Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?

Subject: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:07 PM

not sure if this is folklore or BS, please feel free to move it to where it should go.

I'm listening to Forlorne Weaver, part of the lyrics is "we Tarried and shifted", what does Tarried mean?
I guess shifted means moved from place to place looking for work?

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:11 PM

John, I've heard 'tarried' used for waited, as in "we tarried there a while"="we waited there a while." Does that make sense in the context of the song?

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:15 PM

sort of art, perhaps they waited for work to turn up, and it didn't , so they "shifted" to another area?

I did look in a dictionary for tarried, but there is no entry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:18 PM

To linger or to delay- since the 14th century, any good dictionary. The act is called tarriance, to add a two-bit word.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:26 PM

I don't know the song so I don't have the context, however, many trades have their own special vocabulary, especially the older ones. Does it make sense as something a weaver might do? 'Shifting' could easily refer to raising the warp threads to pass the shuttle through.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:28 PM

Thanks Q, any idea of the history of the word tarried, ie is it scottish, welsh etc, or some kind of dialect?
I know weaving was a common trade in Lancashire UK, perhaps it is lancashire dialect? anyone know?

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:35 PM

Perfectly normal Standard English word, though perhaps a little old-fashioned nowadays. Etymology is uncertain; Chambers has "History obscure: the form agrees with O[ld] E[nglish] tergan, to irritate, the meaning with O[ld] Fr[ench] tarier".

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:39 PM

Malcolm-I'm even more confused now! ;-)
does it mean irritated?
What is a tarier?

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:17 PM

Those words don't matter; they are just educated guesses at where the word "tarry" may have come from. They don't affect its meaning now.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:45 PM

Malcolm is right. The word showed up in print in England c. 1375. Comparisons with similar words in Old English and Old French are just that; the source is conjectural.
Not that the difference between Old French and Old English means much; after the Norman conquest, both became intermixed in the common English language. The English already had much vocabulary from Old Teutonic and Norse sources.
English is a great language because of its diverse roots and ability to absorb any words or meanings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:07 AM

Hi John, a couple of dfinitions for 'tarry' include

1. To loiter in a place, or 'hang about'
2. To leave a place slowly and reluctantly.

This would fit in OK with your interpretation .....

Give us more detail as to the song, mate. Is it Irish or Irish/American? Was the work railway or canal building? If so..

Check, Drill ye Tarriers Drill - I found the - Lyrics here.

The Tarriers were the "Navigators" (Navvies), who drilled and blasted the rock, like a pack of canine terriers, to start the holes for cuttings etc, for the 19thC UK and US canals and railways (also here in NZ). The debris was then shifted out by wheelbarrow etc...

Which could explain your "tarried and shifted", depending on the 'work' context of the song.

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:11 AM

Devilish Mary said the preacher tarried, meaning he took too long, so she "took the good book from his hands, and said that we were married."
Washington Irving claims a village in New York was a popular stop over for farmers at the market. It was too popular, and their wived complained they stayed too long, so they named the place Tarrytown.
The town exists, but I can't vouch for Irving's story of it's origins.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:49 AM

Tarrier seemingly comes from Terrier, but not known for certain. It is a railroad term (see thread 17796: Tarrier
Also see "Long Steel Rail," by Cohen. First applied to hard rock laborers; country of origin, immigrant or native-born, not part of the definition.

Certainly nothing to do with tarry- tarried.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:53 AM

There's nothing Irish or Irish American about this song; it is very firmly English, and belongs specifically to Lancashire. It is popularly known nowadays as The Four Loom Weaver, under which name Ewan MacColl recorded it from Becket Whitehead of Delph, Oldham, Lancashire, in 1947 (The Singing Island, 1960, 38). Mr Whitehead was nearly 80 years old, and had learned the song from his father, a handloom weaver and active Chartist.

You can see broadside editions of the song from 1850 at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Jone o' Grinfield

There was a whole series of Greenfield or Grinfilt songs, following from James Butterworth's original Jone o' Grinfilt. Various aspects of the song have been discussed here in the past, particularly, I think, the nature of "Waterloo Porridge". The search engine will find all sorts of stuff if asked.

"Tarry" here has nothing at all to do with "Tarriers", which was discussed at some length here a few years ago: Help: What is a tarrier.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: cord
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:01 AM

I thought it ment to get rid of something.
As when I taried up a letter from me own true love?

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:11 AM

Tarrytown is a corruption of Dutch Tarwen Dorp (Wheat Town).

Cord- that ought to bring on the tar and feathers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:34 AM

jOhn, if you want to look up an English word in a dictionary you need to look for the dictionary form. In the case of a verb (and "tarried" is a verb) the dictionary form is the infinitive without the "to". The infinitive is "to tarry", so the form you need to look up is "tarry". If you look up "tarried" of course you won't find anything. If you looked up "tarry" and didn't find anything either you've got a defective dictionary or it's not an English dictionary.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Menolly
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 03:27 AM

Just to muddy the waters - don't forget the other meaning- pertaining to tar !
However I seem to remember another song which mentions tarry woo. No Ihaven't missed a letter. I cannot rember whether that refered to the natural lanolin in wool of whether it was wool with a lot of tares or burrs in, which had to be got out before the wool could be processed.
"We tarried and shifted til we were quite fast."
We lingered and managed until we were very hungry

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: the fife flier
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:15 AM

Ry Cooder uses it in 'The Girls From Texas' - and it means in that context to put off (getting married)

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:35 AM

Tarry in the context of the song lyric quoted seems to mean "waited, hung around," that sort of thing.

One often sees quaint (pseudo) little notices saying things like, "Tarry a while" inviting the traveller to stop and rest (and buy a drink!)

I suppose it means much the same as 'dally'.   It's a perfectly normal English word. It's not in every day use, and would now be used for effect because it is slightly archaic.

Concise Oxford Dictionary has "archaic or literary: defer coming or going; linger, stay, wait; be tardy. Middle English, origin uncertain."

(Also 'Tarry' with a long 'a' "of or like or smeared with tar.") ;0)

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 08:53 AM

I think of 'tarry' as hanging around because you want to be where you are and don't really want to go go elsewhere, even if you feel you should go.

The meaning seems well demonstrated in the song Journey Home

No time to tarry here; no time to wait for you
No time to tarry here; I'm on my journey home

Marvelous song for group singing, since the solo part consists of one noun ('mourners', 'sinners', 'sisters', etc) at the beginning of each verse.

I note (haha) there is no tune.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:25 AM

Tarried is from the same root as tardy, but as for the other meaning, tarry oo, means wool smeared with tar. There's also the West of Scotland expression 'taurie fingered' (tarry fingered) stick fingered or thieving.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:30 PM

'Shifted' in this context surely means to do the best you can in poor circumstances - 'making shift'. Thats what I always thought anyway. Burl

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:39 PM

"I`ll tarry awhile longer", to wait or loiter, the word tarry was and still used occasionally here in the north of Ireland. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:43 PM

I should have added that "tarrier" has no remote connection with "tarry".
I have heard "tarrier" explained as a reference to Terrier [from terra earth], the original earth mover, in our dialect the wee dogs are pronounced as "tarriers". Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:03 PM

Let him go let him tarry,
Let him sink or let him swim,
He doesn't care for me
Annd I don't care for him.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM

Tarry woo' (or wool) is wool with tar on it. Tar (or pitch) was used by careless shearers to cover wounds inflicted on the sheep during shearing. It probably was extremely "ill to spin"

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Menolly
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 02:40 AM

Thanks Dick. It probably was !

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 05:48 PM

Mikefule, "dally" has long been used not only in the sense of lingering but also in the sense of being up to mischief, particularly sexual activity, a use still seen regularly in print in "dalliance." I have hear "tarry" used that way only very rarely.

Subject: RE: Folklore: or BS?, What does 'tarried mean?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:33 PM

The preferred meaning of dally is to act playfully, especially amorously, sez the American Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
In the Oxford English Dictionary, the obsolete meaning of to converse is listed first, but clearly marked as obsolete, and thus the current usage is the same as in North America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 05:02 AM

I live over the hill from greenfield, and have been involved in textiles for most of my working life. Shifters are people who move the cloth rolls, so shifting in this context would be moving the cloth up and down to the looms which were on the top floors to catch the most light. Tarrying locally means waiting around without work.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 05:57 AM

Just to muddy the waters, "to shift" sometimes was used to describe someone who did "shift work," i.e. one who showed up at the union hall and worked a shift if there was a job to do, or just sat around until time to go home if there wasn't.

I've heard: "How you been, Joe?" "Well I shifted for 6 months but I've been on regular for the last couple."

I don't know that the term was ever used regularly except on the coastal docks, but I've heard it from "lumpers"* with the moving van companies elsewhere.

* "lumpers" are the load/unload crews, usually hired locally by the driver, to load or unload furniture or other cargo. Most common in the furniture/home moving business, since other kinds of stuff usually loads or unloads at a dock where there are regular workers to do it.

(And other truckers call the furniture movers, drivers included, the "bedbuggers.")

I wouldn't think this usage would be applicable to the song, but then I don't know much about the weaving trade.

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:28 AM

Lumpers - may be related the expression "working on the lump" which is used in England. Meaning employed on the side, unofficially, without employment rights and tax and insurance and all that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM

Working "on the Lump" was handy for earning a few quid, nothing more rewarding than doing the Government out of money, but then, sure Gareth wouldn`t agree. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

The Owl and The Pussycat

O let us be married
Too long we have tarried
But what shall we do for a ring?

I would take the meaning as being simply delayed, hung around, waited, not been bothered, etc.   I don't think that there's any hint of dalliance.

Of course, we don't know how long they'd been planning this escapade.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Marta
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 01:33 PM

Matt McGinn's song which he wrote for his daughter says:

Tell me what the tea leaves tell me
tell me mumma do
do they say that I will be
as lovely mum as you
do they say that I will marry
or that I will have to TARRY
tell me what the tealeaves tell me
tell me mumma do

I had always taken it to be remain unmarried.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 02:28 PM

Celtaddict posted:
<>

Yes but...
Firstly, many words have several distinct or overlapping meanings. Here, we were talking about that aspect of the meaning of 'dally' which is more or less synonymous with 'tarry'.

Secondly, i think sexual or romantic dalliance is an extension of the meaning of 'dally' we have been discussing. One dallies with a pretty maid/ploughboy (as one's taste dictates) but not with one's spouse. And no, I don't mean, in the latter case, "Chance would be a fine thing...". Sexual dalliance is a sort of lingering on the roadside of life, stopping for a while to enjoy the pleasures offered. One dallies with a pretty maid/ploughboy when one really ought to be getting on with something else. To this extent, Tarrying (stopping longer than necessary/advisable, and enjoying the surroundings) and Dallying (stopping longer than er... advisable and enjoying the er... view... are very similar in sense.

But yes, Dally often has a sexual aspect, and Tarry never does, so the words overlap in meaning, but are not completely synonymous.

Someone once said there are no synonyms in the English language. I certainly can't think of another word for synonym. ;0)

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 01:07 AM

Synonymous in some contexts wi' "taigl't" [!]

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 03:23 PM

"My old man said, foller the van,
And don't dilly-dally on the way
Off went the van with me old man in it,
I follered after with the old cock linnet,
But I dillied and I dallied,
I dallied and I dillied,
Lorst me way, and dont know where to go.
Oh you can't trust the Specials, like the old time coppers,
When you can't find your way home."

I think that in this case it just means not getting a move on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 04:49 PM

Dally is derived from French 'to chat' and I suppose it means to pass the time of day leisurely, as McGrath of Harlow says 'not getting a move on'. Matt McGinn was trying to do a Scottish 'Que sera, sera' and 'tarry 'just happens to rhyme with 'marry'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 05:35 PM

"Dally is derived from French 'to chat'" And "dalliance" therefore would be equivalent to "chat up"...

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:11 PM

Dally was from the Old French dalier, which is obsolete in French. It pretty well kept its meaning in English up to the 15th century, when the idea of sport, play and wanton flirting came in, and became the usual meaning which persists today.
The meaning in the sense of to chat, linger, tarry is obsolete, as pointed out in a previous post.
It may persist in local dialect as in the poetic example given by McGrath.


Dilly-dally means to vacillate or to act with indecision, and became popular as a term in the 18th century. Applying one of IanC's dating methods, I presume McGrath's poem is no older than 18th c.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:21 PM

Not that old! My Old Man

"Dally" isn't a particularly uncommon word generally in England, I'd say. Even if people might be more likely to use another word for delaying - for example putting off replying to a letter - I think most people would probably understand it to mean that, if they heard it, in context.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 09:54 PM

I just read through this thread, and also the earlier one someone linked to, way up there somewhere.

Does no one remember the early commericial-folk-revival trio The Tarriers? They weren't as successful as the Kingston Trio or the Highwaymen or any of a bunch of others, but they managed to get themselves on (American) TV for a while there, I'm guessing around '63-64. I *think* one of the three played the big string bass, but I'm not sure. Naturally, they sang "Drill Ye Tarriers."

I always figured there were two essentially unrelated meanings of the word "tarrier":

(A) - One who tarries, i.e., hangs around, waits, delays, etc. I never thought the verb (to) "tarry" was an especially exotic word, even though it's not very commonly used. In a romantic/sexual context, the word seems to connote inactivity, non-participation, failure to respond, etc. -- *that* kind of delaying. As noted somewhere above, the word "dally" has the opposite connotation, even though both words mean to wait or to delay. One who dallies stays behind to engage in a bit of romance while the rest of the world keeps moving along.

(B) - A worker engaged in heavy-duty hammering and blasting, as in 19th century railroad and tunnel building. Who knows whether it comes from "terra" for earth, "terrier" for diging doggie, "terence" for being Irish and working all day for the sugar in your tay, or whatever.

One more thing -- to whoever offered the observation about the living language of English, that new and colorful verbal expression is alive and well in Ireland and Australia but "sadly not in North America " -- I *seriously* beg to differ!

We have more different kinds of people in more different subcultures here in the US than anywhere else, and everyone is rewriting the language all the time. You might not *like* all the neologisms (I certainly don't), but they're not all bad, they portray a very entertaining and very wide variety of viewpoints, and some of this stuff is gonna stay with us (tarry?) and become part of standard worldwide colloquial English. I mean, for crying out loud, we've got technocrats and hepcats, valley girls, speakers of Yiddish and Spanglish, Anglophiles -- you name it. Not to mention the huge and not-yet-fully-integrated African aspect of American culture. C'mon already!

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:52 PM

thanks everyone.john

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:31 AM

I have heard footballers in the north of Ireland described as "real Tarriers", which meant, they hustled and harried throughout the match. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: KateG
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:28 AM

You learns sumpin' every day on Mudcat. Here I thought that the "tarriers" in Drill Ye Tarriers was related to tarry in the sense of loiter or wait around, so in effect the boss was saying "Drill you lazy bums, drill."

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Heath
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

"shifted" to another dimension or frequency.. The third eye

Www.Beyonge.com

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

What, tho, does the DT mean by "Irish" at end of Don't Dilly Dally [My Old Man]?? It is lateC19/earlyC20 Cockney music-hall, probably the most famous of all those sung by the great Marie Lloyd.

"My Old Man is a music hall song written by Fred W. Leigh and Charles Collins, made popular by Marie Lloyd.
It is a humorous song, but it also reflects some of the hard aspects of working class life in London at the beginning of the 20th century." Wiki


~M~

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

It was recorded by the Clancy Bros. and Tommy Makem in the '60s in a medley with "They're Digging up Father's Grave to Build a Sewer." So what else could it be?

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 04:58 PM

OP: "we tarried and shifted"

In context: to remain and do everything one can to get by in the meanwhile. Esp. when others are leaving. Opposite of "shiftless."

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 11:30 PM

I thought "tarried" was a punishment closely related to being "featherried".

Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'tarried mean?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:30 AM

Only if having a conversation with Stanley Unwin.