BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq

Subject: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:41 PM

As those of us who were worried about the Resident's headlong rush to war predicted, resistance in Iraq to US occupation is growing daily, and US and Iraqi casualties are on the rise, with no exit strategy in sight. Now the government is saying the troops may have to remain there for a year, and the cost to US taxpayers, according to Rumsfeld, has doubled from the previous estimate of $2 billion per month.

And one by one, the Resident's stated reasons for going to war are being exposed as the lies we knew them for all along:

1. There is no link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda/9-11.

2. There are no weapons of mass destruction (other than ours).

3. Hussein did not attempt to buy uranium in Niger. (Bush knew this before he made the claim in his State-of-the-Union address.)

4. The Iraqi people do not see our soldiers as their liberators.

MoveOn.org is asking Congress to begin an investigation into the deliberate deception of the American people by the Resident and his henchmen. You can add your voice to this groundswell by clicking on this link.

Let's continue to express out patriotic dissent and work to hold the administration accountable for their unforgivable war crimes.

Remember: If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:08 PM

Viet Nam brought Johnson down, maybe Iraq will bring resident Bush down.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:26 PM

The real question is, will it bring the mob that thought he was so goddamned righteous to their senses? At least one generation of 'em?

A

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:38 PM

Already done. I signed up with MoveOn a while back.

I just heard on this morning's news (NPR) that they're now saying we'll have to keep 145,000 troops in Iraq indefinitely.

Way to go, George! #@%&*@!! (mutter mutter)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: toadfrog
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:51 PM

The worst of it is, even if we get rid of Bush, we are not rid of quagmire. Please consider:

British and American troops are being shot at. The whole country is overrun with looters and bandits. In Baghdad, honest folks can't leave their homes. We disbanded the Iraqui Army, and gave those soldiers no food and nothing to do. Now there are more than 100,000 trained fighters running around loose, armed to the teeth, hungry as hell and mad as hell. Not good. But, we are told, all those people who are shooting at our soldiers are holdout Sadaamists. They will all go away when we catch Sadaam, we are told. Does anyone believe that? Rumsfeld and his guy in Iraq seemed to have operated on the good old Republican theory - if someone is hungry, it is because he/she lacks moral fiber, let 'm eat hay. But it isn't Rumsfeld who will pay, it is the poor grunt on the ground - and a lot of innocent Iraqis.

I anticipate being told that I Hate America and won't support our servicepeople. But I really don't want those guys to get shot. And they must be getting extremely tired of Iraq by now.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 09:55 PM

Well, like I pointed out on another thread, white US males control the politics of the US. They have the money and they purdy much buy what ever government they want and these folks have been so dumbed down that there is nothing that anyopne can say that will get them to see just how sucked into the game they are.

After the last two-plus years of an administration of severly dumbed down white men it is hard to fathom that, other than Al Sharpton, the rest of the field of incumbants and challengers are more, ahhh, white males?

Is there any end in sight?

And, yeah, lots of us were telling the DougR's and Teribus's and others that this is exactly where we were going to find ourselves and they wrote reem after reem telling us just how un-informed we were and now where are these folks? Hiding under there bed. That's where.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 09:59 PM

Um...Bobert...ole buddy -- I would suggest that though it is a very convenient label, there are plenty of white males who don't buy governments -- you and me for example. And that there are plenty of white females who pull power strings over the breakfast table. And that there are plenty of wheelers and dealers who are not white. Even not male!! Maybe we need a better generality to bitch about, eh?

Say, where IS ole DougR these days?

A

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:02 PM

Don, that number actually translates to 435,000 troops -- 145,000 to be rotated home; 145,000 there as occupation force, and another 145,000 to replace them when it's their turn to come home. (And so on for years?)

Toadfrog, reports are that troop morale is at an all-time low, and bound to get worse.

Where are all these soldiers going to come from? It's relatively painless to volunteer for service in peacetime, but I'd imagine enlistment will go way down (if it isn't already) once the kids figure out what sort of hell awaits them.

Amos, I guess we can hope... and work to educate them.

I wonder what our resident ostrich, DougR, would say to the Resident's lies now being exposed? He was so willing at the time to give Bush the benefit of the doubt...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:41 PM

I get no pleasure in seeing my fears and predictions come true.

Wake up, America!!! For many of us who post here, this is our second experience with our government getting us in a completely wrong war--Oh, the ARROGANCE of our government. AND, Many of our government leaders are of our generation, and experienced 1st hand the terrible effect the Vietnam war had on our society.

Did those of us who were socially active then learn nothing from our experience about politics and the execution of power? Or is it that one can not wield offical power without allowing ones self to be co-opted? Why have we not raised a majority generation behind us who cared to think deeply and be involved, and to elect and support congressmen whose votes generally our beliefs and values?

I am so angry. I feel so powerless and ineffective. I am absolutely heartsick.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:45 PM

Amos,

Yeah, I know... I'z jus' messin' with folks tonight. But... when you lokk at the polls (if you can beleive them which is another story) Bush's highest approval ratings come from white guys.

Now, that being said, I don't think its too far a stretch to say that the folks who were most instrumental in having the current squaters in power, are, ahhhhh,.... white guys. Makes ya wonder? Hmmmm? Who has most of the wealth? Ahhh, ... white guys. Whose got the government cature? Ahhhh, guess. Who spent the most to the campaignes to get these "white guys" in power? Ahhhh, guess, part 2... See where I'm going with this?

Ahhh, now I'm not saying that all white guys is bad. Just lots of 'em.

Like think back on yer life. Have you ever been fired from a job. If so, it was probably a white guy that did it. Been egvicted? Been sued? Been accosted? Been laid off? Been repremanded? Been? Been...?

Awww, nevermind. Jus in one of them dark (pun intended) moods...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: LadyJean
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:51 PM

I would love to have registered my indignation, but the petition is to someone in California, where I neither reside nor vote. Could you help us benighted easterners please?

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:56 PM

Michael,

Here's another that could get to the right representative.I couldn't find my way back to the same issue once I signed up. Interesting site, by the way. Thanks for the link.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:02 PM

Iraq...the 51st state....

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:14 PM

Heck, why stop at 51, Amerigin. Howz 30, 'er 73,... 'er two or three hundred?

Heck, the flag is gonna look more like a clear winter sky with all them stars.

Hmmmmmm? Gettin' back to Iraq as the 51st state. Like wouldn't it be wild if they elected Saddam to the Senate? Hey, he could write a book, have a big house in Martha's Vineyard right down the road from the Bushes and be doing a book tour for his latest book entitled "Missed Me"... and all of this in just a few years...

So like why stop with Iraq? Howz Senator Kadafi sound? Or Senator Bin Laden? Hmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM

Lady Jean and Janie -- there's a link on that page that says: "Congressman Woolsey not your representative? Click here".
It will take you to a list of all members of congress, where you can find yours.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:10 AM

Why do you think the Resident is popular? Because some talking head on your television set said so? Do you seriously think the people who bought Congress, the Judiciary and the media weren't smart enough to buy the pollsters too? Or do you think the pollsters weren't for sale? (Support your reasoning with concrete examples.)

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:27 AM

Here's a thread you may not have spotted BLICKY .
Read the instructions carefully, then follow them.

51st State - I thought England became that when Maggie Thatcher crawled up Ronnie Reagan's backside. Nowadays we have Blair trying to insert himself up Bush's. A PAIR OF PRIZE LIARS by anyone's standards.
Over here Blair is trying EVERYTHING he possibly can, to try and distract the public from the fact that the report he used to get Parliament to vote for war, is a total pack of lies.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:39 AM

Did anyone see the poll on CNN last night? 80% of thise responding said Bush lied about Iraq and nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:02 AM

On UK Channel 4, Jon Snow asked their middle-east correspondent Lindsay Hilsum to sum up the mood in Baghdad. "It's terribly sad, Jon," she said. "I have spent time in Baghdad over several years and the people have always been friendly and welcoming. Now that's all gone. There is a real sense of danger, and no-one trusts anyone."

US troops in Baghdad are so inept at the task they've been given that they're now being trained by the Brits, who were never needed in the first place. In northern Iraq, the US tactic is to destroy any remaining relationship with one-time NATO buddy Turkey, just as I and many others predicted even in the immediate aftermath of 9-11.

It isn't hindsight to say that the post-victory aftermath was always going to be harder than the war. Most of the world was saying it beforehand, and the administration even paid lip-service to this view. Yet not a thought was given to the issues involved.

In Afghanistan, less than three per cent of the land area is under ISAF stewardship. The rest is left to warlords, and in many communities life is as bad as ever it was with the Taliban. Attempts at sowing the seeds of a US trained army in Kabul are not helped when its soldiers get shot by their American friends.

Having learnt nothing whatsoever in Iraq and Afghanistan, the administration now runs round threatening Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, you name it, but always standing shoulder to shoulder with the criminal Sharon.

US morality Bush-style is now seen for what it is - victor's justice, at any price. Guantanamo prisoners will be convicted even if they have to be convicted in secret, without their own lawyers, and no opportunity to cross-examine their accusers. No wonder the US will not condemn Sharia law in Saudi Arabia.

As for the Camp Delta motto, "Honorbound to defend freedom," which apparently marines parrot at each other when saluting - what sickening hypocrisy. It would have taken real imagination for a comedian to have written that slogan into a parody.

There has been one tiny bit of progress though. The lynchmob element at Mudcat, so vociferous with messages of revenge and retribution after 9-11, has been shamed to silence. At least until the Holywood blockbuster "Saving Private Lynch" allows them to glow with pride again.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:15 AM

Janie, when you said "Many of our government leaders are of our generation, and experienced 1st hand the terrible effect the Vietnam war had on our society" I hope you didn't think that they were stupid enough to actually see active service.

I think they lived their nice, comfortable, cushioned lives, with odd inconveniences like having to pretend to join the National Guard, and only talked to people who shared their own ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:44 AM

Fortunately the shrub has a short attention span, so maybe the US will just pull out overnight. Then again, maybe that's not how Halliburton got where it is today.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: TIA
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:45 AM

The "ostriches" will never let on that they might have been wrong. Like their hero King George, they will simply re-state their original position to match the facts. (Term borrowed from Richard Cohen...see the blicky).

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 08:33 AM

Janie - it is a sad state of affairs, but please don't let it overwhelm you to the point of helplessness and despair. Please try to cheer up - play some music. The best thing you can do is stay politically aware, speak out when inspired to do so, and vote sensibly, which I'm sure you know and I'm betting you already do. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:28 AM

MSNBC quoted Bush yesterday as admitting we have a "security issue" in Iraq. A security issue? A Security Issue? A SECURITY ISSUE?!!!???

Outrageous.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:33 AM

I wish to hell that folks would stop using the National Guard as an example of draft dodging during 'Nam time!

Yes, there were rich cats' sons, and I'd name some except that would be beating around The Bush, who joined the Guard because of "pull." But!

Dear old LBJ activated 24,000 reservists and Guardsmen in 1968; of these 10,000 were sent to Vietnam and elsewhere. I bloody well know, since both my brother and I were among them -- and he went to Chu Lai and I went to Korea ("blood relatives in a a combat zone" and all that).

That Guard unit won a second Meritorious Unit citation to go with their first, which was won on Guadacanal. Members also won medals from the Bronze Star with V downwards.

Another unit, of the 151st Infantry from Indiana's Guard, was LRRP -- and they "enjoyed" a shower of "Stars" as well, several being Silver as well as Bronze with V.

My cousin served as a point man with the 9th Division.

Not all of the reservists and Guardsmen came home -- we were lucky, since all who were activated originally came back (although some, like my brother, with healed physical wounds and unhealed psychological ones).

Now, GOD DAMN IT!, knock it off, okay???

There were and are f**koffs in every outfit....

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:38 AM

Sorry for the rant, but having been there and done that, we get right touchy about the Guard being called cowards and draft dodgers.

None of use wanted to go, fer goshshakes.

And sitting in SEATAC airport, waiting for the flight back home, one side of the aisle in uniform and the other with long hair, neither side talking to each other even though they're all the same age, each side knowing that with a little twist of fate the sides could be switched....

Actually, I'd much rather have been at Woodstock.

And the Guard and Reserves are often called up today, and they die just as they did in the '60s.

Sorry about the rant, but it's a nerve. And yeah, I agree with the Quagmire....

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: redhorse
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

If the US government thinks it'll be in a position to pull out the troops in just a year, it's only be because they think they'll be able to pass the buck of looking after Iraq to some other sucker. Look out for Bush softening his position towards UN and agreeing that maybe they should after all have a "peacekeeping role". Maybe that was what he needed Blair's support for; so the British would be there to hold the baby when he cuts and runs.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: GUEST,B
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:55 PM

Cut and run is what his detractors want, not what President Bush wants. If Bush were really a liar we would see WMD coming out of very hole-in-the-ground in Iraq, planted by us (US). Easily done if you think about it.

We have about 28,000 homocides in the US each year. Disputed numbers, granted, and "murder" and "homocide" are not exactly the same thing. We have lost about 100 young men in Iraq by combat/assination and about the same in vehicle accidents. None of us is happy about any of this.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:49 PM

Looking back to the 40's, the Germans also proved very adept at scoring quick military victories with their superb military forces...but not nearly so good at dealing with the aftermath in the conquered areas. This is because the main talent of highly organized aggressors is destruction, not society-building...and also because people just don't like being invaded and conquered by foreigners for some reason (?). Strange, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:22 PM

Just an observation: GUEST,B's quoting of homocide statistics makes it sound as if it's safer to be in uniform in Iraq than it is to be back home in the USA. Lot of food for thought there. . . .

In the meantime, how come in the background I can hear echoes of Pete Seeger singing Knee Deep in the Big Muddy?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:30 PM

Armies aren't designed to rebuild countries, never have been. Armies are designed to fight and win wars.

During WWII, there were "Civil Affairs Units" sent as part of an invasion -- for example, my father served in the 4th CAU in Manila. These units were specially trained and supported to provide temporary government, police, and infrastructure support until the local civilian government could again take over.

Regular soldiers, infantry, armor, artillery, MPs, aren't trained or focused for civil affairs and shouldn't be expected to handle such duties.

Seems to me like someone has blundered....

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:31 PM

Like most of us, I'm heartsick about the whole thing. The only thing I'm glad of at this moment is that the gungho, chop chop mudcats who crowed about our easy 'win' in Iraq are not at this moment making excuses for the dismal situation, complete with references to the "battle plan", as though they expected us to swallow it. I appreciate their silence.

Does anyone care to make a(ny) prediction as to a likely scenario for the next two years in the US? Will we find ourselves spread so thin across the globe that we implode? Or will we become a lauded Superman who flies to the aid of the downtrodden, afflicted and poor? Will we enter a boom economy as we make war- or will we have to suck it up and 'use it up, make it do or do without'?

For the record, I'm in favor of sending our share of peacekeeping troops into Liberia under the umbrella and leadership of the UN and in conjunction with other countries' troops adhering to the various treaties and agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: mg
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:31 PM

Of course there are many problems...how could there not be? Remove the police structure here and see what happens overnight. But if anyone can stand to hear some good news, and please don't read further if it will upset you, I just read a very encouraging report from a major in the Corps of Engineers...reporting on how the oil was being pumped, power was being restored, water was being somewhat purified and pumped. It is going to be a very prosperous country, and there will be a ripple effect. We do need to have a "civil affairs" setup, and we need to specific ally train peacekeepers...someone wisely suggested that that is a very good place for women in the military...you certainly need some for checkpoint situations involving women civilians, and you don't have some of the problems that you have with a force of young males in a country..
I think from the start there should have been plans to use certain segments of the Iraqi Army for security and of course for engineering....the Iraqi engineers pleaded to be put to use...of course there are still military considerations but who knows...

mg

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:24 PM

If we want to play Empire builder, for goodness' sake, we have to learn how to build Empires. The French colons and the Brits both left behind them very workable infrastructure -- no matter how wrong their colonizations were, the machinery for hygeine, education, and production were in place in Rabat, Tangiers, Kuala Lumpur, and the major cities of Injjuh. Maybe these places would have done better to evolve their own ways of building sewers and pipes -- but how many ways can there be? The point is that if you are going to overthrow order and bring chaos, you better be ready to put in some alternative form of order, or some one else will step up and do it for you.
Saddam was suppressing the hell out of the people of Baghdad, but it was an orderly suppression. (Of course, graves are orderly and quiet, too!).

It was really dumb not to have a plan of restoration in hand and ready to roll out the minute it was militarily feasible.

What did Bush think -- spontaneous civilization was going to spring full-blown from the smoke and blood of his little battle?

Sheesh!


A

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:36 PM

The die is cast, I fear. IMHO Bush and the policies he has set into motion will result in the United States government causing more death, destruction and terror in the world than Osama bin Laden ever dreamed of being able to cause. We will continue to lose civil rights, which is a much greater threat to our democracy than any outside force could be. We are indeed entering a quagmire. There is still time to turn back and limit the damage done to our country and our world, but it will have to happen quickly--and it ain't gonna.

With a nine year old son that I absolutely will not see senselessly sacrificed to this, my Country's terribly misbegotten "mission", I am just starting to research emmigration options. I have little doubt that the USA will still be deeply and tragically embroiled in this when he turns 18.

President Bush and terrorists all act out of conviction. Pretty damn scary. Those who do not recognize that belief and truth are not synonyms are always dangerous, because they can never recognize or acknowledge the legitimacy of another perspective. This is one of the main roots of war, and what the propoganda machines play to in rallying a population to a "cause".

Let there be mercy.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:46 PM

It's like we (us) Americans DON'T learn! I first served in the Army in that strange period between Korea and the beginnings of Nam. I was in active reserve status (medics) during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Then came the Berlin Wall, and guess what, I was active duty again. I served willingly. Since those times, I've observed mistake after mistake after mistake in U.S. foreign policy and wars. I am EXTREMELY angry and frustrated. I do all that I know how to do. I read. I study. I discuss. I ask questions. I ALWAYS vote. And yet I feel completly powerless. When was the election held that voted the U.S. as "BOSS OF THE WORLD?" I know I didn't sleep through it, as I keep alert. Perhaps it will be through serious and thoughtful discussion groups like this, worldwide through the freedom of the Internet, that will save us from ourselves. I dunno? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:15 AM

Hear, hear, Bob. Keep on staying alert--it's our only defense against creeping mass hypnosis.

A

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:25 AM

I hope so Bob.

We need to talk WITH those who don't share our beliefs about the course on which our country should be. Nothing much will change if we just talk among ourselves. Preaching to the choir, you know.

I for one welcome the serious thoughts of those who thought (or still think) we did the right thing to go into Iraq. I want to know--as events at home and abroad unfold, in what direction(s) everyone's thoughts are evolving.   

Our best hopes for enfluencing others toward our own point of view, is to first understand and appreciate theirs.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 01:05 AM

Janie: Yes, in theory of course you are right. And I did hear someone once give a thoughtful opinion to the effect it would be right to go into Iraq. One could build a respectable case, for example, that it was necessary somehow to control Sadaam, that the sanctions were ultimately even worse for the Iraqis than invading them, and that the whole area had to be stopped from gradually sliding into disaster. If someone used that argument, I'd have to think for a while about my answer. And we could intelligently try to persuade each other, or agree to disagree. But the majority don't think like that. They think Sadaam caused the crash at the World Trade Center, or at least supported Al Quaeda and was about to give them chemical weapons and maybe A-bombs, and that we had to invade Iraq to Fight Terrism [sic] and Eradicate Evil. And if they fervently believe things that just aren't true, what do you say? Just, "no, you're wrong, you idiot"?

Even worse, a lot of people are just plain proud their country is powerful and can kick foreigners around. What do you say to them? Try convincing GUEST Claymore, say. An exercise in frustration, ending in a screaming match.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: GUEST,B
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:08 PM

Don Firth: Thanks. I would rather be a soldier stationed in Iraq than be forced to live in some of our urban areas.

General statement: There is a difference between "nation building" and "society building". I think the US is a great nation. As far as a society, you tell me. On your next vacation, does anyone plan to visit So Central LA? So Bronx?

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:10 PM

The reason the Bush administration went into this thing without an exit strategy is because they don't plan to leave. This was their first major step in establishing a military presence in the Middle East. Rather than waiting for a withdrawal of our troops, watch for our presence in the Middle East to expand.

Don Firth*    *    *
Addendum:—
Interesting! I tried to go to the Project for the New American Century's web site so I could supply you with a link to the relevant article (written by those who are currently members of the Bush administration) so you could read their intentions written in their own words. But this morning I got:

Network Error

Unable to request URL from host
www.newamericancentury.org:80: Connection refused

Maybe too many people have been exploring this site, reading the articles, learning the Bush administration's true intentions, and not liking it much. Anyway, here is a link to an article that gives a brief synopsis of some of the things found on the PNAC web site—> BOINK! In this article, Pitt does not exaggerate. He merely tells you what he learned by reading stuff on the PNAC web site.   

Speculation:—It may have been taken off because it provides too good an insight into the intentions and workings of the Bush administration (again, in their own words). Because of this, whenever people accuse me of overstating the case, I've been referring them to the PNAC's web site to show them that I get my information from those in the best position to know what the Bush administration is really up to—the Bush administration's policy-makers.

I'll be interested to see if it's gone permanently.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:22 PM

Thanks for posting that information Don. Reading it carefully is enough to put me over the edge. I wonder where this is all going to end? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:27 PM

By the way, GUEST,B--I wasn't suggesting anything like that. I was merely pointing to the irony of it apparently being safer in a war zone than it is on some city streets in the U. S. There seem to be a lot of people in this country who are not particularly bothered by violence and even regard it as high on the agenda as a method for solving whatever problems they might have. Too bad so many of them are in the government.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:10 PM

Don--it is getting scarier and scarier, isn't it?

Toadfrog--all I know is name calling never works. And it takes two to have a screaming match.

Educating others is more likely to be more persuasive than arguing with them. And to really influence some one, you have got to understand where they are starting from. Can't do that without respectful listening. Besides, it isn't necessary to bring everyone over to your point of view, just enough people who vote to either oust Bush or make it clear to him that he will lose the election if he doesn't change his foreign policy.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:11 PM

Upon reflection, I don't think that there will be an Iraqi quagmire, or that such a thing already exists.

I think that it's an Afghan-Iraqi quagmire, and soon to be an Afghan-Iraqi-Liberian quagmire.

"...we were neck deep in the Big Muddy..."

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:04 PM

Rapaire ... Hmmmm? Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: GUEST,B
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:41 PM

(alias Claymore)

Thank you, Rapaire. Some of us appreciate your service. I too was National Guard in the Viet Nam era, just lucky no one called me. "Society building" was used where I feel "nation building" was meant, somewhere back in this thread. Shure no one has the _____ to explain their position on this one?

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:02 PM

Saddest thing about the "quagmire" is that it has marginalized the US as a respected super power that sometimes does what world opinion expects of it, such as in Bosnia, for example.

In many forms of self defense one is taught to use the "minumum force" necessary but after the invasion of two countries in the last 18 or so months, the US can no longer hide under the *self defense* banner.

Sure, it can go ahead and invade one country after another until it itself implodes from the costs of doing so, but it can no longer expect the rest of the world to buy any of it's rationales for going to war...

Yeah, right, Us! Sure they're ou to get you... or us... Hahahahah...

Good news for the new generation of bad people....

Just something for you neo-cons to ponder...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 12:47 AM

Bobert ... Question. What is a neo-con? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: As predicted: Quagmire Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 01:39 AM

Neo-conservative. George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, Dan Quayle, and Ollie North are all what has come to be called "neo-conservatives" or "neo-cons." What marks them as distinct from old fashioned conservatives such as Barry Goldwater is that conservatives like Goldwater are much too liberal and progressive for them. I would not necessarily go so far as to say that neo-cons are crypto-fascists, but when you get that far to the right, the lines of demarcation do tend to get a bit fuzzy. Authoritarianism, elitism, militarism, erosion of civil liberties, a drive for world empire. . . .

Well, certainly not! This is America! It can't happen here!          Can it?

What some right-wingers will try to tell you is the words "neo-conservatives" or "neo-cons" refer to former liberals who have seen the light and have converted to the true faith, but that's pure hog wallow.

Don Firth