BS: Any vegans?

Subject: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:26 AM

I was just wondering -- any vegans, or vegetarians, or generally... people interested in animal welfare/rights here?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:32 AM

Vegetarianism need not, nor does it always by any means, go hand in hand with animal rights...and one can be an animal rights supporter and still be a non-vegetarian, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:53 AM

Yeah, that's why I said vegetarians OR animal rights supporters :-). To me it does seem a tad hypocritical though - being non-vegetarian and an animal rights supporter... unless one gets one meat *humanely*. It's like being a human rights worker, and telling people in some far off country to treat people right... but then, back at home, slaughtering your neighbours. Just an opinion, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:55 AM

Not really, but I have a 3o year deal with 4 legged critters that if they don't chew on me I won't chew on them... Fish and occasional fowl is a different story...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:02 AM

Given that rationale, you'd have to consider all carnivores as immoral killers.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:08 AM

"you'd have to consider all carnivores as immoral killers"

I can live with that label...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:23 AM

yup - they probably are :-). But that isn't the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:24 AM

Someone, I can't remember who, once said, if Nature didn't intend us to eat animals, why did She make them taste so good?

Sorry vegans, I'm just teasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:36 AM

All Gods creatures have a place...

Right beside the mashed potatoes...

:-)

Eat up vegans... when the big crash comes and the cattle take back thier freedom, we carnivores are coming looking for your grain-fed backsides!

And we'll wear your pelts in winter!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:44 AM

Very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM

I consider myself an animal rights activist and was quite involved in the cause for years. I did dislike the fanaticism I ran into...you could not be too correct for some of them; everyone was looking with suspicion at your shoes etc.. I eat meat now, and always try to buy humanely-raised products because the factory farming industry needs to be improved on so many levels, not just for animals' well-being but for human health as well.
My leather clothing is all vintage/thrift shop (recycling!) and I do not wear fur.
It does seem to be a part of human evolution to eat animals, but chasing down a caribou with a spear is a far cry from bludgeoning a cow with a steel club. I think it's a shame we cannot buy meat "on the hoof" anymore, as this is a nice reminder of the life sacrificed to feed us...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:54 AM

"the factory farming industry needs to be improved on so many levels, not just for animals' well-being but for human health as well."

Here here!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM

Yeah, if your meat is humanely raised, I guess it's ok - I'd just rather not eat it. Not because it's *wrong*... right now I'm too confused about the whole right-wrong issue... but because I CAN'T possibly eat an animal - I'd feel terrible. And there's the whole world-hunger-environment argument. I don't wear the leather stuff I already own only because I think it's kind of nice to spread the message that it's easy to live without leather... and wool... and other animal products. It's just a matter of me being satisfied... and happy... I'd rather cause as little suffering as I can (NOTE: I didn't say 'no suffering) :-).

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Sorry, but wearing wool doesn't hurt the sheep any at all.....in fact, NOT shearing will cause problems for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:16 PM

"in fact, NOT shearing will cause problems for them"

Yeah? I didn't know that - what problems? I've just seen all these photos and videos and the like... that have miserable sheep - sick... with cuts on them... and horribly treated. So I've never felt like using wool.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

I can understand vegetarianism (or even Veganism, I suppose) as a lifestyle choice. Hell, most of the food is pretty damn tasty. And plenty of people I know just don't like meat.

I just don't get the "ethical choice" bit. It sounds pretty naive to me. Want to be a Jain and limit the suffering you might cause something somewhere sometime? Why not just end it all and have done? Then you can revel in your righteousness as you gasp out your last breath. Just try not to inhale any insects as you go or crush any tiny creatures during your death throes.

Life is pain and pleasure in combination. And everything you do will have both positive and negative effects and we can't predict all the possible ramifications of our actions or inactions. I applaud your wishing not to cause suffering. I think most human beings have that wish.

But the animals who are dead aren't using their skin any more (that's recycling) and the sheep don't have to die to give up their wool. And if we didn't use these animals, they wouldn't exist. Period. They are domesticated animals that have been bred for the purposes we have for them. Aurochs are extinct. The cow is common.

Would it not cause suffering to condemn the cow to extinction because we don't wish to use its meat or milk or skin any more? You think people would keep them as house pets?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:22 PM

All sheep are miserable. It's their lot. That's why we have Karma.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

"You think people would keep them as house pets?"

It'd be like living with a bass player...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:27 PM

*shudder*

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:35 PM

Do you know why the big acoustic bass is called "double Bass?"

I didn't either---now I have two of them....

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:47 PM

The un shorn wool gets terribly matted, full of sticks, etc, and will cause horrible sores on the skin. A sheep CAN be shorn by an expert with NO cuts at all......but, not just by Joe Blow. Sheep shearing is an art, no doubt about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I tend to shy away from moral positions on the topic of vegetarianism (in all its guises). So too do I stay away from the biblical "We are stewards of the Earth" stuff--we have fu##ed that up. I eat little animal protein because it often tastes like s#it. So, I stumble along balancing amino acids and enzymes. Frankly, we have people starving to death daily, and the rights of a chicken just don't rank at the moment. I have had to put down a few dogs and cats over the years, and it has never given me a sense of pleasure. However, Bossy's problems in the north forty just don't compare to the human issues we all face. That's my two cents.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:27 PM

(Welcome to the looney bin, er, party, EP) It seems that most folks on this thread aren't actually answering the question. I htought there were more vegetarians (at least) here on the 'Cat. Me, I'm omnivorous, but do my best not to waste anything (soup stock from bones, etc). And I'm always looking for vegetarian/vegan recipes to expand my cooking repertoire.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

Vegan vegans began boiling Vegan vegan vegetables before Vegan vegan breakfast.

Thought it up the other day and I've been dying to use it.

I'm omnivorious by choice. I also hunt. Don't bug me about it, my choices are mine and yours are yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM

This seems a good place to have a question answered: What is the vegan rationale on not eating eggs or using milk? I understand the concept of not harming or killing animals but how did not using their products come about?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:24 PM

If my gut is to be believed, I gotta follow the school of thought that says milk isn't good for any adult...

make up for it in cheese though...

Mmmmmmmm.....

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

I vaguely remember Vegans from a Star Trek episode..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:53 PM

Two words: Oral Sex--Vegans don't do that? (Hell, I'm in Alberta--we don't know what the rest of the world does.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:54 PM

Sorry about the post above. I had just come from the Dirty Limericks thread, and I got confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:39 PM

It is a sticky topic, brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:52 PM

I used to do Aikido, an odd "martial" art where you (ideally) defend yourself without harming your attacker, and using muscular strength is a fault. You use ki, or chi energy instead, whatever that is. You can't have an Aikido match because an Aikidoist doesn't attack.

Tohei, the last personal student of the originator, Morihei Ueshiba, has carried it farther and works with ki as a healing energy.

So I was iinterested to hear what Tohei said about diet; I expected him to recommend tofu and brown rice. Wrong.

He said it doesn't matter what you eat; what matters is that you be properly grateful. Because even if it's a carrot, it has given its life for you. He likes beer & pizza.

My twin granddaughters, who are close to your age, got in trouble being vegans; they had severe protien deficiencies, anemia and faintiing. So be careful.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:22 PM

Yes, we have vegetarians and vegans here. Don't know why none of them have checked in. The egg thing I can understand for vegans--an egg would be a viable animal if allowed to develop, but cheese, yogurt,etc. I don't understand. Ever see a cow in dire need of milking? She is in PAIN! What can it hurt to use the milk, cheese, etc? Her calf has plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:27 PM

Sometimes people complain that vegans are a pain in the ass to cook for, but it ain't so. I have a good tip, developed from cooking for vegans at Mudcat Gatherings.


We offer two crockpots for Friday night arrivals. I start with ONE pot, making a very rich vegetable stock first. Sometimes I have it on hand already, frozen. Next I add the solid veg matter, add basic herbs, and let it cook just a bit. Anything fozen is nuked first so it goes in warm.

Once the flavors have begun to blend, I divide all that in half, putting half in the meateaters' crockpot. To each pot I now add the protein.

For vegans this will be pre-cooked beans or lentils, usually a mix of several varieties. Tofu also sometimes goes in, stir-fried first to add flavor and solidify the texture a bit. Seasonings are corrected/added.

The meateaters' pot gets cubed, pre-cooked meat. (I keep a couple of pounds of leftover roast meat in the freezer, so it's just thaw and cube and toss in.) Seasonings are corrected/added.

I top these off with added liquid if needed. V-8 or canned tomato sauce for the vegan pot, milk or canned broth for the other. Seasonings are again corrected. No salt-- people have to add it if they want it.

As the first arrrivals come in, I start the rice or couscous pot. We lay out all this with serving spoons, plus optional grated/cubed cheese and the bread and beverages that arrivals always bring, also wedges of lemon and bottles of hot sauce... a cutting board and serrated knife... I leave the glassware cabinet door open just above the food. I set out the full dishwasher-basket of clean silverware, napkins, a stack of our metal prison trays, as well as all the bowls we have.

It's not that hard to include vegans in large-scale cooking. I can do all this in about an hour, if I start with a clean kitchen and the freezer is well stocked. Before going to bed, I combine the two crocks' leftover contents and any leftover rice, and save it for the post-Gathering days when I don't feel like cooking for us.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Homeless
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:54 PM

Why does an animal have any more rights than a plant? Plants are alive too.

If we aren't supposed to eat humans, why are they made of meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:01 PM

Yeah, just `cause you can't hear a carrot scream when you yank it out of the ground, wipe it off on tour trousers and start chewing bits of it off, from the bottom up, doesn't mean it isn't murder too.


Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

If trees could scream, I wonder if we'd be so cavalier about cutting them down?

Maybe.

If they screamed all the time.

For no good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:29 PM

No, it really isn't hard to cook for the veggie ones, either kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:34 PM

Waiter, I'll have the NY sirloin, medium well, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:43 PM

Yeah, Tohei is right.

For what it proves, my very own brother showed (to his satisfaction anyway) that plants feel pain. Eating fruit stops a potential new life, and, I suppose, eating anything else does as well.

Recognize the Cycle and remember that YOU, personally, are part of it. YOU have eaten and YOU will be eaten.

Then, as Tohei said, be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM

I've never met anyone from the planet Vega...

One of the best things a Vegetarian friend did for me was to introduce me to Carob Bars, many years ago. I lost contact with her, but I do believe she eventually starved to death, but then being a Vegetarian was the least of her problems...

The Banquest above sounds great. I am omnivorous. I do like vegetables, even SOME Vegetarian dishes. I eat meat, and eggs and fish for protein - brain food. And I do like the taste of properly prepared meat.

I'm also a Sushi (and Sashimi!) lover. The wasabi contains enzymes that help digest the uncooked fish protein. Japanese mix the green paste with a little soy sauce in those tiny bowls - it takes away the firey taste.

Sashimi (uncooked fish) grade fish is special. Firstly, the Japanese do not eat freshwater fish uncooked, only ocean fish - it's to do with the parasite factor. It is individually caught on a hand line, rapidly landed, then immediately stabbed thru the brain with a sharp knife. Fish fillets treated this way will keep for up to 10 days on ice and stay totally transulescent without any smell of "fishiness" or signs of going off. "Normally" caught "commercial" fish thrash around and pump large quantities of lactic acid into the flesh, which turns it white - it partly cooks it! "I've grown accustomed to the taste..."

I could probably live on Sushi (and sashimi) exclusively for the rest of my life - only 2 hassles - it's expensive if bought because of the hands on preparation time, and while cheap if home made - the preparation time is not quick...

There's a guy in Sydney Australia who is now supplying the trade with proper Sashimi grade fish.

BTW, there's about half a dozen different traditional styles of Sushi - in commercial establishments, you normally only see one type, as well as "California Sushi". Actually Korean Sushi is not as sweet as Japanese - they use less sugar.

Robin the Foodie...
(Now I'm Hungry...)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

If we speared cows and wore loincloths while doing it, would it be alright to eat them?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:05 PM

"NY sirloin, medium well,"

Why ruin a good cut of meat by overcooking it???

LOL

And what if the cows had the loincloths and the spears? Think they'd bother hunting us?

I doubt it...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:07 PM

there are several reasons why people become vegan/vegetarian

health: they feel that cholesterol, etc. is a problem...
taste: they decide for some reason they don't LIKE meat
religious: they suscribe to some doctrine (i.e. Jainism) that teaches something about 'souls' or 'karma'...etc..
BBES: "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome"

I tend to think that 6 million years of evolution has made me an omnivore, and my ancestors thousands of generations removed did what they did naturally, with no 'activists' to tell them otherwise....therefore....

(yes, eating more fish & veggies wouldn't hurt me, I just don't intend to give up a major pleasure for some arcane idea about animal 'rights' that barely existed in times past)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:10 PM

I'm not vegan because of any of the reasons Bill spoke of, though I have found that I'm healthier now. I used to be a perpetually sick person! Clint - maybe your grand daughters didn't substitute for protein and calcium and everything else that they were missing out on.

I don't really know how things are in the US, etc; My only source for the conditions there is the net, and judging from what I've heard, PETA isn't a very reliable source? I guess, unless it's factory farming, the animals might not be treated so terribly? I have actually seen the way animals are treated here in India though, and it's appalling.

It isn't so much the actual killing of the animals that I feel strongly about - more the amount the animal has to suffer before its death. I used to eat eggs earlier; I only stopped because I saw the way the chickens were treated *shudders*. I don't really care about the taking-a-life argument, and this isn't a religious choice. Likewise milk - the cows suffer ever so much.

Someone I know, who's into organic farming, and tries to live a "humane, environment-friendly lifestyle" has a couple of cows who have not been genetically-bred to produce more milk (and live a shorter life, often)... and who aren't fed any chemicals/anitbiotics. He lets the calves drink their share, and found that he got milk only a couple of months in a year... and hardly any of it. Which kind of shows that it isn't natural the way the cows are treated.

I'd also rather not drink milk, because I think it supports the meat industry - the male calves are almost always killed, because they aren't needed. Except for the few that become bulls for artificial insemination - which seems a pretty ghastly life too. And yeah, the cows wouldn't be there if they weren't milked - but I think not existing would be better than living a short, miserable life. And anyway, it isn't as if the whole world will turn vegan one day - and all the cows will be left with nothing to do!

The whole thing isn't about 'animal rights' or morality (for me at least). So, it isn't about animals having more right than a plant. It's just about my conscience... and what I feel. And I definitely feel that an animal would feel more pain than a plant. So, I'd definitely feel better eating a plant than an animal. Besides, that argument is quite irrelevant - because every animal you eat eats ever so many plants. So, if you're eating the animal - you're eating both the animal and the plants... and SO MANY more plants than you'd eat, if you were eating them directly.

I've been a vegetarian all my life, so I guess that's just the way I was brought up. And veganism made sense to me, so I'm now a vegan. I just don't feel the need to use something that I don't think was meant for me to use. It's just a personal choice, and I don't say that everyone else should be vegan too.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:22 PM

As I said, EP, it's your choice. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. You want to walk the vegan road, okay. I'll respect your decision if you respect mine.

I don't like farmed animals. If I could, I'd eat only meat I raised and butchered myself. Likewise grains and vegetables. Then I could guarentee that it was done the way I think it should be. But I can't, so I make compromises. We all make them.

Just be thankful that you have something to eat. Wheat, rice, rat, beef, carrots, potatoes, pork, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,chip2447
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:07 AM

Anyone for VEAL cutlets? To not eat meat is a choice, to eat meat is an instinct.
My choice is to follow my instincts and be a carnivore/omnivore.

I wear leather and wool and have been known to masacre naga's to make nagahyde upholstery.

I dont support cosmetic testing on amimals, however, medical testing is a necessity, unless we can convince people who are incarcarated to be our test subjects.

I dont eat eggs...bleech, nor chicken...I do like veal and lamb.

So, I'll just continue in the hunter gatherer niche that evolution chose for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:12 AM

"Clint - maybe your grand daughters didn't substitute for protein and calcium and everything else that they were missing out on."

Exactly right. That's why I said to be careful. They were getting proteins, but not the right ones. Being raised vegetarian, though, you probably know more about proper substitution than they did.

But be careful anyway.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:23 AM

I wrote a response to a remark way up there, just before the Cat crashed. I wanted to make the point: "An egg is not viable if it's not been fertilized. Unlike cows, chickens produce even if they have not been bred. If there is no rooster in the flock there are no fertile eggs. Just eggs."


Ethereal Purple, I agree that you have a right to eat or not eat whatever you choose. And perhaps in India, culture and husbandry affect your choices. In America, there are a great many variations. For instance, I grew up on a farm; much later I lived on a couple of acres I have in Oregon and there I raised my own chickens and rabbits and hog, not to mention a lush garden. So my viewpoint differs from yours.

Chickens that are free range, as mine were, have happy, busy lives. I didn't eat them (or the rabbits) but I did gather the eggs daily. The egg yolks of free ranging chickens are *very* different from the eggs one gets in the store. Fresh eggs have 'stand up' yolks and the whites mound up around the yolk; they look a great deal like poached eggs, although the yolks are orange, rather than pale. When I was young, we butchered and ate chickens routinely; it didn't seem to bother my mother to kill them, although one of my brothers and I used to hide away so we didn't have to see the process. On the other hand, once they were dead and chilled, I liked dissecting the meat of both chickens and pigs. Go figure.

Cows do *not* suffer from being milked and cows *do* give more milk when they are milked in addition to having a calf on them. Even women give more milk when it is needed for more than one child. It's a natural process.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about family farms- not the mega-industry that is calibrated to the nth degree of efficiency, and culling is practiced when that efficiency falls.

Yikes. I just deleted a couple of paragraphs on commercial chicken and calf raising that is just too depressing. Cat sakes. It's enough to make one vegetarian. But not vegan- to me, vegan is the equivalent of a religious teaching that condemns contraception. I can see why abortion is controversial. Intervening with the fertilization process, on the other hand, imo does not constitute doing harm to a human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: harlowpoet
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:45 AM

I have been vegan thirteen years, and is because I oppose factory farming and all the other forms of abuse carried out by humans against the animal kingdom.

What annnoys more me more than anything is when you go on a meal and are asked, so why are you a vegan then. My answer is usually a rude reply now, as I am fed up having to justify myself time and time again. If I asked so why are you a meat eater?, I would be accused of shoving my opinions down someones throat.

Next time you're out with a vegan/veggie, for a meal. I suggest you avoid all mention of the subject at the dinnertable, and research it for yourself some other time.

Happy Christmas dinner. Enjoy the nut roast

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:54 AM

I was vegetarian for 8 years, spent 5 years working in a Vegetarian restaurant and still eat the odd veggie meal now and then.

I gave up being vegetarian because I became poor. I was in rented accommodation and on the dole, so my money had to last. It turned out that after all my bills were paid, I had £5.00 a week to buy a book or my food. I have a huge amount of books and I bummed a lot of meals during that period! I decided that it was a greater sin to waste food that was already prepared, than it was to consider the ethics that went into preparing it. Someone was willing to feed me for nothing, why should I then insult them by turning down that food because it wasn't what I ate?

On the other side of the coin, as the decendant of a long line of shepherds, farmers and agricultural labourers; if the consumption of meat and all its' by-products (wool, leather, dairy, eggs etc,) were to cease, how many people would then be out of work and homeless? I know one family at least - my uncle works on a dairy farm and lives in a tied cottage (Cross Pond translation - a 'tied cottage' is a dwelling that goes with the job, you quit/lose your job, you lose your house). When he retires, he has 6 months to find a new house, and the farm owner will help him, if he continues to help out on the farm. If he quit or was fired now, he'd be homeless next week because the owner can find someone else tomorrow to take his place.

The key to the whole thing is balance - just as you must balance your own life and nourishment, you must also consider the lives of others. If you wish to make a political statement whilst living the lifestyle you choose, then try to eat organic, free-range or humanely treated produce. Buy recycled goods, recycle your own discards, use only products that are humanely produced. Support charities that encourage human development and growth, rather than those that just give handouts (the Christian Aid slogan - 'we believe in life before death' says it all) and buy fair trade products where possible.

Of course, this isn't practicable to most people, but if you just change one aspect of your lifestyle, it's a change for the better.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 08:47 AM

If no one ate meat, who would pay for the cow retirement homes?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:19 AM

The objection to using milk is, I think, that the cows are constantly kept pregant so that they will continuously produce milk. I use soya milk instead. Myself, wife, two daughters and one son-in-law have been veggies since 1988.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sooz
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:23 AM

Some good points harlowpoet. I also hate having to justify my diet! I've been vegetarian for 30 years although I still use some dairy products. (No leather or silk) I eat loads of fresh fruit and vegetables with protein mostly from grains and pulses. I have an amazing immune system but I do have a problem keeping my weight down!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 10:45 AM

What is a vegan, by the way? It sounds like it is a broader philosophy than just not eating meat. We have a son who is a vegetarian, but it's because he believes that it is a healthier diet. It doesn't have anything to do with concern for animals being slaughtered. Is he a vegan, or just a vegetarian? This is the first time I've heard the term vegan.

We have no problems with differences in diet in our family. We have Muslims, so we do not serve pork, a vegetarian, so we make sure there is a variety of foods without meat, and everyone sits down at a table together with no mention of differences in spiritual or dietary differences. No one tries to "convert" anyone, or even comments on our differences. We just respect each other.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 10:48 AM

harlowpoet - I think it's natural to be asked why you're a vegan... because the fact IS that veganism is relatively rare! Here in India, almost no one knows what the word means! The nice thing, though, is that vegetarianism here is totally normal - it's the easiest thing to be veggie. It's definitely cheaper than eating meat. And you almost NEVER (you might even be able to cut out the almost) go somewhere, and find that there isn't anything you can eat. Veganism is a different matter though.
I love soymilk and tofu and ragi... and one reason I'm healthier is because now I watch what I eat; I never did bother much about nutrition, etc.
There are almost no nice, humane family farms here in India, or at least, I haven't come across many. So it's almost inevitable that if you consume animal products, you cause lots of suffering. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: John P
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps one reason more vegetarians/vegans have checked into this thread is because every time there is a thread about it, we get a bunch of assholes making rude comments and dumb jokes, all of which we've heard about a million times already. Being vegetarian doesn't threaten anyone, and me saying I'm a vegetarian doesn't mean that I am preaching at you about anything.

There is nothing inconsistent about beng a vegetarian and not being into animal rights. If the reason for being vegetarian is because of the health benefits, animal rights wouldn't necessarily enter into the question at all.

I now don't wear leather shoes or belts, but for the first 15 years or so that I was a vegetarian, I did. I had three responses for people who decided I needed to be hassled about that:
1. It's none of your business.
2. Everyone makes their own choices, please respect mine.
3. I don't eat my shoes and belt.

The reason my wife, who is a vegan, doesn't drink milk is because cows are kept perpetually pregnant in order to keep them producing milk. Most of the resulting calves are slaughtered. She became a vegan the night we were camped next to a cow farm when they were taking the calves away. We listened to the mourning cries of bereft mothers and the squeals of terrified calves for several hours. And yes, it is easy to tell when an animal is suffering pain, either physical or emotional.

Anyone who can't imagine the difference, from a vegetarian point of view, between eating an animal and eating a vegetable is a moron, or is purposely acting like a moron in order to make a moronic point. I've heard the "you're killing vegetables" and "vegetables feel pain, too" lines so many times I could puke. Please get real or get lost.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: John P
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM

Jerry,
A vegan is a person who doesn't use any animal products of any kind. Yes, it is a usually broader philosphy than just not eating meat. It usually includes not wearing wool, silk, or leather; not using any products that were tested on animals; not using any vitamins or medicines with ingredients that come from animal sources. For many it includes not keeping pets, or eating honey. For some is it a spiritual thing, for some a political thing, for some a thing of not being willing to cause pain to any creature. Or some combination of reasons. Not being a vegan myself, I've never studied up on the concepts. So I can't go into much more detail than that.

I wish more families (other groups of people) were like your family.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sooz
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

I'll second everything you say John but for completeness: a vegetarian is someone who eats nothing from dead animals - and that includes FISH! I'm fed up of being offered tuna as the veggie option.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 11:31 AM

I'm curious about wool.. Having worked many years at a Museum where we had a small New England Farm with sheep, I always looked upon shearing as a favor to the sheep. It wasn't painful (perhaps momentarily embarassing, if sheep can be embarassed) and I imagine that the sheep were a lot more comfortable in the heat of July and August. (Would you like to wear a thick coat of wool in August?) I even thought it was a way to keep sheep healthier, because when they were sheared, it was easier to spot any sores or injuries that required treatment. Do vegans not get their own hair cut?

I don't mean to poke fun at vegans (although even vegans need a sense of humor.) I agree with the basic dumbness of comparing eating a carrot to slaughtering a cow. Most of the vegetables I've eaten didn't have a central nervous system.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:44 PM

"Please get real or get lost"

Take yer own advice John...

" I don't mean to poke fun at vegans"

I do... but it's only in fun...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:59 PM

As my friend Art thieme says, "If you don't have a sense of humor, it's not funny.."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Homeless
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:00 PM

John Peekstok -
"you're killing vegetables" ... "Please get real or get lost."
I am being quite real, not playing the moron. No, I "can't imagine the difference, from a vegetarian point of view," I guess because I'm not a vegetarian, so mayhap you should explain it. Is the "vegetarian point of view" just a simple way of saying "I don't care about anything below 'this level'"?

To my mind, a life is a life, be it plant, insect, animal, or human.
Life - if any is sacred then it is all sacred. So what is the difference between killing a plant or animal? Personally, the higher evolved and more aggressive a life form is, the less sacred it's life is to me.

BTW, we have plenty of houseplants. For anyone who has any sensitivity, it is easy to tell when a given plant is content or ill or disturbed. It is easy to tell a plant is suffering, if you care to pay attention.
To use your phrasing, anyone who can't tell, from a caring, sensitive, humanistic point of view, that a plant is alive and has moods is an insensitive clod.

A better reason not to drink cow's milk is because it is nutritionally balanced to a calf's needs, not human. The calcium in milk is in a form that cannot be readily assimilated by the human body. It is also full of fat, which a young calf needs, but humans don't. There's a reason why human breast milk bears little resemblance to cow's.

Why is it that anyone who disagrees with your lifestyle choices is an "asshole," but it is acceptable for you to be rude (see responses number 1, 2, and 3 in your post above)to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:11 PM

Ita all very well for Vegetarians and Vegans to 'Have a Go'at people who dont eat/live the way they do, but what about the other side of the coin ?? By which I mean the Veggies who refer to Non Veggies as
Carnivores! I am an OMNIVORE and object to be incorrectly labelled by some usually jumped up self opinionated pillock.
This does not mean I am anti vegetarian,just anti Pillock.

Little story for you. A friend was involved in a festival and offered to provide accomodation for one of the bands for the weekend,so got in extra milk etc for coffee and tea mornings and after events.The band were ALL Vegans or vegetarians !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 03:37 PM

And another story, Lead... a folk festival one.

Many years ago, I received a very unexpected phone call from someone I'd never met, offering to book me at a folk/gospel festival. I was surprised, because while I may be identified as such at Mudcat, I've never thought of myself as a gospel singer. Back then, I did a half a dozen gospel songs out of a repertoire of at least a hundred folk songs. After offering all the disclaimers I could come up with, I accepted the booking. Being a booking, and all. I found out later, just before I drove up there, that it was a vegetarin folk/gospel festival. The Festival was held a few miles the other side of To Hell And Gone, so we were pretty well stuck with the menu. The organizer was a vegetarian, and I guess felt that everyone else could darned well be, too. After the first day, I drove about fifteen miles to the nearest town, went to a Dunkin Donuts and brought back a dozen donuts. I announced on stage that I has a dozen Dunkin Donuts in my room that were up for grabs. Man! I shoulda had folks take a number!
Whatever anyone eats is fine with me. And what I eat is fine with me.
But, what I would have given for a thick bacon cheeseburger!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 03:41 PM

"If you don't have a sense of humor, it's not funny.."

Their problem... not mine...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 03:59 PM

Sorcha wondered why vegans would object to yogurt and/or cheese.

Maybe it's because of the included bodies of the millions of innocent bacteria used in producing them.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: open mike
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 05:46 PM

john thanks for mentioning honey...
i believe vegans choose not to
use the by-products of animals
because they do not want to be
responsible for enslaving these
critters for human use, but would
rather allow them to live free.

I have been a vegetarian for over
30 years. an "ovo-lacto" veggie-
i eat eggs and cheese and also
will go for sea food (smoked salmon,
tuna, shrimp) but i guess i have
BBES-- big brown eye syndrome..
as mentioned in an earlier post.
do not eat birds/foul/fowl.
of fur, feathers and fins,
i only eat those who swim.

also avoid anything containing
gelatin--horsey hooves--such as
capsules . some gelatinous
coagulation agents are now
derived from sea weed sources.

oh yes, yeast, both "active"
and "brewer's" and acidophilus
are on my "o.k. to eat" list.
these little beasties do not
have big brown eyes.

some cheese curdling agent-rennet
used to be from enzymes taken from
calves' stomach lining, but most now
are from bacterial sources i believe.
some vegetarians insist on rennet-less
cheese. there are also herbs which will
curdle cheese..one i believe is marsh
mallow , one Gallium or lady's bed straw.

the environmental/ecological/economic
equation usually works out to 10 times
as much food can be produced on an acre
of land if people eat grains and beans
directly instead of feeding these to
cows and then eating the cows.
i would rather just east the corn and
soy myself. millions of acres of these
are grown just for cattle food. of
course the main thing lacking in non-
meat diets is vitamin B-12 which it is
important to find sources for in your diet
if you don't eat meat..
the first question i get is "where do you
get your protein?"
answer: nuts, cheese, soy, grains & beans.
read Frances moore lappe' diet for a small
planet. good info and recipes. the concept
of "complete protein" emphasizes combining
foods that offer balanced nutrients.
also "Laurel's Kitchen" cookbook and the
moosewood recipe books.
also tofu can be frozen to change the
texture and allow it to absorb flavor
for shish kabob or other meals.
gluten is a wonderful thing. it is made
from wheat . "gluten steak" or seitan
is very nutritious. As is Mochi which is
from rice (it is great prepared in a waffle
iron!) also tempeh is a soy product which is
easily digestible--the beans are fermented
with a rhizome from the Kogi which is like a
fungus...
ah now i am getting hungry....

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 05:54 PM

Hoo boy! I find it amusing to hear a vegetarian or vegan complain about how they are tired of having to justify their diet, and then they go on to justify their diet. They feel the need to inform us of all the horrible atrocities being practiced in the meat, poultry, and dairy farm industry. They want you to just respect their decision to not eat meat (which I do) but then they tell you about the terrible things done to stock or else the health benefits of their vegetarian diet, all of it being a thinly veiled criticism of your own idea of what constitutes food.

It all points to a general human arrogance that we know better than nature. You will go on a quest for some exotic bean paste as a protein supplement that your body needs when I can get the same thing by clubbing a passing rodent and poking it in my face before you can say "tofu". It's called the food chain, and we're all part of it, Pollyanna. You're meat too and the maggots won't give a toss when you're dead if you were a vegetarian or not. Neither would a polar bear or a shark while you're still living.

Hey, if you don't like meat and don't wish to eat it... great! More dead animal flesh for me! I don't like mayo or melted cheese on everything, so I don't eat that. But don't go trying to tell me your diet is more healthy than mine (and yes I've heard this from vegetarians often) or tell me about how I'm unconsciously supporting the torture of God's innocent creatures (I hear this too), because I like a steak now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 06:23 PM

^5's Cluin...

We goin' out for poutin when I'm up?

Heh

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 06:25 PM

Sure, but I'll take mine sans cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 06:48 PM

well, having been away for a day, I see there are more opinions...and some of the usual 'differences' of opinion. I was not trying to insult anyone back up there in speaking of "BBES", but EP's post right under mine tells me I need to explain and define a bit more..

I consider concern about animals suffering to be a subset of BBES, that is, a form of anthropomorphizing. I certainly do NOT wish to see unnecessary pain or miserable living conditions for any animal, whether or not it is being raised for food, but **unless** my abstaining from meat would truly prevent this, I can't see altering my basic lifestyle. I would imagine an antelope brought down by a pack of lions 'suffers' as much as a cow at a slaughter house, and probably lives with fear most of the days of its life. I can't make that situation any better. Once, my distant ancestors were as likely to BE food as to kill something else for food...and I could easily 'suffer' at the hands of my fellow humans in some way...it just all works that way.

If it makes YOU feel better to not participate in the chain of meat eating, I agree, it's not my place to say otherwise, or to exhort you to try a steak. Jerry R. is correct...the best we can do is to be aware of each other's feelings...(which INCLUDES a fair warning if invited somewhere or inviting someone..that vegetarianism IS practised, rather than expecting people to subsist on food they are not used to!)

A telling little story to finish with....I knew a woman in college who considered herself to be Buddhist/Jainist and would not kill or eat ANYTHING above a vegetable. (She had this terrible dilema deciding whether eggs were ok IF they had not been fertilized). But she was poor, so she lived in a house which had some cockroaches. She would not poison them nor would she step on them...but we DID catch her scooping some up in a dish towel and tossing them out into the snow!...."Ummm, Pat," we asked, "what do you think will happen to the roaches out there in freezing temperatures"? "My concern is to get them out of my house", she said, "what God does with them is none of my business!"

Our heads sure do work in funny ways, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM

We live on a small farm. The majority of the meat that is consumed in this household is that which has been raised here. Our animals are well cared for and given a better life than they ever would have been given on a large scale commercial farm. Our pigs run about and play in the snow, our cow loves to play and have his head rubbed...the chickens have ample room to run about and chase bugs...no teeny tiny cages here. In addition, since we have only a very small family, a portion of our meat is given to local folks who simply can't afford much meat at the current market prices.

We are not vegetarians, however, it is not unusual for us to go a week or so without having any meat...just a matter of choice.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 07:38 PM

LilyFestre:

Free range chickens taste good. Gotta admit, the stuff from the factories just tastes funny to me. I don't know if it's my tastebuds getting weird with age, but it seems to me that chicken tasted way different 35-40 years ago. Wonder if it's the stuff they get in their diets: antibiotics, growth hormones, etc. Fresh eggs taste good, too. I am not a farm boy, but I've lived in some farming communities over the years. There is a world of difference between what's grown and what's sold in the supermarkets. Oh, yeah, I read your snowball remark on the other site. lol. We have a bit here in central-west Alberta, but I won't say how much because I don't want everyone POed at me (OK, I will. It can still be measured in millimeters). Hope y'all get dug out. Went through a few of those when I lived in Montreal. Don't envy anyone the task. Stay Well. Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 08:34 PM

LilyFestre, does your Papa Cow have a name?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: John P
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:13 PM

Cluin,
I'm confused. You said,
"Hoo boy! I find it amusing to hear a vegetarian or vegan complain about how they are tired of having to justify their diet, and then they go on to justify their diet."

I complained about being tired of having to justify my diet. I didn't actually go on to justify my diet. open mike spent quite a lot of time justifying his diet, but didn't actually say he was tired of having to do so.

When I said in my original post that when I say I'm a vegetarian it doesn't mean I'm preaching at you about anything, I meant just that. I don't talk about being a vegetarian unless I'm asked about it, or unless it is needful information for someone to have (like if we are planning a meal together). You'd be amazed at how many people ask me about it and then think I am putting them down when I talk about why I'm a vegetarian. Very strange.

That said, I know there are lots of vegetarians who are rude and in-your-face-about and holier-than-thou about it. And they usually expect everyone around them to cater to their choices. I, too, am irritated by them. Fortunately, they are a minority, if a vocal one.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:30 PM

Fermented soy products are great. I love them all.

Unfermented soy, such as "soy milk" (which is produced in something not unlike a petroleum refinery!) contains things which aren't necessarily good for you - especially if you are male! - unless you want a slow steady sex change! Lethecin is good for you - comes from soy - but you almost can't buy bread made without it now.

"soy milk" has to be "cooked" during manufacture to make it safe/edible.

Ebbie - I think LilyFestre could be telling us a "Cock and Bull Story" :-)


Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 10:04 PM

Sorry, John P. When I was a kid, my dog was sacrificed by a cult of vegetarians to their Corn God. I guess I've still got issues.


;)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 10:55 PM

LilyFestre - how d'you manage to eat those animals after all of that? Not saying you oughtn't to... it's probably much better that you do... but how can you?! It'd be like... eating my dog!

"I would imagine an antelope brought down by a pack of lions 'suffers' as much as a cow at a slaughter house, and probably lives with fear most of the days of its life. I can't make that situation any better."

First: probably not; the antelope definitely wouldn't suffer more than animals at slaughter houses here in India - things are AWFUL here. People actually slit a goat or lamb across its back, and let it run around bleeding, and then slit it again so that it collapses, and then hang it up alive, to let it bleed (and bleat) to death!! That's just too cruel! A couple of friends and I recently screened a video on cow slaughter in school - and now half the school wants to be vegetarian (how many will actually be, I don't know, though :-)

Also - I don't that talking of all the suffering that we can't help justifies causing more suffering! It's obvious to anyone that you can't eliminate suffering from the world... but I wouldn't want to cause more than I can help!

Oh, and btw - I don't kill cockroaches or rats or even mosquitos (no one at home does). And I haven't died of malaria or dengue yet :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 06:50 AM

Hey Ebbie.....

Our bull's name is Chuckie (coulda been Stew, or Sir Loin, Porter...you get the idea!). We have also had pigs named Hammy and Bacon.....yup...LOL.....we name them!

Morning E. Purple....

    How do we eat them? Well, we enjoy them while they are here, treat them as best as we can and then we fire up the grill........*EG*

    Seriously though, I didn't think I'd be able to do it...but I don't think of the chickens as pets...the pigs were harder and this is our first cow.....I keep teasing that he's our newest and permanent grass cutter! Our first set of pigs were really likeable...the second were not. About the 3rd time they got out and had to be chased home on a very hot muggy July evening, I was ready to shoot them myself. We have the butcher come and take them for a ride and the next time we see them they are all nicely packaged and ready for the freezer. We'll see about Chuckie...I'm kinda partial to him.

   Some friends of mine at church do the same thing (raise the cow and treat it well) except they sell their cow/bull to others and then buy meat from someone else's cow at the butchers so they don't feel they have had to have their animal butchered, although that is it's final destination. Their latest cow, Buttercup, was recently sold and they are pretty nonchalant about it.

   As in....it would be like eating your dog.....we don't see it that way at all. We are trying to take care of our own family, help others where we can and to keep it simple.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 08:22 AM

In most countries, dogs weren't domesticated as a source of food. If cows and pigs weren't eaten, the world would be over-run by them. Who would want to pay the cost of keeping a herd of cows as pets?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM

Cows fart lots--pass wind for the ladies amomgst us--and add tons of methane to the atmosphere. What Purple says about one suffering not justifying another is true. Regarding the cockroaches: I kill 'em with a vengence. Mosquitoes too. No friggin' mercy. SPLAT! However, I do so as quickly and efficiently as possible. For the misery that mosquitoes have inflicted on this world, there ought to be a way to cause them some misery in return. (I know that's not nice of me.) But, I simply swat them. No Hail Marys, no parting prayers--a simple send off--SPLAT. With the occasional, "Have a NICE day."

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 11:54 AM

Open Mike mentioned Frances Moore Lappe's EXCELLENT book, Diet For A Small Planet, which had a sequel, Recipes For A Small Planet.

Ms Lappe explored the (then novel) idea that the world cannot afford to get its protein chiefly through animal sources. Diet For A Small Planet was not basically a cookbook, but a philosophical/economic exploration of that idea, with a few recipes thrown in mostly as examples of the concept of protein complementarity, with explanation of how the partial proteins in (say) beans can be balanced with the different partial proteins in rice, so that "Never eat rice without beans, and never eat beans without rice." The few recipes given, some of them really excellent, were just a teaser. Ms Lappe had not intended to go further, but her book got so much attention, and there were so many requests for a cookbook on the subject, that she teamed up with Ellen Buchwald Ewald to produce Recipes For A Small Planet, published in '73. It's still available.

As with most cookbooks, some recipes in "Recipes" are better than others, and I find myself coming back and back and back to certain ones. Notably, there are two pancake recipes there, either of which, taken alone, would have been the best pancake recipe I ever ate. Many of the bread recipes are stellar, and there's one that I've made over and over and over and over. It's a whole wheat milk and honey bread which is truly scrumptious. Come to think of it, I haven't baked bread in a long time; I think I'll get that out and make some milk and honey bread. There's a cinnamon oatmeal recipe that I used to make repeatedly, when the kids were at home and I was the breakfast chef.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I am not a vegetarian, or anything close thereto. But if I chose or were somehow forced to that route I wouldn't suffer from that diet, I'm sure.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 06:00 PM

My own meat consumption is down to about 8 oz/week. Problem is time. When I was vegetarian, I enjoyed the food and did feel healthier. However, baching it makes it difficult to eat balanced meals without meat or cheese. Interesting thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Deda
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 07:52 PM

For several years my meat consumption has been on a gradual decline, and I have more and more sort of "flashes" of feeling that I just can't eat mammals anymore. As one pamphlet I read on the subject said, "The question isn't whether animals can reason, it's whether they can suffer." Clearly they can and do. At this point I am not even comfortable eating fish or chicken, although I sometimes resort to it. My dietary choices are a little more restricted than some because I'm lactose intolerant, so cheese isn't an option for me anyway.

Around the time that the war in Iraq started I wanted to find some way I could cease to contribute to suffering in the world, so I again lowered my meat consumption. I never buy commercially-produced mammal meat. I am looking for simple meat-free recipes I can use. I subscribe to Vegetarian Times, which I use a lot. If I could be certain that any meat I ate had been raised as Michelle describes, I might feel differently about it, but given the rampant cruelty in the current food-production industry, I just can't bring myself to contribute to it. The methane-production is another factor. I think we'd have a much better chance of co-existing without destroying our natural environment if the human race suddenly lost interest in beef and pork. Generally pigs have higher IQs than horses and dogs, IIRC, although as I said earlier, it isn't their intelligence that really matters to me but their suffering. As for the specious argument about vegetable suffering, the 70's book "The Secret Life of Plants" claimed that vegetables live to be eaten, it's their divine purpose and it actually makes them "happy".

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 07:58 PM

Robin....question....cock and bull story? Huh?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:02 AM

Oh Dear LilyFestre...

Culture Clash again...

Was "having a lend of you"...

1) You were talking about the animals on your farm...

2) that is a famous Aussie expression (for something slightly ruder!)--- there is a famous cartoon which illustrates it - the 2 guys are leaning against a fence. On top is a rooster, behind the fence is a bull.... one guy is saying "are you sure this isn't a cock and bull story?"

:-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:17 AM

I HATE vegans! As anyone who has read 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy' knows they are as horrible alien race of space-slugs who will destroy the world to make a hyperspace bypass!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:33 AM

I am a strict omnivore. I eat lean meats, cage-free eggs, and tons of vegetables. (I tried to give up meat once and put on 20 pounds.) I have been known to cook vegan meals from time to time, without even really trying. Dried beans in the slow-cooker with a can of tomatoes and a chopped onion... yummy!

I wanted to put in a plug for the Silk Nog. I love eggnog, but not the calories. So this year I tried Silk Nog - made from soymilk - and y'all, it's really good. It's not dreadfully thick or cloyingly sweet. Just right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:29 AM

choosing to eat meat or not doesn't bother me. what bothers me is those who choose not to eat meat - then buy vegan ham, vegan sausages, vegan bacon, vegan cheese; wear faux fur, faux leather, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:40 AM

Faux my a55, what's the matter with the word "fake"?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:56 AM

MMario - I sort of agree --- there are some folks who have to watch cholesterol and the like, whose doctors have told them they can't have Real Meat anymore ---- but I think that is probably a different group from what you are talking about. I like to use the meat substitutes once in a while just for variety, or if I have overindulged and need to cut a few calories.

I used to work for a lady that was a vegetarian/animal rights person, but she wore/used leather products. I never could figure that out. But that was her choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:53 PM

We live in societies that perform abortions on demand. Animal rights ain't too far up on my priority list unfortunately, no offence. Wonder if there's ever been a study that compares people's views with regard to abortion and their respective diets? Curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

Brucie, yes (though have have asked for diet and not for animal rights and that may not be identical).

Virtually no correlation (- .04) between attitides to pro-animal rights and to pro-life rights.

Look up Table 3 in this study.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:36 PM

Bruce said:

Faux my a55, what's the matter with the word "fake"?

"Faux" is fake "fake".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

Someone made a faux paws..

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:03 PM

But was it a real faux paw?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: John P
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:36 PM

Here are some web sites for the curious. I'm not interested in debating any of the points made in any of them, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.
Reasons to be a vegetarian
More reasons to be a vegetarian
49 Reasons to be a vegetarian
Reasons to be a vegan

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:01 PM

I am guessing you'd find there are plenty of pro-choice, anti-death-penalty vegetarians, just as there are loads of anti-choice, pro-death-penalty, meat-eaters...

Just where does the discrepancy lie?

So far, there is no movement to have the government determine whether or not people can eat meat...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:07 AM

Well, my philosophy has alway been this:

You eat what you want, I'll eat what I want. I won't tell you what to eat unless you ask my opinion, and you will do the same. Food is kind of personal and I prefer not to debate it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:20 AM

I tried debating my food one time.

I hit it with this really blistering argument right out of the chute and it just had no comeback. I waited days, but still no reply. It finally turned bad and I had to throw it out. What a waste!

If only it could have swallowed its pride and admitted it was wrong. Taught me a real lesson, that did. I'll never try that again...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM

It's the damn turnips that never have a reasonable response. At least that's been my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

And the green onions just repeat on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:20 PM

As I do write this post this thread just comes immediately below the 'German Cannibal' thread. That'll change of course with this post.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:08 PM

See we can ony have this debate 'cos we have logic and reasoning!

I#m veggie almost vegan - by accident - just stopped eating meat - no better or worse for it.

I like LFs comments I have no objection to veggies Vegans (other then my partner) or omnivores - I do object to pidgeon holes - aha - and p*ll*x!!!

I choose not to eat meat 'cos I can.

If we get serious like we used to on the Vegan message board and look at stats most omnivores eat around 4 tiems as musch meat as they need to - there is more colonic cancer in omnivores than veggies statistically - but then lies damm lies and statistics rules.

Veggie food is nice but I do sometimes miss textures - these cnanot be recreated even with tofu - bless it - but I ramble IN the name of the cow the pig and shorn sheep amen!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:06 AM

I eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm dry, and if whisky don't kill me I'll live 'til I die.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 10:35 AM

But in the meantime, pass the roast beef & gravy.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM

I can remember an "End of civilisation as we know it" story where people discover that they can make artificial PVC out of tanned animal hides. On the other hand, if no-one ate/drank meat, dairy produce, eggs etc or used wool or leather - wouldn't the creatures that supplied these commodities just be allowed to die out ?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:13 PM

Psst... Dave.... lookee.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 04:40 AM

choosing to eat meat or not doesn't bother me. what bothers me is those who choose not to eat meat - then buy vegan ham, vegan sausages, vegan bacon, vegan cheese; wear faux fur, faux leather, etc.

I don't get it - why? I don't use any of those only because I haven't found them here in India... but if I did, I'd probably love em! What's wrong with using fake animal-products... you think using animal products is wrong... but you don't want to miss out on what you get from them... seems perfectly logical to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

I am a vegan and a raw foodist.

It would be interesting if those who eat meat or any animal products could take a tour of a chicken processing plant or stockyards and see if they remain consistent.

DES is a known chemical in milk and beef. If you wash veggies you can reduce salmonella and any E coli. You have to cook beef and chicken to death to protect yourself.

Check the cholesterol rates of vegans vrs. animal eaters.

Americans eat too much protein and calcium and pee out the unused excess. Hence, the lose more than they take in and this creates
osteoperosis. Heart disease is a product of animal eating.
The best protection from cancer comes from the veggie world.

The meat packing and dairy industries have offered their idea of a well-rounded diet for years. Foxes guarding the hen house.
Lobbyists.

Organic is better although it becomes increasingly difficult to
determine if the label is true. You won't hear anything about this from Tommy Thompson.

"A better reason not to drink cow's milk is because it is nutritionally balanced to a calf's needs, not human. The calcium in milk is in a form that cannot be readily assimilated by the human body. It is also full of fat, which a young calf needs, but humans don't. There's a reason why human breast milk bears little resemblance to cow's."

This is true. Goes for cheese,butter and yoghurt too.

There are plenty of sites about the virtue of raw vegan or living vegan foods. They are worth looking at for the open-minded.

It's OK to poke fun if it's funny at anyone who you don't agree with but bad health is no joke.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:22 PM

" those who eat meat or any animal products could take a tour of a chicken processing plant or stockyards and see if they remain consistent."

Have done... it made me hungry...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

Frank: Much of what you say is right, but I have been veg and omni and eating meat and dairy doesn't have to mean eating the whole side of the cow in a single sitting. I may eat a pound of animal proteins in a week. For an old fart, my health's pretty good. True, we tend to cook the usefulness out of foods--boil the crap out of it and render the enzymes useless. That isn't wise. However, I find it easier to balance the requisite proteins in my diet by having some animal product in it. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:35 PM

Brucie,

You don't need animal product to get enough protein. A variety of uncooked veggies will give you what you need.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Ghost of a Mashed Potato
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:37 PM

Stop the slaughter now!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:52 PM

Diet is one of many factors that effect health and longevity. My Father was strictly a fried meat and potatoes man, and kept the stills in the local breweries running all night. He only lived to be 92, and was in good health right up to the end. I don't recommend his lifestyle. It only goes to show.

You can't beat genes.

And if folks don't want to get poked fun at, don't start threads. A lack of a sense of humor probably takes more years off your life than raw meat.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Ghost of a Mashed Potato
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 12:55 PM

Please!

Think of the children!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

GUEST, G of a MP. I ate your kids last night. Burp. Good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Spot
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 01:58 PM

ermm..I'm having a brace o' partridge for dinner tomorrow... no apologies to anybody. No probs with people who dont as long as they dont shove it down my face..(like these ere brids are goin!!)live but LET LIVE...
             regards to all ...Spot

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 11:18 AM

I think genes do play a part Jerry but quality of life is equally important. For most people, this is a consideration.
I think to rely on genes to see them through life is asking a lot.

I think that any diet fad is not necessary. Sensible eating habits and physical excercise is important.   I don't think you have to wear your dietary habits on your chest like a button. Also, I think
it's really stupid to crow about bad eating habits. Kinda' like
bungee jumping with a standard rope.

Being a vegan is not a fad. It's a sensible way to go if you
do the homework and realize just what nutritional elements
need to be met. It's not about just eating veggies but about how you go about implementing your diet with a wide assortment of veggies.
In short, if you do the homework and recognize what you are
taking into your system and what effect it has on your health, you are doing yourself a real service.

As to the moral aspects of this, there are those who think little of animal life and it's reflected in their attitudes. There are those
who get off on abusing animals and this carries over into their
human relationships.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 12:22 PM

Heya, Frank: I don't have any buttons that announce my diet, either. And I'm with you... our good health is a gift, and as such, should be taken care of. How we take care of it is a matter of choice, but no one is going to disagree that physical excercise is good for you, or that not eating anything in excess is, either. Some folks would argue that it's better to enjoy the moment and To Hell with the future.

The bill always has to be paid, later. And some people don't mind paying it.

If vegans are seriously concerned about their health, then is it safe to assume that none of them are smokers? A smoking vegan sounds like an Olympic level contradiction.

True, there are people who get off on abusing animals. I can think of two I've met in my whole life, right off the top of my head. I've also met people who fall completely apart if they see a dead racoon on the side of the road, who wouldn't be nearly as upset if it was a person..

No way of life has a monopoly on creeps.

I'm an omnivore, if anyone should be interested enough to ask. I wouldn't start a thread on omnivores, though..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:07 PM

Jerry,

Smoking is one of the most destructive things a person can do to
his/her body. A vegan would probably know better. Never met
a smoking one.

I can't see how a person would react negatively to a dead raccoon and not to a hapless human. But I guess it takes all kinds.

One of the things that I think important to this thread is
information. There is a certain way of thinking that everyone
will react differently to their food intake. But if you read
labels, you can see how shopping in the middle aisle of your
local supermarket might be detrimental to your health.

Also, the chemicals that go into meat and poultry these days are
something to be considered along with the mercury found in fish.
Remember that the meat-packers and the dairy industry are powerful
lobbyists and have influenced or rather hypnotized many consumers.

As a musician, I feel as though I need to be in training as an
athlete. Any lifestyle that is healthful keeps me in the profession.
Some choose drugs.

You're right about the price. Why should musicians die off at early ages when they could be enjoying their music into their nineties and beyond?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:36 PM

GUEST Frank said, in part:

But if you read labels, you can see how shopping in the middle aisle of your local supermarket might be detrimental to your health.

What's magic about the middle aisle?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 06:30 PM

The beer, fruit and vegetable and the bakery aisles are on the sides, Dave..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 06:59 PM

Can vegans ride horses? Or play fetch with dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM

I've found this thread very interesting... and it seems like the terms vegan and vegetarian mean quite different things. I have a son who is a vegetarian but not a vegan, as it seems to be described here. There seem to be many different reasons for being a vegetarian, and a gradation from vegans who won't wear wool sweaters (because the sheep will get cold?) to people who are mostly vegetarians, but will eat lasagna with ground beef in it (or vegetarians who will sometimes eat fish or chicken.) Some refrain from eating meat for health reasons, and some because they are opposed to the killing of animals. You can read literature supporting vegetarianism as the healthiest way to live, and literature that questions how healthy it really is.

Seems to me like if you realllllly want to live a long life, you should have a steady diet of yogurt or whale blubber.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 09:58 AM

Jerry, if you can combine that with an inordinate amount of physical excercise...if you are referring to Afghans and Eskimos. But
there is a vegan tribe in Mexico, the Tarahumara who live to old ages and they run sometimes a 100 miles a day.

Anyway, it's not the amount of life you live, it's the quality.
This can be maintained by a good diet and exercise program. If you are in good health, no problem. Eat what you like. Except those that eat what they like without regard to their intake are not
usually in good health.

Maybe the Vegan diet isn't for everyone. There's a psychological component to eating as well and a lot of this is cultural conditiong.
But it works if you do the homework and want to remain healthy.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:42 AM

Uh, Frank, "it's not the amount of life you live, it's the quality". I'm in favour of lots of each.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:45 PM

This is why I can't take these kind of people serious...

Santa's Not Coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:13 PM

Guest, Frank,   "...and they run sometimes a 100 miles a day..."


With all due respect... f##ck off! You're having a piss.    ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:58 PM

With equally due respect Cluin, do the research before making a pronouncment based on ignorance.

What kind of people would they be Clinton? I'm always interested in why opinionated statements are made about people that one doesn't agree with.

Brucie, vegans and vegetarians can have a fine quality of life.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:07 PM

GUEST Frank said:
But if you read labels, you can see how shopping in the middle aisle of your local supermarket might be detrimental to your health.

And I said:
"What's magic about the middle aisle?"

And Jerry Rasmussen said:
The beer, fruit and vegetable and the bakery aisles are on the sides, Dave..

You should shop where I shop. Beer is smack-dab in the middle, so evidently it's healthy to shop in the middle.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:17 PM

" I'm always interested in why opinionated statements are made about people that one doesn't agree with."

Maybe cause it's just a joke Frank...

d'uh...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:30 PM

Yep, Clinton is right. So was Jerry several times above.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:35 PM

Frank: Please don't pretend to 'inform' me about the benefits of vegetarianism. Did it for two and a half years. I felt great. Presently, I eat some meat. I still feel great. Thanks for your concern, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 03:43 PM

Oh and Frank, the Tarahumara aren't a Vegan tribe. Many of them raise livestock and further supplement their diet with wild game. And a few of them participating in the odd 100 mile marathon (along with a lot of other non-Tarahumara), doesn't mean they all "run sometimes a 100 miles a day".

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:37 PM

That 100 mile marathon: I've done that in about one hour. Was driving an ambulance at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:58 PM

Cluin, get back to you on that about the Tarahumara. Maybe I need to research it a little more. My understanding is that they ate little if any meat at all and this is why they were able to traverse long distances.

Didn't realize that they ate wild game and livestock. This possibly might be a recent trend. I had read that their dietary habits and decreased their abilities as they adopted an omnivorous diet.

I suspect that their athletic prowess may have been compromised by
giving up a vegan diet.



Clinton, sorry but sometimes I confuse a joke for a put-down.

Brucie, I wouldn't dream of informing you about anything.
One question, though. If vegetarianism is so great how come you gave it up?

Watch out for those big macs. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:11 PM

"If vegetarianism is so great how come you gave it up?"

"Cause eggplant tastes like eggplant, but meat tastes like murder, and murder tastes pretty f#ckin' good!"

-Dennis Leary-

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:38 PM

Cluin,

Here's what I found about the Tarahumara.

Some apparently have an omnivorous diet but many are vegans. Corn, beans, potatoes and other veggie crops. Perhaps not every Tarahumara runs 100 miles a day but many do. And guess what gives them the athletic facility to do this? A simple diet, mainly vegan. It probably means some may eat small amounts of meat. Not all are vegans but some and I would guess that most are.


Copyright © 1993-2003,
Mexico Online ®

The Tarahumara Indians
The Tarahumara or Raramuri, as they call themselves, inhabit the Copper Canyon, as it is known in the U.S., or the Sierra Tarahumara in northwest Mexico. The actual name Tarahumara was what the first Spanish called these Native American people.
The Spanish originally encountered the Tarahumara throughout Chihuahua upon arrival in the 1500's, but as the Spanish encroached on their civilization the shy and private Tarahumara retreated for the nearly inaccessible canyons of the Sierra Tarahumara. Only the Jesuit missionaries followed at first and with only scattered success.

After mineral wealth was discovered in the mountains, many areas where Tarahumara Indians lived became desirable lands to the miners & mining companies forcing the Tarahumara once again to head farther into the remote canyons. Today, the Tarahumara are Mexico's second largest native Indian group with between 50,000 & 70,000 people.

Today the Tarahumara live in caves, under cliffs and in small wood and stone cabins in remote areas. They live a simple life undisturbed by modern technologies.

They are known as a quiet and considerate people who are expert farmers and runners. Rarámuri has been translated to mean "runners" in their native language. Due to severe drought in northern Mexico, the Tarahumara have suffered famine in the past few years.

Corn is the main staple along with beans. Potatoes, and apples can also be found. Some Tarahumara raise domesticated animals such as goats and cattle. Fish, small game & herbs (a Tarahumara speciality) round out their diet.

Traditional clothing for the Tarahumara consists of a white cloth shirt, sometimes with colorful prints, white cloth pants or wraparounds with colorful belts or accessories. Headbands of cloth usually red are worn upon the head. Sandals or huaraches are the footwear of choice.

Running is what the Tarahumara may be most legendary for in the world. Relief and various organizations have entered Tarahumara runners into events such as the "Leadville 100-Mile" in Colorado. The runners have surprised many by running in their tire-soled sandals and winning some of the these long distance races.

Running or "foot throwing" has always been a tradition and necessity of the Tarahumara. It is their only mode of transportation and many of the small communities are far apart. They also have their own events, and this is were "foot throwing" comes into effect. It is a competition known as Rarjíparo and consists of a small wooden ball which is "thrown by the foot" by teams in race to finish before the other teams. The races can last days. The Tarahumara are very religious and desire their privacy and respect if you should happen unto their festivals. Two larger events are Semana Santa (Easter Week) and the Fiesta Guadalupana in December. These religious rites are a mixture of Christian and Tarahumara beliefs.

There are also other times of celebrations, such as harvests, which are interwoven with tesgüino. It is an alcoholic beverage made of corn and grasses that is good only for a couple of days after it is brewed. Natives will drink until passed out in some cases.

The Mexican Government recommends asking for permission when taking photos, entering accommodations or crossing Tarahumara land. Respect all celebrations as well as rights to privacy by these proud, but quiet people.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:45 PM

I see nothing there that suggests that "many" run 100 miles a day...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:52 PM

Also, there are different kind of vegans. (Sorry Brucie, didn't mean to inform you specificaly) but some are raw foodists. They don't cook their veggies. They are sometimes known as living food vegans. They believe that cooking destroys (kills) the enzymes in the veggies. I'm one of those who departs from this from time to time but for the most part I'm a raw vegan.

It's a life-style choice. It takes reconditioning eating habits.
Since this thread is on the subject of vegans, I think that it's ok to make this information available to those on the list who might not know about this.

It will not make you holier or better than anyone else however.
But it might prolong the quality of life.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:47 PM

I seem to have become one without intending to. I choose to not eat meat because I don't enjoy it. I love dairy products, and I enjoy eating eggs and products made with dairy products and/or eggs. But I can't eat dairy products or eggs because they make me very sick.

Mmmmmm...cheese...mmmmm

(I miss cheese... )

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:40 AM

Frank: Inform me as much as you want. I like your posts, but I wander in and out of non-meat, meat, ova/dairy, foodless and mixed diets. I just eat what's there, and when it ain't, I don't. I didn't say I thought vegetarianism was great. I said I felt great when I was a vegetarian, and I feel great now as a non-vegetarian meat-eating guy. When I was a vegetarian, I extolled the virtues of it. Some Montreal friends threatened to break my knees if I didn't shut up about it, so I quietly moved over to a diet with meat in it. It saved my knees. You totally vegetarian? (No dairy, eggs, etc?)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 11:55 AM

" I just eat what's there"

Hey... me too... I call it being an "opportunivore"

heh

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:14 PM

Yeah, Clinton: The seafood diet--see food and eat it. I really make the cat nervous, and the fish aren't lookin' too happy right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:28 PM

Hi Ethereal Purple,

I want to commend you for having the courage to bring up this
thread. As you have been able to tell, there's a lot of uninformed comments and feeble attempts at humor to deride those who choose a vegetarian or vegan diet. But I am convinced that those who do
this are basically afraid to think out of their box on this issue.   And many cling to their beliefs out of psychological and addictive needs.

There are some great books on this subject. John Robbins has
written one called "May All Be Fed" which gives a great insight
into the reasons for vegetarianism and veganism. Avon Books.
ISBN 0-380-71901-0. Gabriel Cousins has written some great books
as well.

In place of the Atkins diet, I would recommend that you read Dr. McDougall's book on a healthy diet. "The McDougall Plan" is a good introductory one. New Win Publishing, Inc. ISBN 0-8329-0392-2.

We have moved on from cooked foods to Living and Raw foods and there's quite a bit of good info on the net if you Google it.
www.living-foods.com

I agree with you that heartless treatment of animals carries over into human relationships. A vegan and vegetarian diet opens up
a respect for living beings and sensitivity to others in the
human world. I don't agree that those who love animals prefer this
to loving people. If you don't love animals, you can't really love people

I don't think you're going to find any furthur useful information
from anyone on this thread. But again, I congratulate you on your quest and stay the course because it's a great way to live.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:32 PM

Opportunivore! Hahahahahaha!!!!! I like that!

Frank, isn't it true that there are certain nutrients - some of the B vitamins, for instance - that are only present in animal products?

My theory is that a lot of us eat what our ancestors ate. Mine nearly all came from Europe: Germany, Holland, France, Britain. Meat eaters. If I go too long without meat, I begin to crave it. I must have a steak. I can say with certainty that I have never, ever craved beans and rice, although I do enjoy eating it from time to time.

Food is a personal choice. I like all kinds. And Frank, if you came to my house to eat, I'd fix up a yummy vegan meal. How about some brown rice with stir-fried vegetables?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM

I haven't checked in here for a while now... but thanks, Frank. You seem really committed to veganism - that's brilliant. lol - I think I'm now quite used to the feeble attempts at humour (some, unfortunately, aren't so feeble - that's when I resent them *grin*)... and I don't mind them so much :-).
Earlier I used to try to *convert* people to vegetarianism, because I thought it wasn't *right* to kill animals, and an animal life should be as sacred as a human being's. And although I'm still confused about that part of it all, I've given up the *converting*. Whatever I may feel, I can't change other people. And maybe it isn't in anyone's hands to change anything... and there's no *right* or *wrong*. So now I eat what I want... and let people eat what they want. I do believe that people should at least be informed about their food, though... because some have absolutely NO idea about what goes into it (and in India especially, this IS a big deal!). But I've realsied that there's almost NEVER any point in arguing. It's only fun sometimes :-).

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:56 AM

Agreed, EP. It's all meant in fun. No intent to offend. In the end we're all left with our choices. And the respect of each other's.

Good things said on both "sides" here. I think it's a worthwhile thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:22 AM

It is a nice warm fuzzy thought to say that people who don't eat meat are nicer people, but unfortunately that is just a genrealisation - and as we know, all generalisations are not true except for this one. Some people I have met have stopped eating meat, except for that part of the animal they seemed to have turned into...

The Fooles Troupe...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:48 AM

C'mon Frank.. "those who make feeble attempts at humor... cling to their beliefs out of psychological and addictive needs?" I'm sure that people can go overboard and be offensive, but that's a pretty pathetic generalization to make of people who kid around about vegetarians. I'm not taking it personally, though, because I don't often kid around about vegetarians (unless they get ponderously serious about THEIR beliefs) It's not even a topic I ever discuss even though I have a vegetarian son.

I sing in a black Men's chorus and quartet, and many of the guys kid around about being black, and my being white. I personally think they can kid around, and perhaps make feeble attempts at humor just because they are comfortable enough with themselves that they don't have any "psychological and addictive needs."

We're just funning in here, Frank..

Jerry