Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: kendall Date: 18 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is wht we are put on this earth to rise above." Katherine Hepburn. The African Queen. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: The Vulgar Boatman Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM And when they enable us to live without lawyers, Richard, I'll believe you... |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:53 PM Civilisation and education enable us to rise above our nature and even nature. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM ""YES!"" Don T. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: kendall Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM Is it true that Witches believe that God and nature are one and the same? If so, then I'm a witch. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: VirginiaTam Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM ana:l nathrakh, u:rth va:s bethud, dokhje:l djenve: just a friendly curse have a nice day |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Hollowfox Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:08 PM The answer is yes, same as any other group of people. I've always found it amusing to substitute some other group in a question like this one, just to see how it hold up. Lithuanians or Persbyterians as substitutes usually bring on a chuckle, or stop the questioner in their tracks, at least in my neighborhood (not many of either, I guess, so they sound exotic.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: GUEST,Captain Pugwash Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM I like witches, they're cool. There are good and bad people so it follows there are good and bad witches, right? You would have to get to know them to really find out. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Micca Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM Why do Pagans wear Black? Because they don't make anything darker.......Yet! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:02 PM Ahh, as to practices outside the UK. I don't know if this is 'witchcraft' in the same terms as the Western Christian fantasy.. But I did speak to a woman who left South Africa in large part, because of the danger some years ago to young blond male children from some 'witch-doctors' who considered the genitals of same, to be very magically potent ..and thus worth murdering blue-eyed blond male children for. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Diva Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:56 PM Virginia T.....read what Sins said.......it is part of that culture...sadly...... |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:34 PM I don't quite know why Gardner ever spoke of Wicca as 'witchcraft'. Modern Wicca is a syncretic modern Nature revering religion in it's own right, and has more to do with Masonic ritual structure and indeed Crowley's visionary materials (as SO'P comments imply) than any nightmarish fantasy, that the Mediaeval Church generated from it's guilt consumed fanatical repression of all things natural - and natural consequent collective psychosis - as "witchcraft". Yes, there were (and are in all cultures) folk magical practices usually focused upon the basics of life (love, sex, hurting people, healing people, protecting people, fertility... etc.). But the cunning folk who provided such lay services to the community, would have considered themselves Christian. And along with knowledge of simples and traditional folklore pertaining to talismanic natural objects - as well as likely experiential knowledge of hallucinogens, they very often called upon the various powers of the Christian Saints to intervene on their customers behalf. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: VirginiaTam Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM There are children abused and murdered in the UK as well under the pretense of exorcising demons. The abuse and murder of 8 year old Victoria Climbie set the "Every Child Matters" wheel in motion. What little I have been exposed to of Wicca (my younger daughter was practising for a short time) seems good. I still want the bumper sticker that says "Walk The Paths Of The Ancients" and "My other car is a broom" |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: SINSULL Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:26 PM Is that like Kendall saying "...as long as it doesn't scare the horses."? |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:37 AM An it harm none, do what ye will. Crowley-lite. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Becca72 Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:01 AM Having just read the recently refreshed Monty Python quote thread, all I can think of to contribute is... She turned me into a newt! I got better. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: SINSULL Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:09 AM In Nigeria and the Congo, the torturing and murder of child witches is on the rise. All it takes is for someone to accuse and a child can be driven from his home, have nails driven into his head or be set afire to drive out the evil spirits. It seems incredible but there have been recent cases in ther States as well involving immigrants from the Caribbean. Unusual birthmarks, misbehaving, epilepsy - all proof of witchcraft. GOOGLE child witches for more info. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: olddude Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM a thread that resurfaced to pit good people against good people. to my pagan friends ... blessing to all of you |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:04 AM Oh, how completely coincidental! A brand new mystery guest has resurrected an old debate about witches, right after a brand new member creates one on Bible prophesy. Must surely be a 'Sign' of something.. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Gervase Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:33 AM Why does the 'rede' use archaic King James-style English when it was written in the 20th century? |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Bryn Pugh Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:29 AM Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil- An it harm none, do what ye will. So mote it be. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:19 AM I meant a good priest. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Peace Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM I prefer Timex, tell ya the truth. They are inexpensive and they also keep good time. I'd likely want a Rolex were I to be space travelling, but for normal every-day 'could you tell me the time' kinda stuff, Timex is the one. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Janie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM Dadgum. I shoulda added '100' to that last post. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Janie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM And another good witch fer ya. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: number 6 Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM Richard Bridge asks ... "show me a good one" here's a good witch biLL |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: kendall Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:44 PM Witches got a bad rap from the Catholic church which didn't like the competition. I know some witches and they are decent folks. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM Show me a good one. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: GUEST,Mystie012 Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM Hollywood has done so much damage to the image of the beautiful Wiccans. Generations of children have grown up believing that witches are ugly old people when the exact opposite is true. They are beautiful, healthy women of Nature. Why do we even have to ask if witches are good or bad? Hollywood. And vilification by the patriachal christian church with their evil inquisitors. A more accurate subject would be "Priests! Good and Bad"? |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Peg Date: 10 Aug 03 - 11:37 PM The idea of "good" or "bad" seems to me to refer to behavior or actions. Modern witches (some refer to themselves as neo-pagans or Wiccans) generally speaking are as morally upright as anyone else. Codes of conduct regarding magical use are usually more strict and proscribed than, say, those of Christians who liberally "pray" for others (which is what magic amounts to in many instances. There is some knee-jerk adherence to "the Wiccan Rede" (An it harm none, do what ye will; Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; love is the law, love under will--all this is paraphrased from Crowley) but if one were to ask a modern satanist about their moral code it would sound remarkably similar. But then, what actual satanists do, as opposed to what the Hollywood or media version suggests, is not familiar to the average layperson (who also might think anyone referring to themselves as a Witch in this day and age might as well be playing Dungeons and Dragons or other fantasy games 24-7). Witchcraft and paganism, in the contemporary sense, are ways of describing a belief system and lifestyle. Some call it religion. It is diverse and often eclectic. Some practice alone, some in groups. Some worship gods and goddesses, others don't. Some revere nature as sacred; some are just as happy never to be outdoors among dirt and yucky bugs. Some do spells and magic and ritual; others don't. What seems important to remember is that it is a fast-growing movement; that few people who become witches or pagans move on to other spiritual paths; that interest in paganisms and earth-based spirituality are the result of a shift in paradigm (male to female, some say) that honors nature and cooperation and peace over industry and plunder and annihilation. Contemporary paganism has gone from being a fringe diversion to a legally-recognized religion that is increasingly studied in academic contexts for its sociological, spiritual and other implications. Blessed be. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Nemesis Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:05 PM Hi Dipsodeb .. it's in Worthing .. thanks for the info on the name .. they've sent me all the biog blurb and not mentioned how they got the name!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Dipsodeb Date: 02 Aug 03 - 06:00 AM whereabouts in Sussex?, excellent band. Nothing to do with witches though apart from the name, they got it from a Kate bush song.... |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Ebbie Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:54 PM When I see the pictures, I think a harpy is scarier than a witch. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Amergin Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:46 PM there is no black and white, HG....there is nor good or evil.... |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Nemesis Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:01 PM Anyone in Sussex area on first Friday of September "Walking the Witch" are playing, with Joe Bazouki of the Missing Puddings fame ... |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: GUEST Date: 01 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM Although I don't consider myself pagan or Wiccan or Klingon, I do know that many pagans and non-pagans alike appreciate the writings of Starhawk, who has made quite a serious attempt at legitimizing her profession. I can't quite remember which profession she professes to be practicing--wiccan priestess, goddess priestess or something along those lines I think. Someone here will undoubtedly know what profession she claims and works to educate people about. She is also a fairly well known California political activist, although I have no idea how other political activists view her in terms of competency and effectiveness as an activist. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: GUEST,Bryn Date: 01 Aug 03 - 04:46 AM More observations. Harpgirl, rare is the pagan who views what they do as 'bad' - and its hard to define. Is bad selfish? Peiple re selfish. Most pagans I know tend to try and act for the good of all where tey can and few managed it cos we're just as flawed as anyone else. That said, do know of some pagans who will happily admit to walking the darker paths. The thing is this - pagans don't see the dark half of the wheel - death, decay, destruction etc as inehrrently evil - they are necessary to life, we honour them and when needs be, we invoke them. Part of the problem with the questions you are asking is that they use terms that make no sense in the context. Pagans don't tend to describe themselves as good or bad (only the daft ones). If the question is 'are there pagans who use magic purely to be evil?' I think the answer is no, you don't get disney style villans, you do get self interested individuals whose motives might not be as pure as the driven snow, but that's people for you. I can tell you now that your chances of getting any Pagan to post specifically about their beleifs and practises are small, I know I have no intention of telling you what I do in that vein, and I would be very surprised if anyone else Pagan on this list would be inclined to go into detail - it's not ebcause we're necessarily doing anything you might find disturbing, it is mroe that these are private and intimate thnigs, not to be shared casually. As for why we don't talk about the silly side of wicca - it goes like this. All the people who are serious about what they do, who study arcane knowledge and work hard at their rituals etc find that sort of thing deeply embarassing. All the people who like running round in public in robes, pretending to be Klingons, cursing Harry potter, wearing robes that look like dressing gowns and nighties, giving themselve insane titles etc have never considered the possibility that they might in fact be rather silly, so they don't tend to talk about it either. But if we want to name and shame, can I sugegst visiting the website of Kevin Carlyon, the living incarnation of 'the silly side of Wicca' - a websearch for his anme will provide. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: harpgirl Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:33 PM This is for Gereg, who might be new to our community. Clinton is as Clinton is. We know him and like him for his irreverance and generally poking fun at anything we take seriously. We are all pretty predictable. I am known for stirring up trouble! I like dialectics! I'm also known for disliking organized religion. I do attend Episcopal church, however. I give my money to the single mother fund at St. Marks in PBG. I suppose if the Wiccans convinced me they needed money for a good cause, I might give them some! We do have a lot of self-proclaimed witches, just none that admit to being bad or doing black magic! I liked your remarks, by the way. Of course, the real secret here is that I got rambunctious just to provide Rick Fielding with an amusing distraction since he didn't want any polaroids! hahahah Love, harpgirl |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: harpgirl Date: 31 Jul 03 - 12:23 PM No Amos. I meant walking on top of a beaver dam. It's a bit tricky and is muddy and slippery! We drain the pond during the day so it doesn't flood any more trees and Bucky comes at night and patches it up. Bucky is winning. But when the aligator gets bigger Bucky will probably disappear. But your idea is a clever one, as usual! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM Harpgirl: I assume "walking the beaver dam" is some sort of slang for a personal commitment to abstinence? A |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jul 03 - 10:29 AM BRAVO, Micca!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Micca Date: 31 Jul 03 - 08:59 AM Well, art, Harry Potter and Buffy "While we hope that we don't appear to be stuffy" Are fiction and Thus Are not worth a Cuss making Wicca for Bunnys that're Fluffy And Wicca is NOT Fluffy Bunny Nor to be exploited for money Some ones of the Craft Like to appear daft Its just their strange way of being "Funny" Their approach to their spirituality Is guided by a stricter morality The Rede and the Rules Guides both wise and fools And effects of result and causality Outside views they don't mean a lot Considerably less than a Jot If asked to arrange A light bulb to change Your witch will reply " Into What???" |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Pied Piper Date: 31 Jul 03 - 05:59 AM The loin the Wicca and the Weird robe? PP |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: artbrooks Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM Beware of Micca and Amos, Their knowledge of witches is in-famous. But perhaps they had oughter, Read more Harry Potter, Then their erudition will shame us! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Bert Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:24 PM That is a good link Micca, They seem to be nice people don't they. LadyJean you say... 'so many of them are such amazing flakes.' That makes them sound like Mudcatters to me. And Hesperis, you're right, laughter is a powerful healer. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: hesperis Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:04 PM lol, cat, I was about to say something similar to Amos! LadyJean - yeah, the best part of ritual is the stuff that goes wrong... I hit my wand on the ceiling more than once in my teensy basement apartment! Once I was doing a healing ritual with a friend, and we BOTH hit our wands on the ceiling at the same time. We both burst out laughing... Then there was the one time I knocked a candle over as I was trying to extinguish it, and it extinguished itself on the way down, merely leaving a tiny blob of wax on the carpet. (Funny thing was, those spells worked better than anything that went off perfectly. All that laughing probably made it work better!) |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: GUEST,Gereg Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:28 PM It seems as though this ought to have been posted here rather than on the "music" discussion. ...So okay, I've read quite a few of the messages now, and I have to say - both to those who term themselves witches and to those who insist that nobody today is a witch - the following: the use of the term 'witch' by modern Goddess-worshippers doesn't, in all probability, bear much resemblance to its use historically. We simply don't have reliable records to support or refute the idea definitely (although the records we do have tend to refute more than support the current usage by modern pagans). But it's a fairly harmless instance of reclaiming an ugly old term, just as hippies took to calling themselves 'freaks' in the late '60s. To those who want to insist that modern pagans aren't real witches, I'd like to point out that Yeshua (usually called 'Jesus') would likely have a bit of trouble recognising the religious practises of most of the people today calling themselves Christians. Like most swords, that business can cut both ways. Just for example, Yeshua is said to have enjoined his followers not to judge others... and it seems to me I've noticed a fair bit of judgemental language in this thread. On both sides of the pentagram, I might add. And to add a bit of my own judgement to the mix, it particularly seems to me that this Clinton Hammond fellow ought to submit his own religious beliefs for the mockery to which he has subjected the beliefs of others. A disagreement with another's beliefs, or even with their terminology, does not justify this kind of abuse. What kind of fantasies do your beliefs consist of, Clinton? |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: LadyJean Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:05 AM Some of my best friends are witches. They are very nice, very sensible people. My problem with Wicca is that so many of them are such amazing flakes. If someone is planning on going to a Wiccan gathering, I always warn them to be careful of bad checks and late night phone calls. My sister, who is Wiccan attended a gathering lead by a male with a stomach "large enough to be introduced by name". He was wearing a small length of plaid fabric. She had a hard time keeping a straight face. No one ever talks about the silly side of Wicca. I rather wish they would. |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Catherine Jayne Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:45 PM Amos my dear.....could this Witch kiss the frog!!! LOL!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Witches! Good and Bad? From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 03 - 03:47 PM 'ere, 'ere -- d'ye take me for some sort of Frog?? (No, no -- really--try it!! I really AM a prince!! You'll see....)...LOL!! A |