BS: Child crime.

Subject: BS: Child crime.
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 06:41 PM

Iv been reading a lot lately about the increase in crime among the 10 to 15 age group. These children apparently think it funny to drop bricks on cars from M\way flyovers, attempt to derail trains and engage in burglary and mugging.I was interested to see the practice of brick dropping referred to as "anti social behaviour". Community deterrents, as I knew in my youth are no longer legal and these children know all their "rights" ,what are we to do with the monsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 06:56 PM

Kids will always push to see where the limits are. Trouble is that now there seems to be nothing to stop them pushing until the police get involved. In my young days we were too busy rebelling against silly school uniforms and the like to get into serious trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 08:51 PM

Hi akenaton
As a few people here know, I'm a hot food delivery driver for an indian take away in Hull, there has been times, especially on council estates [nothing against council estates, I have lived on one myself], where I have had bricks thrown at my car, by kids as young as 5! obviously as they are only 5 years old, there is nothing I can do about this, even if they were 10 or 12 years old, if I got out of the car and thumped them, I would probably be sent to jail.
These kids just seem to think its a laugh, they don't realise that the car we use cost the company I work for over a thousand pounds, and if a brick went through the windscreen I could be blinded or seriously injured.
Also, if we do more than one delivery at once, there is often gangs of kids hanging around the car, trying to steal the food that is left in the car, so I have to lock the car up, even if I am parked right outside the customers house!
I think the main problem is, nowadays many parents don't give a shit about there kids, and are not bothered what they do.
Obviously not all of them, there are some good parents about, and we only really notice the bad ones.

I consider myself lucky, in that when I was growing up, my parents were interested in what I was doing, they took me to museums, libaries, on family visits etc.Many parents nowadays just sem to kick there kids out, and spend there time either in the pub or watching tv.

Crime seems to be growing all the time, I'm not really sure what the answer is, perhaps stopping stupid people from having kids would be an idea???

A few years ago I adopted a cat from a rescue centre, I had to have an interview,, to see if I was capable of looking after a pet, a home visit, to check if my home was a suitable envioroment to raise a pet etc, and was questioned, [where will cat sleep, eat etc?}, but any idiot can have kids, and do virtually what they like afterwards.

A friend of mine [Tall Norman], is a social worker, he does reposessions for Doncaster Child Protection Team, he told me that some of the cases he deals with are horryfying, ie cases of kids laying in their own shit for days on end, while their parents are getting drunk or high on drugs!

i think i spelled horryfing wrong, but you know waht i mean.john

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 09:06 PM

John ..whereas i only read about these problems ,you seem to see them from the sharp end,and I very much agree with what you say regarding the require ments to keep a pet,while some folk ignore their children (or worse).I was hoping for more replies to this thread ,as i was interested in other peoples ideas on what to do ...Its a much more complex subject than it seems...Always a pleasure to read your posts.
   Alex..

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 09:17 PM

Billy the Kid learned his craft in a street gang in New York. Ten year old killers were no rarity. Do a search on the 'swamp angels', the 'dead rabbits', or the 'plug uglies'. It's nothing new and no one has ever found a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 10:18 PM

It looks as if my references were a little too exotic for google. The swamp angels, dead rabbits, and plug uglies were young gangs in New York in the late 1800's; mean, tough, and often deadly.ere's a link to a song about a battle that actually ocurred.

here it is

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 10:30 PM

hi akenaton ,
there will be more replies to this thread, it's just that it's late here, theres loads of mudcat social werkers, [mgGrath of Harlow, Morticia, Bassic, Llanfair etc, ], if possible, i will get Tall Norman to post here, he has internet acsess, but does notb know about mudcat. I think MgGrath of Harlow and Bassic are both retired social workers, but i'm sure they will post here if posible.
anywayt, i;m sure theres plenty of others , just cant think of them right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: LilyFestre
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 10:31 PM

It all comes down to a lack of supervision and discipline. Parents in the US are afraid to discipline their children for fear of having the children taken away or the parents having charges brought up against them. And as for supervision, many are just being lazy parents but even more are simply at work trying to make ends meet. It used to be that one parent would stay at home and tend to the needs of the family while the other went out in the work force...........

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 10:33 PM

Shucks, I got all sorts of info, including related areas, by searching metacrawler (www.metacrawler.com). Google's a good search engine, but it's not the only one -- it's also not a metasearch engine (searches search engines).

I'm currently reading Tyler Anbinder's "Five Points." He makes the point that while conditions weren't exactly rosy, they were in many cases (but not all, not by a long shot!) better than what was reported at the time. Racism and anti-foreign sentiment played a big role in coloring what was reported about the area.

Child crime and child killers have long been with us, and not just in the US. It's a symptom of larger problems in society, and these have been discussed over and over so I shan't repeat them. But I don't think that the problem will be solved until someone addresses the WHOLE problem, instead of concentrating on one part alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 11:06 PM

I do think it is getting worse because of all the parent issues involved. We were lucky in that I could stay home and our son still ended up in jail. He's out now, and very very lucky it wasn't worse. Don't know what the answer is...........more welfare is NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:48 AM

It appears to be mostly a UK phenomenum, no sense of worth, no future.... just endless dull grey.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mg
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:28 AM

didn't some of y ou chime in ont he Christian loony thread? Religion does serve at least one very social purpose of keeping kids (and parents) somewhat out of trouble, not always but more often than otherwise I believe. If there is no fear of consequence, either now or the hereafter, people will often, given the opportunity, combined with social conditions of poverty, access to drugs, despair etc., run amuck. With the same social circumstances, and a strong religious tradition, which hopefully has positive as well as punitive aspects, they just might adhere to the straight and narrow. Poverty does not have to lead to violence, crime etc. but there has to be a counterbalancing force. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 03:15 AM

In the original post Akenaton mentions "community deterrents" and their lack of, and I think that's the nub of the problem.
I was brought up on a tough housing estate in North-East England and did my share of misbehaving but what kept us (most of us) from crossing the line between childish pranks and criminal behaviour was the fear of being spotted by an adult. In my younger days it was OK for any adult to chastise any child caught misbehaving, and the beat-bobby (community policeman) knew who lived where and the names of their parents. More often than not he would give you a clip around the ear and threaten to tell your parents if it happened again, earning respect among the kids on the estate which was taken into adulthood.
There is no sense of community today on these housing estates, no self-policing and little sign of policemen unless they're about to arrest someone, whereupon the streets are teeming with officers and police cars.
I'm not saying I want my neighbour to feel entitled to smack my daughter if she is misbehaving but he or she should feel able to ask her to stop what she is doing and report the matter to me.
Through my work, I still have daily contact with some of the people on the poorest estates and have to endure the behaviour of the kids on the street but wouldn't dream of going to a parents door to complain (unless I knew them personally) as this would almost certainly result in a torrent of abuse from the parents and the risk of personal injury.
Without societies structures, family, community, religion, etc. community life breaks down into a free-for-all and shows us at our very worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 05:33 AM

& yet the very same sorts of parents who let their kids run amok on the streets,even 5 year olds,are the most likely to display their 'crocodile tears' when their chils is ron over or abducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Bassic
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 05:59 AM

By their nature, children are explorers, that is how they learn, about themselves, others and life in general. To expect them to do otherwise is to deny the very nature of children; it is what they are SUPOSED to do and is how they grow up. The role of adults is to create a society in which this process has some controls, boundaries and limits in order to give those children the opportunity to reach maturity without destroying themselves or society in the process.

The more complex/chaotic the society is, the harder that is to achieve. In a complex/chaotic society where adults struggle to cope, it is inevitable that children will also have chaotic life experiences and indulge in "chaotic" behavior. For a parent/parents to create a safe but enriching life experience in those circumstances calls for exceptional skills and talents. The reality is that most parents can't do it, that is why, for example, they move house to the "quieter" suburbs with better schools, more space, less pressures, if they have the resources.

That leaves the least able members of society bringing up children in the most complex and chaotic conditions. It is into these circumstances that interventions from the law, government (ie social work, economic measures, education) and religion (social support, control, hope!) attempt to address the balance. From experience we know that, despite best intentions, these interventions are just as likely to make the problem worse as they are to help.

Society as a whole is under tremendous pressure, especially with the reality of the global economy. The truth is, I believe, that we just don't have the human resources to cope in such a complex and dangerous world and still have the freedoms that we cherish. Controlled societies (Japan, Communist states) create order and structure, which helps the mass of their citizens, organise their lives with fewer complex choices but they also have their downsides too. (Totalitarian power for the few which inevitably becomes corrupting, or horrendous pressure to conform and think only in one way, for example.)

I know there are exceptions to the above points but that is my point, they ARE exceptions, it is finding a way for the mass of humanity, not the exceptional people, to survive in today's world. Maybe someone knows how to make it work, can see a light at the end of the tunnel, I can't, but then I am just one of that mass of people struggling to survive in an increasingly complex world and finding it almost impossible.

Shut up Johnny, turn that bloody music down!! Here's a tenner, go and play outside, I am knackered………………………………….

PS, anyone know of a nice island somewhere where I can live for less than £700 a month with good folk music, a free health service, plenty of room, and no crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 06:50 AM

C-Flat, I grew up in much the same sort of place -and time, I suspect, but the part you didn't mention was that when you went home after the policeman or teacher had clipped your ear, you wouldn't tell Mum, because she'd clip the other one, on the principle that you MUST have done something wrong. The abiding thought seemed to be, 'adults right = kids wrong.'
Children learned the limits because adults seemed united against bad behavour. Films and other media made heroes of people who fought crime.

This worked fine for most of us, but for the unfortunate few who ran foul of a Pedephile(sp?), the problem was huge. And running kids to school in the car may keep them safer, but also teaches them they are important, a fact which totally escaped my notice in my youth.
I haven't any answers, (who has?) but life might be simpler if perverts were permanently removed from society and there were no sick films and computer games.
I'm sure some civil libertarians will have a go at me about that statement, but I've been around for a while now, and that is how I feel.   Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:15 AM

I agree with C-flat and Gurney - when I was a kid we were in fear of the local bobby and even of the park-keeper. and yes, if anything got home to the parents!! My family life wasn't much because my parents really didn't show any interest and I was left, with my brother, to roam the streets from about the age of nine, but the authority figures were there and you didn't argue with them. The problem now seems to be that there is no authority worth the name - teachers have no real way of disciplining kids when the kids and their parents all 'know their rights'. I have a theory that the more 'rights' that are given to the general population the less right we have to a peaceful, non violent way of life because the natural troublemakers, and I do believe that they exist, take full advantage of what they see as the weakness of society in general to satisfy themselves. i would like to see the return of some sort of corporal punishment but can imagine the screams that will go up from that statement! but why should the selfish acts of out of control idiots seem always to go unpunished. It is the rest of us who are being punished as a result.

On the question of paedophiles I'm to the right of Attilla the Hun - at the FIRST offence, lock'em away for good. I'm sure that I'll get the same approbation as Gurney but anyone who harms a child shouldn't be allowed in a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Grab
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:26 AM

Bassic, Japan is notorious for its child gangs. I think they basically restrict to fighting amongst each other, but cruelty by children to children is infamous. So even a controlled society isn't perfect.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:32 AM

growing up in a small town - every adult knew you - every adult felt free to correct you - every adult felt free to talk to your parents about you. Heck - I stopped in to the local bar for a beer after spending 8 hours harrowing fields one dry, dusty summer day (I was over 21 at the time - and had been legal to drink for over three years). this bar is less then a five minute walk from my home. I had *one* and left. By the time I reached home my parents had recieved 5 phojne calls telling them I was in the bar "getting smashed"

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 09:58 AM

When I was a kid I could ride down to the Y on the bus by myself, and got into trouble with the police for trying to bring a skinny old dog home on the bus. No wait, that was in the book Henry Huggins.

I can't completely disagree with the deterent theory, but I disagree a bit. Gurney's observation about kids learning they are important is a big deal to me, because if "exercising their rights" and getting in trouble is the only way for a kid to feel important, some will have to go for it just to get noticed. Child labor should be a good thing, but we can't generally trust the adult community with it. Deterents need effective alternatives. The kids didn't poison the well, and no amount of deterent will keep people from drinking, if bad water is all there is.

My kids are much better behaved than I was, although I met up with stronger deterents. I've never had to spank either of them, and I tell them I don't want to, but they have to help me, (I try to make it their job and notice the effort they put into it) or I probably will. For now that's working. And if we take late retirements and early deaths I think we might make this work.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:02 PM

A quiet island, no crime, music and the dole...try Sark.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:31 PM

This is not really a new problem. I'm almost 68 years old- about 45 years ago a friend recounted to me a run in her kids had recently had with an authority figure.

According to her, her pre-teen kids were out and about with some other kids and came across an apple orchard. They climbed the fence, ate a few apples and then out of boredom had an apple fight. A man across the way came out and told them to stop.

One kid says, Is this your orchard? The man says, No. The kid says, Then it's none of your business.

My friend agreed with her kids that the man had no business scolding them, and didn't even seem to notice the inherent disrepect her kids had shown.

I was appalled- I had been brought up to feel that someone else's property was sacrosanct (Don't touch it, my mother would say in a store, it's not yours.) and had brought up my daughter the same way.

I think that my friend's kind of thinking is at the distilled core of what has gone wrong amongst so many 'normal' families.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Shelley C at work
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:20 AM

People have been commenting that in the old days, adults could feel free to chastise kids who mis-behaved on the streets.

Well, it seems to me that nowadays adults don't actually use the streets much. Recently, when walking to a friends house (about 20 minutes away through a city suburb), I noticed that the only people I passed on the pavement were children and old people. All the adults go everywhere by car.

I think that a contributing factor might be that kids have gradually becoming used to behaving how they like because nobody sees them at it. If any adult did try to intervene, they would be unlikely to have the support of 'passers by' - because there wouldn't be anyone passing by.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:32 AM

"I have no hope in the future of our country when today's youths will be the adults of tomorrow. They are unbearable, irresponsible and awful to look at."

So it has to be true for that comes from Aristotle, written roughly 350 BC.

It always has been the privilege of people approaching old age to lament that the world and the young people are getting worse with each year.

But aside from that of course I agree with all of you: Though we were by far not as bad as our parents thought we were today's youth really is as bad as we think they are.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:37 AM

The sins of the father are visited on the son. As each generation's standards sink lower, the next generation's fall lower still because they aren't set a good example by their predecessors.

Don't blame the kids - it's down to us adults. It's us the kids learn from, if we teach them crap that's what they'll know.

A generalisation I know, I realise there are a lot of good folks out there, young and old, but it's still the case that behaviour's in a sad decline.

Incidentally 'Shelley C at work', don't us old people qualify as adults? There's some good tunes played on old fiddles.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: The Walrus
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:23 AM

Comment has been made that both parents and children all seem to 'know their rights' - Isn't it a pity that the converse is not true, they very seldom seem to know their duties.

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM

someone wrote in to a Vancover WA newspaper on the purpose of a father..one person said (amongst other duties of course) was to protect society from his children.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:58 AM

Guest, it is to laugh. You have a strange idea of what is gossip. And that's the truth: ppppfffffttttt.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: HuwG
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:45 AM

At a club where I regularly attend sessions, there is a notice which reads, "Children are the responsibility of the adults who brought them into the club". Someone crossed out the word, "club", and replaced it with, "world".

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:07 PM

no - children are the responsibility of the society in which they are being raised.

The old cliche about "it takes a village to raise a child" - well - it *should*

There is a lot to be said for the extended family and the closeness that smaller villages etc had - expecially when it comes to raising well mannered kids who are polite, secure, and well adjusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 05:59 PM

I think there is a very heavy price to pay for a society in which most parents are in paid full time employment.

But as with most of these things, the reality is a lot more patchy than people make out, with whole swathes of society where these kind of problems just aren't a major issue - and I'm not talking about well-off kids here, because they are probably just as prone to go wrong as any. What I mean is, families and communities which work as well as ever, with responsible parents, and helpful neighbours and kids with boundaries they can recogise, and more or less respect.

However there are an awful lot of things about the way the world is shaped that make that harder. I mentioned one, and another is the pattern of work that means people have to cut their roots and leave their families and friends and then raise their children in relative isolation.

Whether corporal punishment is in any way relevant I doubt - my parents never raised a hand to me, my school teachers regularly did. I probably behaved a lot worse in school than I did at home. I'd say part of that would have been because of corporal punishments rather than the other way. The threat of being beaten can be a deterrent obviously, but once you've been beaten a few times that just wears off. Short of the kind of brutality that I don't think people are talking about. And my experience has been that the kids who are worst trouble have often had a lot of brutality in their life. Typically , random and inconsistent brutality, often not related to anything they have done, but to how other people were feeling at the time.

And the way we build and use the places we live in is a major source of the problems that erupt.

A book that I always felt said a lot of sensible stuff about these kinds of issues is The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jean Jacobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:48 PM

We have had a lot of hand wringing on this thread about whos to blame for the actions of these child ren , but more and more its what are we going to do about it, thats the real question.Iv been reading over the replies and it seems that nobody has a clue about a remedy. Could it be that a remedy would involve the destruction of many Mudcatters social ideals?    Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:29 PM

Basically, for a start, it's a matter of paying attention to what your children do, and spending time with them rather than money. And recognising that you have a responsibility for what neighbours' children get up to as well. (And that means finding ways in which the people living near you are neighbours rather than strangers.)

There's never "a remedy" that can just be rolled out to eliminate an undesirable change in society. Just a lot of litle changes that retrospectively can be identified as bringing about a further change that solves some problems and brings along other ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,A regular poster - but anon for this.
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:34 PM

Sorry to log in as Anon Guest, but I think you will appreciate why.

A year or two ago my sister was having heavy grief from the local yobs. PC Plod did not take the matter seriously. The culmination was burning paper being pushed through her letter box.

Unfortunately Police attended and did nothing despite a visual ID on the little bastards. ( I may add her husband is an HGV (trs = Trucker) on the long hauls to the continent, and east, and can be away for a week or two)

Cross checking where it was possible, indicated that the famillies concerned "were known" to Social Services and the Police as "problems"

My Brother in Law and I set out to ambush the identified ring leader late one night and pasted him, as painfully as possible, kneecaps, testicles etc.

Result?, a rather unpleasent hour or two being interviewed under caution by the police but with no forensic evidence and no witnesses, and no "verbals" hence no charges.

Wrong? Well, we were wrong to dispense violence, but if the circumstances warrented it we'd do it again. I don't claim to be proud of my actions, but the parents did not give a damn about where thier kids were late at night, or the consequences to thier kids or others.

Result? My sister has had no more trouble from that source.

Moral? If PC Plod / Social Services had done the job properly in the first instance, they would have wasted far less of thier time investigating a case af GBH, and might have saved this 14/15 year old from a traumatic kicking.

Cost? - two sets of disposable workmens overauls, and two pairs of second hand working boots - I understand that they were dumped in a trash can outside Calais that same morning.

Again I am not happy with this, but when everybody knows thier rights, and forgets about thier responsabilities what can you do ?

Anon Catter

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:54 PM

And most likely some other innocent victim caught hell instead of your sister.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:03 PM

I'm trying to do a little of the sorts of things McGrath and Mmario suggest, and try to spend time with their classmates. I'm looking into doing more of it, more thoughtfully. More than half the world has less money than me, so it seems odd to complain, but it is worrisome. And I think we're bombarded with food for worry in the U.S. Probably the best observation in Bowling for Columbine, which I just saw, was about this culture of fear.

I'm not sure what remedy would destroy which ideals, Akenaton--you seem to have something in mind. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:21 PM

If you want them, in general, to behave, you have to chaperone them to a certain age...you can't let them go off to parties where there are either incompetent or no adults...with drinking and drugs. If you don't want your daughters to get pregnant, you or someone has to chaperone them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 12:19 AM

You can complain to their parents all you like. If their parents are drunk as skunks or higher than kites, they won't do anything.
My friend Jeannie had trouble with little creeps breaking into her house in Point Breeze. She had a wiccan friend cast a protection spell on the house. She had said wiccan cast said spell on the front lawn, at a time when all the little creeps were hanging out on the street. The break ins stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 06:01 AM

"If their parents are drunk as skunks or higher than kites..." - but a lot of the time the parents aren't those kind of things, and have no idea of what is going on. Assume the worst about anyone and you are likely to bring it about.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 03 - 02:47 PM

Well Fred ...Being pretty new to this internet lark I might be wrong ,butIt seems to me a very high percentage of Mudcatters are of the pinkish hue politically..I dont mean that in a derogatory way ,as I used to be of a bright crimson hue before I abandoned politics.. all together....We socialists tend to blame most things on the system ,and often with good reason,but this problem seems to involve the phycology of these children,(unemotional,hard,unaffected by other peoples pain or worry).Maybe all the old answers that the conservative used to push,(National service,boot camps ect )would help,even though they may be anathema to us...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:18 PM

Well, sure, Ake, I'm pretty pink myself. Those sorts of things might be beneficial to some kids, and other opportunities to do other sorts of things might be beneficial to others. I think that's true.

    But the systematic idea that kids are being prepared for "life" is a pretty cruel hoax, though. This expanding conception of semi-suspended animation deeply insults kids. More stuff to actually do is good, but we tend to taint a lot of what we could offer kids to do, because we're... what's the word I'm looking for? ...worried? busy? tired? scared? sick?

    Even in self-conscious role playing, grown teachers begin to act out, childishly, when they're treated condescendingly, without positive expectations. My boy is seven. After the first week of school he had a few comments. He was glad he wasn't in the new teacher's class because they have to do "funsheets". That's for kindergarten--they're WORKsheets, he says. And this is the third time we're learning about Johnny Appleseed, he says. (I think teachers like it as a metaphor for what they do. The kids are starting to wonder what what's going on. )

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 05:26 AM

Once again, there's Left and there's Right, and there's Authoritarian and there's Libertarian, and there's no direct relationship between those two ways of measuring opinion. Any disagreements about national service and boot camps and so forth are to do with authoritarian/libertarian, not with left/right. (As demonstrated by Cuba, for example.)

If children are brought up in a way that damages them, they get damaged, and damaged children cause serious problems for other people. All kinds of things about the way we run society seem to me likely to damage children - such things as absent and ill-equipped parents, junk food, an immersion in fantasy violence, environments which are physically and socially threatening.

It seems common sense to try to identify the social factors that have helped produce damaged children and damaged citizens. That's only half of it, because they are still damaged and that can mean dangerous, and trying to heal the damage and limit the danger is another matter entirely.

The kind of solutions that make most sense to me involve doing things that bring people directly up against the consequences of their actions, and insisting that they undo the harm and make recompense for the harm they cannot undo.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 07:11 PM

When I look at the McGraths post of 29 Aug 03 - 07:54 PM I wonder if anon poster and his brother in law might have better spent their time kicking hell out of the yobs Social Worker.

At least it might have restored a degree of reality.

Gareth

Mmmm ??? Is there a folk song here ??

"Once A jolly Social Worker, went into a housing trust,
Safely preserved from reality,
And he sang as he went all through the dirt and graffitti,
Nobody's at fault but Society."

" And he sang as he went .... "

Nah, to easy a target.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 07:35 PM

What brought that on Gareth? My suggestion that the chances are that the chances are that the yobs in question probably moved off and took it out on some new victim rather than deciding to give up the yobbery, just because one of them had had a good thumping? You think that's improbable or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 12:17 AM

Some of the posts have missed the fact thqt we're designed by nature to be reared by amateurs. Many have decent childhoods and many don't. Most of those who don't avoid a life of crime. Bad parents can help a child go wrong, society can help too. In the final analysis, most choose it themselves.

More money and less work are powerful arguments. Sure and fair punishment is the only antidote I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 12:56 AM

It seems most probable, to me. I don't quite begrudge anyone having done what they have the power to do but I also think there remain those that don't have the power, don't have those to do it for them, or--wouldn't ask for help.

It's just brutish vanity to suppose that doing something like that is more than it is, it's one drop in one bucket. It's like those badass movies aimed at teens which pretend to teach a lesson, but just shift the win from the bad badass to the good badass. It's the kind of change you find under the couch-cushions. It's shortsighted, short-tempered, it's punk-stuff. I might do something like that but hope I'd stop short of kissing my own ass about it.

I think an apology would make sense. Care to grow up a little, Gareth?

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:23 AM

Gareth & McGrath,
Anon's actions (didn't it used to be called 'Summary Justice') may seem extreme, but they worked. Whether the evil-doer then moved off and took it out on someone else is immaterial. Nevertheless it may be OK for some people, but not for others.
I guess everyone's got a view and we all think our view's best, but surely what we need is consistency - for all adults to have a clear view of what society demands of individuals' behaviour, and for them to apply the rules in a consistent way?
It seems that nowadays individuals' freedoms to do as they like seem to take priority over their duty to society. Wasn't always that way - we hear about how, in the 30's when people had nothing, not even a job, you could go out and leave your door unlocked without fear of being burgled. In those days people had standards that transcended the 'Me First And Sod The Others' philosophy that we've allowed to take over today.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:44 AM

I'm sorry to butt in Strolling Johnny, but isn't it only "immaterial" what happens next in the special sense of Who Cares? Or perhaps, Not My Problem? How does that square with duty to society? What does the sense of one particular short-term quick-fix hold against any interest in the bigger questions?

Not everybody locks their doors now, even with having things to lose, and jobs. Again I think the most interesting thing in the film Bowling For Columbine was some observations about a culture of fear in the U.S. We seem to be the reigning kings of violent crime among civilised societies. But Moore's film did seem to return to liberal party line views and sentiments no matter what it observed along the way.

I think systematic punishments might be an antidote if evildoers were generally smart, informed, and calculating, like in melodramas. If they sat back weighing the consequences of their actions reasonably, it would tend to deter them more I suppose. But aren't many of them stupid, unreasoning, and cocksure they will escape consequences because they imagine they are so bright and clever?

I don't think more money and less work is an antidote either, it's a bottomless pit. People want enough money to guard against everything they're afraid of, and as they get more money the scale just slides. It's never enough. So we have suit-and-tie crime of the soft-handed Not My Problem/Who Cares variety, and also the punky sort always seeking the nearest weaker victim. It's not that one may cause the other, it's pretty much the same thing.

People don't know how to be proud without proof, and don't know how to be ashamed of apparent success. I think it's a failure of aesthetic sense, a failure of culture to be clean and interesting. Our culture invites you along like a friend, picks your pockets, takes you nowhere, leaves you there, scared. Works really well with kids. This may be the dumbest idea yet offered here, but it's what I generally tend to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:51 AM

ARE THERE NO PRISONS?

ARE THERE NO WORKHOUSES?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 12:24 PM

"It's the kind of change you find under the couch-cushions." (fred miller)

I like that - is it a quote, or an expression in use in your part of the world, or your own coinage?

The ridiculous thing is that the people who are " generally smart, informed, and calculating", and who might perhaps be deterred by harsh sentences, are the very people who can expect to get of with token punishnent. Notably white collar criminals - including those whose actions may have caused the deaths of large numbers of innocent people.

The real deterrent is knowing that it is virtually certain that you will be caught, and will be made to make good what you have spoilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 12:38 PM

Fred, I meant only that the desired result had been obtained from the action (i.e. that the miscreants stopped hassling the butt-kickers' lady-friend), not that it doesn't matter if they went elsewhere and hassled someone else. Sorry, my choice of phraseology wasn't very clear. I was trying to make a point that, at the moment the butt-kicking took place, the butt-kickers weren't interested in anything other than stopping the hassling of their friend. That the miscreants might do it elsewhere wasn't a part of the butt-kickers' reasoning.

So it's back to my other point - the need for consistency from adults in enforcing a code of socially-acceptable conduct (and I include EVERYONE in that - parents, teachers, social workers (who often seem to be professional excuse-makers), judges (ditto social workers), Old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all. Unfortunately, and this goes right back to my first posting, standards seem to be falling amongst adults over successive generations in a logarithmic way.

Reading your posting over again (twice) I think you and I are in agreement - you're just more eloquent with words than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 01:30 PM

Lot of stereotyping going on here - my experience from working for 20 years as a social worker is that your average social worker is no more likely to be particularly easy going or excuse-making than any any other bunch of white-collar workers. Quite a high proportion are probably a lot less so.

Trying to identify reasons why something happens just isn't the same as excusing people for their actions. I'm not a great Tony Blair fan, but his soundbite "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" was well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:38 PM

Was my remark about "change" my own "coinage" McGrath? I like that. I think it was.

I thought we were more or less in agreement Strollin' Johnny, but was a little rattled by previous posts, which make me feel defensive about broadening the question. Makes me wonder--never mind.

   If I seemed to be responding in disagreement that's probably my ploy so I can try to paraphrase what you just said, as if I didn't see that you'd said it already. Gives me the illusion I have a few original thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:10 PM

Oi ! Fred - Stop squirming - I can overlook your attack on me, as the gut reaction of those whose shiboliths are challenged, I will not ignore your trivialisation of an individuals duty towards society as a whole.

As I type this, 01:00 hrs local time I can hear and see a group of "merry" youths walk past this house - Age guestimated at 13/16 years of age.

I wonder if thier parents know or Care where they are or what they have been doing.

Monday morning I was out with a camera, in our local park, to record the damage/ debrise left. Local residents were complaining

Childrens swings vandelised, broken glass etc. in the play area, benches burnt, litter bins upturned.

That is not pro-social behaviour, and I am afraid that excuses and saying that "Society has failed them" will no longer wash.

Oh and by the way Fred you are correct I owe a general appology to to social workers. As it happen I know a fair number, many are good but ovewhelmed, some I would not trust to keep a dog.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

And I'd agree with both parts of that last sentence, Gareth. But if anyone ever has a dog to re-home, I'd say they'd be wise to steer clear of the SWs who have been promoted fast. As a rule of thumb - as always there are exceptions

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM

Mmmm ! Just to give a more pleasent view of the matter Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:44 PM

Gareth,
Not sure where I trivialised duty to society but to the extent I may have, do you mind if I don't rely on your guidance about it?

   I might also suppose there are root causes for say, insider trading, and I think I've implied as much. If you can only think of that as a sympathetic excuses, that's up to you. Please don't include me into your confusion of considering root causes and making excuses for behavior. What do I care? It's not my problem.

I didn't bother take you seriously about social workers in general. I'm sure social workers everywhere have been united in hoping you'd issue an apology, but now that long ordeal is over, and they can get back to work. I was thinking of something less grand, but never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

No confusion on my part Fred - Judging by your comments I can not see that you are capable of acepting guidence from anybody

"What do I care? It's not my problem"

Precisely - Your Words - Your attitude !!

And God help Society.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Child crime.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:48 PM

O come off it, guy, lighten up. You know perfectly well you ought to apologise to McGrath in particular for your perfectly barbaric rude comments, yet to squirm out of it you confuse it into a rather self-serving apology to sw's as--I'm still not sure what--a class? a species?

When one is not confused they usually say something is "too easy a target" before not after they attempt to attack and ridicule it.

If you paid any attention to what I or anyone else was trying to say you might have noticed a few things. "What do I care it's not my problem" is again an easy target, but I of course used it ironically in reference to the same phrases in my previous post.

(No, I might as well tell you, you're right, again. Child crime is mostly my fault, well, McGrath and I together, with our armies of young hoodlums, led by the bad sort of social workers with their vicious, maltreated dogs, we will rule the world, and sooner than you think, my dear sir. Perhaps you've been clever enough to find us out, but it's too late. There's nothing you the anonymous poster and his brother-in-law can do to stop us. As it is, you've only managed to disrupt an otherwise sensible discussion we were engaged in as a ruse to give a false appearance of legitimate concern. We obviously hope to find root causes or contributing factors in regard to child crime so we can use them for our diabolical ends.)

If I can get back to my pretense of concern for a moment, I can't remember who said that sanity was largely a social concern, because we take our cues daily from people around us. I think it was John Updike. But I think it's true to a pretty large extent, and applies to child crime, too. There's something like a communicable insanity to it, when it seems to spread or grow, cult-like. One doesn't have to make any excuses for them (they do that for you) but still it might be useful to form an idea what to do to contain it. There was one theory of evil about Hitler that explored the question of whether he believed himself, and it supposed that he came to believe himself in the process of giving speeches and convincing others, in a spiral of social confirmation.

Even I think I sound a bit nutty when I talk about aesthetics and culture as a factor in crimes and violence, but there's this practical sense to it. People are of course responsible for their own actions, but when something seems to be developing off the chart of the "normal" range of moral failings, I think there's also this dangerous aspect of the kinds of bonds people are forming with each other.

Obviously it's frustrating and people object to ideas that might seem to serve as excuses for criminals to make for their actions. Even if that's not what the idea means, some lawyer is bound to use it, and people who live to make excuses for themselves will naturally use anything. It's the main mark of this anti-social mind that you can't get some people see that they are responsible, regardless of the societal patterns or contributing factors. It's like that part of the brain is missing. But it might not be that difficult to sort out the purpose of asking these questions. It makes sense if it's to know how to do our part to prevent further harm, not to excuse harms that people have done.