BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance

Subject: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:44 AM

Today, August 5th is the 41st anniversary of the death of Marilyn Monroe. I recall being in a taxi in the middle of London on the way to a new job when the driver told me. Like many famous deaths there are many conspiracy theories as to the cause. For me I think the film world lost one of its greats and in her short life had some marvellous roles. RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:08 AM

My God, she was beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:47 AM

She slayed me, just slayed me. I dunno what "it" is but she had it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:56 AM

And, I don't think she was beautiful. Sorry, but I just can't stand her.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:01 AM

Sorcha:

Awww, that's all right -- mebbe its just a guy thing or some'p'n, huh?
I doubt any of us could have stood her in reality, day aftyer day and up close. But she was great at being a luster-bunny, a bright screenstar and a pinup gal. Sure there are better things to be, and I guess those roles are pretty sexist, but whatever, she did them well!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:07 AM

I saw the beginning of a programme with Ruby Wax chatting at Joan Collins last night on TV, as usual she went OTT, and I turned it off after about 15 mins. However Joan Collins quoted Marylin as saying, after she got her first contract with Fox, "That's the last cock I'm going to have to suck". Sad innit!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:58 AM

I have to agree with Sorcha. BTW, I'm a guy. She wasn't that beautiful and she couldn't really act. The hype machine just did a good job, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 11:59 AM

She was not a great actress, but, she was beautiful. Mayber I'm strange but I also think Jane Fonda is beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:04 PM

Well, de gustibus non disputandem and all that. Kendall and I will stand over here in the marilyn-was-beautiful corner and enjoy that memory, and you guys can stand over in that marilyn-was-ersatz corner and enjoy that memory. Woddever floats yer boat as they say in the Wiscasset tidal basins! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:06 PM

Au contraire, I think she was an excellent actress -- The Misfits and Some Like It Hot are good examples of her range. She was pretty good in Bus Stop too. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:27 PM

To me, her physical beauty has always been an example of something that I've noticed for a long time. It seems like the more attractive one is, of either gender, the less they develope their personalities. In my single days, I've dated some absolutly stunning women, and with ONE exception, I found them to be either so self absorbed as to be very boring, or else on such power trips that they are scary to be around. Of course, that's a horrible generalization. Now that I'm married to Bride Judy, I now find that I am saddled with two women from her family, that also fit the above catagory. And they drive me nuts. In fact, one is coming for the weekend and I may have to go down and visit my brother ... and he's awful to be around!

I happened to be visitng in San Francisco the weekend that Marilyn died. We were in a large restaurant when we heard the news. The effect was stunning. People started crying, leaving their meals untouched. Within a half hour, the restaurant was empty. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:31 PM

Thank you PT....We definitely agree here. Watching "The Misfits" is almost hard to do....the last performance of both MM and Gable.

Yes, she certainly used what Hollywood provided in terms of "star power" but there was a lot more to her. Some of the dailies from the movie she was doing when she died are excellent. Karen loves her too and many of our favorite movies also include her.....Niagra, Some Like It Hot, The Seven Year Itch, The Misfits, Bus Stop......A lot more than a sex symbol.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:59 PM

I do need to add something to my previous posting: I certainly do agree that she was a very fine actor. I didn't mean to denigrate her. It's just that she was such a "sex symbol" that she became to classic example for the world to emulate. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:22 PM

I think a few of you gents may be overstating the woman's acting abilities. Competent, yes. Great, no.

Something people often forget about celebrities. If the camera loves them, so do we. The camera loved Marilyn. Her voice was absolutely intolerable to me--like nails on a blackboard. And her look was pure bimbo. But hey--her look still sells. Just ask Madonna, and whomever the latest Hollywood actress was who played her in the latest TV movie.

She wasn't exactly an intellectual giant either.

As to her "greatest hits" films being cited--all I can say is Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis were the talented ones, not The Marilyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:29 PM

And Jack and Tony thought she was very talented.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:35 PM

Well she sure had something -- I remind myself of that scene where she is trying to resurrect a soul-deadened Jack by kissing him over and over experimentally, on the yacht in Some Like It Hot, and to this day it burns in my memory, but I couldn't say exactly why. I gotta mark it up to The M's "stuff" -- I don't think the silver screen does pheremones~! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:56 PM

Continuing in the contrarian mode, she was in fact very intelligent. Arthur Miller (who married her, and never seems to have gotten over it) and Lee Strasberg and others who were pretty fierce, and in a position to judge, often said that while she was undereducated, she had a great thirst for learning, and was not a bimbo.
While it is true that she had to deal with her persona, and didn't have the kind of career that a theatre actress would have, the way she dealt with her "being" (if I can put it that way)was quite extraordinary. The intimate scenes in Some Like It Hot are stunning; and (to echo c.p) her work in The Misfits -- playing with her aging and vulnerability -- is heartbreaking. Everybody acknowledges that she was a complete mess as a human being, but still -- whatever it takes to be a really good film actress, she had it.

A completely different dynamic, but with a similar struggle to deal with her beauty, is in Kim Novak. Vertigo plays off of her star quality, but she is unbelievably good, especially as the picture continues. Some of her earlier work is also fine (Pal Joey, an execrable film, shines whenever she appears). Someone else of the period who had the aptness to be a good actress, if she had only persisted, was Grace Kelly, maybe the most beautiful film star ever.
Compare either of these two with other manufactured beauties like Hedy Lamarr or Jayne Mansfield or Bo Derek. I think it is very hard for women stars to do something interesting with their beauty and fame -- the one who seems to have been the most "unconscious" beauty ever seems to have been Ingrid Bergman, who never seems to show off the obvious fact that she is a goddess.

Julia Roberts is an interesting contemporary case of this tension. She is an interesting actress, she can do things with her persona that surprise you; though (in spite of her Oscar), one's first reaction to her is as "STAR" not actress. In a film like Notting Hill, which everyone dismisses as a piece of fluff -- in which she actually plays a "STAR" she is understated, and brilliant, easily her best performance. Well, second best performance -- the walk through the hotel lobby in Pretty Woman after her transformation is in a league of its own.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 02:22 PM

Julia Roberts can also eat asparagus sideways.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:27 PM

Cherie Blair can eat whole sticks of rhubarb sideways. [3 or 4 at a time].....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 07:58 PM

Oh come on PeterT--who wouldn't expect Arthur Miller to have claimed Marilyn was smarter than she looked? At the time of their relationship, the book and theatre world mocked those sorts of aging male (fill in the blank with profession here) marries Hollywood starlet sorts of "meaningful" relationships.

The woman was only 36 years old when she died, and you are claiming her 'Misfits' role was a brilliant performance about the her "aging" was heartbreaking??? Oh please. Maudlin, yes, heartbreaking--well, we'll just have to agree to vociferously disagree.

But this whole myth that Monroe's vulvability--oh excuse me--vulnerability. Just how is a self-made Hollywood screen star, who found her way into the circles of power, including sleeping her way into the White House, supposed to be so damn vulnerable? She had all the power a woman who is willing to sleep and manipulate their way to the top could have. That doesn't sound like a defenseless waif to me.

I loved 'Some Like It Hot' but not for her role in it. But the roles of Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon are classic. A number of Hollywood actresses of the era could have played that part every bit as well, and a few them, quite a bit better, than Monroe's campy character...IMNSHO, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:04 PM

Her voice was not her best feature. Personally, I think that actress, who raised hell about people who cook lobsters, cant think of her name, the Dick VanDyke show... her voice would shatter Tupperware.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:40 PM

Guest,07:58PM (how strange is that -- to have only a timestamp to your name?)

Your opinion is of course your own privelege, but why not try to improve your manners? Do you really think there is some benefit in being more disagreeable than necessary? I'm curious to know what it is....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:10 PM

I believe Peter T is misremembering. I recall a TV interview with Strassburg in which he said that she was anxious to be thought educated; that she often carried around books on philosophy that she couldn't understand. He implied her intellect was normal and that that wasn't good enough for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:52 PM

hmm...I must be a Misfit myself! I was in my eary 20s when MM died, and even after 7-8 years of being prime MM audience, I just never took to that persona she projected. That bit of singing 'Happy Birthday' to JFK embarasses me to this day.

She may indeed have had more talent/intelligence than was immediately apparent, but that breathy vamping didn't move me! (I was temporarily in love lust with Brigette Bardot, but by & large 'movie starlets' were not my cuppa tea.)

as Amos says, "de gustibus"

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Den
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:37 PM

I'm not going to enter into the acting debate. The thread title refers to remembering her and I suppose everyone who has posted thus far remembers her in different ways. Andrea and I were watching TV just the other night, one of those occasions where we have a nice cup of tea together when the boys are tucked in bed, when we caught a piece of a Marilyn Biography. I happened to mention to Andrea that I thought Marilyn had a timeless beauty and she agreed. So I suppose for what its worth that's how I think of her. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 04:51 AM

She had an insecure family background, as she didn't know who her Father was, and her Mother was unstable. She married young, and it was doomed to fail. Altogether she made the best of a bad job, learned to capitalize her assets, [not always appropriately] and entertained us to the best of her ability. I for one will always remember her with sadness and affection. Some like it Hot, will always be one of my favourite movies.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 08:44 AM

Hard to say what it is about her that is so different than "starlets". Perhaps, as a friend of mine once remarked, she was born with a skin too few.

It is possible I am misremembering about Lee Strasberg. I think it was Susan Strasberg who said that Lee Strasberg had originally said sarcastically that she went around reading philosophical tomes, but that he changed his mind later when she came to his classes. I am not misremembering about Arthur Miller: I assume that he was astute enough to know his own mind.

The fact she was 36 and worried about aging seems to me to be not exactly a surprising phenomenon for a film star, nor -- I should add -- for women around me in this youth-intoxicated era. I can think of at least two 36-37 year old women of my acquaintance who are deeply troubled by losing the first bloom of their youth, and coming to the end of their childbearing years.

There is in the Buddhist tradition a realm of the Gods. They live for millions of years in youth and perfection, happy. Then, one day, the first gray hair appears, and they are completely shattered, because they have no experience of aging. They go straight down into hell, bypassing all the way stations. An apt metaphor for Hollywood, and the vulnerability of the beautiful. It may be absurd and self-absorbed in a world of Liberias, but it works on the silver screen.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peg
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:54 AM

I played Marilyn Monroe in a rather eclectic version of The Merchant of Venice. Had to to study her films to emulate her singing and movement etc. I became very interested in her as a person and read a fair amount of biographical information.

I agree with Peter that she was in fact far more intelligent than most give her credit for. The people putting her down as shallow in this thread might want to actually look into it a bit further. She did what was expected of her to get where she was; Jayne Mansfield did the same: projected a bimbo demeanor to become a star (Jayne even changed   her hair color from naturally blonde to brunette so she wouldn't be compared to Marilyn). It was Hollywood. And clearly it worked for them.

I don't see her persona as all that different from many actresses seen as sex symbols today, bearing in mind that American culture expects women to behave very differently today than they did in the 1950s. One cannot judge Miss Monroe on today's standards of feminism.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:06 AM

I played Marilyn Monroe in a rather eclectic version of The Merchant of Venice

Peg:

Eclecticness is the least of its problems -- anachronism of this sort is a serious offense against universal laws! This sort of Wellsery must be nipped in the bud before someone gets hurt!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:33 AM

Who did you play, Jessica. Portia or a female Shylock? ("The quality of mercy is not strained, poop poop adoop!")

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 03:06 PM

So if Marilyn Monroe was far more intelligent than most people give her credit for being, just how intelligent was she? I mean, how much intelligence did it take, in that era, to sleep your way stardom? To the White House? I would rather think the latter required good connections, rather than intelligence.

And as for Arthur Miller, I'm sure he loved Marilyn for her intelligence. Certainly, her looks and boudoir behavior wouldn't have had anything to do with the attraction!

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 03:23 PM

Guest:

You're being a bit asinine. Both charming looks and boudoir behaviour require a lot of intelligence to do well. And making your way in life does as well, and she certainly did that, up to a point.

I wish I could have talked to her!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 03:40 PM

never been much into Monroe...give me Ingrid Bergman any day....She shined...

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:31 PM

Remember her debut in "All About Eve"? The ditzy blonde who heaved her lunch up mid her audition.

She was beautiful. Maybe not a role model but she was stunningly beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: bflat
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:43 PM

She was an intriguing beauty. She was an entertainer who caused you to stop and look closely as you may have tried to understand the person within the character. I'm sad that she did not have a long and happy life that I believe we all would want. I liked her and her art.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peg
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:26 PM

re: The Merchant of   Venise. My role was to perform the three bits of poetry contained in the caskets. In fact I popped out of two of the caskets. The costume change between gold and silver was absolutely brutal. The caskets had trap-door bottoms. I lay on a platform mounted on a wheeled cart and had to be basically slid (?) in and out like a cake on a cooling rack (or some such image whatever works for you).

For the gold casket the song composed was a hard rock thing; I wore a custom-made black leather mini dress covered in gold jewelry, credit cards, chains, with a black wig, combat boots, etc. (this costume made the back cover of the alumni magazine in fact). Then, once that number was done and I disappeared back into the casket, I was rolled out and helped down into the basement/under stage space for my 67 second costume change! Into a silver evening gown complete with tiara and silk banner; it was a Statue of Liberty/Miss America sorta get up, with high heeled rhinestone sandals and of course the peroxide blonde wig. Even with two assistants helping it was difficult to get it done in time. There was no boop-boop ee-doop in the song but I did sing it in a breathy Marilyn kinda way.

For the third casket I had more time, and appeared from the wings, in a Portia mask and veil, dressed like Portia in black, while Portia herself was in the casket.

Virtually   none of the students assigned to write a review of this production for a theatre course at the time figured out it was the same person for all three personae.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: GUEST,TL
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:30 PM

So Amos, anyone who expresses an opinion that differs from yours (or your way of expressing yourself), is being rude and asinine?

Ridiculous.

Perhaps you are the one in need an attitude adjustment?

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:51 PM

The quality of mercy is strained! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 07:03 PM

Well said, Peter. You too Amos. Now comes the tirade about the inner clique.
As for marilyn - may she be resting peacefully and serenely.

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 07:14 PM

Would one of said clique's members step forth and engage? Oh, never mind....

Guest, you are placing words in my mouth., I simply said that "sleeping your way to the top" in the way you attribute to Monroe does take intelligence. It is clear she was not a bimbo or an airhead.   In any case, since you have no persona here, I was addressing my remarks purely to your posts, not to you. If my earlier remarks about manners was also inadvertantly addressed to you, then, I guess, you were being both rude and asinine, but for all I knew it might have been two separate people. That's the price you pay for being a mystery-monger and a dealer in generalizations.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Marilyn Monroe - In Fond Remembrance
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 08:15 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but intelligence is not.