Singarounds- Forgetting your words

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:07 AM

When the singer makes the song theirs, & they should IMHO before they sing it...."

Exactly!

Regards

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: clansfolk
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:24 AM

ditto JB

-----------

Why make rules and if there "has" to be rules? - who decides they are the ones to make them?????

We ALL forget words, hit bum notes, play wrong chords, have strings break, cough, break wind and beltch etc........

It doesn't matter!!!

What makes one way right and another wrong???

People are dying all over the World because one set of people are trying to impose their version of "right" on others.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: mooman
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:41 AM

From what I've read here it seems that forgetting words (a quite human trait) is mainly more a problem of the audience than the singer. I therefor support what Cittern, JB and clansfolk and some others have said.

Music is to be enjoyed...not judged!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:57 AM

"Interesting to see the numnber of people here who took his tongue-in-cheek suggestion seriously. It seems it's not just some of the Yanks who have a bit of problem with the irony at times..."   

Isn't this the point I was trying to raise with the badge thing? If you have put a lot of effort into something, and are probably sh*t scared and shaking whilst doing it, then the last thing to make you feel comfortable and wanted is some git pinning an insensitive and offensive slogan on you.

Steve - I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not.... but thanks.

LTS

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:09 AM

I'm not either, Liz!

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:11 AM

If you are the poet I think you are, you READ your poems, and never sing at all!
No offence if I'm wrong,
Keith.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:12 AM

Sorry, just read your post where you owned up.
Keith

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:15 AM

Occasionally I've asked for a prompt from people who've heard my song before, and I never get one. Does this mean they never listen? Being a bit deaf, I wouldn't know what the prompt was if I got one! I doubt if I could prompt for a song I'd never sung myself.

I find the trouble with using the words is that (a) you lose eye-contact if you're reading from the paper, (b) if you use it as an aide-memoire you lose your place on the page and have to stop singing to find it, (c) you keep looking at it even when you do know the words, (d) you never learn the words anyway.

Steve

PS I mistyped (c) as "you keep looking a tit ..."! Freudian slip?

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:51 AM

In my usual shy and self-effacing manner I'd like to add a few points.

I have a 'catalogue' of fifty-or-so songs that I can 'do', using five different guitar tunings. It's a lot to remember - especially when you're an old fogey like me. So I have my 'safety-net' in front of me, for reference should I dry. I wish, oh how I wish, I could remember them all but I can't, and no amount of pressure from pontificating folk-nazis is going to change that. Should I be denied the pleasure of performing simply because some intolerant tit regards forgetfulness as a crime?

Professional performers as a rule do around twenty songs, give or take, in a performance. They forget words too, and are readily forgiven by their admiring audiences - why then can't the same forgiveness be afforded to the enthusiastic (and probably scared shitless) amateur?

Personally I don't care whether a performer memorises or reads his/her songs, it's the performance that matters. I've heard some great performances by readers and some pretty poor ones done from memory.

Bye guys,
JB

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:58 AM

"If you are the poet I think you are, you READ your poems, and never sing at all!"

Actually more often than not, unlike most, he doesn't read them, and he has been known to sing.

I think using a book of words works pretty well as a prop for a poet. It can for a singer too - anyone who saw Henry Kipper in action will know that very well. If you are using the written words I think it's better not to try to be surreptitious about it, but even to flourish them to punctuate the song. (That's not so easy if you are playing a musical instrument of course.)

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Lanfranc
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:18 AM

OK - irony filter suppressed!

Since most of us (those who don't read from books or notes, anyway!) tend to sing with our eyes closed at least part of the time, the answer is to have all your lyrics tattooed on the inside of your eyelids!

Demand that this become available on the NHS (Medicare or whatever) free for all singers of a certain age!

Or use the "Subterranean Homesick Blues" technique - HUGE flash cards!

Or, maybe, just lighten up!

Alan

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Peterr
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 11:00 AM

Steve Parkes - congratulations on being a singer who alcohol intake relaxes to allow words to flow - I hope you're being ironic too? (Tone of voice doesn't come out very well in the written word).
Ok so I can sympathise if the words are needed as a prop in case you forget, but looking at them all the way through the song including the chorus.....?

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: clansfolk
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 11:08 AM

"Ok so I can sympathise if the words are needed as a prop in case you forget, but looking at them all the way through the song including the chorus.....? "

that's VERY kind of you!

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Blackcatter
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 11:20 AM

"Interesting to see the numnber of people here who took his tongue-in-cheek suggestion seriously. It seems it's not just some of the Yanks who have a bit of problem with the irony at times..."

Many of us have seen or heard really negative attitudes during situations like this - that is why we took the post seriously. The open-mic night I'm part of in Orlando works hard to be welcoming to newcomers and new performers precisely because many in the area can be a brutal experience for them.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 11:38 AM

Peterr, I'm afraid I was being ironic. I have a problem (it's a long story) which gives me heartburn if I drink or eat too late in the evening, or if I drink alcohol any time in the evening (it's OK till I lie down).

Steve (very dry)

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Peterr
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 12:13 PM

Sorry if I hit a nerve, clansfolk. It's just that I would never use a book when I'm singing, and in a session will make sure I've got the song. Can't remember what I had for tea last night, though.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Marje
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 01:24 PM

I'm sometimes surprised when a singer forgets the words and then gets so wrapped up in their embarrassment that they don't realise there are others who konw the song and will help them thorough it.

And I agree with the vital point that there's a huge difference between forgetting the words and not attempting to learn them in the first place. Using some sort of crib-sheet as a security blanket, just there if you blank out, is a world away from reading every word from a file and turning the page back to read the chorus every time.

And what difference does it make, some are asking? The difference, in most cases, between an enjoyable and engaging performance and a stilted, boring rendition of a song that seems to mean little or nohting to the singer. You have to sing the song as if it matters, and if you don't appear to know the words at all, the impression you give is that it doesn't matter, which turns many of your audience right off.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 01:32 PM

Thanks Marje - I have been looking for the words to say exactly what you have done. A cyber prompt :0)

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: clansfolk
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:25 PM

"The difference, in most cases, between an enjoyable and engaging performance and a stilted, boring rendition of a song that seems to mean little or nohting to the singer"

"as no-one seems to object to dots, i.e. some-one reading music, so what's the difference - forgetting the words or the music?

Peterr - "Sorry if I hit a nerve"

not really Peterr, I'm happy (and have been for over 40 years) to use aide memoir's when I felt I required them and have no objections (or feel I have the right to have) to Anyone using whatever they require to join in and make music..... Maybe ALL artificial aids could be banned from music etc....   eg glasses (optical) to be handed in at the door, music for orchestras banned - and why a professional like a vicar still reads from the Bible - Heaven only knowns.

Re. Boring renditions.......   One regular at a local club known 2 songs (without need for words or prompts) and sings them week after week - with NO FEELING whatsoever - At least with the aid of a song book we might get some variation! - But He enjoys what he's doing and fee "part" of the group.....

Pete - with no rr's :-)

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 07:42 PM

You know, it realy makes me cringe sometimes. The amount of crap that so called intelligent people spout. Let me put it in a nutshell.

PEOPLE FORGET THINGS.

No more. No Less. No excuses.

If I forget some words I expect to have the piss taken out of me. If someone else forget words I take the piss out of them. If they are so thin skinned that they cannot take it they should not be singing in Folk clubs! Easy. Lighten up. It's a hobby we have. None of our lives rely on us remembering the words to a song that has no relevance to our lives anyway.

Sheesh. Get a life people...

:D

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 09:44 PM

Right on Dave...

um, now what was I going to say....

One point, is that nowadays we are accustomed (by several generations) to RECORDINGS, both visual and aural. When making recordings, there is a pressure to "get it perfect" as the damn thing will hang around forever...

I wonder if this discussion about performing things "to perfection" was so heated in the days before the technology existed. Of course, actors in a play in those days may have said exactly all the things said here about performance.... I doubt that "folk singers" in our ilk existed then...


Lumpy Diaperbrains

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 10:15 PM

I have found it quite useful to have a smattering of several tongues. I actually have, while trying to remember key a phrase, gone to the minor on the guitar, switched to Finn for a verse or two, and then recovered back in English ... explaining with a straight face that anyone can do it all in one language! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM

A local musician (Clem of 16String Jack) uses a music stand with the lyrics on.
Recently he was singing a song without needing the lyrics, but from habit continued to stare fixedly at the empty stand. One of the regulars periodically leaned over and turned the invisible page.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 05:18 AM

You see keith,

It's a form of self hyponsis that puts one onto the correct frame of mind to allow the recall system to work properly. Same with all the "tricks" - including those who seem to have no trick...

Love the page turner's sense of humour though!

Robin

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: old git
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 06:29 AM

hear hear Dave the Gnome!!!!
in defence of Jude's badge......her singarounds are probably the least hostile environment in which a nervous performer can sing....it's relaxed and enjoyable...the piss is taken constantly out of good and bad singers..and everyone has fun....the badge is usually passed on at the request of the singer who has "fluffed" and it is certainly not imposed on any one...in fact it helps to take the embarrassment away.....lighten up LTS!

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: RWJ
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 07:20 AM

If I dont forget the words people wonder whot is wrong

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 08:17 AM

I will carefully remind myself of the words of a song (especially if it's one I've just decided to sing, because prompted by an earlier song or comment) and then, when I come to sing it, fall over on the chorus! (I even managed that with Marcus Turner's Chocolate song in a singaround I was running at Sidmouth..).

We have a really good singer at Herga who always used to sing with the words in front of her. Breezy told her she was good enough to sing without them, and she has been singing at festivals this year (including Warwick, Sidmouth and the Endeavour and Tap and Spile in Whitby) without them.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Singarounds- Forgetting your words
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 08:49 AM

There is nothing worse than forgetting the words to a song, I have a terrible memory when it comes to singing songs, so I take a song book/folder with me to a folk club, And I don't really care what other people think, if it helps me remeber songs then good. I sometimes look at the words and then it all comes back to me. However banging a gong if someone forgets the words to a song is terrible, I mean the person is already nervous and this just embarrasses them even more, and might put them off singing in public for good.
I meand we are supposed to encourage each other instead of humiliate them.
When I forget the words to a song I just stop and then let somelse take over.

Tom