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National Stereotypes
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Amos Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:16 AM The last time we went to the Dominican Republic, we were told no passports were needed; but when we got to the airport they required them! Fortunately, we had them at home, so we only lost a few hours of our vacation as the airline took repsonsibility for their contradictions and let us on the next flilght. I don't believe the requirement was diplomatic -- I think the airline was being anal. A |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:08 AM Why should you? You don't need one to go to France, for example. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ghirotondo Date: 25 Jul 03 - 09:47 AM If our mr. Bossi succeeds in splitting Italy in two (the 'Padania' and the South), I will need a passport to go from Florence to Milan... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 03 - 09:32 AM Impressive list of countrie US citizens can go to without oassports. How far does it work the other way? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: clueless don Date: 25 Jul 03 - 09:28 AM Thank you, Little Hawk, for the additional information on the Enterprise (World War II version.) I was born at the tag end of 1949, so while World War II was a central event in the lives of my parents and other older family members, it was only a peripheral event to me. My uncle was wounded at the Battle of the Bulge, but neither he nor any other family member has ever told much in the way of "war stories", at least not in my hearing. I've picked up some World War II history over the years (much of it from movies!), but I've never made a systematic study of the war. Perhaps that makes me a "typical American" (said with a sneer), and thus ties this into the topic of this thread! As I'm sure you guessed, I was interpreting "famous" in the sense of "having fame" or "well known". I was *not* interpreting it in the sense of "deserving of fame", "important", or "successful in battle". c.d. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 25 Jul 03 - 08:52 AM correction of my last post: 3) the totally uninterested [evidently] Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,JTT Date: 25 Jul 03 - 06:58 AM I've had a fair amount of experience of different races and nations at close quarters in the last couple of years. Only one difference I noticed between them: some people had good manners and some had bad. But that didn't seem to be connected to their nationality or race. Sorry to be po-faced, but the guilty snicker of racism conceals something quite nasty. As for America being enough for Americans to explore - fine if you want it that way! But it's nice to see other places and hear other languages, eat different food, see different customs, and meet new people from quite a different culture once in a while. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 25 Jul 03 - 03:37 AM Let's talk a little bit about the Germans : They have potato bellies and live of bratwurst (fried sausage) with sauerkraut (sliced cabbage preserved with large additions of salt in big barrels, may be eaten raw or cooked). That's why they were called by the Yankees (including over here Southern rebels, Western cattledrivers and Californian gays, too) Krauts. Their main sport is stone lifting, which leeds to an excessive swilling of beer (a yellowish to dark brown liquid leading to abuse and causing temporary to eternal headaches). I gave these characreristics of the tribes of my fatherland because I enjoy this thread very much. Just do me one favour: Don't give a passport to B.S.! It's enough to see him on the screen over here! And now let me plead "not guilty" for some US-Americans. We saw a lot of them over here; now they are fortunately deported to a Near Eastern contry studying geography the tactical way. A rough characterisation of the types you can meet: 1) The really interested ones (learning even a foreign language!) Once I gave an American soldier a lift and I was dumbfounded how well he spoke German fluently. On leave he travelled all over Europe with German friends. 2) The slightly interested, even travelling abroad, but never preparing for a travel, like this student of geography from the Middle West we took with us from the heart of Germany to Palermo, Italy. The only word in a foreign language he knew was "arriba!" (Mexican influence presumed.) He never got over the day when going to Italy we drove through 5 countries with 4 currencies, but only (thank God) 2 languages (Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Italy). 3) The totally interested. He thinks Germany is a big jungle crossed by a vast number of autobahns. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jul 03 - 01:29 AM Hi, clueless don. Yes, it's debatable whether the U.S.S. Enterprise is indeed the most famous American warship. I'd say it certainly was during World War II, and for good reason, since it played a key role in virtually every important Pacific Theatre carrier battle of the war (with the exception of the first one...Battle of the Coral Sea). The starship Enterprise was most certainly named after that aircraft carrier. However, the frigate Constitution may indeed be more famous. So might the Maine or the Monitor or the Confederate ironclad Virgina (Merrimac). It all depends on your outlook, I suppose. The Arizona is also very famous, of course, for the same reason as the Maine...it blew up in a spectacular fashion at an unexpected moment, and served as the inspiration for Americans going to war. The Missouri was famous because the Japanese surrender ceremony took place on her deck. Well, take your pick, I guess. For the finest fighting record it has to be either the Constitution or the Enterprise, both of which served gloriously, and survived their wars. The Enterprise unfortunately was broken up for scrap sometime in the 60's. Too bad. I think she should have been preserved as World War II's most tenacious and successful aircraft carrier. The Japanese had a really good shot at sinking her in two battles...Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz, but were not quite able to manage it. They did manage to sink her two sisterships, the Yorktown and the Hornet, and her near-sistership the Wasp, and also the giant Lexington at Coral Sea. Of the original big six US carriers in service in Dec '41 only 2 survived the war...Enterprise and Saratoga. - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:13 PM Here's where Americans can go with either a valid picture I.D. or sometimes, a birth certificate: ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA ARUBA BAHAMAS BERMUDA CANADA DOMINICA DOMINICAN REPUBLIC GRENADA JAMAICA MEXICO MICRONESIA, FEDERATED STATES OF MIQUELON ISLAND NETHERLANDS ANTILLES PALAU, THE REPUBLIC OF PANAMA SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS SAINT LUCIA ST. PIERRE SAINT VINCENT AND THE GRENADINES VIRGIN ISLANDS, British WEST INDIES, British Gathered from the U.S. Department of State. I believe Belize used to be on that list, because I didn't need a passport when I did archaeological work their in 1989. Ther are also: Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, etc. which are part of the U.S. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 24 Jul 03 - 08:59 PM Check my post above. A U.S. citizen does not need a passport to visit Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, several (non-U.S. possession) islands in the Caribbean, and a few Central American countries, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Jul 03 - 07:44 PM No, you don't need a passport to visit Canada. I believe the U.S. and Canada have the longest stretch of unprotected border in the world. I don't believe you need a passport for Mexico. I'm not sure about the Caribbean countries or Bermuda. Cuba is a whole different story. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 03 - 07:05 PM You don't need a passport to visit Canada then? Very sensible. And would that apply to other countries in America? Does it work both ways? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Jul 03 - 06:59 PM McGrath - did you add Canada to your totals? The U.S. is not the only country on the continent. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:48 PM "... a continent four times the size of Europe " Area of US 9,629,091 sq km, slightly smaller than Europe, which is 9,938,000 sq km. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: clueless don Date: 24 Jul 03 - 11:07 AM Don's the name, and thread creep is my game. Little Hawk, I was intrigued/puzzled by your statement "...the Enterprise (named after the most famous American warship of all time)...". I did a google search and discovered that a U.S. aircraft carrier named the Enterprise was the most decorated ship of World War II. You have contributed to my education! But "most famous"?? I had never heard of it before I did the web search. I am aware of the more recent nuclear-powered carrier of the same name, but I wouldn't call it "famous." Are you saying that the Enterprise is more famous than the Constitution? than the Bonhomie Richard? than the Monitor? than the Maine? the Arizona? the Missouri? Maybe you meant most famous to non US citizens? Or maybe you were being ironic :) ? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: katlaughing Date: 24 Jul 03 - 10:29 AM Kim, those are two of our favs on tv, too. They both do a great job, don't they? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:34 AM Nashville is a huge tourist destination. It draws people from all over the world. It used to draw a lot more, before they closed Opryland. Now the city wonders why tourism is down. Could be that people might travel across the globe for the Opry, but not for Opry Mills (the giant shopping mall that took Opryland's place). I had a passport. I believe it's expired now. There is a great show on PBS that Mister and I watch every week, called Globe Trekker. They go to all different places all around the world, and usually to non-tourist attractions. Plus, I also enjoy Rick Steves' travel show on PBS. I was having lunch with a friend the other day, and we sat outside on the patio. He said, if this could be anywhere in the world, where would you want it to be? My answer? Istanbul. :-) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: John MacKenzie Date: 24 Jul 03 - 09:08 AM William Worthy isn't worthy to enter our door, Went down to Cuba he's not American anymore. Someday very soon I will not be surprised to hear [sic] The whole world is off limits, visit Disneyland this year. Phil Ochs.........God how I miss that man. Giok |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jul 03 - 08:58 AM True, true, Guest of 12:58 a.m., true, true, true. Who CARES about the Giant's Causeway, the Great Glen, the Alps, the Lake at Lucerne, the Fjords, the Steppes, Everest, the Burren, Fuji, the Pacific Deeps? Of what interest is Victoria Falls or Kilamanjaro or South Island? Damn right! Let's just stay home, watch the Cubs on TV, and drink Budweiser. Like I once said about the Atlantic, "Looks just like Lake Michigan. You can't see the other side of THAT, either." Or were you engaging in irony? I was. And you know what? My passport is still good, even though it's been a whole year since I last used it! As for traveling, gee, Guest, I've missed out on visiting Oklahoma, Arkansas and Hawaii in the US. In Canada I've missed Nunavit, Labrador, Newfoundland, PEI. Haven't been South Of The Border at all. Golly dang, how're YOU doing? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 03 - 12:58 AM You are a kook!
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: toadfrog Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:28 PM Giok: So far as I ever knew, before the Argentines invaded the Falklands they were exactly where they are today. Have I missed something important? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: LadyJean Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:19 PM My cousin John, of the Subversive Cheese thread, has a chum in England. When said chum came to visit him in Kentucky, he suggested they run up to Wyoming for the weekend. Suggesting that Americans are not the only ones who are geographically challenged. When I was in high school, our British biology teacher told the class, "The average I.Q. in the United States is 100. The average I.Q. in Great Britain is 98, probably because we imported so many Irish." The whole class signe the card that proclaimed her an honorary Irishman. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,Pointer out of facts Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:38 PM 'course the sun never set on the British Empire-God didn't trust the beggars in the dark! And don't support clowns, they are parodies of Scotsmen. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 07:39 PM What I'm thinking of is the recent case when the Italian Prime Minister in the European Parliament got angry at a German MEPO and said he'd make a fine concentration camp guard. When the place erupted he tried to wriggle out of it by saying that he'd been talking ironically, implying that Germans didn't understand irony (ie hadn't got a sense of humour.) But very clearly he wasn't being in the least ironic. It's very common for people making racist or sexist cracks to claim "it was just irony" when they get challenged, and to indicate that anybody objecting clearly hasn't got the naus to appreciate subtleties like that. The essential thing in irony is that the surface meaning is actually the reverse of what you appear to be saying. It's not the same as exaggerating for effect, or saying something that you don't mean absolutely literally. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:21 PM I miss your point in the last sentence McGrath. If you say that people are using irony as a defence when their remark wasn't meant ironically (in effect it was meant to hurt), how does that make the person objecting lack a sense of humor? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:14 PM Simply saying something is irony does not mean the writer was successful in conveying the intent. That is when it comes across as sarcasm. Two ways irony that isn't meant hurtfully can miss the mark - one is when it is taken literally. The other is when it is taken as being mean ironically, but understood to be intended to hurt, ie sarcasm. But very often people will use a claim that they have been speaking ironically as a defence when someone objects to some offensive remark which wasn't meant ironically at all. That has the advantage of implying that the person objecting is lacking in wit or in a sense of humour. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:56 PM Okay, I will reveal the Great Canadian WMD, our Secret Weapon, with which we intend to subvert and conquer the USA. Are you ready? Its initials are B.S. Its reality is...Bill Shatner! Yes, the Master of both BAAAAD Acting and Unforgettable vocal renditions of popular favourites. What the hell, maybe I should not have revealed this top secret info at this juncture, but what difference will it make? He's unstoppable. Even now he resides in the heartland of the USA, has become a cultural icon of America, remains the definitive commander of the Enterprise (named after the most famous American warship of all time), and appears regularly on obscure TV shows. His daughter is more attractive than Bush's daughter (and more sensible too), and you can't do anything about it! Be afraid, yanks, be very afraid... p.s. Jim Carey is one of our agents too! Go Canada go! - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:49 PM .... and that McGrath is the problem. It is a fine line. Irony is either the use of expression in direct opposite to their usual meaning or an event that is opposite of what is expected. Simply saying something is irony does not mean the writer was successful in conveying the intent. That is when it comes across as sarcasm. You can argue that it is the fault of the reader to miss the point, but often it is the writer who is too sure of themselves to realize they miss the boat. You can say that some of the comments posted above are examples of irony, but I would argue that in many cases the intention WAS to hurt, or at least provoke. Ron |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:33 PM "...a problem with sarcasm." You mean in recognising it, or responding to it? Sarcasm is just irony when it is intended to hurt, in some degree at least. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Ron Olesko Date: 23 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM We Americans have more of a problem with sarcasm. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jul 03 - 01:00 PM I don't think it's that Americans have particular prolems with irony, but my impression is that they need to have it confirmed that it is irony before they read it that way (eg "smile when you say that"). Back here it tends to be the other way round, remarks are likely to be taken as meant ironically, unless you actually qualify them with "and I mean that" or some equivalent indication. "That's a nice hat you're wearing." "Why, what's wrong with it?" "I had a lovely time" "You always complain about everything!" "Tony Blair is doing a great job" "I suppose you think you could do better..." (And in that example, the reply is of course meant ironically as well.) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: GUEST,MMario Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM Growing up on Cape Cod there were some who believed that if you crossed the Bridges you would disappear forever....There be monsters out there... Seriously - we lived approx 5 miles from the bridge to the mainland and several members of my High School graduating class had never crossed it in their lives. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:54 AM I don't get this thread.... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:07 AM Many Americans (from the U.S. - lest we offend our friends south and north of the border) do not get irony. This is possibly because it is a more subtle form of humor, therefore more difficult to do well, and less likely to be a regular part of mass media TV, movies, books, etc. Americans are therefore less exposed to it and when they are, sometimes (many times) outright don't get it. This is nobody's fault really, people seem the be happy enough with the mass media stuff (or else they would try to see and read other stuff) and the mass media people keep doing the same stuff because enough people regularly will buy it. There are plenty of Americans who enjoy irony and other less-common forms of humor and we search them out, just like we do with folk music (that's why we're here at Mudcat). NOW that the serious part is through . . . We had a great bit of irony in last Sunday's church service that had the congregation laughing & rolling around in the pews: there's a part of the service where the kids come up front and the minister tells them a story or something. We had a lay minister to teach the kids some important words about life. He chose to do this by playing the game Hangman. The last word he used was "perserver." He started out alright, but when an "r" was guessed he missed one of them. Then he put the "s" in the wrong place and incorrectly put an "a" where the 2nd "e" should be. At that point he gave up, tried to write the word, but did so incorrectly, and turned to the kids and told them that to perserver means to never give up even when the going is tough. Some of the anal retentive types in the pews didn't think it was funny, but the rest of us love the beautiful bit of irony that occurred. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Rapparee Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:51 AM Always bothers me when people yell "Racism" when they mean religious prejudice, or national prejudice. "Anti-semitic" does not mean "anti-Jewish" but that's how it's used, "anti-American" should be "anti-US" and so on. US folks have plenty of ignorance about their own country, too, compatriots of mine. There are those who ask if they need passports to visit New Mexico, if you can use "American Money" in Alaska, or if Idaho really exists at all. The answers to the above are: yes, if you're from some furrin country; of course, in fact, leave all of it and they'll take care of it for you; and nobody knows, not even those who live here. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jul 03 - 05:03 AM English food aint so bad. Roast beef, puddings and pies , marmalade that's not 99% sugar, proper breakfasts, need I go on? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: katlaughing Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:26 AM I guess that guy hadn't ever read The Virginian...smile when you call me that...or, one of the two of you was just being too subtle... in our house we always saved up the ironing for during the World Series...**bg** actually there was so much irony in my family, esp. my mom's very English side, that we had to watch for rust when one of us would get wet...we also sank pretty easily:->.... I'll stop now, promise... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: John MacKenzie Date: 23 Jul 03 - 03:14 AM I thought when I started this thread that a few ghosts would creep out of a few closets, and what fun it's been so far. At times I thought of bursting into several choruses {chorii?} of This Land is your Land, and at others I've thought, "I hope he/she's not taking this too seriously" There have been, and always will be national stereotypes, and thus prejudices, but we've all got our good and bad points. I love what little of the US I've seen so far, and I hope to see more, but I'm going to Australia this year. Late one night in a bar near Glifada in Greece, where there was an American airbase, I was introduced to a guy who was a little the worse for drink. He said "Hi my name's ......., I'm an American. "Well" I said, "Nobody's perfect", jokingly, and with a smile on my face. Well this guy exploded, and declared a deep desire to shake me warmly by the throat. Is this what they mean when they say that Americans don't do irony?? Giok |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Bert Date: 23 Jul 03 - 02:59 AM An American is someone who owns a riding lawnmower, a power drill, an electric toothbrush and an exercise machine. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 22 Jul 03 - 11:02 PM I wouldn't mind a Japanese country home... As for a wife I'd prefer to go Australian (I was going to say that I'd prefer to go Down Under, but that didn't sound quite right). |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:29 PM no stereotypes there, eh? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:28 PM I spent a few weeks in the People's Republc of China - and one of my Chnese friends told me: In a perfect world, a man would have an American salary, Chinese food, an English country home and a Japanese wife ... In the worst of all worlds, a man would have a Chinese salary, English food, a Japanses apartment, and an American wife. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:05 PM Canada has the "Red Green Show"...which absolves them of 82.417% of their sins. (about that National Lampoon link of PJ O'Rourke back up there...it is, of course, **Parody**, but there sure is a lot of PJ O'Rourke buried in those mostly un-funny and hateful bits. I decry censorship, but I suspect those vaguely witty characterizations have already been stolen by those who will use them seriously.....ah, well...I've seen worse.) |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Blackcatter Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:54 PM Ya know that many motels in Kissimmee and Orlando fly the Canadian flag along with the U.S. flag in order to encourage the Canucks to stay. Of course the motels are mangaged by Pakistanis and cleaned by Hatians and Jamaicans. My latest stats show that 850,000 Canadians visited Orlando last year. Of course I visited Quebec, so I guess that makes us even. |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:26 PM There WAS no BS in all of Canada prior to the establishment of the 13 American colonies as a single nation. Absolutely none. In 1790-1843 we sent survey parties and wilderness-trained voyageurs and top intellects armed with Berlitz dictionaries, and zilch, nada, nothing, zero, zip! There is a small industry there now, centered mainly in Toronto and Ottowa, but that's only after 227 years of constant tending, fertilizing, inspiring, coaxing, training and encouragement. A |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:22 PM B.S. - a Canadian export? You claim that too????????? |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:06 PM That's the counter-invasion, guys. We gotta fight back somehow. But our real secret weapon is the matchless power of.... ***BS*** Ya know what that stands for? Do I have to spell it out for you? Y'know, I wouldn't mind visiting New Mexico myself, but I was sorta hoping for "regime change" in the USA first. - LH |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: artbrooks Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:55 PM Lots of Ontario license plates here in New Mexico all winter... |
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Subject: RE: National Stereotypes From: curmudgeon Date: 22 Jul 03 - 08:25 PM Except for the mob that invades NH and Maine. |
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