High Lonesome Bluegrass?

Subject: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Peg
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:15 AM

what sort of songs   might fall under this category?

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:02 AM

The kind where the tenor is high and nasal, usually includes a mandolin and/or fiddle. It's the kind of bluegrass song that sounds a bit like a train whistle around the next mountain or something. Usually three chords, maybe four.

A lot of white spiritual stuff comes under this category, but lay stuff does as well. Circle Be Unbroken could qualify, What Is a Home, any of those sweeping high thin tenor songs.

A

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:05 AM

Here's my favorite quote about the bluegrass sound when it's done right - from a New Yorker Magazine article on Ralph Stanley, when the "Oh Brother" thing was at its height...

Perhaps the most dramatic moment in all the Stanley Brothers' hundreds of recordings occurs in the chorus of "Rank Strangers." After Carter sings the verse, Ralph enters with the words "Everybody I met / Seemed to be a rank stranger" in a voice that stabs like an ice pick. He raised the tension in the Stanley Brothers' music to the nearly unbearable: singing above Carter's melody, he would hang on a dissonant note in anticipation of the chord that was about to arrive. Over time, these harmonies became wilder, more edgy and attention getting—a separate drama that didn't cozy up to the melody but defied it before an ultimate reconciliation.

Peter.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:11 AM

"high, lonesome" was always associated with the name of Ralph Stanley.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 11:29 AM

Wasn't that phrase originally "high, loathsome"?

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 11:59 AM

Actually I associate it with Bill Munroe. Here's a quote from Green Man Review on Munro:

"I get the impression that Bill Monroe, the father of bluegrass, resisted attempts of the press and fans to graft an iconic public figure onto his life. He rarely gave interviews, and seemed to enjoy having a very private life for a musical legend. His "high lonesome" sound became something that others could hold on to, from the put-on shit-kicker outfits of the 1950s, to the New Grass revival, to the occasional foray made by "new country" into something with a little soul. The Bill Monroe Reader brings almost everything written about Monroe over his life into one place, and allows the reader to form their impressions of Monroe from contemporary sources. "


A

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 12:01 PM

No, loathsome is Dylan singing.

I always associated the high lonesome sound more with Bill Monroe.

It is like a train whistle in the dead of night, almost spooky sounding.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 12:04 PM

High Lonesome Sound (Vince Gill)

When ever my soul is lonely
When ever I'm feeling blue
I start thinkin' 'bout my blue-eyed darlin'
My heart starts pinin' for you

I wanna hear that high lonesome sound
'Cause my sweet baby ain't around
When my life's got me down
I wanna hear that high lonesome sound

When I'm lost in this ocean of darkness
Not knowing which way I should turn
And my eyes are filled with the sadness
Of knowing you'll never return

I wanna hear that high lonesome sound
'Cause my sweet baby ain't around
When my life's got me down
I wanna hear that high lonesome sound



A

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Steve-o
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 12:25 PM

Yow- a discussion of whether Stanley Bros. or Monroe and the Bluegrass boys are the ones to associate with "high lonesome" style Bluegrass music. BOTH is the answer. Instead of arguing minutia, go out and sing some of it!

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM

Both is of course the correct answer. To get the high lonesome sound you not only need to have a strong high tenor singing a fifth above a high baratone lead but you also need the sort of bluesy dissonance Peter talks about. Listen to Monroe's recording of tunes like Walk Softly On This Heart Of Mine and Walls Of Time or the Stanley Brothers recording of White Dove.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 01:02 PM

Sure -- I didn't mean to be argumentative (this time, any way! :>)).

You got it, Mark, et al!


A

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Francy
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 01:08 PM

Listen to some of the old Roscoe Holcomb recordings and also Clarence Ashley,,as well as Hazel Dickens...These three, in my opinion, were much less commercial than Ralph or Bill, but equally representative of that "high lonesome" sound.....Frank of Toledo

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 02:36 PM

Great reply Steve-o. I love both Monroe and The Stanleys. It doesn't get much prettier than that.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: zanderfish3 (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 02:44 PM

In an interview Ralph Stanley said ' lots of people sing high, but thay don't all put that bell in it ', I think that defines it for me. Both Bill Monroe and Ralph Stanley sing that high tenor with the ' bell '

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Burke
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 04:39 PM

At workshops Ginny Hawker teaches what she calls a "Lonesome Mountain" sound. She does the pre-bluegrass songs in the style that so influenced bluegrass but does not have to be high or a harmony to sound lonesome.

I addition to Ginny, Hazel Dickens is a good example of this sound.

BTW, I thought the bluegrass tenor was a third above the lead with baritone below the lead.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:05 PM

Frank of Toledo wrote:

Listen to some of the old Roscoe Holcomb recordings and also Clarence Ashley,,as well as Hazel Dickens...These three, in my opinion, were much less commercial than Ralph or Bill, but equally representative of that "high lonesome" sound.....Frank of Toledo

Ralph Stanley and Bill Monroe commercial? Why? Did they wear stripe shirts or something?

who cares? These two were the masters.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:24 PM

Well, the tenor part moves according to the needs of harmony but that cutting “bell” tone is produced when the tenor is a fifth above the lead. It's like the fiddle playing the open E string against the melody note on the open A string. If you listen closely to bluegrass duets, you'll find the vocal harmony is often patterned after the bluesy sliding doubble stops played on the fiddle.

And of course the baritone part is sung below the lead, I only meant that the lead singer is usually a high baritone voice so the tenor often has to use a falsetto to get up to the required range.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:43 PM

As I recall, "High Lonesome Sound" was a phrase coined by John Cohen.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:52 PM

That's the way I remember it as well, Dick. I got to see John's film called That High Lonesome Sound one year at the University of Chicago Folk Festival.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: rangeroger
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:57 PM

I always loved John Duffy (Seldom Scene) who would take his baritone above the tenor.Shocked the hell out of some sound techs.

rr

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 07:16 PM

Duffey.

Not to be picky for its own sake, but some things are sacred.

P.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Francy
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:33 PM

Martin Gibson ;;;;;I was not using the word commercial to take away from their great talents...Just that Roscoe and Clarence and Hazel are not as well know as Bill and Ralph.....Just wanted to give credit where it was due.....Read what i said and not between the lines.....sorry I was misunderstood...Frank of Toledo

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 12:17 PM

Peter Rowan gots some too.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Peg
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 07:48 PM

Great info and a nifty   discussion,   guys...

Now...

I have been asked   if I know   any of   these high   lonesome   bluegrass songs to   sing at a "blues, baseball and BBQ" shindig this weekend...any thoughts which songs might suit   women? (A couple of ya have heard me   sing, any suggestions   welcome).

They   also asked if I know   any Janis Joplin...

thanks,
peg

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 08:16 PM

Peg,

Janis was both High and Lonesome.

Tough to pick some Bluegrass songs for a female to sing, often they are sung by men about women who usually meet an untimely demise.

How about Molly & Tenbrooks?

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 08:25 PM

Alison Krauss does some good stuff. Or Kate MacKenzie. Or Jeanette Williams. Or a new one, Honi Deaton.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 10:52 PM

Peg:

See file sent separately.


A

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 11:16 PM

In The Pines would be a good one.

Subject: RE: High Lonesome Bluegrass?
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 11:38 PM

Dick: That has to be right. The "high lonesome sound" was Roscoe Holcomb, if I recall rightly. The disk with "Little Bessie." It don't come more "lonesome" than that!

I'm not sure I'd agree that Ginny and Tracy, or even Hazel, have a "pre-bluegrass" sound. They sound a lot more modern to me than either Monroe or the Stanleys. And although I'm a big fan of all those persons, those wild intervals get overworked after a while. I can't think of any traditional group that used them.

Can anyone identify what the characteristic dissonances in contemporary bluegrass are? I tried asking Ginny and Tracy about it in one of their workshops, and they couldn't say. They said the idea came from Ralph Stanley, but I can't really recall his using disonnances to anything like the same extent.