too choked up about a guy who killed and imprisoned so many innocent people. I can't imagine any clear thinking liberal would either. I guess the best I could say for the situation is I'm glad he's dead, and I think the world would be better off had he never been born.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:16 AM

Um, "killed and imprisoned people"??? You have me confused. Can you hang people in books and manifestos?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:17 AM

Anyway, Happy Birthday, Karl Marx! I'm delighted to share the same birthday week with you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: pict
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:51 AM

DougR I think you are somewhat confused about who Karl Marx was and what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: mooman
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:16 AM

Quite so Pict!

DougR...Karl Marx was a philosopher and thinker who lived most of his life in relative poverty scraping a living and raising several children in a flat in London while developing his economic, philosophical and political theories and works. As far as I know he never killed a fly.

I've met plenty of people who disagree with his ideas and that's just fine but, even by his opponents he was lauded for his integrity. Anything violent done in the name of "Marxism" was done well after his death (1883) by people who moulded his original ideas in their own ways. I suggest you study your history a little closer! I personally don't care too much for Adam Smith and his ideas but wouldn't have wished him not to have existed (and as much suffering and harm has resulted from the particular economic system he espoused IMHO)!

Once again Happy Birthday (for a couple of days ago) Karl Marx!

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:11 AM

Was not one of Marx' citations "Who forgets about history is doomed to repeat it".

When the Berlin wall came down there was a big graffitto on a remaining part of the wall: Marx looking at the masses going West and saying 'Well, folks, it was just an idea.'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:04 AM

Rosa Luxemburg, the murdered German socialist/communist has seen many of the shortcomings of the Lenin/Stalin type of Marxism early. In "The Russian revolution" she did write in 1918:

Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of one party -- however numerous they may be -- is no freedom at all. Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently....
Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element. Public life gradually falls asleep, a few dozen party leaders of inexhaustible energy and boundless experience direct and rule. Among them, in reality only a dozen outstanding heads do the leading and an elite of the working class is invited from time to time to meetings where they are to applaud the speeches of the leaders, and to approve proposed resolutions unanimously -- at bottom, then, a clique affair -- a dictatorship, to be sure, not the dictatorship of the proletariat but only the dictatorship of a handful of politicians, that is a dictatorship in the bourgeois sense, in the sense of the rule of the Jacobins...such conditions must inevitably cause a brutalization of public life

No, that is not written in hindsight, it was written in foresight. One may dream for a moment what if she had not been murdered in 1919.... But then the reality check comes in and says. Well, then she would have been murdered in 1938/39. Though I'm not sure whether in a German KZ or in Moscow.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: mooman
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:14 AM

A good quote Wolfgang and an excellent example of a view on how Marx's original ideas were taken and perverted by later leaders, unfortunately in his name, such that a quite different outcome to what Marx actually had in mind actually occurred.

I quite agree, and it has quite some echoes of Engles' speech upon Marx's death.

Best regards,

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: uncle bill
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:15 AM

Groucho and Harpo's brother, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:57 PM

Gee, Doug...if that could be said for Karl...I guess the same could be said for Jesus Christ as well....

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:07 PM

Apologies, apologies, apologies. I should have known more about the man before spouting off. I only associate Mark with Lenin, Stalin, Trotski and that bunch. I am evidently mistaken, and apologize.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:37 PM

Well, Doug, you're a good 'un to apologies so humbly! You had me scrambling to the net to see if I'd missed something about Marx's life (always trust oneself)!!!

No, though. Wolfgang -- Marx didn't pen that line about "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it..." that was George Santayana. It's my favorite line, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: curmudgeon
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:12 PM

Doug -- Get out some good history books. Aside from their claims to be Communists, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin had very little in common -- Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:31 AM

Tom: you mean little in common with Karl Marx or with each other?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:53 AM

Thanks for the correction, Judy. This way I learned about a man I had never heard before.

I guess I mixed it up with History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce which I now claim to be from Karl Marx (until I'll be corrected).

Richard (best regards too and also to Pat; it was so nice to see both of you again), I am quite undecided about Marx, I consider his problem description as far better than his advices how to change the problem.
However, a great man he was and whereas names like Lenin, Stalin, and some less know communist leaders have completely disappeared in (former) East Germany as street names, school names etc. the name of Marx can still be found.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: pict
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:33 AM

DougR no need to apologize I was merely pointing out the need fo further investigation I suggest you take a read of "the communist manifesto" Marx nailing of his colours to the mast.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 03 - 09:47 AM

Doug - A little history, no singer (croaker) of political folk songs on the left would put Stalin and Trotsky in the same context.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:39 PM

UP THE WORKERS, GOOD OLD KARL MARX

WE'LL KEEP THE RED FLAG FLYING HERE.

Ps
I am a SNP man, who beleives in Socialism
Unlike the 'New' Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,H.D.
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:23 PM

Doug, for heaven's sake, a rudimentary knowledge of one of the most important philosophers of the nineteenth century is hardly asking too much. You're getting ripped to shreds in some other discussions on the Cat because seemingly you've started increasingly making cracks without any factual basis other than Fox News. This kind of thing really doesn't help. You've got some supporters here who wish you'd make an attempt at reading a book.

H.D.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:48 AM

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it," Karl Marx's "revolutionist" danger to the societies of the day were for the workers to gain control of the machines to share in the profit. The true father of modern Socialism and "the greatest good for the greatest number," "each according to abilty..." etc., was Jeremy Bentham. If I remember correctly he was writing somewhere ca. Pepys (sp?) et. al. It was at the time called Benthamism. The closest approach to Communism is a Catholic Nunnery; even Monks have too much Testosterone to do the right thing. (obviously as some priests, rabbis, and assorted middle eastern goat-herders. hmmm.)

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:32 AM

While attempts to "implement" Marx in the political sphere have not been wildly successful, Marx won the battle for the hearts and minds of social scientists.

It is now assumed that history, society, and social change are about the bottom line. The 20th century made that crystal clear and the 21st century will probably rub our noses in it .

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:56 AM

Communism seems like a great idea - but it's not an evolutionarily stable strategy (R. Dawkins).   There'll always be someone who benefits by screwing everyone else, and the system breaks down.

Anyway, why wasn't he those films?


Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:24 PM

I remember only going out of my way to visit three famous graves...Karl Marx,(cuz' he made me think) Stephen Leacock (cuz' he made me laugh) and Jim Morrison (because I was told there were a lot chicks hanging out there!)

Karl may have been one of the great thinkers of all time, but I'm afraid he way overestimated the ability of the human race to be fair.(to each other)

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:51 AM

Morrison's gravesite really WAS bizarre. Quite a few kids (male and female) with guitars and cassette players, flowers and even offerings of food (!!?)

Karl's gravesite had lots of people quietly reading his stuff and staring into space. At BOTH sites, the smell of marijuana was conspicuous, ha ha!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,Bastiat
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:09 PM

Karl Marx was a stupid Jew who took his marching orders from The Jesuits AKA The Society of Jesus.

He didn't write the communist manifesto or any thing els of consequence.

The Communist Manifesto was written by a Catholic Cardinal after the South American experiments in Communism were concluded. The Guernay Reductions, held in Paraguay, lasted 150 years and the goal was the perfection of communism. The Cardinal distilled this into the Manifesto. It was then given to Karl Marx along with a very large amount of gold via the Rothchild Family, and off he went.

The Jesuits have always used the Jews to do their dirty work. Then the world can blame those "Jews" for communism while the Jesuits sit back and laugh their black-robed asses off.

Great work if you can get it.

PS. All of you commies suck!

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: annamill
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:15 PM

What?

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: annamill
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:16 PM

Thank goodness you'd have to be a member to join our New Thinking Group!

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:42 PM

Hmmm... time to clean off the monitor screen again. There seems to be some weird stuff appearing on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: MarkS
Date: 01 May 04 - 07:41 PM

Actually,

"This government will not content itself with administering and governing the masses politically, as all governments do today. It will also administer the masses economically, concentrating in the hands of the State the production and division of wealth, the cultivation of land..........All that will demand the reign of scientific intelligence, the most aristocratic, despotic, arrogant, and elitist of all regimes. There will be a new class, a new heirarchy....the world will be divided into a minority ruling in the name of knowledge, and an immense ignorant majority. And then, woe unto the mass of ignorant ones!"

Mikhail Bakunin, 1872

Point to ponder. If Marx had not been hijacked by Lenin, and the ideas of that old anarchist Bakunin became operative rather than those of Marx, what would the history of the last century have been like??
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 May 04 - 01:31 AM

Jeremy Bentham 1748-1832

Samuel Pepys 1633-1703

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:03 AM

If Marx had not been hijacked by Lenin, and the ideas of that old anarchist Bakunin became operative rather than those of Marx, what would the history of the last century have been like??

The reasons given for the shooting of political opponents would have been different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: el ted
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:05 AM

Goodbye and good riddance!

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:14 AM

"Bei Hegel stand die Dialektik auf dem Kopf; ich habe sie wieder auf die Füße gestellt." (Karl Marx)

With Hegel dialectic stood on its head, I put it back to its feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: mooman
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:01 AM

Dear Guest Bastiat,

If you'd like to come over to Belgium, I can take you to the very room where Karl Marx and Frederick Engels wrote the Manifesto. I don't believe any Jesuits or Opus Dei members were present according to historical record.

Marx's work stands up well from a philosophical point of view be it not for the perversions of human greed/nature and the the utter bollix the likes of Lenin, Stalin and others made of them in their own visions (or lack thereof).

Anyway, happy birthday Karl Marx (at least from me!)

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 May 04 - 07:19 AM

Fine to hear from you again, Richard. And a happy birthday to you, too!

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: GUEST,P.Ho (Communist of HK)
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:04 AM

Happy Birthday! Mr. Karl Marx.

Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Karl Marx
From: matai
Date: 09 May 04 - 05:22 AM

Marx and Engels also wrote about the sex/love relationship (if I remember my political science papers correctly) This re-inforced people marrying for these reasons rather than the joining of property.

Matai