BS: food

Subject: BS: food
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:31 AM

Just seen this quote from Billy Connolly in the news paper this morning, he said that he had just read a report about world starvation which said there were too many people and not enough food
to go round, Billy's reply, the obvious solution ' cannibalism '
eric

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: sledge
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:49 AM

I think that German chappie beat him to it!

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: JennyO
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 08:22 AM

Some people are seriously weird!

German cannibal-Murder or Suicide

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:31 AM

Well - there'd be more food if people stopped eating animals... ate the grain, etc directly. Hmm... too many people... still a problem!

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:04 PM

Yes, there'd be more food if people stopped eating animals... but it'd still be in the wrong places. There's too much food where there aren't so many people and too many people in places where food doesn't grow worth a damn. Anyway, the argument that livestock is eating food that people should be eating only holds up in developed countries where animals are actually fed by their owners. In most underdeveloped, overpopulated and underfed countries what livestock there is subsists on wild vegetation or slop not fit for human consumption.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:12 PM

Not always. I live in India (perfect example - "underdeveloped, overpopulated and underfed"), and some livestock here is fed soyabean, etc which would be good food for the poor, hungry masses. True - a lot of the livestock isn't fed stuff that would be edible... but not all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:29 PM

Soylent Green.

Chuck showed us the way. And now he's helping us hold onto the guns for the harvesting. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:35 PM

By the way. Billy Connolly, though a comic genius, isn't very original with this one.

It was suggested by Jonathan Swift, a fine satirist in his own day, many years ago to deal with the problems of starvation in Ireland in his famous "A Modest Proposal".

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM

The first thing my Geography professor told us in college was, "Every problem we have can be boiled dowen to one thing. Too many people."
I thought, "You are heartless." but, in years following I have come to realize that he was right.
When we send food to starving people all we are doing is postponing the inevitable, and insuring that in the long run, even more will starve. They have to work on the problem, not the symptom.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:41 PM

"soyabean"

??

Lemme quote Dennis Leary...

"Cause eggplant tastes like eggplant and meat tastes like murder and murder tastes pretty f#ckin' good!"

I'm an omnivore, cause that's how I (And we...) evloved... I have teeth specifically grown for tearing and chewing meat... to not use a tool is an insult to that tool....

And well, I'm also a firm believer in the food chain...

As far as cannibalism goes... well, lets just say my jury is still out... There are cultures who revear it as the best form of ancestor worship (they also have the human version of 'mad cow', but that's another story) but it's anti social to graze through your local population.... I can say this though... if it came down to a "Donner" situation where it was you or me, an "Alive" sorta deal... I'd suggest you not turn yer back...

What was it Rimmer said?

"I'da clubbed Oaks over the head with a frozen huskie, and used him to sop up the last of the gravey"

Or something to that effect...

Heh

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:49 PM

Agree with Kendall--too many people. Population control is the #1 issue, but you will have to convince several popular religions of that......

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:12 PM

1) Nah, it ain't the fault of religions. Simply, people gotta stop screwin'.

2) The issue was described very well in "The Mustard Seed Conspiracy." Over twenty years ago. It's a book worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:22 PM

Clinton, I now know where you got such a bad opinion of the human race.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:26 PM

Kendall...worst part about it...when your Geography professor made that statement, there were only about 2.8 Billion people, now there are 6.2 Billion...

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:07 PM

If you wanted to cut down on the overpopulation that really matters - going by the amount of resources of all sorts used per head, and the strain put on the planet, you wouldn't start with places like India. You'd start with North America and Western Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM

Kendall,
"When we send food to starving people all we are doing is postponing the inevitable, and insuring that in the long run, even more will starve. They have to work on the problem, not the symptom."

Watched on TV recently - about where some of the worst famines have occurred in Africa - the guy walked out of the big one in the 1970's - now back in his "home" he can grow about enough food for 5 months of the year - the rest of the year is Aid handouts. And the Govt want to shift him - but he and his family now won't move - "cause that's where his family has always lived" - and (insert civil rights stuff about being carted off land etc) - so more kids are born in an area that cannot produce enough food for the family - even in a "good' year...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:25 PM

Agreed--the 'West' uses far more resources per capita and wastes far more than any place else. It seriously pains me to have food spoil in the fridge, but I can't force them to eat it....even before it spoils.

Most Westerners don't really know how good we have it...electricity, flush, hot and cold running on demand, an excess of food in markets (vegan, etc. or not), decent ground to grow food, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:41 PM

Those are the kinds of things people said about Ireland in Famine times - and yet grain being grown in Ireland was being exported and sold abroad, because that's the way the economic system works.

And in countries in the Third World where there are famines you find that the best land is being used to grow cash crops for export to places like the USA or Western Europe. Same economic system. Same results.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:41 PM

I have been posting here off & on for 7 years that, as Kendall and his prof said, population is the 'keystone' problem.

If you have perfect distribution of food, new developments in growth technology for grains, reduction of pollution, etc...etc...you only put off the problem awhile...This planet will not support 27 trillion people, and I don't want to be around when we discover what the absolute limits are!

The problem 'could' be theoretically solved by 'open season' on Long Pig, but civilization would not be a lot of fun....

The only reasonable solutions are not gonna be very popular...(implant timed release contraceptives randomly in all little girls at age 11?? allowing only ½ of them to be fertile??) right! Wanta be the politican to suggest that?

65 million years of evolution have designed us to reproduce...it's gonna be VERY hard to overcome that with reason and planning..

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:55 PM

We're headed for a huge Malthusian nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:54 AM

Malthus was right. Absolutely right. We postponed it, but it's still there and it's not going to go away because we wish it to.

Theoretically we could terraform Mars and Venus, but sheesh, that's really long term planning and how do you convince folks to move?

I suspect that either humans will solve their problem with a war that will kill half or mone of them, or ol' Mama Nature will do it with a plague or something else.

"Red in tooth and claw...." And don't ever forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: mg
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:13 AM

Look how quickly the Northern countries took to birth control. Even with very severe religious factors. It won't take long for other countries to do it too...and most are....hopefully in time. I agree, it is the very biggest problem.

And despite the flip arrogance that always blames the US etc. for using most of the resources, there are some factors to consider. One is manufacturing, which we have sort of kissed goodbye...but it took a lot of resources and energy. One is the fact that we live in northern climes and have heating requirements...people in some southern climes can not only not heat their houses (although they might like air conditioning), they are not forced inside as much so houses can be smaller. More clothing is needed. In a big country, more transportation is used, if not needed perhaps, getting goods from one spot to another.    And the resources might be extracted or processed in the US but actually sent somewhere else..wheat to Korea, apples and wood to Japan...but I agree we could and must cut back...and we must find ways to get our used goods out of musty basements and landfills and into places where they could be used as is or for raw materials or parts...thta is one of the real shames of America..how much junk we hang onto when others could find it useful. mg

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:38 AM

I could have done it yesterday,
If I hadn't had a cold,
But since Iv'e put this pint away,
Iv'e never felt so bold,
As soon as this pub closes THE REVOLUTION STARTS.

The late and much missed Alex Glasgow,
not me, eric

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 05:08 AM

Bill D,
China has tried the "reduce kids per family" game and it wasn't popular - there was a famous refugee case in Australia where the pregnant woman - 3rd child - was sent back to China where she was forcibly given a "termination".

Read the novelette "Play Little Victims" by Kenneth Cook.. very funny too...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM

Unfortunately, the mindset of many poor people, reinforced by history, is that a family has to have many children because most of them will die off before the age of five. The adults need to have children to help provide food and support them in their old age. Fewer children means certain starvation.

Money put into education and creating jobs is far more likely to end hungar than the handout system. And does anyone know who really controls where the money to help poor countries is used? Does anyone chart progress and determine the success?

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:02 PM

Anyone remember what Sam Kinison had to say about this?

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:47 PM

Did it sound anything like:

OH!

   

OHH!

   

OHHH!

???

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

"THEY LIVE IN A FUCKIN' DESERT! THERE AIN'T NO FOOD IN A FUCKIN' DESERT! MOVE THE FUCKERS WHERE THE FOOD IS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

any questions?

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 07:00 PM

one simple concept...the "carrying capacity" of the land under given conditions. They learned it the hard way on Easter Island, and they are learning it in Ethiopia and other places today. If we abuse the land (OR the sea!)and reduce its capacity to feed us, we must reduce our own population. The mathematics is inexorable: if there is not enough, people will suffer and/or die...if we are smart enough to be ABLE to affect out own environment in extreme ways, we are smart enough to figure out how to preserve it. It just involves looking past next week....

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 07:05 PM

Ahhhhh, does the US government still pay farmers not to grow, ahhhh....(drum roll)... food?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 07:13 PM

Now that you mention it Guest, I remember it well..LOL!

I had the opportunity to live in Austria when I was 15 years old. My host family were farmers. It was a real eye-opener for me. The only thing these people bought from the store (food wise) was butter, cheese and pickles. Everything else came from the farm and the hard work we put into all of it (LOTS of manual labor....very LITTLE machinery as is often seen around the US). It definately gave me a new understanding of how things work and how very priviledged people are who can run to the store without a second thought.

Each summer we host children from New York City as part of the Fresh Air Fund. It's amazing to me (and honestly, frightening too) that the majority of these kids have NO IDEA where their food comes from. We had a 12 year old that thought corn grew on a tree, a 9 year old who had NO IDEA where milk came from and was absolutely horrified when she witnessed a goat being milked...they just don't know. As far as they are concerned, it comes from the store. Period. No further thought than that. On another occassion, there was a blackout in New York (just this past summer) and our Fresh Air Fund Child was concerned about the food in her mother's refridgerator spoiling and how would her mother get more food if all the stores were closed?

IMHO, education regarding agriculture and the raising of livestock is sorely lacking here in the US. Isn't it interesting that education is pushed for the 3rd world countries so that they can learn to do for themselves, but it isn't happening very much over here? Interesting and downright scarey.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:00 PM

... and why do you think that some people in some other countries (I was going to use "many" but didn't want to be sidetracked by arguments!) think that on average the US citizen is pretty ignorant and uneducated?

Lots of current very young aussie kids are pretty ignorant about that too, but there is a feeling that they should be educated about it - and there are sporadic attempts to do so. Many people my age grew up in mostly country backgrounds or had relatives that we were "blooded" with...

My brother is 12 years younger than me, and had no experience of the country. Our family went out to a relative's dairy farm - he was about 20 years old. Breakfast was free range eggs, unpasturised milk straight from the cow, left in fridge overnight (and the cream rose to the top! yay! hadn't seen that in milk for years - it's been "homogenised" for about 30 years - so you can't tell just how much cream they have 'stolen' out of it...), and made into scrambled eggs - wonderful - he went green and nearly threw up, he couldn't handle the taste of real fresh proper food! :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 01:49 PM

Does Brie come from the French word debris?

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 02:45 PM

Yes, education is lacking. And yet our elected officials can spend time in Congress thinking up nonsense bullshit-like changing the face on the dime to Reagan's! With all the important issues not resolved in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 04:38 PM

Yeah, change the face to Reagan's, 'cause that's all you'll have left after the National Debt he started is paid off. (Bitter? Me?)

As for "uneducated Americans" -- I think that the education system of the US needs changes, but also that a large number of Americans become educated, perhaps in spite of the system instead of because of it. If your view of Americans has been formed by movies and television, come visit (somewhere outside of the East Coast!) and form your own opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:41 AM

I don't think the hunger problem is one of too many people and not enough food. I think it is one of over consumption and poor distribution. For many years I worked in Restaurants and every day enough food was thrown away to feed several hundred people. The managers of many of these eateries were determined to serve huge portions in spite of the gact that very very few patrons ever ate all of the food. Day after day meat, veg, fries, salads,sweets, rools and milk were scraped into bins...not even recycled.
   Yet, we claim a world shortage of food. I think we just have an overdose of greed and gluttony.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:34 AM

Restaurants COULD serve meals of smaller portion sizes. Most folks in the "developed countries" don't need to consume the amount of calories they do each day. Cut down on the portion size, less food is wasted.

(I exempt restaurants in areas in which folks spend lots of time outdoors or in difficult weather condition, those which cater to folks who do lots of manual labor, and to on. A road worker in Alaska during the winter, for instance, NEEDS more calories than an office worker in Los Angeles.)

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:43 PM

guest...sure, it would be nice if portions were reasonable in restaurants, and if unused food could be routed to those in need. (It is done in places...restaurants & wholesalers donate to homless shelters, etc., in Wash DC and elsewhere)...I encourage this wherever it can be done.

But distribution plans and smaller protions simply will NOT solve any serious long-terms problems. Anyone who thinks so just has not truly done the math and realized the scope of the problem.

There ARE simply too many people for the state of the environment to handle...fisheries are disappearing, farmland is being turned into parking lots, various diseases and blights are affecting grains all over the world...and STILL we (the world in general) breed faster than we can cope.

I am over 60 now, and I may not live to see the worst of it, but if you are 20-30, you WILL see famines and social upheaval as a result....first in the 3rd world, but ripple effects right at your doorstep that you will NOT like.

You don't have to believe me....all you have to do is wait.

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:49 PM

Bill D

3 quick examples

1) the Irish Potato Famine - was it 18 Million people left the area for NEW PLACES - how many died?

2) Easter Island - they were trapped on the island.

3) Civilisations in Central America - destroyed their ecology, ran out of food, left the area for NEW PLACES...

The problem is that there are fewer and fewer NEW PLACES on earth - I heard that Bush is now going to encourage NASA to place a permanent settlement on the moon - ain't no food there at the moment...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: food
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:52 PM

yep...and the Earth is just a LARGE Easter Island...takes longer.