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BS: The Biggest Question of the Century...
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Subject: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:17 PM In an article called Cosmic Reality Check Wired poses some really interesting questions about the paradigm change caused by the discovery that the universe is full of dark energy and dark matter, and all the space-time we thought we were so proud of is largely not the case in fact. I recommend it. Some of the salient questions: "This mysterious stuff pushes the universe apart. It forces the cosmos to expand. This is not the steady state model of Einstein's heyday, when the universe was static and conservative. It's not even the jazzy big bang model, where everything blew up way back in the beginning. We denizens of the 21st century live in a steady bang. The bang never went away - in fact, our natural habitat is bang. Three-quarters of the universe is dedicated to pushing itself open. It's a gigantic heaving that has worked from the first primal instants and always will. It's the very nature of space to expand. Human societies are always reshaped by their concepts of the basic nature of the universe. Copernicus damaged the infallibility of the church; Newton laid the foundation for the Enlightenment; Einstein spurred moral relativism. What will we make of our new knowledge? Are there political implications to the idea that most of the universe is untouchable, endlessly expanding, scarcely knowable? Will we finally get over our obsession with static utopias, sudden armageddons, limits, and closure? Is there philosophical comfort to be found in a silent, never-ending steady bang?" Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:12 PM "Incineration by WIMPS" will never occur as long as Arnold Schwarzzeneger is at the helm! Put Woody Allen in charge of America, and it might... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: mack/misophist Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:21 PM It's a change in standard theory. Hardly a paradigm shift. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rapparee Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:21 PM When I was in high school all I wanted was a continuous bang. Or a big one. Or a little one. Or even a goodnight kiss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: michaelr Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:51 PM People sometimes ask me about my waistline. I answer, "hey, the whole universe is expanding! Why buck the trend?" Amos, I know you're looking for some more serious insight here. I'll read the article and try to come up with some -- definitely an interesting question. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Bobert Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:56 PM Beam my up, ahhhhh, maybe not.... I'll get back to you on that one, Scottie... BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:59 PM Mack, consider that we always believed -- even after Einstein's shocks -- that space was a normal field and matter a normal occupant of it. Gravity was the constant function of mass, one blue planet's worth sufficient to induce acceleration at 9.6 meters per second per second. We now find that our model of the universe was woefully naive and "normal" matter an extreme minority and gravity inverted in the bulk of space. For my money that is a far reaching change in the basic model. I guess it is all relative, huh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:57 AM and string theory as a description of the universe is making a comeback!....sort of...if you can deal with 6-27 dimensions and some VERY strange concepts of 'small'... The thing is, this revelation about the 'continuous bang', etc., while quite far-reaching in the halls of acedemia, will not affect the man in the street much, the way Copernicus, Galileo and Giordano Bruno did. When some practical application of this starts affecting church theory and allows space travel and contact with aliens...THEN it will find its place in history. The trouble is, we have gotten so good at denial that a big BUCKET of 'dark matter' on the evening news (Fox, of course) would not raise many eyebrows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: NicoleC Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:47 AM I think there's some important historical links to major scientific discoveries and their effect on society. These things didn't happen overnight or even in the decade, but they were a big factor. I'm not sure it would apply today. Almost every day there's some big revelation in the science news. (I noticed Mudcat missed the big study that showed gender identity was a genetic trait... regardless of physical gender.) Instead of a particularly scientific study affecting us socially, I think the frenetic pace of science (compared to history) adds to the common mythology that we are all rushing around with no time to do anything, and we're too busy to stop and understand anything outside our little world. Fast food, shorter movies, etc., etc. We're obsessed with "fast" and every other advertisement is telling Mom she doesn't have time to spend with her kids or cook a healthy meal, but buying this minivan will cure that for her! The sheer volume of information available to us -- even pre-internet, but especially now -- is pretty overwhelming. This is predominantly fueled by scientific and technological advances. Socially, we are struggling to adapt. Ironically, instead of being truly busy, I suspect that modern humans WASTE more time that at any other point in history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rapparee Date: 31 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM Before y'all git goin' great guns on this, I think y'all oughta read this. Also a href="http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/3-3/musha-final.pdf">this, as well as similar sorts of stuff. Shucks, the implications fer Einstein's work along are downright staggerin'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 03 - 10:22 AM oh my goodness! Not "anomalous vacuum fluctuations"!!! Why, this will mean that my old Kirby is in the mainstream of modern physics! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:01 AM I know very little about science, but I believe in the possibility of the impossible. There are many unexplainable things that science may one day explain - we just don't have the means to get there yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM Thanks for that link, Nicole! I did miss that story and I am glad you caught me up. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:36 AM The biggest question of the century, man... is this: When will I get the girl of my dreams?: Shania Twain Eether that or its: When will the friggin dog next door SHUT UP???!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Mark Clark Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:01 PM Okay, for the physics and cosmology wonks, I have a probably amateurish question. It used to be assumed that space is mostly empty; of course now we see that is not true. I think it's also believed that atoms are mostly empty, even emptier than space was supposed to have been. Just a few electrons, protons and neutrons that are so tiny and rare inside an atom that a logician might conclude that an atom is empty. As theoreticians have reasoned their way into subatomic particles, they've concluded that even these are not indivisible but seem to be mostly empty with a few almost negligible bits like quarks and such. Then, if I've got it right, even those unimaginably tiny tendancies may actually be composed of (mostly) space and superstrings. Superstrings are evidently indivisible but, if I remember rightly, are thought to be two-dimensional. Now if I recall my Euclidian geometry, two-dimensional things are only ideas and, lacking any higher dimension except time, have no real existence. So…
One can see from these questions that I've either read too many books or else not nearly enough books. I suppose in another of the infinately many parallel universes I've actually read all the books and learned the answers. Unfortunately, in this universe, I'm a little out of touch. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Cluin Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:08 PM And... the answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:30 PM Possibly pedantic point: "...the big study that showed gender identity was a genetic trait" I noticed that the article to which NicoleC linked there had a title including the word "may". "That showed" is perhaps going a step too far on the basis of that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Mark Clark Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:46 PM Cluin, Enjoyed the answer. Is that your site? Did you write that? Thanks. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Cluin Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:47 PM Oui. Mea culpa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rapparee Date: 31 Oct 03 - 04:43 PM For years I thought the answer was 42. (I figured it out myself!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Cluin Date: 31 Oct 03 - 05:17 PM Like the proctologist asked: "Did you use Metamucil or an enema, or did you work it out with a pencil?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM Old Fred Hoyle, with his insistant belief, right up to the day he died two years ago that somehow it would turn out that we lived in a steady state universe, would have really loved this. Incidentally, I understand the idea of the world as being continually created ("sustained")is a very familiar way of putting it for theologians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: NicoleC Date: 31 Oct 03 - 07:50 PM Scientists ALWAYS say "may" and "implies" and "supports." That's because neveitably they find out they haven't figured out the whole equation yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: NicoleC Date: 31 Oct 03 - 10:13 PM neveitably!? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 31 Oct 03 - 10:22 PM Well done -- you advanced the whole scientific process without even noticing!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: M.Ted Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:26 PM Nothing changed, Amos--everything works just the same as it did before, which, most likely, isn't properly accounted for with this idea, either-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: GUEST Date: 01 Nov 03 - 09:34 PM The biggest question of the century is, why aren't you guys - especially you left coasters - jumping through your keyboards to woo NicoleC away from the Mudcat? You can't deny that she's about as intellectually astute and intelligent as they come, if her posts are any indication. And if her attractiveness were in question, well, need I say more? C'mon, you let Banjo Bonnie get away, and JtS stole CarolC from under your noses. AnnaMill married an 'Outlander.' Big Mick, for all his silver-tongued chivalry, couldn't lure The Fair One out of Oz. WyoWoman was so frustrated with all this 'universe' theory she took a job at Mother Earth. If NicoleC hasn't already married that guy from a continent away (or a coast away, I forget which), I'd say time's a wastin.' Sure, all this superstring, space-time continuum theorizing is really, really fascinating. But if you don't set that aside for the time being, before you know it, there won't be any Mudcat beauties left to theorize about. And that, my friends, would be a woefully major change in the Mudcat paradigm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:29 AM I still want to know "Who put the bomp in the bomp sh bomp sh bomp." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 09 Nov 03 - 02:34 AM Ah, Guest -- for once I am not going to disagree with ye!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Hrothgar Date: 09 Nov 03 - 09:51 PM Is this why I have trouble closing my wardrobe door? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 09 Nov 03 - 11:16 PM seems to me it was de Selby who noted, in the last century, the existance of black air.... The stars are matter, we are matter, it doesn't really matter.....Captain Beefheart |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rustic Rebel Date: 09 Nov 03 - 11:21 PM Nothing is constant when we talk about energy and living forces..As energy changes so does the entire system of universe. All is flowing in a vibratory realm of non-constant motion. We all have known that the universe is a moving vessel, so why not go with the theory of a continuous bang. Ever changing, always moving, always creating new. OK Amos, I can agree to a theory like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: GUEST,Schrodinger Date: 10 Nov 03 - 09:33 AM Have you seen my cat? He's around somewhere, or somewhere around, or maybe not. Fluffy li'l guy, a Manx you know. I need him for an experiment. I'm hoping to prove or disprove the existence of a steady-state continuous Big Bang. Walter Heisenberg is here to help me, except of course that by doing the experiment we'll invalidate it so me an' Walt are gonna just sit around and eat pretzels and drink beer. We'd watch football on TV, but then we'd affect the outcome of the game. When we'd drink enough beer we used to sing, but then we realized that by singing we changed the song, so now we just think the music. The neighbors say that it sounds better that way anway. Anyway, if you find my cat, don't send her home, because then she'll be around when I need him. Thanks for your help, even if it did mess things up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: muppett Date: 10 Nov 03 - 10:43 AM If the universe is everything & it's expanding, what is it expanding into?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 10:56 AM It's not expanding into anything except cosmic Ground or perhaps Unbeing...or mathematical fungible potential....it's expanding from within. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: muppett Date: 10 Nov 03 - 11:02 AM Isn't Cosmic ground, unbeing or mathematical fungible potential (?????????????????) something and if it's expanding then it must be getting bigger or else it wouldn't be expanding would it!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Bill D Date: 10 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM durn, it's tricky to discuss, ain't it? The problem is, we can use language to refer to stuff that has no actual existence. "Cosmic ground" or "emptiness" aren't exactly 'places'...but they BECOME places after something fill them...except, by being filled, they are no longer what they were...or weren't, as it were. Philosophers like Husserl, Heigegger, Wittgenstein, etc...spend many pages trying to discuss "being" in some way that we can wrap our poor heads around, but it seldom does much good for most folks. Physicists and Astronomers have arugued for years whether 'space' were curved, flat,.. and if curved, which way, and they have changed their collective minds several times. And far from being satisfied with deciding what the "Universe" is, or how big it is, or what is 'outside' it, some masochists want to postulate more the one universe! It's all pretty durn big, and pretty durn confusing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 11:32 AM Unbeing is not "something". It is the very opposite. You're confusing a semantic class with a reality. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: muppett Date: 10 Nov 03 - 11:42 AM Well Amos please define expansion please |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rapparee Date: 10 Nov 03 - 11:58 AM I think that a good chunk of the problem is that we're not used to dealing on the quantum level. Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the Universe." Einstein was wrong, and towards the end of his life was changing his way of thinking. So many things can happen at the quantum level that are incomprehensible or impossible in our macro world! For instance, photons have been accelerated to 4.7c, and have even carried music at that speed, yet because a photon can in no way means that I can travel that fast. John Stuart Bell's theorem is another example -- it would certainly be great if it worked in the macro world. (No, I don't know if playing back Mozart's Symphony No. 40 from photons traveling at transluminal speed meant that the recording was over before it was started. If you find out, let me know, okay?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: M.Ted Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:10 PM I've done recording sessions that were over before they were started, but it was not physics, it tended to be bad planning, reinforced with personality conflicts-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Peace Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:11 PM OK, a unified field theory might be important; maybe the uncertainty principle is crucial; maybe cold fusion could play a vital part in the future of humankind; maybe crop circles herald cross-dimensional contact. But no one has answered my question. Who put the bomp in the bomp sh bomp sh bomp? Who was that man? I'd like to shake his hand, because he made my baby fall in love with me. Let's get on the stick, here. C'mon guys and gals! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:13 PM If you are talking about the universe, it means adding space. Inside the universe, it means increasing the volume of pre-extant space occupied by an object or entitiy. You don't expand the physical universe by expanding into space. The physical universe presumably contains "all" known space, although there could be other interpretations. I don't understand the universe any better than anyone else, but I do know it can be a serious error to project the scale and mechanisms you are used to seeing onto the cosmically large or inversely the sub-atomic. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Peace Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:23 PM OK, if no one will answer my question: There once was a fellow named Bright, Who travelled much faster than light; He left one day In a relative way, And returned the previous night. (Anon.) Now I'm going into a worm hole. ?tuoba daerht siht s'tahw oS eicurb |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 01:04 PM Brucie: You're the answer. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Nov 03 - 01:19 PM Mark, a recent programme I saw suggested that some current theories liken our universe to a slice of bread in a big loaf. We are limited to perceiving the whole loaf or other slices, by our inability to speculate beyond about 7 dimensions, although some, somehow, have speculated that there may be up to 11 dimensions. The speculation was that big bangs occur, whenever these slices in the loaf bump up against each other. I think when the next one happens we will be toast, if not before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Peace Date: 10 Nov 03 - 01:38 PM THANK YOU, AMOS! B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Mark Clark Date: 10 Nov 03 - 02:20 PM Metchosin, Thanks. I guess that means we'd all better quit loafing about. I've read Dr. Michio Kaku's book Hyperspace in which he discusses the likelihood that there are around 10 to 12 dimensions. He shows that at higher dimensions (I believe he specified 10) mathematical formula may be constructed showing that all observed energy phenomena are explained by a single theory. What has made that problem so difficult in the past is our artificial limitation of three or four dimensions. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Nov 03 - 03:20 PM Which reminds me of a cartoon I saw many years ago called, if I remember correctly, Flatland, in which a bunch of little objects moved around a plate and bumped into each other until one of the little creatures discovered Up and got into a lot of trouble. I used to think of this cartoon, when I spent years staring through a microscope at wee beings that had no ability to perceive of my exsistence and wonder who was staring down their microscope at me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 06:13 PM Metch: Flatland was a classic very short book -- which I guess got turned into a cartoon later. And the key scene in it is exactly that point where the two-dimensional creatures bump into a three-dimensional pole for the first time. Great book! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Nov 03 - 09:22 PM Didn't know it was based upon a book Amos, I'll keep my eye out for it. Another great one I remember was The Space Child's Mother Goose. I was particularly fond of This Is the Theory That Jack Built and I think my kids learned something like the following before they learned what it was based upon: Possible-probable my black hen She lays eggs in the relative when She doesn't lay eggs in the positve now Because she's unable to postulate how. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 03 - 10:06 PM Love it!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Nov 03 - 10:37 PM Wow! I found it! From _A Space Child's Mother Goose by Frederic Winsor This is the theory that Jack built. This is the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack Built. This is the mummery hiding the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack built. This is the summary based on the mummery hiding the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack built. This is constant K that saved the summary based on the mummery hiding the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack built. This is the erudite verbal haze, cloaking constant K, that that saved the summary, based on the mummery hiding the flaw that lay in the theory that Jack built. This is the turn of a Plausible Phrase That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze Cloaking the constant K That saved the Summary Based on the Mummery Hiding the Flaw, that lay in the theory that Jack built. This is the gross confusion and bluff which hung on the turn of the turn of a plausible phrase That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze Cloaking the constant K that saved the summary based on the mummery Hiding the Flaw, that lay in the Theory that Jack built . This is the cybernetics and stuff, based on the gross confusion and bluff which hung on the turn of the Turn of a Plausible Phrase That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze Cloaking the constant K that saved the summary based on the mummery, hiding the Flaw, That lay in the Theory that Jack built. This is the button to start the machine To make with the cybernetics and stuff Based on the gross confusion and bluff Which hung on the turn of the Turn of a Plausible Phrase That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze Cloaking the constant K That saved the Summary Based on the Mummery Hiding the Flaw, That lay in the Theory that Jack built. This is the Space Child with Brow Serene Who Pushed the Button to Start the Machine That made with the Cybernetics and Stuff Without Confusion, exposing the Bluff That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase And, shredding the Erudite Verbal Haze Cloaking Constant K Wrecked the Summary Based on Mummery Hiding the Flaw And Demolished the Theory that Jack built. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Kaleea Date: 11 Nov 03 - 01:25 AM Biggest Question of the century is: How do we recall bushlite?!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 11 Nov 03 - 06:59 AM Great stuff, mets! Thanks. I just put it into circulation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Rapparee Date: 11 Nov 03 - 09:08 AM I thought that I had the only copy of "The Space Child's Mother Goose" in existence! Automation is vexation Quaterenions are bad Analysis situs Is merely detritus I wonder: Have I been had? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Bill D Date: 11 Nov 03 - 11:14 AM one more: Three jolly sailors from Blaydon-on-Tyne They went to sea in a bottle by Klein. Since the sea was entirely inside the hull The scenery seen was exceedingly dull. the book is back in print found at this page which is a subset of this page where they sell Klein bottles I NEED a Klein Stein! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 11 Nov 03 - 01:10 PM Rapaire, doesn't it feel good to know you are not alone...Now if only I could find someone who read their children the Space Child's Mother Goose and taught them their ABC's using Amphigorey....M is for Maud who was swept out to sea...N is for Neville who died of ennui....I often wondered what impact it had on them when they were small. Thanks Bill, I had no idea what a Klein bottle was until now, consequently the significance of the rhyme. I want the big one! It would make a great habitrail for my daughter's rats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Metchosin Date: 11 Nov 03 - 01:20 PM ...rats?...the closest I'll probably ever get to grandchildren....hmmm.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Amos Date: 11 Nov 03 - 03:37 PM Mets: IIRC, it is a Moebius Strip rotated into three dimensions. The bottles don't quite seem to capture the magical part though.,.. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Biggest Question of the Century... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Nov 03 - 03:46 PM However, as a habittrail for pet rats, you must remember that they would always be on the outside. Of course, you could redefine that as always being on the inside, but..... And using a Klein Stein, it would be interesting to try and put oneself outside of a few beers (without spillage) Nigel |
