BS: Give 'em hell, Al

Subject: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 03:37 PM

It's about time someone started speaking out, more! Take a look at this:

Yesterday, former Vice President Al Gore spoke to a packed audience of almost 3,000 MoveOn supporters about the Bush administration's attacks on our basic freedoms. Not mincing words, Mr. Gore said,

"I want to challenge the Bush Administration's implicit assumption that we have to give up many of our traditional freedoms in order to be safe from terrorists.

"Because it is simply not true.

"In fact, in my opinion, it makes no more sense to launch an assault on our civil liberties as the best way to get at terrorists than it did to launch an invasion of Iraq as the best way to get at Osama Bin Laden.

"In both cases, the Administration has attacked the wrong target.

"In both cases they have recklessly put our country in grave and unnecessary danger, while avoiding and neglecting obvious and much more important challenges that would actually help to protect the country.

"In both cases, the administration has fostered false impressions and misled the nation with superficial, emotional and manipulative presentations that are not worthy of American Democracy.

"In both cases they have exploited public fears for partisan political gain and postured themselves as bold defenders of our country while actually weakening not strengthening America."


Full text and/or audio may be found HERE. DON'T FORGET TO VOTE the shrub OUT!!

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 07:30 PM

As Harry Truman once said when someone shouted "Give 'em hell, Harry."

"I don't give them hell, I tell them the truth, and they THINK it's hell."

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 08:18 PM

We'd have been so unbelievably better off right now if Gore had actually been able to take office. No doubt about it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 08:39 PM

Yeah, 9-11 most probably wouldn't have happened and the Founding Fathers wouldn't be trying to dig their way out of their graves to set things right...

The three concepts that facists hate are liberty, equality and fraternity, which all evolved from the French Revolution. Bush and Co. seem to have the problems with these values...

I hate to keep using the word "facist" when referring to Bush and Co. but I'm reading Russ Bellant's "Old Nazis, the Right Wing and the Republican Party" and so much of this stuff just sticks to the Bushites. And the book was written over 10 years ago...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 08:49 PM

But the French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 09:04 PM

Gracious. Change the names of the titles and people, i.e. Emperor t president, nobility to administration figures, peasants to labor, and it could be talking about the US!
http://members.aol.com/agentmess/frenchrev/summary.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 12:06 AM

Well, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest 9/11 wouldn't have happened. It was in planing for a long time, and recent Democratic administrations haven't been "acceptable" to these extremists either. 9/11 was about attacking Bush, it was about attacking America's history of foreign policy in the Middle East, with, I think, doses of intolerance to a tolerant society. Can you imagine what Osama thought of Clinton?!

I think that the 2000 election and subsequent events have done more to shape Gore's character than any other event in his adult life. He was always wishy-washy, but now he's speaking up and doing it loudly. Adversity does that to some folks, or maybe it's just that he has nothing else to lose. I think Gore wouild make a much better President now than he would have just 3 years ago.

But the French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution.
But the American revolution was inspired by French philosophy. The French and the Americans share many basic ideals, and without each other I suspect we both would be very different countries today.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 12:13 AM

I live next door to a National Guard armory. In the wake of 9-11 I was deeply concerned that terrorists might try to bomb it. I carefully watched for suspicious characters, and wondered how I would evacuate myself and my cats, if necessary.
Two years later, I listen, carefully, for terror alerts, because I know if they call one the @#$%^&!!! Guard will be at the @#$%^&*!!! Armory, and there won't be any place to park on my street. Most of these @#$%^&*!!! alerts are called for political reasons, not because Osama wants to blow up Pittsburgh, or even someplace important. I want the Shrub back in Texas so badly I can taste it.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 12:45 AM

There is a chance that 9/11 wouldn't have happened with Gore as president, simply because he might have listened to all the warnings that the White House was given.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 01:12 AM

True, and good point. He also might not have called off the Clinton plan left waiting on Bush's desk to hunt down Bin Laden in 2000 -- although I'm not sure that Osama's removal from the picture would have stopped the attacks from going ahead.

So perhaps I'll stick to the idea that Gore being in office wouldn't have stopped the attacks -- but I conceed that it might, possibly, have prevented its success.

9/11 was about attacking Bush...
Typo correction: 9/11 wasn't about attacking Bush...

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 10:51 AM

Sorry to disapoint all of you but Bush will get elected again with a bigger vote,my brother has just returned from the US and he says the people are insular enough to take more notice of domestic issuses, an improving economy, than far away wars. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 11:46 AM

take more notice of domestic issues, an improving economy, than far away wars...then they will also notice there is still a huge amount of Americans without jobs, without healthcare, without basic human needs AND soon, no overtime pay if the shrub gets his way, despite what Congress has said. IF they pay attention to those things, as well as the body bags coming home, he will NOT be elected for the first time...(he stole it last time, was NOT elected.)Most people I know are in much worse shape, financially, than they were when he stole office. They will pay attention to that, imo.

I thought this was quite interesting, from draft gore.com:

Gore in Statistical Tie With Bush, Leads All Democrats

A major poll conducted by Zogby Int. for Draft Gore shows the country split evenly between Al Gore and George W. Bush (46% to 48%, within the poll's margin of error). Gore leads Bush among independents by 47% to 43%. The poll also shows that half the voters in America believe Gore would have won in 2000 had all the votes been counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 11:51 AM

A couple of undeniable sidebars involving 9/11 are:

1. The Bush administration did an about face in the Middle East in not continuing the tireless efforts to remain in the mediation position that the Clinton administration had taken between the Isrealis and the Palestinians. This opened the door for more conflict rather than less.

2. The Bush name, after the "Highway of Death", in the Persian Gulf War, is not one that creates warm amnd fuzzy feelings in most folks in the Middle East, with perhaps Isreal being the lone exception.

As fir the economy improving? Growing jobs and growing *real* jobs are two different animals. By in large, labor is continuing to loose purchasing power from either not having jobs or, just as importantly, *under*employemnt. Most folks who are loosing their jobs are not finding jobs that pay as well as the old ones.

Just another 2 cents worth of thoughts...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 02:33 PM

"The poll also shows that half the voters in America believe Gore would have won in 2000 had all the votes been counted."

Of course if the other half of the people who had votes had used them it might have changed things as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 06:04 PM

I think you folks should start a draft Gore campaign! If not Gore, how about Hillary? Personally, though, I hope Dean gets the nomination from the Democratic Party. I don't think Gore could beat Bush, but the polls show that Hillary would run him a good race. I don't think she would win either though, and that's why she is holding off until 2008. By then, though, Jeb Bush will be ready for the White House!

I read somewhere recently that had Gore insisted on a full count in the whole state of Florida he well might have beat Bush. Too bad he only asked for a recount in those counties he thought favored Democrats. Othewise he might be in the White House today facing the same problems Bush faces. He and his Buddy had eight years to settle the terrorist problem, though, and they did nothing. That's why it has escalated into a major world-wide problem today. The "walk softly and do nothing about the terrorist problem Clinton administration."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 06:32 PM

Neither Clinton or Bush had or has a clue on how to fight terrorism.

Not creatin' it in the first place would be a good place to start.

A Department of Peace can work wonders toward promoting and making Peace *fashioable*.

Joining the World Court and not bailing out on one treaty after another certainly wouldn't hurt either.

Putting *real* support and resources into the United Nations is another step.

A "Peace Summit" in the Middle East (think Saudi/Mitchell plans here) would be a positive step.

A resignation of Resident Bush would be a major step.

And, BTW, Doug. If you'll recall, it was Bush that had his lawyers running to the Supremt Court to sue Gore. The argument; "Well, yer Honors and Honoress's. Ya' see, if you don't stop this recount then our client, Mr. Bush, could be harmed..." (Translations; "Pull the plug quick. We're gonna loose this one.")

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Give 'em hell, Al
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:23 PM

DougR, it's simply not true that Clinton did nothing to stop terrorism. That's one of those ideas spread over and over in the right-wing echo chamber of Fox, Limbaugh, MSNBC, etc. Clinton had a task force working on it during his second term, which suggested the idea of the Department of Homeland Security. The proposal was written and submitted, and Clinton backed it. However, it is a matter of both courtesy and practical necessity that a president very near the end of his term in office does not try to initiate sweeping reforms--and this was the biggest reorganization of government in a long time. So the plan was instead left unimplemented until the outcome of the election was clear. When Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court, it became obvious that the plan could not be implemented because it would mean a huge re-organization going on while the white house switched parties. So the proposal was left for Bush to implement as he saw fit.

It was Bush and his cronies who had the plan in front of them, but decided that terrorism was not a front-burner issue. In fact, if you go back to the campaign, they tried to paint Clinton-Gore as being unreasonably obsessed with foreign kooks like Bin Laden to the detriment of the really important issue: tax giveaways to wealthy people. After 9/11 they tried to blame it all on Clinton, and to take credit for the homeland security idea, and the media couldn't get their noses out of Bush's ass for long enough to point out the lies.

If Gore had been elected, Clinton/Gore would have had a department of homeland security up and running by September 2001. Whether it would have succeeded in halting the attacks is, of course, impossible to say.