Classical Training

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:38 PM

A couple of things: to Kim C ... yes, I really am a "deck man." In fact, that's the name of my business. By the way, and I hope this gives you smile, my business slogan is: "YOU SHOULD SEE WHAT I SAW!" Also, as one who has had a nodding aquaintence with classical orchestras, I do say that there is need for both extremes, if you will, in the makeup. Remember, a full compliment of orchestra members is about 125 persons. When you get down to the solo level, which is what this thread is really about, it gets real personal (no charge for the humor). I have to mention my friend Don Firth's favorite performer relating to this discussion ... is William Dyer Bennet. (sp?) This man walked the razor thin edge of this thread. I have always enjoyed him on BOTH levels. You figure it out! I'm going to alert Don to this thread, as I'm sure he will be able to add much to this conversation. AIN'T MUDCAT GREAT! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 08:19 PM

I tend to agree with GUEST, Martin Gibson.

The old time music I am obsessed with isn't about the notes, it's about the rhythm. Playing all the right notes is the easy part. Playing them "convincingly" (for want of a better term) in a traditional fiddling style (central WV, eastern KY, Galax VA) appears to be difficult.

To my ear (emphasis on MY EAR) most of the cIassically trained violinsts I know who play old time music sound pretty much like classically trained violinists playing old time music. That's not really what I want to hear. They play all the right notes at the correct speed in the right way, but it is not convincing to me. That's not a criticism, it's just my personal preference.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 05:08 PM

Some formally trained musicians can hack it and some can't. Some self-taught can and some can't. If I could work out what "it" was I wouldn't be posting here, I'd be making some money selling it.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 03:05 PM

Q and Martin are both right.

So, Bob, you really ARE a Deck Man!

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 02:07 PM

Too many musicians are an automation. They read music and play it much the same way a newscaster on TV reads from a teleprompter.

You can teach music theory all day and make someone extremely technical. That doesn't make that person interesting to listen to.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 01:57 PM

Feeling, expression, soul, whatever you want to call it, is the essence in any interpretation. This applies to any repertoire, and any performer, classically trained or not.
Many people think that a classical musician is just following the printed score. This is never true unless the musician is an automaton.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:47 PM

Alanabit ... I can't resist another brief post, that I suppose is really an allegory! You mentioned something like "a wise musician does not use all of his tools for every job." Besides my hobby of folkmusic, I am also a deck builder. Ans as you say, I do not bring every tool I have to every job. My truck couldn't carry them. And besides, and here's the allegory, I would be "overloaded!" CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:44 PM

Using all the tools for every job usually ends up with the baby being strangled!

When I studied the piano, I went to judgings and competitions every year. I have never been a great technical player at anything - this could probably be resolved if I practiced more. My highest marks were always in interpretation. And I have come to realize, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,emily b
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM

Couldn't we ask the same question about any kind of art? Drama, painting, etc? If an actor trains by "method acting" versus something else, or a painter is self taught versus MFA'd, if the art touches someone, isn't that what counts?

I've known folk dancers who were certainly not trained dancers and while they knew which foot went where, they were hopeless at getting the particular style of the dance. Opera star Kathleen Battle just doesn't sound right singing gospel. Many folk musicians wouldn't sound right singing the blues because their voices aren't suitable or their soul isn't pained enough.

I am classically trained and was singing in a small a cappella group. We were doing a contemporary piece and I tried one of the solo lines. I was told I sounded like Mary Poppins singing pop. Sad but true. One the other hand, when I sing Celtic music, my training has helped produce a clear tone and good diction. After all, the words are a very important part of folk songs. No sur titles to folk music.

Is a classically trained singer any worse than a trad folk singer singing a rebel song and not recognizing it as such?
Emily

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:34 PM

Thanks Bob. In fact, I think yours and Kim's approach is typical of a great number of folk musicians. In Köln, I am lucky enough to know Klaus der Geiger, who to my mind is indisputably one of the world's greatest folk musicians. He studied classical violin and composition (under Stockhausen among others), played with the Boston and San Francisco Philharmonic Orchestras and then moved on to a thirty plus year career as a busker singing protest songs. To hear him play live is to experience the sheer vigour of a passionate maestro. He is essentially now a folk musician who has allied exemplary technique to formiddable commitment. The two ingredients feed off each other.
      I like to pick up new skills if I can, because I like to have more than one tool in my bag. It never hurts to know something, but a wise musician does not use all his tools for every job. I think that's the essence of what you and Kim are saying too.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 12:25 PM

I knew a lady who was an extremely classically trained violinist. She was fascinated by country fiddle. She worked at it and became an adequate if not somewhat mediocre fiddler.

She lacked the feel and the soul.

People can read music and get all the training that they will ever want. However, if you are missing the feeling and soul, I think it's somewhat worthless.

What great philospher said, " I read music, but not enough to hurt my playing."

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 10:32 AM

Alanabit, your thoughts trigured off some more of mine. Notice in my previous letter I preferred to use the word "formal" training. A large part of my early education came from a very close friendship with friend I grew up with. He was a child prodigy, performed the violin in concert at age 8. His Father and Mother were both classical musicans and teachers. So I really grew up surrounded by formal music. When I started college, as a freshman music major, within one week I was taking senior level courses. And, like you, I've always been amazed by several trained musicians abilities to pick up just about any instrument, and within a minutes, make wonderful music. Bob

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 10:27 AM

I do both kinds. In my own personal experience, one helps the other.

I started out as a child (of course!) playing the piano by ear. That was all I did for several years. Then I got to piano lessons, and did all that classical stuff. I loved it. It was a challenge. But I never gave up playing by ear.

Then I got into the guitar (can't read tab at ALL), and the fiddle. Anything I know on the guitar is totally by ear, but I can tell you what key I'm in, and the dominant and subdominant and the Fsus4 and all that stuff. Fiddle stuff.... some by ear, some by music, some by a combination of the two. I've been known to look at a piece of sheet music for a fiddle tune and say, I don't like that arrangement, I'm hearing it in my head a different way.

I have been doing some classical violin stuff for the past year, and I enjoy that too. Another challenge. The technical stuff definitely helps my fiddle playing.

As far as meaning in music... well, either you have it, or you don't. I don't believe that's something that can be adequately taught.

Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 10:13 AM

I have several thoughts on this subject and no real hard and fast opinion. The first thing is that "classical training" does not really mean one specific thing. Friends of mine who play at the highest level (chamber music quartets in concert halls) have been trained in the theory and technique of music. More than that they have been educated in approach, interpretation etc. Some would differ, but I believe that there is a difference between training and education.
    I think that what your original post was driving at is that there is a difference between accomplishment on its own and real accomplishment allied to a profound musicality. To be fair to classical musicians, I think they are very aware of this and think and care about it a great deal. Like you, I am quite dazzled at their skill and knowledge.
    In my own experience of classical musicians, I have always been pleasantly surprised by how positively they have reacted to me, even though I will never get near their level of musicianship. I have never found them either patronising or dismissive. I must admit though, I do sometimes wistfully think I wouldn't mind being able to apply their level of technique and knowledge to what I do! Let's have more bridges and fewer borders!

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 10:11 AM

You ask a very good question and one that's been around for a very long time. I'll use myself as an example: I was formally trained in music, starting when I was 12. I studied piano, theory and composition. When I was 14, I started serious voice study and continued till about 21. My voice teachers, three of them, were all classical and operatic singers. At this time I also had the benifit of tutoring in elecution and diction from a longtime radio announcer and performer. I became enthralled with traditional folk music when I was thirteen. I taught myself the basics of guitar about then, but I also studied guitar formally over the years. Now the question, did all this formal training hurt me. In my opinion, no. When I was about 16, I knew is was folkmusic that I wanted to pursue, though I kept up with my formal training. The formal training developed my voice as a musical instrument. The education gave me the ability to read and score music. But my singing 'style' is my own. And I do believe that I can present a ballad, with my voice and guitar, with good diction, with the best of them. Could I do an aria or a German"art" song today? Yes, but not very well. But with a couple of years of re-training and study, I probably could. I still occasionally sing at a wedding or a funeral and it's at those times I realize the value of my earlier study. Hope this helps. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Classical Training
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 09:46 AM

take the "freeze-dried" version - run it through a folk-processing brain - perform the song while the audience is drinking - and

viola! it's thawed!

Subject: Classical Training
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Jul 03 - 09:44 AM

Some here would say, that the notes carry meaning
And others there are who must notate their gleaning
While contestants audition, backstabbing permission
The folk process lives without sophisticate leaning

So, I am courteously wondering just how you feel about the 'classical' approach to folk and traditional music... I am constantly in awe of the sheer mastery and convenience of an instantly read tune... and yet, somehow... this 'freeze dried' version of heartfelt songs... though well preserved... is somewhat lacking in freshness...

...and what's worse, is the implicite denial of deeper substance... by some of the very people who 'profess' to know it so well...

What are your thoughts on this question?

Does the 'classical' approach to folk and traditional music detract from..., or enrich the underlying musical passion?

With much intrinsic questioning, ttr