BS: Who are the Welsh?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: AliUK
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:55 PM

which doesn´t seem to be working...so go to www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/peoples_01.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: AliUK
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:53 PM

Ok...here´s a BBC site that explains better what I was trying to say.BBC Pre- history

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:19 PM

Going back as far as Julius Caesar and Tacitus, it was noted that many of the inhabitants of the Western parts of Britain resembled the peoples of Spain (or Hispania, as it was then. Remember that this is before waves of Vandals and Berbers overran the country). The inhabitants of the east and south of Britain were big, red-haired people who resembled the Belgae from what is present day Belgium.

Although it is difficult to trace exact movements of populations during the "Dark Ages" after the fall of Rome, there appears to have been some inter-migration between Wales, Cornwall and Brittany, which explains why Welsh and Breton (and the extinct but reviving Cornish) languages have much in common. Likewise there was migration from Ireland to Scotland, which explains why Erse and Gaelic are similar.

Contrary to what AliUK and Bert have suggested above, that the UK is quite a melting pot for DNA, there is evidence that invading cultures (Anglo-Saxon, Viking) displaced the local population rather than intermingled. Here is a link to the BBC programme, Blood of the Vikings, which suggests that this was the case with the Vikings.

There is much resistance amoung people of non-British culture who have emigrated to the UK (I am thinking mainly of Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani people here), to losing any of their own cultural integrity. Thisk makes makes marriage between them and "native" Brits uncommon, at the moment anyway. This may well have been the case with mass immigrations in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 02:19 PM

Bert - I agree, and did you ever notice how many people will tell stories of their Ukranian grannys or Italian cousins? I think that migrants have been dribbling into Britain for so long there is no one kind of people there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:30 AM

AliUk, are there such beasts as white non negroid, non-asian british?

What with British excursions around the world in the time of the Empire and the complete absorbtion of the black population after slavery was abolished then the new influxes from the remnants of the empire.

Your average Brit is probably as genetically mixed as is the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: AliUK
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 11:18 PM

To my dismay, I was reading an article about the origins of the british today and found that CELT is actually an 18th century invention, genetically the british population has not changed ( and by this I mean the white non negroid, non-asian british) substantially since about 3,000 b.c. Infact we Brits tend to just take onb the identity and customs of whatever small force happens to bump into the British Isles from time to time, that the anciant britons had no genetic connection with the mainland gauls but yes took up their customs which were then handily adapted by the locals. So to say that the Welsh and Irish are celts would be wrong, the only real celts are bloody french!!

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: okthen
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 08:32 AM

Can we look forward to a Welsh seperatist group?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: JJ
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 08:13 AM

I thought the Welsh were the Lost Tribe of Simeon.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:17 PM

There's certainly evidence that (part of) the literary tradition came from the North Britons, but none of mass migration. Which there is in Brittany. If the genetic traces point to a basque-ish origin, this does imply a long-lasting population. The Beaker people? This reminds me of the recent DNA match between prehistoric man in Somerset and a current inhabitant. (Though none of the people I knew in Bristol would have been in the least surprised at that.)

It has long been argued whether the Celts were a population movement or a cultural one: it seems that in Wales it was mainly cultural, whatever it was in the rest of the country. The Cornish and Breton DNA evidence might add more to this - shame no-one seems to have seen this.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:45 PM

In Basque pubs, they all speak Spanish, until a Spaniard comes in, and then they glare at him and start muttering in Basque. You see? Genetics detrmine everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:41 PM

So how come they don't speak a language even remotely similar to Basque? And why don't they Pelota?

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:39 PM

as I understand it - the celts were themselves "invaders" - as they migrated west across Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:35 PM

Well nobody knows just how many Britons popped over to Brittany to escape the Anglo-Saxons. Might have just been a few important ones(with bigger swords than the natives)...enough to import their language, but not enough to make much genetic impact. then again, one theory is that the Welsh actually moved down from scotland into Wales(squeezed by the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons from the south andthe Scots from Ireland who all arrived simulatneously in a rather anti-social fashion. I believe there is a lot of literary eveidence to support this view.
    Gentics in Wales is bound to be a bit confusing anyway, due to the practise of interbreeding with animals.

Subject: BS: Who are the Welsh?
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:29 PM

Not being rude: at least not yet.

Recent DNA research has shown that the closest relatives to the Welsh are not the Scots and Irish but the Basques. What I missed was the relationship to the Bretons/Cornish.

For as the Bretons are the descendants of Britons who fled from the Anglo-Saxons, if they are not Basque-linked then we must conclude that "England" was a separate society from "Wales" before the Romans ever turned up. The entire myth of the Welsh as the last survivors of the true Celtic people of (the southern bit of) this island is hogwash. Romantic but wrong, as "1066 And All That" said about something else altogether.

Did anyone catch the full story?

Given the mutual joy of the Welsh and English in taking the p**s out of each other, I look forward to the response.