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Top 100 Guitarists of All Time

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Mark Clark 29 Aug 03 - 12:24 AM
musicmick 29 Aug 03 - 12:52 AM
katlaughing 29 Aug 03 - 12:53 AM
DonMeixner 29 Aug 03 - 01:11 AM
Benjamin 29 Aug 03 - 01:14 AM
catspaw49 29 Aug 03 - 01:18 AM
mooman 29 Aug 03 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England 29 Aug 03 - 02:46 AM
Margret RoadKnight 29 Aug 03 - 02:48 AM
songs2play 29 Aug 03 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England 29 Aug 03 - 03:00 AM
kendall 29 Aug 03 - 03:00 AM
Roger the Skiffler 29 Aug 03 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Ghirotondo at work 29 Aug 03 - 03:27 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Aug 03 - 04:10 AM
katlaughing 29 Aug 03 - 04:22 AM
alanabit 29 Aug 03 - 04:35 AM
Sir Roger de Beverley 29 Aug 03 - 04:57 AM
greg stephens 29 Aug 03 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Strollin' Johnny 29 Aug 03 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Clint 29 Aug 03 - 07:40 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 03 - 07:51 AM
Dave Bryant 29 Aug 03 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Den 29 Aug 03 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Den 29 Aug 03 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,John Hardly 29 Aug 03 - 09:14 AM
Roger the Skiffler 29 Aug 03 - 09:15 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Aug 03 - 09:17 AM
Midchuck 29 Aug 03 - 09:24 AM
Nerd 29 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM
Willie-O 29 Aug 03 - 09:42 AM
ced2 29 Aug 03 - 09:51 AM
Bill D 29 Aug 03 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,nancyjo 29 Aug 03 - 10:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 03 - 10:34 AM
Amos 29 Aug 03 - 10:40 AM
The O'Meara 29 Aug 03 - 10:44 AM
Candyman(inactive) 29 Aug 03 - 10:58 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 03 - 10:59 AM
Candyman(inactive) 29 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM
Bob Hitchcock 29 Aug 03 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Frankham 29 Aug 03 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,pdq 29 Aug 03 - 12:33 PM
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Subject: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:24 AM

According to Rolling Stone, these are the 100 greatest guitarists of all time. I'm guessing some choices on this list will surprise more than a few people. Espically those who have any knowledge of guitar and guitarists.

I've reproduced the list here because the Rolling Stone site is plagued with really annoying pop-ups.

      - Mark

  1. Jimi Hendrix (The Greatest of All Time)
  2. Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band
  3. B.B. King
  4. Eric Clapton
  5. Robert Johnson
  6. Chuck Berry
  7. Stevie Ray Vaughan
  8. Ry Cooder
  9. Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin
  10. Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones
  11. Kirk Hammett of Metallica
  12. Kurt Cobain of Nirvana
  13. Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead
  14. Jeff Beck
  15. Carlos Santana
  16. Johnny Ramone of the Ramones
  17. Jack White of the White Stripes
  18. John Frusciante of the Red Hot Chili Peppers
  19. Richard Thompson
  20. James Burton
  21. George Harrison
  22. Mike Bloomfield
  23. Warren Haynes
  24. The Edge of U2
  25. Freddy King
  26. Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave
  27. Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits
  28. Stephen Stills
  29. Ron Asheton of the Stooges
  30. Buddy Guy
  31. Dick Dale
  32. John Cipollina of Quicksilver Messenger Service
  33. Lee Ranaldo and
  34. Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth
  35. John Fahey
  36. Steve Cropper of Booker T. and the MG's
  37. Bod Diddley
  38. Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac
  39. Brian May of Qeen
  40. John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
  41. Clarence White of the Byrds
  42. Robert Fripp of King Crimson
  43. Eddie Hazel of Funkadelic
  44. Scotty Moore
  45. Frank Zappa
  46. Les Paul
  47. T-Bone Walker
  48. Joe Perry of Aerosmith
  49. John McLaughlin
  50. Pete Townshend
  51. Paul Kossoff of Free
  52. Lou Reed
  53. Mickey Baker
  54. Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane
  55. Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple
  56. Tom Verlaine of Television
  57. Roy Buchanan
  58. Dickey Betts
  59. Jonny Greenwood and
  60. Ed O'Brien of Radiohead
  61. Ike Turner
  62. Zoot Horn Rollo of the Magic Band
  63. Danny Gatton
  64. Mick Ronson
  65. Hubert Sumlin
  66. Vernon Reid of Living Colour
  67. Link Wray
  68. Jerry Miller of Moby Grape
  69. Steve Howe of Yes
  70. Eddie Van Halen
  71. Lightnin' Hopkins
  72. Joni Mitchell
  73. Trey Anastasio of Phish
  74. Johnny Winter
  75. Adam Jones of Tool
  76. Ali Farka Toure
  77. Henry Vestine of Canned Heat
  78. Robbie Robertson of the Band
  79. Cliff Gallup of the Blue Caps (1997)
  80. Robert Quine of the Voidoids
  81. Derek Trucks
  82. David Gilmour of Pink Floyd
  83. Neil Young
  84. Eddie Cochran
  85. Randy Rhoads
  86. Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath
  87. Joan Jett
  88. Dave Davies of the Kinks
  89. D. Boon of the Minutemen
  90. Glen Buxton of Alice Cooper
  91. Robby Krieger of the Doors
  92. Fred "Sonic" Smith and
  93. Wayne Kramer of the MC5
  94. Bert Jansch
  95. Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine
  96. Angus Young of AC/DC
  97. Robert Randolph
  98. Leigh Stephens of Blue Cheer
  99. Greg Ginn of Black Flag
  100. Kim Thayil of Soundgarden


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: musicmick
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:52 AM

Well, the list is more expository of Rolling Stone than of the history of guitar technique. I mean, they include non guitarists, like Joni Mitchell, and disregard those geniuses who played in the jazz, classical, flamenco and folk genres. What a joke. I suppose that each of us might come up with a list of our 100 best and, I suppose that every list would be different. I would hope, however, that Mudcatters, who profess a fondness for folk music (or, at leat, for accoustic music) would not emulate the good folk of Rolling Stone and their veiled suggestion that music was invented in the early 1950's by Sun Records.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:53 AM

They missed Rick Fielding and Justa Picker.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:11 AM

Where do:

Chet Atkins
Merle Travis
Tommy Emmanuel
Ike Everly
Jerry Reed
Doc Watson

Belong????


Easily half the people on that list fall in the "Come on! Are fuckin' Nuts!?" bin.

Don


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Benjamin
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:14 AM

Gee, that's about the worst list I've seen. In addition to the things musicmic pointed out, almost all of them are either from and/or live(d) in America or Europe. Great guitarists don't just come from the "western" world.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:18 AM

Another worthless "Top" list.........Ya' gotta' love these things doncha'?   Thanks for the laughs Mark!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: mooman
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:18 AM

Tosh! As are all such lists!

And Joni Mitchell is actually a very fine guitarist...

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:46 AM

Charlie Byrd (Bossa nova guitar genius)
Big Joe Williams (Mississippi delta bluesman genius)
Django Reinhardt (Gypsy jazz genius)
Leo Kotke (6 & 12 string fingerstyle genius)
John Hammond (the greatest living exponent of Robert Johnson's music)

Thats 5 that spring to mind.....Charlie Byrd was in my humble opinion the greatest ever acoustic guitarist...Big Joe was the greatest of all the bluesmen...The sheer depth of rhythm in his music raised country blues guitar to the levels of Flamenco..

Regards.

Jim Clark.
http://groups.msn.com/acousticmusiciansandpoetssoundarchive


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:48 AM

Agree with mooman on both counts.
Joni Mitchell definitely deserves to be there, as do quite a few other females, e.g.another great innovator Ellen McIlwaine (Jimi Hendrix was so impressed with Ellen he used to perform with her, for free!)
Bit light on with the African wizards also, e.g. Jean Bosco Mwende, Sekou "Diamond Fingers' Diabate, Kante Manfila, etc....


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: songs2play
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:52 AM

Where's Blind Blake?
A Rolling Stone gathers no moss - just worthless lists.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:00 AM

All those Jonah's out there....surely this is just a bit of fun,and gives us all a chance to nominate guitarists we admire..

Of course there can be no definitive list...Music isnt the Olympics..there is nobody to cross the metaphorical line first..just guitar players who in our opinions we think are good at whey do or did...

So come on stop whinging and give us your lists ha ha.

Regards.

Jim Clark
(Incidently no relation to the Mark Clark that started this discussion,though I do have a brother called Mark ha ha)


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:00 AM

What a crock! What do they mean by "Top" anyway?
The greatest guitarist of all time, Andres' Segovia, is not even mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:27 AM

No Lonnie Johnson or Joe Pass?

RtS


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Ghirotondo at work
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:27 AM

Bah!
Where are John Rembourn and Stefan Grossman?


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:10 AM

I know MTed would be disappointed if I didn't point out their omission of Tony McManus (who, incidentally is described by none other than John Renbourn as the best Celtic guitarist in the world)

Does the list purport to be in any sort of order of merit? Because if so, to rank Keith Richards and Kurt Cobain in front of a genius like Roy Buchanan is simply laughable.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:22 AM

Also, Jerry Douglas, Libba Cotten, and those Don mentioned, too! As well as John Williams and Gustavo Santaollala...


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:35 AM

Rolling Stone is a magazine for rock and rollers. The list here reflects no more than the tastes of their readership. Of course you can't take it seriously. Even fans of the Rolling Stones (band) like me will be baffled why Keith Richard is on the list and Mick Taylor is not. However we try to measure the achievement of our favourite musicians, at the end of the day it all comes down to whether we like noise they make. Even in a field of music which I like, I can't say that one guitarist is better than another once they have reached a certain level of technique and musicality. I would rather hear Peter Green playing, "Man of the World", Eric Clapton playing, "Crossroads" and Mick Taylor playing, "Stray Cat Blues". None of them is the "best" guitarist. So how can we measure the achievement of Segovia against that of Bert Jansch or Charlie Christian?


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:57 AM

But surely in even a rock and roll magazine list Buddy Holly should get a mention. It just shows how little regard he has in his own country compared to, for example, how we see him in the UK.

I have only seen numbers 6, 14, 19, 64, 88 and 94 play live so I can't comment on the others.

Roger


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 05:22 AM

Well, I cant be bothered with any list that hasnt got Eddie Lang on it.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:21 AM

Or Martin Simpson!


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:40 AM

Or Rory Gallagher!


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 07:51 AM

Buddy Holly was a great songwriter, but no great shakes on guitar.
Taylor vs Richards? The only people I'd put in Keith's league for writing licks and guitar hooks would be muddy waters and Jimmy Page. He'd be near the top of the list for me. Gimmie Shelter is far and away my favourite guitar song. Was Keith and Micvk or Keith and Brian? Its only Rock & Roll baby.

I think that "The Mudcat's top 100 guitar players of all time" would be a far different list than Rolling Stone's and yes, I'd expect to see both Joni Mitchell and Rick Fielding near the top of that list. Its probably a list worth compiling.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 08:06 AM

What about a chap who I knew at achool - Albert Lee.
Albert has backed and played with many big names (Emmylou Harris, Eric Clapton, Glen Campbell, Chris Farlowe, Dave Edmonds, Dolly Parton, Bobby Bare, Joan Armatrading, The Crickets, Ricky Scaggs, Joe Cocker, Willie Nelson, Linda Ronstadt, Rodney Crowell and Many many more) but has never really gone for the limelight preferring to enjoy just playing, and more recently, teaching guitar.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 08:32 AM

No Rock guitarist's list should be complete without Gary Moore and you're right on the money Clint one of the most underestimated, under recognized guitarist's in rock, the late great Rory Gallagher.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 08:34 AM

Forgot to mention Billy Gibbons, that guy can make two notes sound great.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:14 AM

It's in print. It must be true.

Thanks, Mark, for the enlightenment. I must go now and work on my Neil Young licks.....

....eeeeeeew. Is it just me, or does the juxtaposition of "Neil Young" with "licks" cause immediate revultion?

Quick! Somebody give me something good to think about!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:15 AM

yeah, Dave, Albert Lee is still doing great things with Bill Wyman's Rhythm Kings.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:17 AM

Albert Lee, absolutely, right up there with the best (incidentally James Burton who is a similar style to Lee should be much higher on the list).

Dave , was Albert Lee a youthful prodigy on the guitar while he was in school, or did he develop later on ?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:24 AM

But the title isn't "The Top 100 Pop/Rock Guitarists of All Time." It's just "The Top 100 Guitarists..."

So the omission of Andres and Doc and Django, just to begin with, entitles it to the award for "The Stupidest Top 100 List of All Time."

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM

How about:

Paul Brady
Martin Carthy
Txomin Artola
Pierre Bensusan
Pat Metheny

etc, etc, etc....



You could even put Lonnie Donegan on as one of the most INFLUENTIAL, if not technically greatest, guitarists....


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:42 AM

What annoys me is that there is no explanation on the website (www.rollingstone.com of how the list was compiled, by whom, and what kind of criteria and methodology was used. Why don't they just say it's a rock guitarist popularity poll, with a few representatives of other genres thrown in if they have name recognition?

#1 spot was a foregone conclusion; I was glad to see Duane Allman in #2, however he got there. You like to see your heroes get recognized. In fact, I think the Allman Brothers is the only band with three entries on the list (Duane, Warren Haynes, and Dickie Betts).

W-O


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: ced2
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:51 AM

What a list of old bollocks... No Segovia... John Williams.... Django etc. etc. Just goes to show how self serving such lists are, having buggar all to do with music... BS threads seem a more suitable place... come to think of it there is more merit in a decent game of Mornington Cresent. No doubt North Wales's most famous resident would agree... What say you Mrs T?


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:54 AM

that stupid list is 99% rock/pop..but it DOES mention Danny Gatton, who, according to many other guitarists, ought to be #1 in the electric/rock category.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,nancyjo
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:30 AM

Am I the only one who thinks George Harrison deserves a mention? If "influence" on the field is a factor in "great", I would think so.

nancyjo


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:34 AM

George is mentioned #21.

Gosh folks, It is Rolling Stone Magazine. It is not so much self serving as serving their readers. They're just doing their jobs.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:40 AM

Fred Hellerman should be on it as well -- they missed so many boats it's ridiculous!

A


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: The O'Meara
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:44 AM

Duane Eddy.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Candyman(inactive)
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:58 AM

How about Lester Flatt? After all, flatt picking is named after him.

Seriously, though, folks. When a list like this comes out, you have to consider where it's coming from. Rolling Stone is a narrow rock and pop magazine. Most of the great guitarists left-off their list, Doc Watson, Martin Carthy, Segovia, Joe Pass, and about a thousand more, aren't even, or are barely, on their radar.

You gotta realize that a list like that in Rolling Stone is no more relevant than the many Best Folksinger, Best Female Voice, etc. lists that we see on Mudcat. It's all a very subjective relection of who is compiling the list. In Rolling Stone, most of the choices will reflect the major record labels that advertoise heavily in the magazine.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:59 AM

Y'all need to make your own list.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Candyman(inactive)
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

relection

Somebody stole the f from reflection.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:11 AM

Any list of guitarists which limits itself to 100 is bound to be incomplete. I agree that those on the list are good players and in some way deserve to be there, but of course there are many other great players missing, my additions would include:-

Hank Marvin
Wes Montgomery
Tal Farlow
Freddy Green
etc, etc,

Maybe there should be a Top 10,000 list so we could make most of us happy.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:27 AM

One of my favorite guitarists was Burl Ives because he never let his guitar get in the way of a good song.

Josh White because he integrated his playing so well that you couldn't separate his singing from his playing.




Eddie Lang who was the most influential accoustic jazz guitarist. Django built much of his style on his (Django-Grapelli) (Lang-Venuti)

For jazz accoustic style: Oscar Aleman needs a mention.

Tal Farlow...electric jazz needs a mention.
Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Joe Pass


Frank Vignola for accoustic jazz never made the list.   


Did Julian Bream make the list?

As for electric jazz buffs, you don't have to look much forward to a an unknown (xcept in elec. jazz circles) Ted Greene.

Did Hank Garland or Eldon Shamblin make the list?

For all of these there must be a hundred more who didn't make the list.

Rolling Stone is concerned with rock and popularity in that genre.
THe whole idea of 100 best is a "straw man".

Frank Hamilton










Did Pierre Bensusan get mentioned for DADGAD?


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:33 PM

Eldon Shamblin was probably the best rhythm guitarist ever, and played in a style invented by Karl Kress, a true genuis. Genuis also applies to Lonnie Johnson.

A list of Rock players without Randy California???


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,SJ
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM

Emily Slade is a very hot guitarist. you should hear her new album 'Fretless' listen to the title track. WWWWWWWWWWooooooWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:57 PM

I saw Freddie King live and he outplayed all the various Kings, ever B.B. Joan Jett but no Steve Morse?? The list as presented needs a mojor overhaul.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Candyman(inactive)
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:06 PM

In terms of rhythm and chording, three of the all-time best were/are Freddie Green, Ted Bogan and Jackie Washington (the JW in Canada, not the Boston folkie of the '60s).


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:46 PM

Pat Metheny? How about Pepe Romero, Eduardo Fernandez, Julian Bream, John Williams, Carlos Montoya, Mario Escudero, Sabicas? Maybelle Carter?

I think that the people who make up these lists don't get out much.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: Benjamin
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:26 PM

If you want to bring up classical guitarists- David Russell, Roland Dyens, Ana Vidovic, Manuel Barrueco, Scott Tenant, Jorge Morel, Kaz. Yamashita and Fred Hand all deserve to be there. Many others including Martha Masters, Antonio Lopez, and Frederic Zigante at least deserve to be considered.
As for popular guitarists they missed- Phil Keaggy, Prince (shut up Raed!!!!)


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 02:45 PM

Went over list again. No Tony Rice?

Actually, the best guitarist working now, in the US, is David Grier. That is one man's opinon.


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Subject: RE: Top 100 Guitarists of All Time
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 03:57 PM

Fred"Sonic" Smith and Wayne Kramer but no Dick Wagner? Hmmm.

Even if it was just rock guitarists, where is someone like T-Bone Walker, who is probably the most copied electric guitarist,with Bo Diddly right up close to him?

Mostly though, this list leaves off the studio guys like Tommy Tedesco and Steve Lukather who really created and played a lot of those memorable licks that we have been encouraged to believe came from some of the guys on this list--

And,thanks, Murray, where was Tony McManus?


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