BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:09 PM

Hi Rick, Driven to Distraction is still a great read about add/adhd but it's near 10yrs old now & there are a good group of books with more recent studies, updates & findings. While trying to nail down my son's disorders (tourettes, mild ocd, add along with being bi-polar) I realized that not only was I adhd from jump street but my mother, my half brother, 1 of his kids & 1 maybe 2 of his grandchildren are effected by add. So my idea of what a (mine) normal, healthy family environment got completely trashed. My sister's psychiatrist told her, because of her family's history she wouldn't know normal if it bit & hit her & that she's done so well despite her family environment (she's not add) that it wasn't a good idea to open up that can of worms. Except for my mother, who at this point in her life (70's) won't bother with meds (she thinks it might slow her down), the rest of us take medications & we're all so much the better for. It's not a food thing nor an environmental thing nor is it physco babble or an excuse, it's the real deal & without living it of being part of someone life who lives it, it's hard to take it for what it is, a disorder. When I look back into my youth not only am I amazed that I'm still alive after using up more than my share on my 9 lives but at how much I was disabled by it. I always wondered why the teachers said I wasn't trying even though I was quite bright (ok, as a child), I was always so bored & looking out "the window" that by the time I came back to check in (not minutes but sometimes hrs or days) I was so far behind that it wasn't worth it to catch up. My wife is still in shock at how my family communicates with one another or how we can all be working on something while watching tv & carrying on a 4 way conversation. Hell, it easy when you're trying to focus on someone while carrying on a 5way conversation in your head that won't stop (with the meds I've narrowed it down somewhat). For my son (& me) school was a huge problem. He gets the same from the teachers & administration, that he's not working up to his potential "& being such a bright boy too". It's hard for them to understand that kids like this often are putting most of their energy into trying to appear normal & not to seem out of place or to stick out & that after fighting this day in & day out never mind trying to survive against the odds, that there's not much room, time or energy left over for them to try to make an honor roll. By the time I was 14 I ran off to New York City trying to jump a ship for England, for no other reason than excitement By 17 I was off across country (to San Francisco) for a month long adventure. Being a risk junkie was just a part of who I was, a wild kind of a kid. There is a theory (can't remember where I heard it) that add/adhd is unusually high in Canada & the USA is because it was settled by explorers & adventures, thrill seekers & risk takers, those in search of something new or different, all of which run strong in those affected by add & looking at my family 'it does tend to get passed on', not to all but it does like familiar blood. Some of us are an impulsive & distractible lot that thrive on crisis management & last minute pressures. My wife & daughter can usually tell right off if I've missed my meds, I can't see it but I know that they're my best barometer. I don't think the meds change the personality much (by now it a part of what some of us are) & that it's hard to see a difference but the "Head Movies" that Mark mentioned, Peg's dreamy daydreaming & the 4 way head conversions, when they are there, aren't nearly as distracting & focusing becomes a little bit easier. Well there you go Rick for a bit of feedback & for some thoughts on the subject & for my 2 cents that you probably didn't ask for or at least wished I'd kept it down to a dime or a quarter. Do check it out, it's at least somewhat satisfying to know if & how much this affects you & that there may have been a reason that explains a lot of the whys & sheds a bit of light on what makes us who & what we are. Sorry about being so long winded. Good night Rick & all the best. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 09:18 PM

Was anyone worried about fats (except for them being fattening) or eating soy in the US in the 50s and 60s?.

I don't think my diet differed much from any of the other kids I knew.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: mg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 08:54 PM

also what do we feed children or allow them to eat? Foods that don't exist in nature (shouldn't call them foods). A lot of the symptoms of ADD mimic those of hypoglycemia...

Also, how are brains supposed to develop without the right fats? Likewise endocrine systems. Phat Phobias have scared mothers (maybe fathers too) from feeding their children traditional fats..

Also check out the literature on soybeans. Especially soy infant formula. Scary stuff. Use as a last resort if your baby is starving..other than that check stuff out carefully. They say it is like giving them birth control pills.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 07:21 PM

There are indeed different levels. Any decent Dr. will tell you so. I agree that Ritalin or drugs are NOT for everyone with a problem, but it was a lifesaver for Luke. I just might have killed him, seriously.

Ritalin is only one molecule different from methamphetimine/speed. On persons below puberty it acts as a calming agent. Usually (not always) after puberty it acts like speed. Not good if you are already hyper. I firmly believe that my Mom was ADHD. She was disorganized, unable to finish a task because she saw another one, then another etc. and started them all. Other things too.

People with this problem are often more intelligent than the norm if you can test properly then find something they are interested in. For many it is arts or vocational work such as mechanic. They usually do not do well in office or 'people' related work such as sales.

Luke tried to work in a meat market and fast food joint--he hated it, hated the people, wanted to be rude to the customers, etc. Now he is a mechanic and very happy just talking to cars. They don't let him close to the car owners--he has been known to throw wrenches. "You stupid f**k! Get outta my face and let me fix your f***ing car!"

I personlly think that something about it is inherited somehow. Back in the 1800/early 1900's these kids just dropped out of school and went to work for the family business. Now, we are seeing more diagnoses because almost ALL children are expected to finish at least 12 grades of school. I also think (seriously!) that the increase in high voltage, unshielded power lines and microwave towers might have something to do with it.

Also, statisticlly, boys are about 6 times more likely to be diagnosed with it. I guess girls are just supposed to be scatterbrained..........

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:54 PM

I have certain aspects of ADD. My biggest problem is working through boring things to get to a goal. For instance, doing scales to learn to read music properly, or doing boring work for a boring class to get an advanced degree. I do really well when I'm noodling around on an instrument or tying weird thoughts together for a short story. I also like doing puzzles ( both jigsaw and mind ). So I guess I'm somewhat ADD, but who cares? I like unorganized daydreaming!

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 05:47 PM

Mark & Peg, your words on being labeled an underachieve and disruptive kid mirror my own experience. My parents were constantly told by my teachers that I wasn't applying myself. Luckily, my parents could see how hard I tried to do things I wasn't interested in and how painful it was for me, and they stuck up for me - to the point where I was unaware what my teachers had told them and can't really remember feeling bad about myself. (Except when I got into trouble for doing my own thing when class got boring.)

Rick, I think there must be degrees of this. Also, some folks learned to cope better than others. I'm thinking the label 'disorder' may just not be right. It seems more like a type of personality. If you find a niche in the world where your personality is compatable, or even helps your life, there's no problem. If you go the square-peg-in-round-hole route, you're life's gonna be miserable.

I think I have most of the symptoms. Maybe the biggest one is that I'm still wondering what I want to be when I grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:54 PM

Guest, I have read that Ritalin not only loses effectiveness n treating ADD or ADHD past a certain age, but also that it can cause problems in adults. The very basic explanation I have heard is that Ritalin "relaxes" hyperactive childrne, but acts as a stimulant in adults...

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST,A Long Time Catter
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:35 PM

Logged out because I don't post personal things on the net, but I was diagnosed with this a few years ago. Other than the Mensa reference, I would have posted most of what Peg and Mark did. I am taking medication and it seems to be working for me. My focus is much better and I am able to complete things fairly easily. I thought that it was something that Psychologists had come up with as a catch all for most messed up kids, and was leary when mine brought it up as a possibility. But the more he discussed it, the more possible it seemed. I took the tests, they indicated that I could be the Poster Child for it. I wish I had known about it 35 years ago.         

Peg, why do you say that adults shouldn't take Ritalin?

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 01:39 PM

It turns out I am attention deficit as well. I was always an underachiever in school and counselors and parents were constantly telling me I wasn't working at my potential. Of course ADD hadn't been invented back then so I was just a problem kid.

A couple of years ago I'd been complaining to my doctor that I thought I was loosing intellect; a big problem since my very survival depends entirely my intellect. That complaint, together with other things I didn't realize were related prompted my doctor to schedule me for a sleep study. Turned out I have sleep apnea and my brain has probably spent a considerable amount of time starved for oxygen. She (the doctor) also sent me for a psycological evaluation—probably to see if I was depressed.

It turned out I wasn't depressed and my IQ testing ranked me "far above" the 99th percentile. That impressed the psycologist so it was tough trying to make the case that I was becoming stupid. I didn't bother to tell her that, even though my present IQ would get me into MENSA, it was still 19 points lower than it used to be.

The psycologist also kept finding different ways to ask me if I had been disruptive in school as a child or had other behavior problems. I kept saying no, not understanding why she kept asking. Then she told me I had ADD/ADHD and most likely have been that way all my life. It turns out that, because my mind was quick and creative, all my hyperactivity was acted out in daydreams since my own head was a far more diverse and exciting place to run loose than the physical world around me.

To this day I can be in an important situation—e.g., meeting an important business associate—and my head will suddenly start a special showing of some "movie" it's cooked up and force me to watch it. Until the "movie" had ended, I'm totally unable to focus back in the real world. I'm focused and effective when working with something I'm obsessive about but even those things must be completed in pretty short order or I'll lose focus and drift off into some other endeavor.

The psycologist offered to prescribe drugs to help with the ADD but I said no. I've been this way all my life and I've pretty much learned how to make it work for me. Still, learning that I have ADHD helped to explain a whole lot in my life that I could never really understand before.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Peg
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 01:32 PM

The symptoms of this are a bit too "catch-all" and difficult to accurately "diagnose" (since it is a syndrome and not a disease with an organic cause) which results, unfortunately, in the inapppropriate and overly-zealous medication of kids; in some day care centers kids arte not allowed to be there unless their parents medicate them...

People past the teenage years should not use Ritalin. Adults with ADD should look into behavior modification and therapy for this. Often the very basic problems one experiences can be addressed quite directly.

I have it, too, and have had it since I was a kid, though no one understood it, then. I was the "dreamy kid looking out the window bored in class and not paying attention to the rules of how to play softball" rather than the "hyper troublesome kid who does poorly in school" type...I did have emotional and temper problems, too, but this may have been a function of the environment I grew up in (though I was more troubled than my siblings when very young). I was very successful in academics and school activities, though a bit of a loner for years...

The "dreamy" ADD kids kids often turn into highly creative intelligent adults who have trouble functioning in "normal" social situations (they misread cues because of focus problems, NOT in the same way of Asperger's Syndrome, for whom social cues are often unreadable), and who have problems with organization, motivation, procrastination, focus and follow-through. This can create problems with professional advancement, money, and relationships, just for starters. They may have what appear to be highly-disordered surroundings, but certain aspects of their lives are highly-controlled.

A great book on it is Driven to Distraction, by a doctor who specializes in diagnosis and treatment in kids and adults...

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM

I think each case is different. Luke was never really focused on anything at all. Well, maybe sharp, pointey things that almost always got/get him in trouble.......

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:39 PM

My brother has always been that way, Rick, though never diagnosed. Now, though, I think some of his inability to concentrate on things that don't interest him and/or on practical matters has a lot to do with depression, too.

I also think he fits a lot of the profile for Asperger's Syndrome, which you may read about in Musicians with Asperger's Syndrome. There are some interesting post in there, esp. Harvey Andrews's.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:18 PM

Rick, our son, now 24 has it and the mando player (40 something) in our band has it. Luke was diagnosed at age 6 in first grade. I knew something was wrong when he came home from school the first day of Kindergarden. A formerly happy, healthy boy was SO ANGRY I couldn't believe it. Took almost 2 yrs to get a diagnosis. He did the Ritalin thing until about 7th grade when I couldn't force him to take it anymore.

He had serious problems graduating from high school, but he finally did. He has also had numerous brushes with the Law due to an intolerance for Authority. He has never outgrown any of it, but did finally get Anger Management Counseling and has learned a lot of control with behaviour modification.

The 40 yr. old mando player knew for years that something was wrong but it was not dianosed until about 5 yrs ago. She was a teacher in high school and not very effective at all. The kids all said anybody could get straight A's in her class and do nothing at all. They made a lot of fun of her. Ritalin mostly seems not to work with people over puberty, but sometimes antihistamines do. They did not for her, and she is learning behaviour modification now too. Says it's helping some, but is a slow process.

And some children do outgrow all the symptoms, but not many. Most will outgrow a few symptoms and with help from parents and teachers can learn to re route a lot of behaviours.

Subject: RE: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:17 PM

Lots of doctors have ADD. They benefitted from it in school by being 'highly focused' as you described...developed incredible study skills and excelled as a result. Lots of lawyers and writers, etc have it. Unfortunately, the federal govt in the US is now killing a whole new generation of such adults with Ritalin and other lobotomizing drugs in public schools. Get your kids off the drugs, folks.

Subject: BS: Attention Deficit disorder in Adults.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:51 AM

Hi.
I did my best to check and see if a similar thread to this has appeared before and came up empty.

A few nights ago at a friends place this topic came up and one person mentioned some of the symptoms of the affliction. My ears really perked up because it appeared that I had EVERY ONE (mentioned).

Things like leaving doors and cupboards open (constantly), the inability to follow through on ANYTHING that doesn't interest me. The very tight focus on stuff that DOES fascinate me. The (inadvertant) constantly going off on conversational tangents (does this have anything to do with my over-use of brackets) and the almost instant boredom I feel when topics that DON'T interest me are being discussed (often resulting in jokes). Is impatience with folks who don't "get" things, also a symptom?

It's not that all this behaviour came as a surprise to me, because anyone who's read stuff I write at Mudcat knows about the humour-mileage I get from my bizarre battles with schools and adolescent-hood in general.

What I WASN'T aware of was that it may be part of a 'named' condition. I'm big on 'personal responsibility' and not blaming your fuck-ups on other people or things....I'd rather make jokes than whine.

AlSO...I think I may have always had conditions mixed up in my mind. I thought that ADD was what those little kids in football helmets had, and since I was never much of a hyper type, wouldn't have connected it with me.

Both Heather and Mudcat Jeri also say they see some of those symptoms in themselves......but the thing that I was really mistaken about was that this stuff happened in childhood and then you just (the ones that did) 'grew out of it. I STILL have all the symptoms mentioned the other night. I guess there are "high functioning" folks with this condition as well as those who've found it quite debilitating.

Any thoughts and feedback appreciated. You KNOW how much I value "Vox Populi" over 'Google Searches', ha ha!

Rick