BS: Indians in England

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: Marje
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:08 PM

Looking back over the thread, it seems to me that most of us have not used the terms interchangeably, but have chosen the term that most accurately expresses what we want to say.

But I take your point, there is still a careless tendency for the English to assume that Britain and England are the same thing. I can't believe it when I hear BBC presenters speculate as to whether Charles will ever be "King of England". (Not without some drastic political changes, he won't.)

It might not seem that important to some, but on an international forum like this, it can only cause confusion among those of other nationalities if the English don't appear to realise that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are British but not English. How can we expect other nations to understand this if the English still get it wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: weerover
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 05:38 AM

My point was that the terms English and British have been used interchangeably in this thread as they often are elsewhere.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:33 PM

The thing is, people just don't seem to use the term "English" in this context. So, for example, you have people saying "British Asians" or "Black British", but never, so far as I have ever heard, never "English Asians" or Black English". It's not logical.

If you ask people in England their nationality, regardless of their ethnic background, it's a toss-up whether they say "I'm English" or "I'm British". Assuming they were either/both.

"English identity" is not a straightforward thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:41 PM

Weerover, they were responding to my original request, which was specifically for information about Indians in England, for a paper I'm writing on English identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: weerover
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:13 PM

Dave O and McGrath in postings above repeat the (frequent, but irritating) mistake of equating England with Britain. Personally, I believe the sooner it ceases to be a mistake the better.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:40 PM

Most Muslims will be from Pakistan or Bangladesh, not India.

True enough - but the Muslim population of India is in fact not that much lower than that of Pakistan or Bangla Desh. This CIA website is a good place to check figures like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:56 PM

Indio-Anglans?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: Marje
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:25 PM

The term commonly accepted as polite in Britain at the moment is the somewhat inaccurate "Asian". This usually covers people of Indian and Pakistant descent, and it's a term they often use themselves. I think the problem with the more obvious words is that "Indian" suggests American Indian to many people. Also, the people in question are more likely to be Pakistani, and the term "Paki" is now often used by racists as a term of abuse, like "nigger". Thus the term has become tainted with these racist overtones.
"Asian" ia pretty silly because there are also lots of British people of Chinese/Hong Kong origin, who are also "Asian" in the geographical sense. These groups are increasingly being referred to as "oriental", which is also a bit vague....

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:07 AM

Most Muslims will be from Pakistan or Bangladesh, not India. Sikhs are usually referred to as Sikhs. You will sometimes hear Hindus referred to as "East African" or "Ugandan" Asians as the community there was expelled by Idi Amin and make up a significant proportion of the Hindu community here.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: LadyJean
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:17 AM

Young Premchand, in Swissvale, PA, had friends in school who wondered about his unusual name, and his dark complexion. "My father's an Indian," young Premchand said. So, his friends all came to his house to see his father's warbonnet, and bow and arrow. Some terms are a little confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 09:55 PM

Thank you...that's helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 06:10 PM

Someone born in England with Indian parents - the appropriate term, if needed, would be a British Indian. Or the term British Asian is also used, which would also include people with roots in Pakistan, or Bangla Desh or Ceylon.

Subject: RE: BS: Indians in England
From: CraigS
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 05:56 PM

Anglo-Indians are left-overs from mixed marriages in the colonial days - they are Indian people who generally speak Hindi, but have European names and are mainly Christians.

The polite name for an Indian is Indian. An Indian is not ethnic to Britain because, despite common usage, "ethnic" means "born in a place".

There are three states of British citizenship which apply to those from former British colonies; one is that the person has all the rights of a native Briton (and therefore is a citizen of the EEC), the second is that the person has rights to take up residence in Britain (but not the EEC),the third is that the person has British citizenship but no right of residence in Britain.


What people have to go through to take up residence in Britain depends on which residence status they have. A child born in Britain is not automatically a British citizen, and its residence status depends on the status of its parents. In many cases, such a child is in a position to choose its own nationality - I know of two brothers born in Birmingham, one of whom is British, and the other Ghanaian.

Subject: BS: Indians in England
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 04:32 PM

I need some information for a paper-to clarify a couple of points:
    1. Is there a common (and polite) name for Indians living in the UK...the equivalent of Anglo-Indians, except the reverse?
    2. Are immigrants to the UK from former Commonwealth nations automatically citizens, or is there an application/approval process?
    3. Are children born in the UK automatically citizens, regardless of the citizenship status of their parents?