Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals

Subject: Trad. vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 02:41 PM

Arnie brought up on a different thread that at the recent OCFF (Ontario Council of Folk Festivals) conference, it looked like trad. would end up in the history books rather than having a presence on festival stages. It wasn't appropriate to respond to it on that thread, so I've started this one.

I have certainly noticed this trend over the years at our Ontario Festivals. Thankfully there are still places such as the Celtic festival in Goderich at which trad. is the mainstay. I really feel that it is a responsibility of festival organizers to keep trad. alive and well. The public needs to be educated. There can be a mix. I worry so much when festivals such as Eaglewood promote themselves now as singer-songwriter festivals. Can't there be a mix, and sometimes some creative interplay between these two streams of music? Why should a trad. artist, such as Arnie, be shut out of any folk festival?

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 02:48 PM

Depends on the festival, imo. Some festivals could do a better job keeping trad acts on the main stages, but choose to keep them on the smaller stages. I can live with that, and it seems like a reasonable solution. On one hand, the festival needs to remain financially solvent if it is to continue, so having at least a few big name draws for the ticket sales is fine with me, even if the festival has historically been one where trad was common. Festival organizers do have some responsibility to keep trad prominent in the historically trad festivals. But I don't think they have any responsibility to keep them pure trad, especially if it means eventual bankruptcy.

As to singer-songwriter festivals, why not? I think they are fine too. There is room in the world for all sorts of music festivals. I'd need some proof that singer-songwriter festivals steal the audience for trad festivals--I wouldn't think the two would mix that much, considering the antipathy many trad purists feel towards the singer-songwriters.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:00 PM

Being one a them danged singer-songwriter types, and also one a them danged traditional music singing fools and having run a festival heavy on traditional music with songwriters like Bill Staines and Gordon Bok(who for some reason slips under the singer-songwriter radar completely) I can truly say I Can See Both Sides Now.

My favorite festivals are those that welcome both traditional music and songwriters who have a love for traditional music that is reflected in their repertoire, and the songs that they write. I loved the Eisteddfod in the years when Howard Glasser was running it, and performed there many times. I loved the balance... tipped heavily toward traditional music, but not condescending toward musicians who wrote songs, too. I would enjoy festivals that are all traditional music, but I don't really know of a single one. There are usually some songs that no one would seriously label traditional. My only gripe about some traditional music is that the musicians forget that the music was played to entertain... not to educate, or most deadly of all, to be revered. Echhhhh!

The only songwriters-only festival I've ever been to I were one of the songwriters... I felt tradition starved by the end of the festival, and would think about doing that again, even though everyone there was enjoyable, warm and friendly. I think that traddies and songwriters should mix fine...

The farmer and the cowman should be friends.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:07 PM

Black Walnut - Arnie who? I assume the festivals you are mentioning are in the U.K.?

Over the years I've seen trends shifting at various festivals here in the northeast U.S.   While singer-songwriters have become the overwhelming favorite, there are still spectacular festivals that find room for both.   Old Songs is probably a good example. The New Bedford Summerfest has done some wonderful scheduling.   Seeing the Copper Family share workshops with singer-songwriters really helped show the connection.

Here in the U.S., I think the majority of attendees go for the ambiance and good time. Hardcore folkies and hardcore singer-songwriter fans make up just a small part of the attendees. Festivals that cater to families, provide a diversity of entertainment, good food and most importantly - good value - will do well.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM

I have to admit, I'm more interested in the new stuff than the old... mostly cause I've heard a lot of the old stuff to death...

But it's like the Vikings used to say, "only good swords become old swords"...   If it's good enough, it'll stand the test of time... it might go away for a while, but it'll never be gone...

Windsor had a Celtic Fest here for a few years... and the 2nd year the joke was "15 bands, 6 songs"... cause nearly every band did crap like "Star Of The County Down" and "Whiskey In The Jar" and "Wild Rover"... The same old stuff that we (They) played in pub gigs...

It's no wonder that in years 3 and 4, people stayed away in droves and killed the fest...

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:12 PM

Can't have one without the other. When the different sorts of music rub along together it's good for all of them. Keeps this alive and alert.

If a new song can't stand up in the company of old songs, it's probably not too good a song. And if an old song which has proved itself through time can't stand up in front of new songs, it means it isn't being sung right.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: open mike
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM

yes but do the cattle ranchers and the sheep ranchers get along?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:04 PM

With each other or the livestock?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:07 PM

Ron - no, I am talking about Ontario Canada, not the U.K. The Arnie I was referring to is Arnie Naiman, a fantastic Old Time banjo player who has performed and recorded with Chris Coole, Chris Quinn, and Brian Taheny - and Mudcatter.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:13 PM

Oh yes! I've played his music on my show. Great CD's!! I would love to see him in performance someday.

I am very surprised to hear that trad is having such a hard time getting onstage in Canada. Based on the recordings I've received and people I've talked to, I thought that trad music was more widely accepted in Canada. That is a real shame if festivals are having problems in sharing the stage. Such beautiful music from Canada!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie Naiman
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM

Hello there - I'm the Arnie - I play some banjo - old and new stuff - It's hard to get a gig. Festivals in Ontario for the most part are turning into nothing more than performance acts for modern singer songwriters. There is little folk culture in what many of these singers do, unless sitting and gawking at beautiful people with beautiful voices with attitudes and power chords with acoustic guitars all plugged in has become what folk culture is now about. There is almost nothing participitory for the audience in what they do other than the audience being entertained. This is a far cry from Mariposa's initial festival vision where acts were mixed, treated as equals and trad made up more than 50% of what went on. You could actually jam , sing along, dance and be involved in a cultural folk music experience back then. Now you just sit and wait to hear the next star, or wanna be star - that's it. There are still examples of good diverse festivals - Goderich, Ottawa festivals are examples of that. It looks to me that trad music will be relegated to the bars, pubs, sing arounds, camps, community dances etc. and kept to it's own community's activities for now, until some of these AD's and promoters realise again that this music is good enough for the masses.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:26 PM

Hi Arnie! Good to "talk" to you here!! I love your music! :)

Your story about festivals in Ontario reminds me of one festival (which I won't name)that had been my favorite festival since the late 70's. The festival started out as a great cultural experience as you mention- diverse acts, dancing, jamming, and a mix of well known performers and relatively unknown "source" singers.   The atmosphere was amazing.   Each year the crowds would swell and suddenly the promoters began going after more "names" - many that were more pop than traditional.   I rarely attend this festival anymore because they just don't get it. Now I count the days to great festivals like Old Songs, my absolute favorite!

Part of the "issue" is changing tastes.   Let's face it, singer-songwriters sell more CD's and get more airplay in general. Even though the bubble seems to have burst (or at least sprung a leak), they are the draw for contemporary audiences.   I see festivals like Old Songs, New Bedford, Champlain Valley and others continuing to prosper and always giving variety. My gut tells me they will outlive the festivals that cater soley to the singer-songwriter crowd.

Ron

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 10:49 PM

I must admit I struggle with this. I play a mix. I write a lot of what I sing, and I sing a lot of trad. My new songs often sound like old songs ... so some folks don't know where to put me. Playing the Celtic venues is a help, because they are nearly always open to both - and I am comfortable playing a non-celtic song there now and then, if there's a reason to tie it in. I have more trouble in the folk world. I had one venue pissed off because I played a few "cover" songs, among my own compositions (they were trad really, and definately NOT cover, but I didn;t argue - I just won't go back).

I have to say, even as a singer songwriter - I sure do get singer/songwriter'ed out pretty quick. There's too much interest in the whiney, "I know what's wrong with; you, Mom, Dad, my old girlfriend or me"... sort of songs. Too much self focus. It looses prety damn quick.

Do I sound a bit cynical?

;-)

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM

Actually, though I suppose my humor was a bit too subtle, this is exactly what I was talking about in this thread.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM

Well, Jed, bumps and grinds are part of the trade, I guess, but I certainly hear ya about the navel tuning class of act. It is hard on the ole attention span, no? But there are kindred souls out there, so be of good cheer. Just plan on your next production run in Toronto, or a world tour for the Beef Brothers!!

A

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:29 AM

I prefer it if the songwriters sing at least some traditional songs. Songwriter songs can be fine, but they tend to be a "performance." Traditional songs are something everybody can share - the product of the people, rather than the work of an individual.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:57 AM

Somebody, somewhere, once sat down and thought, "Hmmm...what about 'Mother, give me my dinner, for I'm a very tired sinner'? No, that doesn't work. How about 'Oh, my mother, I am weary, let me lie down, won't you, dearie'? Not quite... Hey, I've got it! 'Mother, make my bed soon, for I'm weary with hunting and fain would lie doon.' Cool!"

Even the traddest song was made by a songwriter.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:14 AM

You've hit it Mark - how does a song become traditional unless someone first writes it and sings it round?

There are still some folk out there who are adamantly arguing that certain songs (mostly from the Sy Khan stable) are traditional and are thoroughly chastened when they learn that the author is still alive - it's like Les Barker says: 'Here's a traditional song that I've written'.

The crux of the question has to be (and I say this with due trepidation and knowledge that there must be at least 49 threads already on this, which some clever dick will attach in that neat way that they do), when does a song become a traditional song? How old or how popular does it have to be? Some would say that 'She moved through the fair' is trad. but it's fairly recent, 'My Laggan Love' and 'Fiddler's Green' are also younger than they seem....

(Incidentally, it's also amusing that when I posted this, the adverts below were for, respectively 'Endangered Species' and 'Brain Tumour patients'.... does this mean that Trad is endangered and songwriters need their heads examined?)

LTS

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:39 AM

Hey, Liz, I'm the "clever dick" who does most of the crosslinking on threads, and I'm trying to figure out whether I should be insulted or not.
I'm also trying to figure out if there's a suitable group to crosslink this with, and I haven't found it...

-Joe Offer-
[grin]

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:51 AM

For the most part over here in UK the Singer/Songwriter and Traddie
people all get along together,with a surprising number of British Singer/songwriters actually writing songs in the traditional idiom.
Bring Us A Barrell is thought by many to be a 'Trad' song which is in fact one of Keith Mardens early efforts.Dave Webber is called a traditional singer,but sings mostly his own songs.Thank God the days are long past when you would not be allowed into some clubs if you played a guitar(NOT Traditional),although concertinas (circa 1841 patent) were permitted.
   And the clubs that are called Traditional still book a lot of Contemporary Singer/Songwriters.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:55 AM

Joe's made me realize that it's not just the festival organizers, but also the performers themselves who are responsible to include trad. in their repertoire. Some already do that - for instance I love it when David Francey sings an old Scottish tune. If more singer-songwriters did that, it would raise the profile of trad., and maybe nudge the audience to give the more thoroughly trad. artists a listen.

A very closely related issue, I believe, is the demise of the instrumental musician at our festivals. I'm talking about the ones who play an instrument extraordinarily well, but don't sing. One used to be able to go to more instrumental workshops, of various shapes and sizes, and I dare say most of what was played was trad.

If we can't make a distinction between trad. and singer-songwriter, we won't be able to talk about the music that is missing in the festivals. It used to be there. Great folk performers are being shut out. It's very sad, and it's a problem. I'm concerned.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,JOHN OF ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:03 AM

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,JIOHN OF ELSIES`S BAND
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:12 AM

Joe,
    Even those songs that we enjoy singing together and we refer to   as traditional were originally the work of some individual expressing his thoughts, ideas or opinions. We who write songs nowadays are just continuing in the same vein and, who knows, maybe a long way in the future some of our work will find its way into the trad. pool.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: VIN
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM

I agree with the view that all songs/tunes were once written by someone and at the time they were contemporary. Its already happening that many songs/tunes written by such people as Ewan McColl, Bob Dylan, Keith Hancock, Tom Paxton, Ian Campbell, Christy Moore, Cyril Tawney &c are being passed on from generation to generation and, therfor, in that sense are becoming traditional at least on the 'folk scene'.

Can't for the life of me understand purists?' who can only listen to traditional music or 'contempories' who can't stand trad. whether here in England or elswhere. The best club/festivals, in my opinion, are those that combime both otherwise i reckon you're missing out on a helluva lot! But then each to there own.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:55 AM

It seems in this thread, we're all in agreement about a 'mix' being important - but as performers who write new and sing old too - we find we are not welcome at many venues. It ain't the listeners, it's the organizer/booking folks. The venue that I metioned above, that got pissed off because I played some songs I didn't write - I received a long, standing ovation from the crowd. They loved it - but the folks running the venue didn't.

Music listeners always respond to the mix. I don't know how, as a song writer I could sing my songs without using the backdrop of trad music, or even songs from other writers. For me the mix is absolutely necessary. For some venues, it is one or the other (so I don't fit).

That, I think is the nub of the discussion.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM

Somewhere between Mark Cohen's and Clinton Hammond's remarks are what strikes me as an obvious problem -- Yeah, some "singer/songwriter" once wrote the trad songs -- but he/she also FELT them, experienced them, and the events and situations that inspired them. And as Mr Hammond points out, recitation lacks what is compelling about the best of music currently written.

But if I hear one more angry young girl...

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:21 AM

One of the trends that I have noticed of late is that many Pubs advertise Trad but really showcase singer songwriters. I have nothing against singer\songwriters but I do find rather a lot of them tediously earnest and not remotely folk at all. I guess it is just a case of buyer beware because there are many singer songwriters who do trad as well. But i see what you all mean.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: VIN
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:30 AM

I agree john that the original writers of songs/tunes may have 'FELT them, experienced them, and the events and situations that inspired them', but that does not mean that others later can't feel them, experience them or interpret them with feeling. You don't have to have been at Gallipoli (as Eric Bogle was'nt) to appreciate or be moved by 'the band played waltzing matilda' do you? Think of what Van Gogh must have been feeling when he created his masterworks - it does'tn mean to say future generations can't appreciate them or be moved by 'em. Same thing in classical music with the likes of Mahler or Shostakovich - there are many, many interpretations even though what was going thru the composer's mind at the time was probably very personal. I can still apreciate the music/songs (and hopefully understand the message if there is one) tho!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:59 AM

John Hardly - most musicologists would define "traditional" songs as having gone through the folk process,multiple "authors" if you will, that have evolved the songs and tunes. Geographic location and circumstances help the folk process along.

Your point though is well taken, but even the "angry young girl" that you mentioned has experienced the feelings and events that she sings about. Unfortunately her songs force the audience into eavesdropping on her therapy sessions.   I like to call that catagory "singer-songwhiners".

We do have to acknowledge that there is an audience for that type of music.   From some of the postings above, it seems that SOME presenters have a tendancy to book ONLY those type of acts. What is that telling us? I personally think that it is a case of a music genre looking for an audience. 20 years ago the title "singer-songwriter" was not used. It only came to be when this type of musician did not like to be called "folk". Before commercial radio went corporate, these type of acts would have found a home on album oriented rock radio. That type of radio has all but disappeared, and the closest format that SEEMS to fit their music is folk.   I can't tell you how many CD's I receive that proclaim to be "folk", but I couldn't find it in my heart to play because it doesn't fit the way I format my show.   Folk radio, folk festivals, folk clubs.   By definition, folk music has always incorporated diverse styles and traditions and for the most part, the singer-songwriter genre evolved from that tradition.

I remember trying to arrange an interview with a "singer-songwriter" about 20 years ago. This individual had just switched record labels from Columbia Records to Asylum, and his agent gave me his phone number to set up the interview. I would rather not mention his name, but if you heard his music you would see that his folk roots were showing. He plays guitar, banjo and several of his songs are old folk tunes with new lyrics. He writes with a folk sensibility. When I called him up and mentioned that I host a folk radio program, he told me "I'm not a folksinger" and hung up.   I find it interesting that 20 years later this individual, who now releases his music independently, headlines numerous folk festivals and plays the folk circuit. What caused him to re-embrace the community? Simply trying to find an audience.

Sorry to drift and ramble, but this topic is more than just festivals. I think much of this shows that slapping labels on music only tends to divide.   Most ears will enjoy GOOD music.   The best festivals will always be the ones that find room for all types.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:14 AM

good thoughts Ron. And yes, the best will always find room for both!

I believe the best singer/songwriters perform both. I could listen to Bill Staines or Aengus Finnan all night - and they play both (in fact Finnan plays one of mine, what a fine intelligent lad he must be!). So many of the trad performers I've worked or have seen with play both. Brian McNeill is a perfect example. He has a true love for trad, is a well versed folklorist and musician - and if you didn't hear him make the introductions, you couldn't always tell what was odl and what was new. That is true respect and love for the tradition - and excellent contribution to the tradition. Likewise Ed Miller - known as a fine singer of trad and contemporary Scottish folk, but writes some (or co-writes) in the style of the trad.

I have to admit I the songwhiners (good term) get under my skin pretty quick - but I realize that I am in the minority. On the other hand, I am certain that audiences generally respond to good music and don't care so much about it's origins.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Mark Ross
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:25 AM

"It is not for the winemaker to decide whether the the juice of the grape will be wine or vinegar. That is for time to decide."

                                     Utah Phillips

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:33 AM

Well, my previous post was about a noticable and gradual shift amongst Ontario festivals to cater to mainly singer/songwriter performances. Those performers I must say for the most part are very talented, creative and gifted writers and musicians who are really good at what they do, I like many of them - some better than others, and they seem to be very marketable to young audiences. (Of course every listener has their tastes). I not expressing this as some sort of conflict between trad and songwriter - it's the lack of interest especially amongst the organisers in having trad music events at the festivals that is concerning. I used to look up to with awe at the older trad musicians I heard at festivals which gave me inspiration to follow up on their music and investigate more about it. I've taken some of that music with me in what I play now - I owe a great deal to those festivals and clubs that hired them. Mitch Podolak (former director of Winnipeg folk festival) in interviewing The Friends of Fiddler's Green last week said that the style of singing that they do is now completely absent from western Canadian festivals, and asked them what they thought of that and what their contibution has been to the music scene. I was a little shocked when Mitch said that - to think that English chorus harmony singing is a thing of the past in western Canada shows where our cultural diversity may be headed. But it's not just that style of trad that is absent - it's others as well. There will be a new generation that won't be exposed to this music at all at the festivals in the summer, and they'll maybe, possibly discover it by chance some day on recordings or somewhere else.
Arnie

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:45 AM

"There will be a new generation that won't be exposed to this music at all at the festivals in the summer, and they'll maybe, possibly discover it by chance some day on recordings or somewhere else."

Arnie, I'm more hopeful than that. If we look back at the "folk revival", we can see that much of this music we call "traditional" was really ignored by the public at large during the early part of the 20th century. The work of dedicated musicologists was only in the realm of academia until about the 1940's when others took up "the cause".   English harmony chorus singing IS a thing of the past,as is shanty singing, square dancing and other forms of the folk tradition - but it is kept alive by people who have developed a keen interest.

That interest will continue, but there needs to be a "spark" of some sort for it to ignite in a larger fashion. I'm not sure if there will be another folk revival to match the one that peaked in the 1960's, but the interest will remain.

The issue comes back to presenters who have the foresight or know how to expose others to it. It also comes back to performers who know how to do the same. The bottom line is that we are talking about commercial acceptance here, not the lineage of folk music itself.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 12:19 PM

I am particularly amused that a thread by Ontarians complaining about the lack of Traditional Folk Music would not have mentioned the "Millrace Festival of TRADITIONAL Folk Music" which has been running for 11 years. It runs the Saturday of the August Bank Holiday weekend and is also a FREE Festival. Brad McEwen the Organizer and Musical Director also runs TRAD sessions in Cambridge Ontario, on a Bi-weekly basis from Sept to May each year.
Another place not mentioned is the Tranzac club in Toronto. I drove 1 1/4 hours each way to hear Martin Carthy last Sunday night, apart from Hamlet does it get any more Trad than that. He also appeared in London Ont. The Flying Cloud frequently has top of the line traditional acts there.
In defence of Eaglewood, they had Enoch Kent on their lineup this year. Who knows which songs Enoch wrote himself or which are trad, when he sings them they all sound trad because he writes in a Trad style. They also Featured Washington, Whiteley and Scarlett not what I would call "Singer Songwriters"
Now, is it that we are looking in different places for traditional material because we are looking for material from different traditions?
I do agree BTW that we need More "Traditional" music of ALL traditions.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 12:40 PM

This is a very interesting thread.

As a singer who sings all kinds of stuff (mostly folk, but I have been known to wander into other genres as well) I am finding it hard to get booked into places because I don't write my own material. Since I am classified as "folk" and I don't write, it is automatically assumed that I must be a traditional singer. Then folks are surprised when half of my set is comprised of composed songs from the last 30 years or so.

I hasd an interesting experience on my last tour: I had many people from the audiences telling me that they were so glad that I wasn't a singer/songwriter. Yet, I have many singer/songwriter friends who say that term can be poison for them as well. It's all about labels, I suppose.

Now, I just tell people I am a singer of good songs and let them figure it out.

And Ron Olesko: get back to work! :-)

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 12:46 PM

My intended post of last night somehow did not make it here. I like nearly everything which has been written since then. The title of this thread looked singularly unpromising to me at the time. As a songwriter I see myself very much as a part of the tradition. I travel, I meet people, I listen to their stories and I try to retell them.
I love Ron's term "singer-songwhiners". (You shall have to copyright that one quickly, because it could be with us for some time!) In a way they are the antithesis of what writers like Jed Marum and Rick Fielding do so well, which is to retell history.
There are not many old songs which I sing well although I use a couple which I think I can make sense of. On the other hand, when I write, most of the tools which I use have long since been discovered. In that sense, the traditional songs provide the templates for what I am doing. I want to hear a lot more old songs which are good songs. It matters nothing to me whether a song is old or new. It matters whether the song is good or bad. I think that is the only distinction which most people care about.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:18 PM

I don't know how it is in other countries, but I think part of the problem in the US is that music royalties on live performances are charged against the venue, since of course there's simply no way of following every performer around to see what songs, the rights to which are owned by other people, the performer performs at each gig. Any venue that has music for the public, live or recorded, has to pay license fees to ASCAP and BMI, or at least is supposed to, based on the seating capacity of the venue, I think. (And, as I understand it, those royalties are disbursed to the songwriters on the basis of the amount of radio play, not live performances. So if you're a songwriter who has written songs that are getting sung by every would-be folksinger in every bar in the country, but are not getting played on the radio, other people get your money.)

So if a small venue hires as entertainment a singer-songwriter who does his/her own material, exclusively, they can refuse to pay license fees on the basis that the performer owns the rights to all the material that's being performed, and has waived royalties in consideration of getting paid to perform. At least that's the way I understand it. I know that some venues will only hire singer songwriters that do only their own material, and I think that's the logic involved. I've been wrong before, once or twice in the far dead past.

The interesting thing is that the same scam should work if the singer did all traditional, public domain stuff, or a mixture of his/her own songs and P D material. But I guess it doesn't. Of course so many figpuckers have copyrighted traditional songs that it's hard to tell what's PD anyway.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM

Just for the record, I don't want anyone to ever think that I don't love singer-songwriters. I do. I love most of them. And I write lots of songs myself. It's the downward spiral I'm sensing that has me concerned, and it obviously has Arnie concerned as well. Yes, JohnB, there are LITTLE festivals in Ontario that promote traditional music, including Millrace and Octoberfolk, and there is the Tottenham Bluegrass festival, but there are a lot more festivals, and bigger ones, in this province (and in the OCFF) than these. I truly believe that if a festival is going to be part of the OCFF, it should include and promote trad. as well as singer-songwriters.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:45 PM

I'm used to using the term "snigger-snogwriters" but the "whiners" bit is far more descriptive of a particularly prevalent type of contemporary song (and singing style). Another good quote I've seen is "songs in the key of I". I think that's significant - writing songs in the first person requires a lot of skill and awareness not to slide into a pit of sentimental self-indulgence.

Hi Debra - I think of your repertoire (what little I know of it) as half traditional songs... it's that half-full/half-empty thing! In theory you ought to do well, as instead of writing your own songs you are free to choose the best of the contemporary repertoire. It's the beginning of that filtering process in the Viking proverb mentioned earlier - "only good swords become old swords".

Ron Olesko's remark about a music genre looking for an audience rings a bell too. I've been to folk clubs full of singer-songwriter-guitarists where I'm convinced that the only reason why they were all there was to sing their stuff: none of them was interested in hearing the others. A clue to this was the number who left after they'd done their bit....

I don't think of them as folk singers. Some of them are obviously wannabe pop stars - not the same thing at all.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:46 PM

Reading that last post by Midchuck, I started speculating whether there are places where they insist on having a songlist to look over before they allow singers to perform? In case they sing someone else's song.

This whole idea of treating songs simply as property really does poison the waterhole. People up the thread have been saying that all traditional songs started off being made up by someone - but that's only true in the sense that they start of with something that someone made up, but that's probably not going to be what came down to us.

In the process of being passed along, songs change. People mishear lines and sing them differently, and they forget verses and cobble together a half-remembered replacement. You end up with different versions. And then someone mixes together different versions...

That is the process by which some great songs have been created. Treating songs simply as property is liable to get in the way of that happening.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:54 PM

Anahata & Alanabit (& anyone else) - feel free to use "singer-songwhiner". I wouldn't copyright it, I prefer to have it part of the folk tradition!!!   :)   (Just remember where you heard it!!)

I too echo what Blackwalnut said - I love singer songwriters (as opposed to singer-songwhiners!)   I also love traditional music and source singers.   The fact is, I don't have to make a choice of "one or the other".   Festivals should be the same way.

Mark Ross quoted Utah Phillips. I remember hearing Utah say something to the effect that once a song is written and sung for an audience, it belongs to all of us. Of course an artist should be recognized and compensated for their work, but his point is well taken.

I will go back to work now!   Thanks Debra!! :)

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:16 PM

Fortunately in and around Toronto there are good opportunities to get involved to hear and play different forms of tradtional music on a regular basis. Certainly in the folk music clubs - Flying Cloud/Tranzac Club, Acoustic Harvest, Hugh's Room have their share, and there is quite a bit of Irish, bluegrass, and some country dances to be had in other venues. There are a few song circles and jam sessions around as well. Yes Millrace and Goderich Celtic College have traditional music as their main agenda at their festivals, and specialised fiddle/stepdance events (lets face it - these are unique), but most other Ontario Folk festivals do not. They may have some acts on their rosters that are trad or trad based, but for the most part it looks as if those acts are becoming less frequent every year especially at the bigger festivals where you would think there would be room for a lot of diversity.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:27 PM

I think one thing that is happening is that there are many venues and festivals that don't want to take risks any more. As a friend of mine said "Back in the day if you trusted the taste of a concert promoter, you'd just go to the show even if you hadn't ever heard of the singer." I am ETERNALLY grateful to the venues that did book me on this last tour as I was relatively unknown to them until now. I am also grateful to DJs like Ron O and others who play my music.

Here in Boston, I do see the same singer/songwriters recycled year after year in the coffeehouses. It is really sad to me that some of these presenters will not make the effort to try to hear anyone different or new. I do understand the "butts (or bums for you UK'ers) in seats" reasoning, but there are very successful venues and festivals who DO take chances on new or unknown artists and do quite well. Ron mentioned New Bedford Summerfest, (a festival that I have performed in) as a wonderful example of how you can put Jeff Davis and Ellis Paul on the same stage and it works!

Anahata-one of the things I definitely never run out of is material. It is a filtering process: I have very high standards when choosing material. I have had a number of songwriters send their stuff to me, yet, unfortunately, the material for whatever reason is not of high enough quality for me to want to use it.

Midchuck-as far as the PRO situation with venues goes, I am not about to enter into THAT fray, but there are many complicated issues surrounding the idea of venues booking ONLY performers of original material, etc., and much of the talk that is circulating around that is full of misconceptions. There are some great discussions on the subject at the Folk Alliance Archives . Put PRO in the search thingy and see what comes up.

I guess if I could have a perfect world in folk music, I would want all the different types of folk to be acknolwedged. It is sad to me that
quality musicans are excluded from venues and festivals due to the labels that are placed on them. We are folk whether we perform traditional or composed material and we should all learn to appreciate one another.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:32 PM

It's great to read all of the comments on this thread, but sometimes I think that we get into such a tangle about the words Traditional and Singer-Songwriter. The issue here isn't whether somebody wrote it or not. Would it be useful to approach this discussion using the terms OLDER folk music and NEWER folk music? If we can use those words, can we then say that some of us are seeing far more NEW folk music at Ontario Folk Festivals than we are seeing OLD folk music, and that we'd like to see more of a balance between the two once again?

One of my favourite performers right now is someone who played at Mariposa (a last-minute invitation, as I recall) this summer - Jim Moray. He's a Brit who takes old ballads and performs them in a very young, fresh way. Some would say his CD "Sweet England' is over-produced', but I think the production supports the ballad. The story is always central to the song, and the production supports the song. When I heard him live, he created the same intense passion for the stories he was singing, every single time (even with serious jet lag!). His style was accessible, and skillfully done, and it was absolutely wonderful to have a ballad singer at the Mariposa Folk Festival. The audience loved him.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:40 PM

Interesting to read this - I went to an interview with Eileen McGann at Whitby (UK) in August this year, and she mentioned the increasing difficulty of getting gigs (even though she sings both trad and her own songs) and the tendency of what used to be folk festivals to book acts that are big crowd pullers but not really folk.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:44 PM

I wonder why it is historically that we have a thread here debating trad v singer/song-writer. If you wind the clock back 50 years, and look at the British or American folk revival. you would see a lot of people in folk clubs etc who shared an interest in folk music. They also, naturally, had interests in other genres ofmusic, which would also get the odd airing at the clubs. So mixed with the folk music you would get the occasional bit of barber shop,jazz, fiddlers playing Flight of the Bumble Bee,rock'n'roll, self-penned songs etc etc. Finer and dandy.
    OK, fast forward to now. Those occasional people trying out the odd song they've written have now become so important numerically that, judging by this thread, they have actually driven out the folk music from the festivals. But why them? Why not the barbershop enthusiasts? Why didnt punk rock take over folk festivals? Or flamenco guitarists? Gregorian chant? Intriguing, eh?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:46 PM

Agreed, Kitty. I am a HUGE, MEGA, make that SUPERMEGA Bruce Cockburn fan, but I'm not sure that he should have been the headliner at Mariposa FOLK festival this year.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:54 PM

Greg, the examples you gave are very specific musical styles. Folk music encompasses a variety of styles under it's umbrella. I do think that you will find a bit of barber shop, jazz, etc being booked in venues today, but they are more of a novelty - just as they were 50 years ago.

"Rock'n'roll" has similar issues. Justin Timberlake was booked to open for the Rolling Stones in Toronto. Rock, pop, or ??? Would you book a punk band on a bill with Lynard Skynard?

Folk music is a bit more accepting, and I don't think the trad. vs. singer-songwriter issue that we are discussing reflects the scene as a whole. Yes, there are numerous festivals that cater to only one style of "folk" music, but I question how long they will last.

As to Black Walnut's suggestion that we label it "old" and "new" - that will never fly.   I can't imagine any performer would willingly accept the term "old folksinger".   Folk music is SUPPOSEDLY timeless.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:01 PM

Ron: yes they were indeed novelties at the folk clubs. My point was that so was the singer/song-writing at the time. You'ld go for the folk music, but you might try out a song you'ld written or a bit of Bach or something for an occasional novelty. But why did ONE of those novelties grow and grow and come to dominate parts of the scene, even apparently driving out the music that started the festivals in the first place, according to some posters?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM

Hey, Ron, my nearly 50th birthday is tomorrow. I feel like an old folksinger, and proud of it!

~b.w.