BS: political correctness

Subject: BS: political correctness
From: early
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:34 AM

political correctness is starting to really undermine individuality and freedom of speech. Also stops us all speaking plainly in case we upset someone or some religious faction or cult. Is the time for political correctness past?
The silent majority are being kept that way by political correctness and I think its time we called a spade a spade again.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:41 AM

There is a line between political correctness and rudeness, and that line is best defined by the subject/object of the comment. Say whatever you like, but don't be surprised if someone objects and defines you as rude rather than straight-spoken.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:47 AM

Yes, but sometimes it's just plain fun to offend.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:51 AM

Let me re-state that.

To that ones that find so much to be rude and/or politically incorrect, these are the ones who are the subjects of curmudgeonry.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 12:09 PM

If someone makes a comment that offends me, but was not intended to offend, it is up to me to let them know about the offense. If I do and the comments do not stop, then I have a problem with it. I firmly believe in the "no harm (meaning no intent), no foul" policy. I totally agree with early that political correctness undermines individuality. I would rather my kids learn that kids of a different color/religion/sex etc. are good people who can have differnces of opinion than to teach my kids that everyone of a different color/religion/sex than who is probably sensitive to that fact and you should be careful around them. How many really good friendships in your life started off like that?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: TIA
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 12:37 PM

We would be remiss (and jerks) as parents if we did not teach our children that certain words and phrases are almost guaranteed to be offensive to certain peoples. Better that they learn these words ahead of time than to innocently (or not) use such words and be told - hopefully with words, not fists (or knives or worse) - that they have just given offense. Is this being careful around certain peoples or simply polite?

If I know that Joan can't stand being called Joanie, or Jones, or the Joanalator, am I succumbing to political correctness by calling her Joan?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 12:55 PM

I get really pissed off with people,using the words "political correctness" to get people confused about straigtforward ideas like, you don't use words that put people down, and you try to be sensitive about not using words that offend them. (Unless they need offending.)

Most times I've heard people on about "political correctness" it's not actually been from anyone who is are urging people to mind their language. In fact I don't thinkm I've ever heard it used that way.

Where I have heard it used time and time again is as a way of implying that the very suggestion that it is possible to hurt people by the language we use must clearly be nonsensical.

Obviously it's easy to go over the top about these things, but I have a very strong suyspicion that many of the examples of "political correctness gone mad" are urban lengends, circulated by people with a political agenda of their own.

I think the whoel expression shoudl be dumped. - it doesn't add anything meaningful to the subject.

Or perhaps it could be redeployed. Political correctness , for example, would be when, instead of saying that a politician is well intentioned but mistaken, we say that he is a self-satisfied and self-serving liar. (Insert the name of your politician of choice.)

Here's a song I wrote about all this a few years ago and posted on the Cat - Poison in Jest

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 12:57 PM

early - Be forewarned, the same politically correct people you talk about will destroy this thread and any other like it by intentionally misunderstanding what you said. Maybe we need a new word like "disunderstanding".

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Steve-o
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:44 PM

Early, you are so right. Americans, as we typically do, have taken what was essentially a good idea and overdone and corrupted it to the point of ridiculousness. We've now developed a large group of folks who whine about anybody calling anybody anything, whereas the original intent was to end truly offensive ethnic/racial/sexual slurs. This has become true BS, and we should not get sucked into that whole game- when we hear idiocy we should speak out against it. We're becoming a nation of wimpy complainers. And I agree with Martin Gibson....sometimes it's just plain fun to offend them thin-skinned bozos.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:55 PM

"We're becoming a nation of wimpy complainers" he complained...

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 02:24 PM

Comedian Penn Gillette once commented that there are those who could find something to be offended at by walking through the debris after an explosion in a Scrabble tile factory.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 02:57 PM

Trying to speak carefully can be taken to extremes, and sometimes it is. But it's been my experience that those who frequently complain about "political correctness" are generally looking for validation for their own habit of making hateful, ignorant and rude comments.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:07 PM

I really hate the term, "if you haven't got anything good to say, don't say it." Why keep your feelings all bottled up?

If it offends, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM

AS with most things there is a sane and balanced degree -- courteous and decent -- and there is the insane exaggerated over-condensed version of the same thing. For example, most people who are old have had plenty of time to get used to the idea and it is patently ridiculous that they should be called "chronologically advantaged citizens" instead of old people. And personally, I feel that if someone is being bitchy, it makes them fair ground to say so.   

The problem with bending too far to avoid offense is that it encourages those who are over-anxious to take offense and who should never be encouraged, since they are overdoing it in the first place because they need to get a life.

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:27 PM

Are people who say the overused expression "get a life" easily offended?

Do people who tell me to "have a nice day" have the right to tell me what kind of day to have?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:56 PM

I've always rather liked the rule that you should never offend anyone unintentionally. Where's the fun in doing that? Save it up for the people who deserve to be offended.

"Chronically advantaged citizens" for "old" is the kind of thing I meant when I referred to "urban legends", which never actually occurred.

True enough you might come across an expression such as "senior citizens" - but when you check up on that, you normally find that it refers to people over the age of 50 or so, which, while including people who are old, includes a lot of people who are not.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:58 PM

Well said, Nicole!

I still like Rick Fielding's term ethically conscious. And, I still say anyone who calls my five year old grandsons "nigger" or any other racial slur can rationalise it any way they want, it is still harmful and will bring down my EC wrath about your head and shoulders!

If anyone is interested in the thread in which Rick came up with that, look for an old one with "and proud of it" in the thread title. Through it and subsequent discussions, I think many of us have come to more understanding and are less likely to label ourselves or others with either "PC" or "non-PC."

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:02 PM

MArtin:

I used the expression "get a life". I am not easily offended -- at least, on most topics! :>) I use it as a shorthand to describe a healthy engagement in which one has plenty of his or her own work, own exchanges, and own loves to be proud of, andis thusa less predisposed to whining.

When you are taking care of your own life, living up to your own responsibilities, looking out for your own future, you are also usually much too busy to invest a lot of time in being offended.   Don't you think?

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Steve-o
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:31 PM

Amos, I think Martin is playing you (and me) in a friendly game of "baiting"- and you took the hook.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:35 PM

How constructive!


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:41 PM

Amos, nah, sometimes the people you described are the most easily offended.

And yes, Steve-O, it can be fun.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:45 PM

"...it can be fun." So can making faces at yourself in a mirror and seeing if you can scare yourself, or trying to touch the end of your nose with the tip of your tongue. Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 05:24 PM

McGrath, those things are no where near as fun as calling someone a douche bag.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 05:45 PM

Hmmmmm, yesssss.... well,:

"Thoughtful."

"Thought-full."

In other words, Thinking While Speaking. Flexibly. With as much information as I have up to that point, about everything there is to know. Knowing more as I get older. Getting wiser as I know more.

Anyway, that's what I aim for. And trying not to assume what someone else is aiming for, or why, or how much they know-- I aim for that, too.

And then------ then.... THEN (big drum roll buildup) (deep breath)--- (said slowly and pointedly) I try to remember... that I'm only responsible for me,... now that my kids are grown,... and that others... are responsible for themselves..., no matter how hard they may seem to be trying to push off their responsilities into me. (No REMORAs wanted.) (Or tolerated.) (Git!!!)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 05:51 PM

Wow, that was really high drama!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 07:46 PM

Sure they are. Martin. You can't have been trying hard enough, that's all.

Every Shark needs its Remoras, WYSIWYG. It's just that you aren't a shark.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 08:23 PM

Guest/Martin Gibson, if you don't want to be wished a good day, remind me never to tell you 'Goodbye'. Or good night, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Burke
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 08:41 PM

early,
Welcome to the 'Cat.

I was just wondering if you've had some personal experience of 'PC' that's giving rise to your complaint?

If you're thinking in general of what you hear in the news, well a lot of times there is more to the story.

I don't like it when real concerns are put down as somehow trivial because they are 'PC.'

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: early
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 09:23 PM

i was just thinking, that most decent, reasonably educated people, are more than able to treat everyone else fairly and for those that don't fit that bill political correctness isn't going to
make any difference.PC is just another example of the social police shoving their ideals down everyone else'e throats and disregarding the silent majorities way of life and ideals. Sooner or later there will be a backlash as often happens and the tide will turn too far the other way - could this explain the rise of the BNP locally?
It's just exchanging one form of bigotry with another

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,shadygrove
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:54 PM

These days, a 'politically incorrect' comment can spell the end of a career and sometimes the tarnishing of someone's reputation. It's become frighteningly easy for one person's accusation to convict someone in the court of public opinion at least, as a bigot. Since bigots and racists are now deemed the lowest form of life other than pedophiles, it should not be so easy to label someone based on a careless word, or even a malicious word.
And here in the United States we do have the First Amendment to the Constitution; or do we, if PC codes trump the right to free speech?
Another injustice of PC is that what is designated offensive is often strictly arbitrary, subjectively based on what the hearer or reader pronounces as offensive. IMHO it's inherently unjust to have a category of offense which is arbitrary; how can we know not to infringe on the rules if the rules are not clear and specific? Obviously we all know not to use the 'N-word', but the rest of the terminology is constantly changing. I recently heard that the word 'Hispanic' is considered offensive among some. What next?
Being racially-mixed (half American Indian and half white) I find Political Correctness divisive and oppressive; simple civility and manners should be enough for everyone. It shouldn't be necessary to have everybody walking on eggshells, especially in a country where our free speech is guaranteed.
Just my two cents...

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM

simple civility and manners should be enough for everyone if only we had that for everyone. Unfortunately we do not. There are lots of people who use the "N" word without another thought, as well as other racial slurs such as "ragheads" in the recent Military Conquest in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:49 AM

The vast majority of people I have observed using the word "nigger" are rappers or rapper-wannabes, most of whom are black. I've never heard an Amerindian use the phrase "Native American" to describe themselves; most I know prefer "Indian" because it's concise. While I agree that racial slurs shouldn't be used, we as a society take the definition of slur too far to have meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:51 AM

Just because I (for example) refuse to allow those comments in my home in the name of politeness doesn't mean they can't be said. You don't have to go far to find hate speech and bigotry protected by the 1st Amendment. Never fear, racial and ethnic slurs are safety protected where they should be if you are wistful for them.

Political free speech is in a lot more danger.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: LadyJean
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:18 AM

Pollack was a perfectly respectable word for Polish people, until the pollack joke was invented. Like most ethnic jokes they are dumb and innaccurate. There are a lot of Polish Americans here in Pittsburgh. They are not unintelligent, and they are the CLEANEST people you will ever meet. They make Germans look like slobs!
I had a housemate from Newfoundland for several years. I met a lot of Canadians who told Newfy jokes. I learned, quickly, that Canadians who told Newfy jokes really believed Newfoundlanders were dumb, lazy, dirty, drunks.
So, now I don't tell ethnic jokes, even if they're funny. I know a great joke that was, originally, about two Newfounlanders on a fishing trip. It's even funnier if you tell it about George and Jeb Bush. So, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:59 AM

The term "political correctness" is too often used as a sneer by some cretin who doesn't like the politics or opinions of others.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:38 AM

I think the difficult thing for a lot of people is just keeping track of whatthe present so-called politically correct term is, so that they know what to use to describe a group of people. If you don't come across this sort of thing in your working life (in reports or papers or whatever).
EG for a long time, black people were referred to as coloured - and this was the considered correct term - but now it isn't any more and people can find themselves being 'offensive' without even being aware of it. It's like not knowing whether to describe people as physically handicapped or disabled or whaever - neither of these terms are deliberately offensive, they just seem to come and go in terms of 'fashion'.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:17 AM

The term "political correctness" in my experience is most often used by people attacking what they conceive it to be rather than by people promlgating it. Typically, as blowzabella put it, as a sneer by some one who doesn't like the opinions or politics of others.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:28 AM

"Chronically advantaged citizen" is not an urban legend it is a not to read seriously exaggeration to make a point.
Whereas the poster of an urban legend believes it to have a factual basis expressions like 'vertically challenged' or whatever are not posted as factual examples but as exaggerations or irony. If you have the suspicion that some of the examples you have read are urban legends, McGrath, you may have taken serious the jokes page.

Those of you opposing a critique of political correctness by saying that it is simply advisable to try not to be rude misunderstand and underestimate what in my eyes what has led to that critique: The quickening pace with which ever more expressions have been added to the list of better-not-to-use expressions. What had started with good intentions has developed sometimes into a subculture of the easily insulted. That some of the people involved in that project don't like the critique is easily understandable.

That movement was based on a wrong conception stemming from research of Benjamin Whorf. Whorf had claimed to have found that language describing a person/country/thing/subgroup largely determines how we perceive and think about these things/persons. The opposite idea, namely that our perception of and thinking about things/persons determines how we perceive the words used to describe them is somewhat closer to the truth.

The idea that we have to take the words with the bad connotations away in order to facilitate a more neutral thinking about persons described with these words has led in Germany within the last century to altogether three changes in the verbal label given to the concept of 'Social Welfare'. The idea was each time to take the stigma away with which the people being on welfare have been connected. Each time that has failed miserably. The bad connotations have quickly been transferred to the new formerly completely neutral words.

Mind you, I'm all for calling people sharing some attribute with the name they themselves prefer (though sometimes I wish their preferences wouldn't change so quickly; and it is irritating for me that some don't like to be called by a word they themselves used most often among themselves). But this short step (calling them by their preferred name) doesn't change at all underlying prejudices. Within the last decade, the word 'Zigeuner' (Gypsy) has nearly completely been replaced by 'Sinti und Roma' in German. The prejudices stick now on the new (for us, not for them) names. The idea to influence the perceived reality by relabelling has failed once more.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:39 AM

And it comes as no surprise that relabelers now want to relabel 'political correctness' when they see that this label now has become a bad name. The bad name will soon stick to any other expression to replace it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: jonm
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:20 AM

I have had, and appreciated, many opportunities to interact with people of different generations, colour, faith, culture etc. to my own, through travel, work and music. I suspect I am no different to many on this forum in this respect.

I have learned from all of these experiences - what will offend, what will not, common and convenient forms of address, protocols regarding relgious festivals, food and so on.

It is my opinion that political correctness is born of ignorance; people create a culture of walking on eggshells in dealing with people who are different in some way as an alternative to finding out about, appreciating and experiencing those differences.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:34 AM

Boab has, I think, by his comments, proven why political correctness is dangerous. Those who do not suscribe to it are cretin. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:56 AM

It's true enough that when there is prejudice against any group of people then changing the label will in time just mean that the prejudice is carried by the new label just as much as the old.

However where there are other things happening which effectively tackle the prejudice in other ways, getting rid of a label associated with prejudice can help in the process.

In itself getting people to abandon expressions such as mongol, cretin, retarded and idiot doesn't get rid of the prejudice lying behind the terms and the way they have been and still are used - but not only were such expressions genuinely hurtful, in a way that the far more relevant term "people with learning difficulties" is not; and a lot of other things have been happening as well which have made it possible for such people to become accepted and familiar members of our communities.

Changing the label doesn't directly change the prejudice, but it can remove some of the habits that underpin it and give it social respectability. In circumstances where the prejudice is known to be absent then the label doesn't matter - hence the seeming inconsistency that Wolfgang finds irritating when "some don't like to be called by a word they themselves used most often among themselves". I can't see why that should be irritating - after all, doesn't everybody do something like that? A personal nickname - eg "Shorty", "Big Ears" "Fatso" - that is perfectly acceptable when used by a friend might become totally unacceptable when it's used by someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 09:29 AM

I was writing about 'people sharing some attribute', that is members of a group where I find it irritating. That individuals don't like to be called by strangers by names people they are cloes with use, even if these names are nice names like 'darling', does not irritate me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 09:55 AM

Excellent analysis, Wolfgang!! And an interesting issue. It is challenging to trace the layers of substance and significance between raw, initial perception and the complex of thoughts and feelings that -- for example -- are entrained by thinking about "old personhood".

Whorf's thesis has some truth to it, but perhaps not as much as people have made of ti since. Partly this is due to a confusion in labelings -- there are semantic labels, made with sounds and letters, and there are cognitive categories which also act as labels, such as the concept of what an old person is. Again for any individual there are kinds of attitudes and opinions about the reality about which one has the categories and onto which one places the semantic label. Finally,there are one's personal convictions which serve as reasons for holding the opinions about the perceived entities occupying the cognitive categories which bear the opinions invoked by the semantic labels. Gets tedious, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 10:23 AM

McGrath - There is a difference between a "wimpy complainer" and a "forthright complainer", don't you think? The former complains about something not worth complaining about. The latter does the reverse, complaining about matters which are worth complaining about.

It is the former type of complainer that people are objecting to who object to the present plague of what has come to be termed "political correctness".

Here's a sort of indirectly related example...

I found myself on a dead-end street the other day, whilst trying to go around the block, and reversed my car into a driveway in order to turn around. In doing so, I apparently intruded one wheel an inch or two onto the homeowner's grass (near the sidewalk). I was alerted to this by said homeowner, a very grouchy elderly man, who raised a terrible fuss about it, as if I had committed some sacrilege equivalent to raping the Queen Mother in her bedchamber or something...

Now that guy was what I would call a "wimpy complainer". I had in fact done nothing significant to harm his lawn, but the poor, disturbed soul obviously has VERY little to think about these days and is looking hard for something, anything, to get upset about.

I gave him a weary, noncommital look and drove away. Life's too short for all this petty harassment of people.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 10:58 AM

Well, LH...you coulda askerd him for directions and let him tell you where to go!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Steve-o
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:24 AM

Last month I sent an e-mail to a friend who works for the Navy, and in the midst of a funny story about my life I said something like, "...that sure doesn't bother this old Dago...." (referring to myself). My message was immediately bumped back by the Navy firewall, with the citation "Unauthorized Ethnic Slur" as the reason. This is the point of ridiculousness I am talking about. There hasn't been an Italian-American who was offended by "dago" since 1947- it's just a jokey word. And if there is one who is offended, he/she is exactly the thin-skinned wimp who ought to go find something serious to be upset about!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:27 AM

Quick -- get in touch with the Navy IT department and ask them for a list of authorized ethnic slurs, by ethnic group, and who the authorizing body is. I gotta know!!! Who does the peer reviews?


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM

Oh, Ebbie! If you don't wish me a goodbye or goodnight, my life is ruined!

What are you, an old broad or something?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM

I wouldn't call that old sod LH ran up against "wimpy" - that implies being timid rather than being bloody-minded. Maybe "wimpy" has a different significance across Atlantic.

I know what you mean about people who complain where there's really nothing worth complaining about - but I think it's important to be cautious about making that judgement. I've often enough been in arguments with people who really couldn't see anything wrong in using words like "retard" or "mongol" when talking about people I regard as my friends.

And Wolfgang - I know that nicknames for individuals and group names aren't the same thing. I was drawing an analogy - the thing that is common to both situations is that precisely same word can be used to refer to the same person or group of people - but it can carry a very different significance according to the context in which it is used. Nothing wrong with the word Yid when used by Yiddish speakers. But it's a different thing when it's used in other contexts.

I thought "Dago" meant Spanish. Surely it's "Wop" for Italians?

The concept of officially authorised ethnic slurs is an interesting one. Would "Morris Dancer" count as one?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:36 PM

Martin Gibson: Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 12:53 PM

'Yid' is a very fine example.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:41 PM

Well, Ebbie, that just was so obvious!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:52 PM

Guest, shadygrove writes: "Since bigots and racists are now deemed the lowest form of life other than pedophiles, it should not be so easy to label someone based on a careless word, or even a malicious word."

If that were fact rather than appearance, would society not be in much better shape? Seems to me that bigots, racists and pedophiles thrive in this world, and the whole PC thing was just a boogeyman to frighten progressives into shutting up.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:55 PM

no - 'Dago' is for Italians = at least here in the States. Also guinea; also wop;

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:12 PM

Strange. I've never heard of an Italian called "Diego", from which it supposedly comes.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

'Dago' has already been explained and analysed in this old thread.

Bottom line: the use as meaning 'Italian' dates back to 1870 though it originally has meant 'Spanish'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM

I ain't been hidin', Martin Gibson.

But it does seem odd to me that people who object to 'Have a nice day!' as a new age kind of thing, long ago have accepted '(Have a) Good night!') Or 'Goodbye' (God be wit' ye)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:21 PM

McGrath: you try to dismiss the "political correctness gone mad" stories as urban legends. Well, maybe a lot are. But there is a continuous stream of real examples, which it is worth keeping an eye on. here is a sample of undoubtedly true ones.Preventing people using the term "manhole covers". Writing a letter to the mother of a boy with learning difficulties,asking for him to be prevented from humming the tune to Baa Baa Black Sheep at a play group. Telling someone it is inappropriate to use the term "christian name", even when referring to their own first name.
   Where would you stand on those three examples? I absolutely find all three absurd, and also very dangerous. And I would unhesitaing use the term "political correctness" to indicate my contempt for people trying to impose rules like that. And no, I dont go around calling people mongs or niggers

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:42 PM

I object to "have a nice day" with a big yellow smiley face, or a store clerk who doesn't even know me or could care less.

Empty sayings are no where as effective as telling someone to "eat shit and die" when you really mean it.

Saying "have a nice day" just to be politically correct and polite when one doesn't really mean it or could care less, kind of makes me want to puke.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:57 PM

Some time ago I posted a comment here about the socialist agenda of a certain academic. I was immediately attacked on the grounds that my objections were due to her gender.

If you are female it appears to be PC to be a sexist bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:59 PM

Well, M G, you do tend to be kinda adversarial and are often exceeding angry, it seems to me. You might notice that at the very least, they who wish you a nice day care enough to offer a token of manners. That's worth something. You want deep truth from your grocery-bagger? Dramatized nihilism to demonstrate integrity? It wouldn't work, I promise!!

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM

I take it that these are all things that have happened to your knowledge, rather than being versions of things that happened to a friend of a friend.

Obviously I'd call them all daft - and I'd be very suspicious of the intentions of anyone who tried to impose those kind of rules. My suspicion would be that they had some kind of dodgy agenda. They might for example be trying to ridicule the notion that words can hurt. Or it might be a ploy in some kind of office politics - "I'll show them I'm in charge".

So far as Christian names go, obviously it is not a good idea to ask someone what their Christian name is unless you have some reason to believe that they were actually Christened - even aside from any possible question of offence, for example to someone who might be a Moslem or Jew, it's a nonsensical use of the term. Like asking an unmarried person for their married name. "First name" or prerably "given name" (allowing for the fact that given names aren't always first names, especially with Chinese people) is a better expression to use when asking questions. But obviously nobody has any business to tell someone they shouldn't use the expression when referring to their own names.

If the expression "politically incorrect" were ever a term worth using, it'd be appropriate to use it of the kind of petty tyranny and bigotry demonstrated in such episodes.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:59 PM

"Given name" preferable? You wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of Native Americans for whom, as one of them once told me, a name is not given but 'found'.
Whatever you do and how carefully you watch your steps, there'll be always someone who claims that his or her toes have been under your feet.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM

Well we definitely agree on those examples McGtath. I was very specific about the Christian name example: I was referring to an attempt to stop people using the term to refer to their own first names, not to other people's.I solidly stand by my right to refer to Greg as my Christian name(though I'm not a Christian,as it happens!).

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:40 PM

Christian name means the name was given at some kind of Christening ceremony, not that the person involved is any kind of practising Christian. There are Christians who don't go in for Christenings, and technically at least it'd be wrong to refer to their names as Chrustian names.

It's not just about hurting people's feelings, it's also about using language accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:43 PM

I think we ought to accept that some of the 'offences' caused happen through ignorance not deliberate callousness. A lot of instances, such as McGrath describes (whom I believe to be a man of great taste and principle, since he is a New Scorpion Band fan) can come out of habit, more than anything - using the term Christian name, as an example, is a bit like using the term Hoover, rather than vacuum cleaner - it has been 'marketed' so well, that it has become part of our vocabulary, as simply meaning a persn's first name, nothing more - the UK is hardly renowned as being a hotbed of Christian radicalism. Only in the culture of political correctness, is it seen as being more than what it is - imprecise use of language and when we read in the news that a good proportion of our schoolleavers cannot read or write effectively, why are we surprised at this.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Burke
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

In the US, 'Christian' is hardly ever used. If it is you could get a strange look, like you're referring to a some special Catholic name. Alternatives: first name, given name, forename, personal name.

I haven't heard the term Dago in a long time. I did hear it more when I was younger. It was not in joking or fun terms, it was a pejorative. Maybe it's been unused long enough to revive as more lighthearted, but I'm not too sure.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:14 PM

Well, people better stop referring to hamsters as "dust bugs" and "furballs" or there's going to be big trouble around here!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Steve-o
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:16 PM

MG, with every post I like you better. Ya got ol' Amos hot under the collar about "Have a nice day"! I usually say, "Maybe", just to confuse them, rather than what I'm thinking ("I got your nice day, right here!"). I figure I'm following in Pete Seeger's footsteps- he said he got so sick of people automatically saying "How are you?" that he always answered, "Struggling". I really loved that recent commercial where all the New York City boneheads in a bar are saying, "Howya dooin', howya dooin'" to each other, and then the "rube" from out of town proceeds to actually tell the guy how he is doing. "Well, I'm doing just fine, thanks for asking...you know, I got up this morning and the weather was so nice, and then.....bla bla bla."   Totally boggles their "minds".

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:23 PM

Now Steve, you ain't seen me half started as far as hot under the collar goes. I was just chivvying Mister Gibson a tad. When people ask me how I am doing, I usually stop for a split second to determine whether they mean anything by it. If they do, I tell them accordingly. If they only mean a little bit, that's what they get. And so on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:28 PM

Well with my usual South Welsh 'Bloody Mindedness' I try to counter extream PC.

But abusive/offensive comment I will try to avoid - Unless its neccessary. (My defenition of neccessary !)

But circumlocations I will go out of my way to avoid.

Sorry - but thats me - I will not rename Manchester Personchester, and I can vouch for this being said at a Labour Party meeting at Canterbury. And as far as I am concerned a Ship" is her !

A unrepentant Gareth

And I'll stick to "Chair" rather than "Chairperson"

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:29 PM

...and I won't be reconstructed,
And I DO not give a damn!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:41 PM

I still say "chairman". Those who don't like it can go climb a cactus. I consider a woman who is "chairing" a meeting to be the chairman of the meeting, okay? A chair is something people sit on, and you cannot chair something. It's not a verb. (This is just my version of English...feel free to use a different one if you like.)

Man is a generic term meaning human being...it is not necessarily the opposite of "woman", although it can be in a certain context. Male is the opposite of female.

The "rights of man", for example, means the rights of all people.

Hey, GUEST Martin Gibson...How are you? Oh, and have a nice day... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:40 PM

I'd think in "chairman", "man" doesn't actually have the generic meaning. Do properly it ought to be chairman or cahirwoman according to who is in the chair.

In Rights of Man and Manhole Cover it does of course mean human being.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 09:18 PM

Now if the Navy has a list of "Unauthorised Ethinc Slurs", it implies a list of "Authorised Ethinc Slurs" .... ???? :-)

And now I notice that the US Army in Iraq is kindly writing home on behalf of the soldiers praising Bush's Policies... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:08 PM

Hey, SOMEBODY's gotta do it, right...??? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 12:56 AM

Wwolfgang, it is my understanding from what I've heard first-hand, read, or seen in documentaries that Indians/Native Americans actually can have several names in their lifetimes and some of those are given. I saw an author on the tv the other night, describing how his parents took him to Devil's Tower as a baby and how the tribe then gave him a name reflecting that journey early in his life.

I don't like "have a nice day" that much either as it is so vacuous and usually said without thought, BUT I've never thought of it as politically correct. It's always seemed like a marketing thing to me...be nice to the customers, wish them well even if they don't like it.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:11 AM

McGrath: are you going to explain why "manhole" is not politically incorrect, because "man" in that context means "person";but on the other hand in "chairman" the "man" implies "female". What is the distinction you are making here, and what is the linguistic background? Or to phrase it in a diffeerent way, I think you're talking bollix.(On this specific point only, I hasten to add).

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM

On the TV quiz 'Mastermind' this week, one of the questions was,
'a famous actor was christened Krishna Banji, how is he more better known ?'



Answer:Ben Kingsley.

'was christened' ??

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:07 AM

& of course this also brings into the pc controversy the very title 'Mastermind'.

Should it be 'Personmind'?

Personally I don't mind!! *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:36 AM

I have used the term 'Madam Chairman' when it was (to my mind) appropriate. I was prepared to argue, but no-one else was, including the lady concerned, who had no sexist axe to grind.

In my youth, Negros were known, there and then, as 'Spades.' Not because of 'calling a spade...' but 'Black as the Ace of..' Just thought you should know that out of interest, and because Early's opening post reminded me of it.

Yes, PC has gone a LOT too far, but it doesn't seem to have extended to Christianity here in NZ, oddly enough. Adverts on TV have been taken off because they could be interpreted as having reference to certain eastern creeds, but other adverts depicting cassocked service celebrants turning somersaults backed by alter-boy chorus (Bell tea)
and singing uniformed evangelist types (can't remember the product)have been played ad nauseum. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 07:01 AM

Not too sure there, Greg, and I could be etymologically wrong. But I suppose it's because "chairman" sounds analogous to other words such as "horseman" where, so far as I know, the use of the accompanying term "horsewoman" long predates these linguistics controversies. Spo far as I kniow it's never been customary to call women riders "horsemen".

It tends to end up sounding daft either way. You had people at the recent Tory party conference addressing the lady in the chair as "Mr Chairman", but what do you expect with Tories? But does "Mrs Chairman" sound any better? However "Mrs Chair" sounds even dafter. "Mr Bedside Table"..."Mrs Television set"... I think on balance Chairwoman has a lot to recommend it.

It goes the other way too - you have absurdities like male midwives being called something else, in spite of the fact that the wife bit there doesn't refer to the midwife at all, but to the women giving birth (and it doesn't mean "wife" in our modern sense either, butjust "woman".)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:02 AM

Along those lines, you always hear about men being "womanizers" which to me is being accused of loving pussy.

But women never get accused of being "man-izers."

So, in my most politically incorrect way, I ask you, why the fuck not?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM

McGarth: sometimes when you say a word "means" something, you use it in the sense of"what the word means nowadays". But on other occasions, if it suits your argument, you use "means" in the sense of "well, it may not mean that now, but it used to a couple of hundred years ago, or at least I think it did". Makes you a little hard to pin down, on occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 12:29 PM

Got it in one, Greg. Well, it's not as calculated as that, but true enough. But I think it's normally fairly clear from the context which way I'm intending it.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 02:31 PM

When it comes to understanding what someone is actually saying, what matters is what it means to that person. When it comes to arguments about etymology - eg whether "man" should be read as being about gender or species in a particular word or phrase, the history of the word becomes relevant.

So it's helpful to recognise that sometimes when some perople say "bad", they mean "good". But when it comes to deciding which sense of the word should be the default meaning, so to speak, the older meaning comes into its own.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:36 PM

I think the traditional counterpart of the "womanizer" is the "maneater", isn't it? (not to be interpreted literally...)

A woman is a man blessed with the ability to bring forth a child. This made women very sacred beings in most traditional cultures, and is one reason why men were seen as more expendable, and were exposed to greater physical risk in hunting and in war (women are certainly capable of both activities).

From there, people have gone to the crassness of modern society where a woman is seen as less valuable because her period may cause her to miss a couple of days of work a month...or other such lines of materialistic reasoning.

This is the decline of the sacred into the mundane, and it doesn't speak well for modern society.

In other areas, though, there have been significant improvements in the lot of women too, so it's not all bad by any means.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:27 PM

LH, generally I agree with you except the stigma about a woman's "moontime" was prevelant long before modern times. A lot of cultures considered it a curse, an unclean time and some still do.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM

Yep. That's true. That nonsense started with the onset of the patriarchal age (which is about all our recorded history knows about). The patriarchs were afraid of the power in women. They ought better to have revered it than suppressed it, but they were an insecure bunch, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:05 PM

In keeping with the spirit of the title of this thread, a lot of men have gotten rich and made good money selling tampons and kotex.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:14 PM

That nonsense started with the onset of the patriarchal age (which is about all our recorded history knows about).

So if there's no record of it, how can we tell it started then?

My understanding is that cultures around the world vary in a much more complicated way that is implied in terms like "the patriarchal age". There's enormous variance in these kinds of things between cultures which in quite a lot of other ways would appear very comparable.

.......

Interesting that in English there doesn't appear to be any female equivalent of "uxorious". And the other odd thing about that word is that it seems generally to be used with a slightly pejorative tone.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 07:06 PM

The female equivalent of a man being uxorious (excessively submissive or devoted to one's wife) is married, according to male egos.

The feminine equivalent of a weomanizer is a lass who is round at heel, or perhaps a ****teaser...or a nymphomaniac.

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:45 PM

greg stephens >> McGrath: are you going to explain why "manhole" is not politically incorrect, because "man" in that context means "person"; but on the other hand in "chairman" the "man" implies "female".


Sorry, this assumption is not correct - this is an invaild assumption about origin of the word "chairman"

In the word "chairman" man comes from

mannus = the hand

thus it is the chair of the hand guiding the meeting.

Has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with man/woman

If we don't know the Greek and Latin roots of word in modern English, and which one to apply in which case, our ignorance will feed our confusion.

So we need knowledge.

And where do you get this knowledge?

From the cursed Academics, who have it all "writted on a piece of paper" to quote Spike Milligan :-) (entymolgoical dictionaries!)


I'm not an expert in Latin and Greek roots - when I went to primary school, it was part of the compulsory education process in the 1950's - I have NEVER regretted this part of my education - in the later "reforms" that crippled education, this sort of knowledge was deemed irrelevant or confusing and swept aside. This reponse and the orignal post that triggered it show the sort of confusion that ignorance or what then becomes "hidden knowledge" (arcane!) causes.

I never could understand why - sort of like teaching inorganic chemistry, but refusing to first give the student a basic grounding in the theory of moelcular structure or discrete atomic theory.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Leo Condie
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:31 AM

CLIVE:
..... I want to tell you a story. There's this bloke, and he's Irish and he's Jewish and he's Pakistani and he's stupid and he's lost his teeth .....
DEREK:
Ahh-hugh-ho-ho!
CLIVE:
..... and all his h-, all his hair fell out .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
Oh-hoo! And .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... all his hair fell out .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... and his legs fell off .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... and, er, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo! Oh-
CLIVE:
..... his, his, his cock got sliced off by a lawn mower!
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
And he said, oh-hoo, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... he said, "I'm not feeling too well."
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
And this black bloke came round and said to him, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... "If you're not feeling well, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... you should see how I'm feeling!"
DEREK:
Ohhhhhhhh!!!!!
CLIVE:
Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!! That's Alfie Noakes folks!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:19 AM

For another opinion about the etymology of chairman click here

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:28 AM

So it's been "chairwoman" since the 17th century. Why change it now?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: muppett
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:04 AM

being PC what's it all about, my skin is brown in colour, I hate being told I'm black,I'm Just Muppett, my parents, grand parents, great grand parents, great, great grand parents came from all parts of the world, I hate being told I'm mixed race. A number of people think they are offending me calling me Muppett, in an attempt at PC, I once recieved a letter addressed to me as Mr. M.UPPETT, I'm Muppett by name, Muppett by nature as many people who know will vouch for this. Yes there are times when being careful with your choice of words, but come on changing the name of a blackboard, not singing Bar Bar Black sheep, What'll be next Personchester instead of Manchester.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:09 AM

I've always got round the Chair-man-woman-person problem by referring to them as "the chair" - mind you with some of the committees I've had experience of, the piece of furniture itself was probably as astute as the person sitting on it.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:36 AM

When Mrs Brown chairs the meeting that means Mrs Brown is in the chair. Having the chair in the chair is one chair too many.

"The chair tabled the motion..."

Edward Lear comes to mind:

Said the Table to the Chair,
"You can hardly be aware,
How I suffer from the heat,
And from chilblains on my feet!
If we took a little walk,
We might have a little talk!
Pray let us take the air!"
Said the Table to the Chair.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:05 AM

Back in the late 1970's I came across this one ...

Woman is not PC because it contains "man" which is male...

----> man to person

--->>> Woperson

Wait, Woperson cannot be PC, as it contains "son" which is male...

-----> son to one

---->>>> Woperone

:-)

I think it was in the Uni Qld Student paper, which was then reasonably good...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM

McGrath - I could give you an extensive and voluminous answer to where we get that information from (outside of the conventional historical record), but I'm not going to. I don't have enough endurance for that particular discussion tonight. Let's just say it's a sleeping dog and let it lie... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:58 AM

There are any number of female versions of womanizer: slut, tramp, tart, ho, hoochie, floozie, slag, chippie. They all mean a woman who has sex with lots of men, and none of them are a said in kindness. The only synonym I can think of for womanizer is tomcat.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:55 PM

But, Little Hawk, you just said "our recorded history " - and I took that as meaning any kind of record. Goes a lot wider than the stuff that gets written up in history books.

I just think a lot of this nonsense probably goes back a lot further than that. Doesn't mean it's not nonsense, and it doesn't mean we have to give up on getting rid of it. We humans can be capable of changing quite drastically. But I feel we have to recognise we are dealing with something with pretty deep roots.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 11:14 AM

Robin,

'Woperone' can't be pc either 'cos it's got 'wop' in it!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 12:41 PM

And Peron