Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Grab
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM

Pete, you missed the obvious "Don't get married girls".

Thomas, is the question about the themes of songs, or about the people playing those songs today?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

You're right there Uncle Dave. Both in the word and the sentiment.

However I think that the word I supplied was probably what the questioner was looking for - not really an opposite, but an equivalent for the opposite sex..

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

Anything that stirs deep emotional feeling in people (and romance certainly does that) will result in songs about the times when those emotions go hostile, won't it? There have always been such songs and probably always will be.

Add to this another factor: There was a sort of romantic fantasy concept woven into European culture about tragic love affairs that ended in violence or death. It was considered VERY dramatic and romantic. Hence, people wrote scads of such songs, appealing to their own sense of drama and that of their audiences, and fitting the mood of the times. Clearly, their audiences liked those songs, and I suspect that both males and females liked them, generally speaking.

The Japanese were even more inclined to romantic (and other) tragedies, ending in the miserable or heroic death of all key characters.

Love and Death remain very moving themes, great for stories, as Woody Allen pointed out in one of his movie titles.

To simply view this through the prejudices of a present day political stance is a bit lunkheaded, in my opinion.

Men get upset with women because they care deeply about them. Ditto for the other way around. It's a case of the greatest expectations running headlong into the vagaries of unpredictable fortune, getting angry or sad about it, and writing a song.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:20 PM

Courtesy of Open Mike and McGrath:

"what is the opposite of misogyny? "Misandry"

The "other opposite" is philogyny, to which I plead guilty.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:37 PM

Open Mike, you aren't the first to pair Risselty-Rosselty and Equinoxial. . . Pete Seeger did this over 50 years ago on a long-cherished Folkways record. GOod idea, though.

can remember the night before two (musician) friends got married (still together, approaching 9 years now) singing all the songs I know that were misognyist; had only two that warned women to beware (Blind Alfred Reed's Beware O Take Care) and Equinoxial. . .

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM

"what is the opposite of misogyny? "Misandry" - and though you don't hear the word that often, there are plenty of songs that exhibit it.And good songs too. For example .

Traditionally women and men until recent generations tended to have separate cultures in many ways, and often largely separate song traditions. That is reflected in the songs.

Whether the revival folk world is more sexist or less sexist than the world around it I'm not sure. I'd suspect the latter currently, in England anyway. And that is reflected in the fact that in my experience people feel at ease singing and listening to good songs which are either misogynist or misandrist. Airbrushing that kind of stuff from the past is no way to deal with it.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:50 PM

TTR, thinking the same question about proverbs, which often have misogyny but seldom negativity about the male gender, I realized that proverbs spoken by and for Men were much more likely to survive through being written down and/or printed than proverbs spoken by and for women. We may have the same thing going on with trad. songs; there may have been more songs with women's perspectives which simply did not survive because many more of the primary mediators of the culture (folklore collectors, scribes, printers, etc)were male.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:39 PM

History repeats itself because historians repeat each other! (Don't know who said it.)

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:49 PM

i often sing an old song
that i got off of a 78 at
the family home stead--
Nickety Nackity-
i love the rhythm of the
chorus but not so much the
contect of the lyrics.

I would like to learn the
song Equinoxial, which
would be a great counter
part balance as in it the
woman goes aout and plows
the field and does the man's
work successfully, but he has
a heck of a time trying to do
her chores...ends up with the
cow on the roof, and a bunch
of mishaps. Equinoctial and Phoebe

there is a SLIGHT chance that is
reversing the pendullum and still
including slurs against the opposite
sex, but it does add some balance.
One version I recall had him tie
the cow to his leg and somehow the
cow falls off the roof and he is
hanging by his leg with the tether
rop leading up the chimney or some
nonesense like that when she gets home.

what is the opposite of misogyny?
not good i guess to react with more
vengefullness...the cycle continues..
i still want to learn that song.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: GUEST,ttr
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM

Thanks harpgirl, and a fine bunch ye all are! This question is not meant to stir up controversy, though it might, but is representitve of a conflict I am having in my own little mind...

Simply stated, I have had it up to my eye teeth with negativity and war and violence and agression and the self exonerating connection between garbage in, and garbage out.

Thusly stated I would like to propose a self declared need for transcendence of the 'justification' for clinging to antiquated forms of lousy interrelationships... and I'm wondering out loud if our consistant focus upon bad behavior and drama isn't at least partially responsible... especially when you consider how far we've come...

End of Rant... ttr

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:55 PM

I think Peg and others have answered the first question well - misogyny is prevalent in traditional music because misogyny was a prevalent attitude in the "olden days." So was racism, and it's easy to find old songs that express racist and misogynist attitudes.

I suppose people sometimes sing songs with outdated attitudes because they're good songs - and I'm sure that many good songs will be lost because they include attitudes that are no longer acceptable. I suppose we sometimes sing songs with outdated attitudes out of a healthy naughtiness, and I suppose some some people cling to some such songs out of true hatefulness.

I sometimes like to sing Flowers on the Wall and remember the pleasures of smoking cigarettes, but I stay away from the misogynist songs and tiptoe around the racism in Stephen Foster's songs while trying to avoid Bowdlerism.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:13 PM

Popular song reflects the attitudes prevalent at the time it was made. A very simple answer; but then, I don't really see the point of asking the question. An equivalent question might be, "Why does Shakespeare use so many old-fashioned words?" The answers lie in the context of the material, to which the political and social attitudes that prevail today are irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, you were to ask why these things still appeal to us now, there would be some scope for useful discussion, perhaps; but even then I doubt if there would be much to say that hasn't already been quite well covered.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:52 PM

Love of war outdated? Don't think so. The killing goes on.
The war between men and women? Covered over with PC behavior, but ever present.
Violence attracts interest- just look at the popular computer games and cinema.

About trad as a whole, I agree with Rich and Dee. It is all there.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Peg
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:51 PM

well, this may be a reductionist view, but don't most traditional songs hearken back to "the good old days?" In other words, there is an historical setting and context to many of these stories, and, well, prior to the mid-20th century, women were viewed as second-class citizens...

That explains the presence of misogyny in the song texts. But not the way women performers/fans are treated in the community. I don't have any answers for that, except that it's a microcorsm of the rest   of our culture.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: GUEST,rich_and_dee
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM

Not sure I really understand the question.

Traditional songs reflect the entire spectrum of human experience. There are songs showing great care and tenderness towards one's beloved and there are songs about playing the cuckold.

There are also songs about Christ's love and there are songs about the farmer's daughter.

Where you have songs emerging from oral story-telling traditions I would surely expect to hear diverse stories being told.

Not many successful stories have a boy-meets-girl-and-everyone's-just-ducky-about-it theme. That's not drama. That's an NSync album.

If you're asking why is there bad behavior in the world, that's move that to a theology forum.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:40 PM

I was going to post "The Ten Dollar Bill" from the DT as my answer to this query but I can't seem to find it!!!!

Thomas, I know you to be a sincere and caring man. What prompted this question, since it is bound to stir up controversy? love, harpgirl

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: SueB
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

Is misogyny prevalent in trad? Can you give examples?

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

An overload of testosterone without corresponding active brain cells.

:)

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM

One might also ask why love of warfare is so prevalent in trad, or xenophobia/racism, or any such long-held human attitude that has only become outdated within the last century or so.

A subculture built around interest in the past, or (at least) in long-established and deep-rooted cultural expressions, is not going to reflect values that have only emerged in recent years, since the world has become so much smaller so quickly.

Our current ideas of feminism, universal brotherhood, etc., were unimaginable to our forebearers of just two or three generations ago, so we can hardly expect such enlightened values to be reflected in centuries-old ballads, etc.

Subject: RE: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:54 AM

Maybe it's not always a case of misogyny. All good literature and music comes from conflict -- if the protagonist is male and love/lust/cohabitation is the theme, the antagonist is bound to be female. The hatred/vengeful feelings toward A woman don't necessarily translate to hatred OF women generally.

On the other hand, maybe it's just that we men are insecure about our inferiority.

Subject: Why is misogyny so prevalent in trad?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM

Because it acts as a form of justification... and consequently a convenient excuse for violence and macho behavior? And how does our need to evolve into social equality stand a chance with so much energy and time being put into adorning and preserving misogenystic lifestyles? Hmmmmm?

All the Best! ttr