BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?

Subject: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:00 AM

I'm currently reading a novel that relates to the Arthurian legend, shortly after Roman times in Britain. It refers at least twice to "rye spirits", which I take to mean a distilled rye whiskey.

Now, from somewhere in my past reading I had thought that distilling was invented at a later date, maybe 13th century or later, and my impression it was in connection with the wine-to-brandy conversion.

Do any of the well-posted minds here on Mudcat know something about this?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:28 AM

Dunno when Dave. The why and how always puzzles me though. Who discovered that if you boil wine or beer and then collect the steam it gets you smashed? There are loads of others as well. Within the brewing industry. Who discovered that if you dried and ground the swim bladder of a fish (as in Isinglas finings) it make your drink clear? Staying with narcotics. Who first shoved cocaine up their nose?

Doesn't help with your question I'm afraid but it puzzles me no end!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(At least it refreshes :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:39 AM

It may be a lot older than people generally think, if this is accurate (from this site) (see next post - I'm having trouble putting up anything longer than a patragraph or so.)

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:39 AM

The process of distillation (the Latin root of the word refers to dropping or trickling), that is, separating a liquid into components which differ in their boiling points, was discovered long ago.

About 1810 B.C. in Mari, Mesopotamia, (the site of the present city of Tall al-Hariri, Syria), the perfumery of King Zimrilim employed this method to make hundreds of litres of balms, essences and incense from cedar, cyprus, ginger and myrrh every month, using a huge vessel with a lid and a sluice.

Queen Cleopatra knew about distillation, and is thought to have given an account of the process in a text which is now lost.

In the first century it was mentioned by the Greek physician Pedanius Dioscurides (who travelled with the armies of the Roman emperors Nero and Vespasian) and at the turn of the second and third centuries by the Egyptian alchemist Zosimus of Panopolis near Thebes.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:51 AM

Some novelists get their historical facts straight and some don't. What King Arthur story do you have, who is it by, or what's its date.
I'm not going to go to do blind searching through my extensive collection of early King Arthur stories (before 1300 CE), or many reference works on King Arthur searching for 'rye spitits'.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:05 PM

It is interesting how a technique or discovery in one area can lead to further discoveries in another.

I had never thought of that link between perfume and wine. Since perfume, by its very nature is about the smells that eminate from something and tend to eminate a bit more if warmed the distilation isn't far away. If the technique was available wine could be treated likewise.

Did people get seriously into perfume before wine?

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:20 PM

Alambic Distillation is a very old technique, which was, used by the Chinese 3000 years BC, the East Indians 2500 years BC, the Egyptians 2000 years BC, the Greeks1000 years BC, and the Romans 200 years BC. In the beginning, all of the above cultures produced a liquid, later called alcohol by the Arabs, which was used for medicinal purposes and to make perfumes.

By the sixth century AD, the Arabs had started to invade Europe and at the same time released the technique of distillation. Alchemists and monks progressively improved both the technique and the distillation equipment.

In 1250, Arnaud de Villeneuve was the first to distill wines in France; he called the product, which resulted from this process, eau-de-vie or Water Of life. He attributed to it the virtue of prolonging life.


From http://www.essentialspirits.com/history.asp.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:24 PM

Note too the following extolling the benefits of single-malt:

[In his "Chronicles of England, Scotland and Ireland" published in 1577, Raphael Holinshed describes as follows the incomparable virtues of Uisge Beatha :


"Being moderately taken,
it slows the age,
it cuts phlegm,
it lightens the mind,
it quickens the spirit,
it cures the dropsy,
it heals the strangulation,
it pounces the stone,
its repels gravel,
it pulls away ventositie,
it keeps and preserves the head from whirling,
the eyes from dazzling,
the tongue from lisping,
the mouth from snuffling,
the teeth from chattering,
the throat from rattling,
the weasan from stiffing,
the stomach from womblying,
the heart from swelling,
the belly from wincing,
the guts from rumbling,
the hands from shivering,
the sinews from shrinking,
the veins from crumpling,
the bones from aching,
the marrow from soaking,
and truly it is a sovereign liquor
if it be orderly taken."


A remedy definitely miraculous and most indispensable !]

Regards,

A

(bracketed portion from a website on the history of whiskeys).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:46 PM

The other way of "distilling" is to freeze out the water. Mind it's got to be pretty cold for that. Perhaps the craft died out with the end of the ice age.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:53 PM

Here's an interesting DIY site about various ways of distilling, incuding the frezing method.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 12:55 PM

It's clear that I was wrong in my (mis)recollection of the age of distillation, and probably distilled spirits.

I still wonder about the author's reference to "rye spirits", though, which have been mentioned at least twice in the first 90 pages.

GUEST, the novel is Mad Merlin, by J. Robert King, A Tor Book, published by Tom Doherty Associates, LLC, 2000. It's a quirky, somewhat comic novel, in which Merlin, while a genuine magic-making wizard, is either crazy or senile, depending on your take on the tale. The novel is okay, but I'm not jumping up and down with enthusiasm. I'll finish reading it because I bought it (for $2 at a Friends of the Library type book sale).

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 01:05 PM

Nah. Take a stainless steel bowl, dump in the liquor you want to "improve" and chill it to 0 C. Then, while maintaining the 0 C temp, put in slivers of ice. The ice will "attract" the water, seperating it from the alky.

Or, put a barrel of still beer (clarified mash) out of doors when it's below 0 C. and will be for a while. The water will freeze, the alcohol won't (lower freezing point). They used to make applejack that way from fermented cider.

The pot still evolved from the alembic, and the worm still from the pot still (mid-19th C. or so). Around the end of the 19th C. it was found that a second coil would produce a product with higher alky content, in effect giving you "doublings" in a single run (called a "thump keg" in the trade from the sound it makes).

You can also do solar distilling.

Many, many houses, up until the mid-19th C. and later, had a "still room" when a small distillation appartus was used to make medicines and essences for the family.

This is one of those things that you can't put a date to or say "At 7:15 a.m., Monday, June 3, 1254 BCE...." Most of time things just don't work out that way. Also, it's one of those things that might have been thought up at several places at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 02:20 PM

Dave the Gnome's musing about how discoveries get made set me thinking about something that has long intrigued me. When tomatoes were introduced into Europe in the sixteenth century, the universal accepted wisdom was that they were deadly poisonous - which is not surprising, considering the way they look, big and red and shiny.

How did they find out they were good to eat? I think the most likely explanation must have been some unsuccesful Renaissance poisoner. You can imagine it can't you - some pantomime villain character finally succeeds in tricking his unsuspecting ward into eating the first tomato salad. "Too late my proud beauty - you have eaten off the Death Apple." But instead of fading away she licks her lips and asks if there's any chance of a second helping...

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 02:49 PM

Hmmm...tomatoes...

"The earliest mention of the tomato in European literature is found in an herbal written by Matthiolus in 1544 [3]. He described tomatoes, or as they were called in Italy, pomi d'oro (golden apple), and wrote that they were "eaten in Italy with oil, salt and pepper".

The whole website that's taken from is here.

"The bravest man
The world ever saw
Was not a warrior or man of law
But he who first ate an oyster raw."

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 05:26 PM

thanks for the clicky--so THAT's how the bain marie came to be!!

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 05:31 PM

But why? because someone whispered aphrodisiac in his ear? And people still swallow it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 06:18 PM

McGrath of Harlow said:

When tomatoes were introduced into Europe in the sixteenth century, the universal accepted wisdom was that they were deadly poisonous - which is not surprising, considering the way they look, big and red and shiny.

It was more than the appearance. Tomatoes are relatives of belladona, a poison, and I believe some other poisonous plants of that family too. And some people who are sensitive to "the family poisons" of the belladona family can't eat tomatoes. Some people with certain kinds of arthritis get A LOT of relief by avoiding tomatoes, peppers, and certain allied foods.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 07:14 PM

I read in a book by Pierre Berton (one of the medical-detective tomes) about folks who graft tomatoes onto Jimson weed. It can, apparently, make huge tomatoes, but sometimes -- not always -- they can kill you. It's hardly worth it for the braggin' rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:03 PM

They are all members of the nightshade family--as is tobacco.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:37 PM

I am given to understand that among food historians the whole "tomatoes were believed to be poisonous" thing is pretty mythological. There are records of them being eaten quite early on after their introduction - and though related to belladonna they are also related to eggplants - which were old world.

BTW - it is believed that most of the early intorductions of tomato varieties were yellow to orange.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:42 PM

Green, yellow or red, I wouldn't want to be the first to try eating a tomato if I'd never seen one before.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:03 PM

Ive always understood that distillation of alcohol (an Arabic term)
was introduced to Europe by the Arabs, by the 10th century philosopher, chemist, Abn Sina (Avicenna) who is credited with being the first to manufacture rose water.
So its interesting to hear that it was done far earlier, although
it seems it was only used for perfumes and medicines and not for alcoholic drinks. Incidentally, the term brandy comes from Dutch brandy wine
= burned wine.
petr

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:54 PM

GUEST,petr:

I'm glad to hear that my suspicion was not without some corroboration, and that it seems highly unlikely, at least, that "rye spirits" (if that implies a distilled beverage, which I think it does) were around on an everyday basis in fifth or sixth century Britannia.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM

tho' I have seen beer referred to as "barley spirits" - so an equivilant made of rye....

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:27 PM

And remember it's possible to brew beer with an incredibly high alcohol content - stronger than sherry. Tastes pretty horrible ,mind you, at least to my taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:33 PM

World's strongest beer - 24% alcohol, no less...

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:44 PM

June the 7th, 2537BC

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 01:30 AM

I was told that alcohol, like algebra was an Arabic word, and that the arabs invented distillation, making medicinal alcohol. There are other ways of making perfume, besides distilling it. Soaking rose leaves in water and leaving it in the sun will make attar of roses.

My grandfather, who was born in 1880, didn't eat tomatoes, because he was told they were poisonous. The family grew them as an ornamental plant, but they didn't eat them.

My sister and I delighted in a story we read as children in which a man attempts to poison George Washington by slipping tomatoes into his food. Written in the first person, it ends with the narrator saying he can not live with his role as an assasin, and intends to take his own life. We got the impression the story was true. Anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:52 AM

I knew someone once who brewed an orange wine (left lots of pith in), and then freeze distilled the resultant "soup" in his freezer a few times.

Presented it to people, no one could drink it without gagging, but it did have a lot of alcohol. Finally one "martial arts master" was able to not cough, but would not speak for five minutes...

Having been thus inspired, it was then consumed in the "drinking competition" later on - You have to take a belt, then wait five minutes, then hop across the hall and back on one leg to enter the next round...

Later on that night, there were a few people "talking to the trees" outside.

Seems that in those brewing circumstances that you can get cyanide derivatives in the brew...

Me? I wasn't that stupid, not after ONE taste!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: MudGuard
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:09 AM

About the "How came inventions around?"

What was the person trying to do when he/she discovered that you can milk a cow/goat/sheep? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:49 AM

And who was the genius who worked out that pregnancy had something to do with sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:26 AM

Ramblings.

Any kid who's made an ice lolly ought to be able to work out the freezing distillation method. The ice tastes less, the first liquid tastes more.
Are potatoes and tomatoes related? The plants look much the same, and the 'tomatoes' on the potatoes are poisonous, as are the 'potatoes' on the tomato.
My one-time neibour, from Russia, made many wines, all too sweet to my taste. His rose-petal wine took courage to drink, and would have made good perfume. Better perfume than wine, anyway.
Barley wine, which is a British strong ale, is very potent, too. I understand that it is beer that is rebrewed with a champagne yeast, but stand to be corrected on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: MudGuard
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:57 AM

Yes, Gurney, both the potatoe and the tomatoe belong to the group of nightshade plants (Solanaceae).

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,MmARIO
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 09:12 AM

LadyJean - given the number of tomato recipes extant from the late 1700's - including some in Martha Washington's own cookbook - I highly doubt the assasination story is true - unless the assasin was extremely naive

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:07 PM

one thing about distillation, and someone must have found out the hard way is that the initial alcohol that is distilled should be discarded as it is methyl alcohol (wood) and will blind or kill you.

Which Im sure is one of the reasons, distillation of alcohol is still
a govt regulated practice. (along with controlling the money)

despite all the early references to distillation, they all refer to perfumes or medicines, not drinks (that came from the arabs)

I find it interesting the number of ways people have come across fermentation and production of alcohol, ie. the Mongolians have a fermented mares milk, some tribe in South America has this green liquid which is some kind of leaf chewed (repeatedly chewed and spit out by women) whereby the fermentation is a reaction started by the spit?.

of course its easy to see where the first fermentation began, with rotten fruit thats fallen from trees. I saw a wildlife program about some place in Africa where the animals come to eat fallen fermenting fruit - and its hilarious to see drunken monkeys, or even elephants stumbling around.
(anyone whos made wine knows that the yeast is already present on the skin)

I know someone from a Cumberland a small town in BC which has some old orchards nearby and occasionally black bears come by and eat the
fermenting apples, get drunk and can be heard snoring in the woods afterwards.
petr

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:29 PM

I see that the link I gave at 15 Sep 03 - 12:53 PM
to http://www.homedistiller.org/intro.htm no longer works.

Maybe the revenue officers caught up with him... I wanted to check what his advice was about avoiding getting methyl alcohol poisoning. Not that I'm planning to set up a still myself.

I remember when I was working in a lab once we always used to have a still on the go for experiements and parties. Remarkably easy process.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:51 PM

I checked the link, and he does

Removing the Methanol
Be ruthless about tossing the first 50 mL (off a 20L wash) that you collect, as this contains any methanol (causer of hangovers - small quantities, or blindness - larger quantities).
petr.
interesting site though.

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:04 PM

McG - your references have led me to new refinments....THANK YOU.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Historically, when did distilling begin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:39 AM

I see that site - http://www.homedistiller.org/intro.htm is back again - and that it's based in Newealand, where home distilling has been legal since 1996. (And the sky hasn't fallen in!). So I imagine it was just a glitch and there ain't no revenue officers lurking over it.

Here's an interesting book about the whole thing - In Praise of Poten, by John McGuffin, Appletree Press (Belfast) ISBN0-86281-213-5