BS: Elderberries??

Subject: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:52 PM

I've got masses of elderberries in my garden. Any suggestions for how to best use them?

I found this site which seem to be helpful - but I trust advice from Mudcatters more than from strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

my reccomendation? leave them to feed the birds.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 01:58 PM

and the elderberry pie recipe that site gives is liable to give your dentist extra business!

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:01 PM

Elderberry jelly can be great. Depends a lot on who makes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:02 PM

They aren't interested. Not with four cats.

One point - are elderberries in England and North America the same fruit? (I raise that because a lot of times we use the same word to describe totally different things - eg "robin" - and it can get confusing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:14 PM

What about elderberry wine

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:19 PM

The American Elderberry is sambucus canadensis. European elderbery is S. nigra. S. nigra has also become naturalized in the United States. The berries of either species may be used for jellies, jams or wine. Any number of receipes can be found on the web. They taste bad raw, and good cooked. They are also used for dye. Make elderberry fritters by battering and frying the blooms. Elderberry is also used medicinally to reduce fevers and inflamation. Native American's scraped the pith out of American elderberry stems, cut them into short lengths, and then strung them on cords to make teething rings for babies. It is supposed to ease the inflamation and discomfort associated with teething. I don't have firsthand experience with the teething rings, but have used elderberry for all the other applications with good success.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: gnomad
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:26 PM

UK elderberries are fine for winemaking.

Back in the 70's my father produced quantities of good quality red, which could stand alongside many a product of Bordeaux, though not the top rank.

I no longer have his notebooks, but I have the impression that most winemaking books will have at least one recipe.

We did try making jam, but never with any great success, the proportion of seeds to fruit made straining it vital, then you ended with a rather poor-setting jelly, and not a lot for the effort. Damsons were much more rewarding for jam, and pretty good for wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:27 PM

So I take it the American recipes work with the European berries, and vice versa. That's what I wanted to check.

Elder trees have a lot of magical associations. I'd sooner keep on the right side of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM

Be careful, though. There ARE 2 diff. types, one is heavenly for wine and jell, but the other smells 'catty'. Also, when RAW all parts of the elder contain a compund closely related to cyanide. Cooking/heat destroys this compound.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 02:37 PM

Make elderberry jelly. Like a jam but no seeds. Needs pectin (eg Certo) but the result is devine. Use it in apple pies instead of blackberry - just a little post cooking. as a jam with a difference - not too sweet if I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:07 PM

My mom used to talk about her mom's elderberry wine and I think my brother made some one time.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM

There ARE 2 diff. types, one is heavenly for wine and jell, but the other smells 'catty'. Would that be the European and American varieties - and which is which?

Thanks for the word on the cyanide, Sorcha...

"Her mother she could never stand,
sing rickety-tickety-tin,
Her mother she could never stand,
and so a cyanide soup she planned.
Her mother died with the spoon in her hand,
And her face in a hideous grin..."

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:16 PM

And there's elderberry champagne and elderberry cordial ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 03:48 PM

Surely the "champagne" and cordial are from the flowers.

Wines from flowers and berrys are both superb.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

I don't really know, Kevin. I know we have both around here and they look identical. You just have to smell the flowers in June.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:23 PM

As far as I know--they can be used interchangably. I thought it was the Box Elder that smelled "cattie." I think (but am not sure) that the Box Elder is a maple, and is not easily confused with either the American or the European Elderberry.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM

I'm familiar with two types: the purple elderberry which is used for jelly and wine, and the red elderberry, also known as 'stinking elderberry' (True) which is popular with the birds but isn't used in the white culture. It's entirely possible that the Alaskan native culture has found a use for the red. They're way ahead of us in many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

I've never heard that bit about cyanide and I've always just picked the things off the bushes/trees and eaten them. They do look a bit like deadly nightshade (the plant is a lot smaller), but I'd think the nightshade would taste a yucky.

McGrath, I once hitchhiked back from a pub in Bicester and found myself near a massive stand of elderberries. They tasted absolutely the same as the American ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:10 PM

Jeri, do a Google on them. There are documented cases, usually children who like to use the hollow stems for blow guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:41 PM

I Googled. It seems the stems and leaves aren't very healthy, but berries aren't a problem. My father MIGHT have told me this and I forgot because I couldn't envision a situation where I'd feel strangely drawn to munch the leaves and stems.

Chokecherries look a lot like elderberries too.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 05:43 PM

That's reassuring - I've got a bowl of berries in the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:09 PM

The blacker the elderberries are, the better. Chokecherries are ripe when dark red, but not as black as elder.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

Choke Cherry is a true cherry (Rose Family) and has leaves which are easily confused with ornamental (Christmas) holly. Boxelder is Acer negundo, a member of the same genus as true maples. It is a scruffy, moderate-size tree with very soft wood, especially in light of it's relatives. It is utterly worthless for anything, as far as I know, including firewood.The common Elderberry in California is Sambucus glauca, a low-elevation species with lots of berries, and yes, an odd smell when the berries are boiled to make jelly. (sorry, no itallics)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

To make a better set jelly mix the elderberries with crab apple or add lemon juice. The riper they are the more sugar they have, and the more sugar they have, the less likely you are to have a 'set'.

I've got several recipies for wine and jelly/jam if you'd like?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: vectis
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:36 PM

Kevin
Make wine with them. It makes a rich wine that gets smoother and better with age. I had a friend who kept a bottle of mine for 15 years. We drunk it one night in celebration and it was totally wonderful.
Most bottles get drunk before the year is up.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 06:55 PM

In the Pacific Northwest there are two native elderberries (not to be confused with box elder, etc.). Elderberry is in the honeysuckle family--Sambucus callicarpa (red) and Sambucus glauca (blue). It's a mistake to try to make a grab for an elderberry if you happen to slip or fall on a mountainside--they break off. And both plants stink--you'll smell them on your hands for while. Much better to grab for a blueberry or huckleberry--even twigs are strong enough to help catch your balance or break a fall.

Erna Gunther in her timeless little book Ethnobotany of Western Washington: The Knowledge and Use of Indigenous Plants by Native Americans lists both plants on page 47. She discusses many food and medicinal uses. But they are a great berry to leave on the bush--they ferment there and watching birds and bears drunk on this fruit is a real treat if you happen to be out in the woods at this time of the year!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 07:13 PM

Freeze them for 24 hours before using them for wine the extraction rate is so much higher

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 07:43 PM

There's also Sambucus nigra/Sambucus canadensis. See this page.

Paul's Elderberry Page - wine, champagne, jelly, mead port and, erm...fritters are among the recipies
Some recipies, including vinegar, chutney and ketchup.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 08:39 PM

The ones I use for wine/jelly/sirup the flowers smell wonderful. So do the berries when boiling in water for the jelly juice.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 09:12 PM

Oddly enough, I've been starting the first of a few batches of elderberry wine today; had quite a good crop this year, and should get several gallons out of it, though it's only a tiny garden. I take the fruit from the lower part of the trees, and leave the stuff up top for the birds (they won't come any lower because of the cats) which seems fair on the whole. Mind you, I don't have a ladder, so I can't claim any virtue for not taking the lot.

Don't forget to add some pectolase if you make wine. Without it, the whole lot can turn into jelly in the bottle, which is a bit disappointing when you had intended to drink it.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 09:52 PM

Ah Yes. Elderberry wine.
"Dig another lock in the Panama Canal, Brother. We have another fever victim."

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Bert
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:29 PM

My personal experience is that jams and jellies tend to taste a little sweaty but the wine is great.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:45 PM

That "Sambucus nigra/Sambucus canadensis" is actually Sambucus nigra ssp (meaning subspecies) Canadensis. One plant, not two. What is the British plant, McGrath, do you know?

I believe the Brewster Sisters in Arsenic and Old Lace poisoned those lonely old gentlemen with arsenic in their elderberry wine. Must be pretty strong to hide the flavor.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:48 PM

Ah--Sinsull, we think alike. I left my screen up for a while before sending my post and missed yours.

"CHARGE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 03 - 11:55 PM

My jelly isn't sweaty, but the wine can definitely have a laxative effect if you overindulge. I don't heat my wine must at all. Long time ago I made some elder wine and totally forgot about it for about 5-6 yrs. It was in a 5 gallon water jug and the airlock went dry. We moved house, and moved it. Year or so later, I saw it in the basment and decided to dump it. Too large a bottle to tip into the sink, so I started a siphon hose. The instant it hit my mouth, I changed my mind. It had accidentally developed a 'crust' like Amontiadollo ( I didn't spell that right) and was wonderful! It was a beautiful clear brown colour, just like good sherry. We got 15 bottles out of it. Not had the patience to let it do that again, and year old, non-oxidized elder wine is nowhere near as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 01:49 AM

i would recommedn taht the best way to extract juices from fruit
is with a steamer juicer. This works great for grapes-just
pile a bunch in the steamer basket...peels, seeds stems and all
and the juice comes out a spigot when it is done...simple and
good volume too. should work on other berries too.
plus it is a great help when making apple sauce as
i can just quarter and steam the fuits and put them thru a
squisher thing and wal lah! baby food.
dI love the look of elderberrie bushes/plants...
the white cluters of flowers and the purple berries with
sort of a dusty look--powdery sometimes i think.
rarly take to domestication...usually wild.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:32 AM

Things in the world of Botany can be confusing, there are apparently three Elderberries on the Pacific coast, red, black and blue.

My most recent text has the Red Elderberry of the coastal Pacific Northwest, listed as Sambucus racemosa ssp. pubens var. aborescens and the Black Elderberry of the Interior, which sometimes occurs on the coast too, as S. racemosa ssp. pubens var. melanocarpa. Blue Elderberry which is also found on the coast is listed as S. caerulea and has a fleshier blue berry with a whitish blume. Unlike S. racemosa (red and black), whose flower clusters are rounded or pyramid shaped, S. caerulea has flat topped flower clusters.

Red Elderberries are yucky tasting, small and seedy and will cause nausea if eaten raw, although they were was once a very important First Nations foodsource. The fresh leaves, stems, bark and roots contain cyanide producing glycocides.

All of them apparently make excellent jellies and wines, although the berries should be cooked first.

I've never made any jellies or wine with them, because there are so many better tasting berries here. However, I have made Oregon Grape and Salal Berry jelly. Salal berry jelly has a flowery, perfumy fragrance and a sharper flavour like a current jelly.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:55 AM

they seem to be in the composite family
the way the flowers cluster all in a clump like that...
tried to transplant one once..it didn't like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:19 AM

Well I see that Sins and SRS are on the same page as I am........Such nice gentlemen.

Cary at his campy best, but Peter Lorre really steals the show. And surely I am not the only one here to have done this venerable play in the HS/college days???? C'mon now....fess up!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:49 AM

Sambucus is a member of the caprifoliaceae.
The berries, flowers, and medicinal parts of the plant aren't its only uses; it has been used to make wind instruments such as the Fujara and in America these Anasazi Flutes were found. The article says that the flutes are made of Box Elder but this is clearly erroneous from the reference to the soft pith.
Bagpipe Drone and Chanter reeds used to be made of Elder and some people (myself included) are starting to use the material again.
Elder Uillean Pipe Drone Reeds
and another
I shall be harvesting some Elder wood this winter, as the plant is very common here in Manchester on "Brownfield" sites in urban areas.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Tig
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:26 AM

I set a load of elderberry wine going last Saturday with a different recipe I got off the web. I've now got a pound of happy raisins dancing up and down in the bucket!!

Let's hope it's as good as the last lot I made years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 08:41 AM

I think it'd be wine - so any surefire simple recipes? (I know that Paul's Elderberry Page I linked to has one, but it'd be interesting to see variants from Mudcatland.

(One thing I liked in the Paul page was where he has "Primary Fermentation vessel", with a link to a glossary where it gives a definition of the term - "covered bucket".)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: black walnut
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM

We used to get our fingers purple collecting and cleaning elderberries every fall when I was a kid. They always went into the same thing - elderberry apple pie. Now that I'm old and grey, I have a cat, named Elderberry Ninepatch.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:08 PM

A lot of these recipes seem to involve a lot of work, which I'm not keen on. What I do with berries is all kinds is

buy a bottle of gin
put berries in big jars
add a good wodge of sugar
fill with gin
put top on
leave in cupboard
open, pour off liquid drink at christmas

simple, no sterilising, boiling,squeezing steaming filtering or anything. Can be done while waiting for a kettle to boil.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

Metchosin,

I didn't post anything about the red elderberries making you sick because I couldn't find a confirmation of it--but this is what I was told my my Northwest Taxonomy class many years ago. Gunther made no mention.

The elderberry family won't have changed--it's still the caprifoliacea or honeysuckle family. But genus and species do sometimes get changed as research demands more accurate descriptions or sub-groups are identified. The following photos and drawings might help:

The red and blue have clusters of berries. The clusters have different shapes; the blue typically are a glob with a flattened profile on the broadest edge while the red is more of a rounded cluster.

Illustration of red elderberry and illustration of blue elderberry.

Spaw, I borrowed that movie from the library for my kids to watch, wondering if they (at ages 10 and 13) would tolerate a very old movie and one that is in black and white. After only a moment or two of skepticism, they were thoroughly engrossed and we watched it amid gales of laughter. Personally, while I love the Peter Lorrie performance, I always find Raymond Massey to be the most hilarious and over the top--"You look like Boris Karloff!" And that is classic Edward Everett Horton in there as the doctor.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:20 PM

Does it improve the gin?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM

It vastly improves the gin. It turns it from a tedious not very nice tasting colourless alcohol that just gets you drunk into something magically mellow that reminds you of the good weather and fruitfulness of the summer gone, as you snug up by your winter fire. It's like drinking a nice nostalgic happy page of your diary. Now, you couldnt say that about the original bottle of gin, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:36 PM

Why gin? Would vodjka work? Is a 'wodge' one of those UK measurements?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:52 PM

Vodka I'm sure would be fine. I've used gin several times, and also strange, vile tasting and unbelievably potent colourless liquids brought over by Bosnian friends in plastic lemonade bottles. In fact I would reckon vodka would be better, as the taste of the gin is what you are actully eliminating as you use the sugar and berries.
It's getting a a bit past the season for some stuff here in England, but there are still plenty of blackberries, damsons and elderberries in our garden which are ideal for this kind of drink making. I think the best drinks like this are mad in a good sized jar that you keep adding a handful of this and a handful of that to as the season progresses(interestingly the drink progresses from a warm red in early summer, as you start with strawberries, to a deeply satisfying purple as y ou get to blackberries and elderberries). The fruit mix of this all summer process makes a rich and interesting flavour, and improves the feeling of "drinking the summer diary". But one berry drinks are fine. Sloe gin is a classic. I've just made a big batch of damson/blackberry, and will be adding elderberries as well.
    yes, wodge is a highly technical english term, coming after the pinch and spoonful but before the bag and bushel. The wodge is similar (or a tad smaller) to the "standard British handful" but that is used to measure something quite different from berries.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:16 PM

The only problem with leaving the berries for the birds is purple bird shit all over your car/caravan and EVERYTHING else. And I Do speak ftom personal experience.Elderberry wine for me every time .

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:21 PM

Greg don't use the elderberries from the tree between the Red Lion and the canal in Stratford on Avon (it absolutly stinks of cat piss in late May)

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:47 PM

OK, wine.
Get about 5 lbs of elderberry clusters. Wash as well as you can, picking off the 'wild protein'. Don't bother to pick the berries off the stems. Do pick out the green leaves.Put the berries in a wide top crock. Smoosh up with hands (or feet......)Pour about 3 gallons of boiling water over the crushed berries. Cover with a towel and steep 4 days. Then strain out the big stuff like stems and put the juice through a sieve to get the little stuff out. Put juice back in crock and add 2 US pounds of sugar for each gallon of strained juice. Toss in 2 oz of yeast. Wine yeast is best but plain bread yeast will work too. Cover with towel. If crock is near full set it in a sink or tub because it's going to bubble and foam like crazy.

Leave this 8-10 days covered with towel. Strain through a cloth and leave the worst of the sludge/sediment behind. Place in a gallon jar/demijohn and put an airlock on it. If you don't know 'airlock', PM me. Set in kinda warm but not hot place in the dark if possible. Check it in about 2 weeks. If there is a lot of sludge on the bottom, siphon it off. Keep doing this until there is virtually no sludge and NO BUBBLES. Bottle.

As I said above, if you can get it to oxidize by contact with air, it MIGHT turn to a sweet/sack type Sherry.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:50 PM

Oh, forgot to mention, if the gallon jar/demijohn isn't full, top it up with cool water. You can top up with water each time you siphon, but you don't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 06:12 PM

Thanks Greg. ('Vodjka'?! What was I thinkin'?)
I had a walk around back. There are some unripe berries (approximately 30) on the bushes. It looks like the birds have been busy. If I can't come up with more than a wodge of berries, I may have to use just a smidgen of gin. (Smid-gin?) Or I could give up altogether.

On the other hand, I bought some Blue Moon Pumpkin Ale today on the advice of the guy who was behind me in the checkout line yesterday. Absolutely wonderful stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 05:31 AM

I make a lemon Vodka in a similar way.
Put the zest of a lemon in a bottle of vodka and leave for 20min. Jobs a good'n.
Tastes great and keeps its flavour well.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 03:56 PM

I am rather interested in the foul smelling and sweet smelling version issues. In collecting from our garden for elderflower recipes, I have noticed that the same tree can have clusters of flowers with different smell - the newly burst smell attractive, the older don't. I have assumed that there was a pollination signal involved. It never occurred to me that the berries could be different, anyway. I thought it was just the flowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:05 PM

OK, not one to miss the chance to beat a dead horse, I just got my
copy of Jepson out of storage. Revised ed. 1993 by Hickman. It
shows that Sambucus glauca in now Sambucus mexicana. The
latter name having priority by publication date. This is the "Blue
Elderberry" found at lower elevations across the Western U.S.
White powdery covering on the berries is "glaucous" from which
the specific epithet "glauca" was derived. Sambucus melanocarpa
is much less common and grows in low clumps of three to six feet.
Sambucus racemosa is widespread and quite variable, with both
coastal and alpine varieties, and is likely the common species in
British Columbia. S. racemosa grows into large clumps but not as
large as S. mexicana, which can grow to over 15 feet in optimum
conditions. S. racemosa often produces fruit that is bright red.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:09 PM

Anyone know whether witches insist on having the right sort of elder tree to sleep in?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:15 PM

LOL, Kevin. They should be very light weight witches as elder in very brittle.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:11 PM

Elders are sovereign against witches (and cats, apparently) where I live, which is why I always have to let the buggers in through the back door. The witches, anyway. The cat still just about fits through the cat flap.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Bert
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:24 PM

Ex wife's Mum wanted to make elderflower wine and she bugged us for some time to go and pick some for her. We brought home this huge bag and she left it in the kitchen ready to work on it the next day.

The next morning she went into the kitchen and the ceiling and walls were covered with black tiny little flies. She never asked again.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:33 PM

Oh, but I made some Elderblow (flower) wine once and it is marvy! Also, elder flowers are great for adding depth to other wines. But, elder clusters are prone to 'buggies'.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:05 PM

I had elder cider in sweden .
both soft drink variety and
hard cider. The "soft" is called
fläderblom. The label claims
it to be "extra fin alkoholfri
cider" on the soft drink bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 12:18 AM

PDQ, that's why I said Botany can be confusing, but probably I should have said Taxonomy or more aptly Taxonomists are confusing. These guys will be arguing over whether something is more appropriately, a species, a subspecies, or a variety for the next hundred years or more. Info I have on BC (sp./spp./var.) is from Pojar and Mackinnon(1994) although when I was in the thick of it, one didn't dare put a species name to anything unless one used Hitchcock and Cronquist as a reference.

The very fact that I'm continuing to flog a dead horse as well, is probably because I spent far too many years up to my armpits in taxonomic nitpicking and its a very hard habit to break.*BG*

When all's said and done, there are red ones, blue ones and black ones. The red ones on Vancouver Island taste like shit, the blue ones here aren't as bad and I've not come across any black ones to form an opinion.

Oregon-grape (tall or dull) and salal berries taste like shit too, but like all colours of elderberries they make very fine jellies and wines.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 12:33 PM

I have Hitchcock! The Big Blue Book! Cost a small fortune when I was in my undergraduate Western Washington taxonomy class. I didn't get it out in this instance, because I thought Gunther covered the elderberry question very well (I knew it was in her book).

There are some tall Oregon grape (berberus family) that grow down here in Texas, in shade, and are such a wonderful reminder of home. So many Northwestern understory plants wouldn't consider trying to grown down here. I'm working on getting enough shade established with the trees I'm planting so I can put in some Oregon grape.

One of these days I'm going to explore what the local "blueberry" is. It doesn't look at all like the Vaccinium ovatum I grew up with, it has large leaves, grows in an entirely different habit, but they taste pretty good. I may plant some to feed my muffin habit. (Best impromptu batch of muffins I ever baked was for a July 4th party in the North Cascades National Park, where I was working. I lived in Diablo, where I walked out the back door and up a path on Sourdough Mountain to find a red huckleberry bush and a blueberry bush and baked red white and blue muffins).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:06 PM

The thread title is "Elderberries" which implies no particular restrictions. Besides, everyone is learning a bit.

Metchosin- Biologists are just people. Do we really expect more than two of them to agree on anything? Nobody else seems to! Mainly I wanted to correct the statement about Sambucus glauca, the only species I have (helped) make jelly from. That name is no longer (officially) used. Er, 'til the next revision???

SRS- What part of Texas? I was going to move to San Antonio years ago. Glad I did not. A native Elm is found down there which has thick, cork-like bark. There is also a Hackberry. Both of theses species may make good shade trees and grow reasonably fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 03:46 PM

Fort Worth. I have hackberries out the wazzoo, it isn't something I would plant voluntarily (I do plan to plant a mesquite out in the front yard, though--I have a "desert" corner I'm working on). Elm is in the Oak family, it's a sub group (Oak is a really big rather interesting family--but that is according to some elderly tree taxonomy books). Beech is also in there, I think. Anyway.

Blueberries are grown commercially down in the plains around Houston. But I have known several people in Central Texas who have batches of shrubs in their yards and they seem to grow fine. I haven't gone looking for any, but someplace like Weston Gardens in Bloom might have them. I found a Texas Blueberry site at Texas A&M. Says they need acid soil. That's in keeping with the Northwestern population. Those evergreen forests have acid soil. I'd have to do some good bed preparation here, but I could manage it with compost and with pine needles, etc.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 03:48 PM

Oh--hackberry is also in the oak family. That's why I said it's a big diverse family.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,jennifer
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

Re: Winemaking. This year I have decided to give up on this "pour x gallons boiling water over berries". Why do recipes stipulate this? Surely it isn't part of "proper" wine making, they just crush 'em. I have just started plum, redcurrant and elderberry with PURE JUICE plus sugar to make up the specific gravity - we will see how they come out... We once made three batches of plum wine from a particularly prolific tree, and the more fruit/less water we used the better the wine was, so I'm taking it to its logical conclusion!
Re: Straining. I have also swiftly developed a method of straining where I put my two layer steamer together with a nylon straining bag lining the second layer. It's much faster and cleaner than ladling the whole lot into a bag.
Re: Catty smell. My mother always used to say that you shouldn't gather elderberries where the dogs could pee on the bushes because it would taint them. Sounds like another explanation for the same effect, this year was the first time I heard the "two sorts" theory. Mind you, HER mother used to swear they were deadly poisonous, which is odd considering she was Land Girl.

Jennifer

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: open mike
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:41 PM

speaking of Hackberries...the Hackberry Ramblers are
featured in teh latest Dirty Linen magazine.
they say they are too old to retire now..

and speaking of cork, there has been a tragic
infection of some sort in Portugal which has
dedcimated the cork oak trees (Quercus) and
so wine bottling is often done now with
artificial corks-plastic ones which seem to be
made from recycled platic of some sort.
perhaps they are molded out of shredded
soft drink bottles.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 05:02 PM

Is Jim Smoak still with them? Also, is the thread about Larry McNeely going to languish without a single statement concerning his whereabouts??? Aah, thread drift at its best.

re-elderberry odor: That would have to be a tall dog or a short elderberry bush!

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,jk
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 11:30 AM

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but while we are talking about berries, I was wondering if anybody had grown cranberries ?

I live in a hot, dry climate ( like Las Vegas ) and I think it would be impossible here . Am I right ?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 02:39 PM

A man I once worked for said "the impossible just takes longer". Star by filling you swimming pool with peat moss, then........

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 12:25 PM

I came across this on this website Pacific Northwest Native Wildlife Gardening : "My 90 yr.
old mother has an apron on which is stamped "Elderberries have more fun than Youngerberries"."

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,vectis
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 07:08 PM

Down here in southern England tradition has it that fairies live in elder trees. If you want to prune them you must ask the fairies 3 times if it is OK to take the saw to the tree. If you don't...
I dunno what happens
I always ask
strange innit??

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 11:02 PM

I must confess that I've found this to be wonderfully juicy thread! And now this--asking the fairies permission to prune. But what if they tell you "no?" How would you know?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 11:48 PM

Elderberry is a delight for the spring
and refreshment in the fall.

ELDERFLOWER MEAD

4 lb honey
1/4 oz citric acid
1/2 pint strong freshly-made tea
1 pint elderflowers . yeast . nutrient

No extra water is needed in this recipe as the flowers occupy so klittle space.

Mis hone withy about half a gallon of hot water, bring slowly to the boil and boil for two minutes.

Turn into galss crock containing flowers.

Add Citric acid and tea and make up to one gallon with boilwater. ASllow mixture to cool fo 65f. and add yeast and nutrient.

Ferment 5-6 days...Sgtrain out flower heads and return strained liquor to fermenting vessel. Ferment five more, strain and ferment again for up tio several months. It should be bunged down for one year, after which it may be bottled.

Home Brewing Without Failures How To Make Your Own Beer, Ale, Stout and Cider by H.E. Bravery, Gramercy Publishing Company, New York, 1965, p. 137-139.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 12:42 AM

We don't really have 'trees' here, just large fragile shrubs, so they usually don't get pruned, just plucked. Should I ask the Fairies permission for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM

Richard Mabey - Food for Free- gives a number of uses for the flowers and the berries, doesn't mention odour, except of the young leaves, and doesn't mention poison. Geoffrey Grigson - The Englishman's Flora- includes customs and beliefs, and mentions the tree's stink. Leaves again. Not the flowers.

I rinse them to get rid of the bugs, and also look out for the white spiders which match the flower colour.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:58 PM

When seeking permission to cut an elder you don't need a reply from the faeries, to ask is sufficient. Exactly the same as saying 'Good Morning Mr. Magpie' to any pica pica you come across--they don't have the human quirk of knowing what sex they are and as long as you say hello they're happy and won't screw up your day.

Metchosin, I have a gallon of wine fermenting as we speak; berries gleaned two weeks ago from a black elderberry bush in Victoria.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 10:34 PM

Very nice, and makes perfect sense! Did you stumble upon the elderberries when out stalking the mushsrooms? Perhaps the bush is on the outskirts of town?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 01:11 PM

Three trips into the bush already this year and found my way home no problem without the use of either GPS or compass! Elderberry bush is smack in the middle of the city. I suspect it came from England with the early settlers--Victoria is known as 'The Garden City' and is full of exotics from the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 12:32 PM

I know what you mean, though "exotic" and "British Isles" sound slightly oxymoronic. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:15 PM

Anybody know whether elderberry comes in male and female plants? I have a large elderberry bush in my backyard, and it looks very healthy, and it flowers nicely in the spring, but the berries it produces are very sparse. Could that mean the flowers aren't getting pollinated?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:29 PM

I think they're monoesious (I learned it "monesious" but the spelling is an alternate one, apparently, and doesn't get any Google hits). Sounds like you need to attract some pollinators. If you have any berries at all, then it is at least a female plant, but I think the honeysuckle family is all with the male and female flowers together on one plant.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 06:03 PM

That was me, sans cookie, who asked about genders of elderberries. There are lots of other flowers in the garden that attract bees, butterflies, and other insects. Not that it matters much; I would probably just leave the berries for the birds anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 07:55 PM

Maybe the plant is sick--are it's feet too wet? Not we enough? Does it get too much or too little sun? Does it need more acidic soil, or mulch?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM

Or perhaps it's the fairies or the witches...

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:45 PM

I have several elderberry bushes that are planted too close to the house. they are taking over the place. can they be transplanted without killing them? i would like to put them out away from the house where the birds can get to them.
thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM

Elderberries can be transplanted with 'medium' success. If they survive the transplant shock, they will quickly thrive. If you are moving a bunch of them and they are not too large, chances are good at least half of them will survive. Be sure they are sited appropriately (they like moist, well-drained soil), and prepare the site well. Dig up as much of the root=ball as you possibly can. Keep them well-watered until established. As insurance, you may want to consider rooting some semi-soft cuttings in pots to plant out in spring. I don't know where you live, but if you are in the northern hemisphere, it is probably too late to root semi-soft cuttings for this year, and you should probaby wait until late winter to dig and transplant.

Good luck.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:43 AM

Guest Jennifer, et al, I have a native elderberry bush (tree) growing on my place but it's half covered in poison oak. I was minded one year to make an elderberry wine and so I carefully began picking the tiny berries the biggest of which was just under 1/4 of an inch and they all had a large seed in the center. For jams and jellies I assume that you boil and strain the seeds out. As for making wine, fruit wines in particular many recipies call for boiling water to be added to the must. This somewhat kills off unwanted natural yeasts and bacteria, breaks down tough skins and releases the sugar into solution where the yeast can get at it quickly. You, of course add the yeast after it has cooled to a acceptable temperature. However there are some fruits, plums for instance, that are robbed of flavors by adding boiling water. Back to MY elderberry experience. I gave up. There are too many other good fruit wines to be made without all the touble.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:47 PM

Slag
Never mind picking individual elderberries!
Just treat them as you would black/red/whitecurrants and pull the stems through a dining fork to release the berries.
Never mind the odd but of stem, that will be removed in the straining.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 03:21 PM

Can I start plants from seeds of the berries?
If I were to propogate from stems, do you know how much of a stem I can use for this? I have rooting hormone and can start inside for the winter and move them back out in the spring.
I planned to cut these bushes back after the frost and dig out as much root as i can to move them.
Thanks for the advice!!

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Janie
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 04:07 PM

Guest,

You could try both, but stem-cttings are probably the best option. Elderberry cuttings root best from softwood cuttings in spring, but you can also try hardwood or semi-hard cuttings from current year growth taken in late fall.

Check your gardening books or search Google for detailed instructions, but generally you want short pieces of stem from current year's growth. Fill a pot with your rooting medium (no potting soil or dirt, please), poke a hole in the medium with a pencil, dip the end of the cutting in rooting hormone, put it in the hole, press gently to firm the rooting medium around the cutting, and then wait and see what happens. You want to pre-poke the hole so that the rooting hormone doesn't get scraped off of the node when you plant it.

In the FWIW department, I generally use vermiculite as the rooting medium when I propagate cuttings from trees or shrubs. If you cut the bottom off of a 1 liter soda bottle it makes a great cloche that fits perfectly on a round 1 quart pot. The narrow neck opening usually allows just the right amount of ventilation.

Good luck! Let us know how well they rooted.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 04:29 PM

The elderberries are almost ripe here! Not much longer and we'll be making jelly!

:) Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM

Across the road from me is a large area of open ground referred to locally as "The Meadows". A few years ago I came across a curious small 'shrine' built in an elder bush. This 'shrine' was decorated with bits of tinsel, pebbles, bits of plastic etc. I observed this shrine over several years (from a respectful distance) and various 'votive offerings' disappeared and others appeared in their place. The whole thing had a curiously naive feel to it - as though constructed by a child (although I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was the knowing creation of one of our local 'arty types' - of which we appear to have thousands - I suppose it's better that anti-social yobs!).
Eventually the shrine was discovered by a columnist on our local paper. He proceeded to publicise it and it disappeared - shame!
I thought that only I, and the shrine-builder, went sneaking around "The Meadows". My motive is botany, the shrine-builders is obviously ... well, shrine- building - I wonder what excuse the columnist has?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:38 PM

i cut four small branches with new growth but no flowers/berries and put them in vermeculite with rooting hormone on saturday. they look pretty unhappy, but they aren't totally dead yet. if they root, i'll let you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:13 AM

But always remember that the Elder Berrys are Len and Barbara (The Portway Pedlars) - The Younger Berrys are Bob and Gil of Chippenham Festival !

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:13 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:19 AM

Do the Berrys get a telegram from Liz Windsor now?

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: Becca72
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM

"Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

Now I get it! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Elderberries??
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM

Hi guest--did you moisten the vermiculite?